So enlist, or STFU.

The whole concept of “rights as a citizen”, by definition, limits freedom. The whole idea really amounts to putting legs on a snake. Unless, of course, your plan is to rule with absolute power.

Wake up.

This goes against everything I was taught that the US stands for, both in word and in spirit. Torture is used by evil men, dictators, psychopaths. Is that what the US wishes to be?

“So according to the ABC news story, torture does indeed work and deliver valuable, timely information that has disrupted enemy attacks and saved lives.”

Is he telling the truth?

Devilstower
“It’s hard to see Kiriakou’s story as anything but an attempt to redeem the use of waterboarding, and other forms of torture, as effective means of interrogation. After all, say torture supporters, why would people keep using torture if it doesn’t work?”

“Why? Because it’s satisfying, that’s why. Because when you have someone who you think is a bad guy in front of you, someone you think is scum, you don’t want to befriend them. You don’t want to feed them and give them some damn mat to pray on. You want to hurt them. And then hurt them some more. People want torture to be effective for the same reason that people endlessly sift statistics for some sign that capital punishment is effective. Because vengeance is fun.”

Transcript of interview with CIA officer, John Kiriakou (PDF) part 1 and part 2

What one finds after reading this is (1) Kiriakou never witnessed the waterboarding. It was carried out by another group of individuals. (2) None of the information provided by Zubaydah concerned threats inside the United States. The bigger question becomes “is Kiriakou telling the truth?” How would we know? The tapes that would show if he is or not have already been destroyed.

Waterboarding is torture as defined in the Convention Against Torture & Other Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. The US is a signatory to this convention which defines torture as:

“. . . any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.”

Article 2 – No Exceptional Circumstances Warranting Torture
Article 3 – No State Party shall expel, return (”refouler”) or extradite a person to another State where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture.
Article 4 – Acts of Torture Are Criminal Offenses
Article 10 – Education & Information Regarding Prohibition on Torture Provided in Training
Article 16 – Each State to Prevent Acts of Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment

George Bush has committed war crimes.

Arkady Renko: Too many people in our society disappear. They fall into a gulf.
Professor Andreev: What sort of gulf?
Arkady Renko: The gulf between what is said and what is done.

The Hindus have another saying:

What you hate, you become.

Arkady Renko: Too many people in our society disappear. They fall into a gulf.
Professor Andreev: What sort of gulf?
Arkady Renko: The gulf between what is said and what is done.

The Hindus have another saying:

What you hate, you become.

How can anyone see these goings on as a positive thing for either America’s image or America’s security? How many more victims of this inhumanity do we have to hear of before we realize that we are the enemy?

I wish it would end, Cory. And, I wish I didn’t have to live in a nation so evil, so gutless and so foolish. This is not my America, and I sure as hell can’t imagine anyone with even an ounce of humanity who could say honestly that they are proud of this nation.

We should be ashamed.

What are you guys, some sort of Christian Science sci-fi anarchists? And what’s with the muppets? Is this a language only your twin understands, or what?

“And all we can do is state our position on the matter. What else is there we can do?”

Do us all a favor and become armed revolutionaries, or anarchist terrorists, or whatever, because that is what someone who really, truly believes what you say you believe should do.

Just please stop with the dire apocalyptic mutterings about what slaves we are and how we are being run by Masonic alien overlords, or whatever.

I actually prefer Realcatholicmen, who, although he’s always wrong, and an amoral apologist for torturers and therefore dictators, at least makes a coherent argument.

pthy bcs tlkng bt t s sy. Dng smthng bt t s hrd. Wh hr wnts t nlst n th C? Wh wnts t rn fr cngrss? Ths r th bst wys t fx prblm: frm th nsd t. Fw ppl fl strngly ngh tht thy wnt t gv p n thr crrnt lfstyl t g nvlv thmslvs n rl ntrvntn.

nd th dsblf, frnkly, cms frm th pr trck rcrd whn t cms t ccrcy n lt f lbrl vs cnsrvtv typ sss. Th wrdng sd n th clssfd dcmnt stry s n xmpl — s f ll clssfd dcmnts wr drty scrts tht ndd t b shrddd. Ths n th knw rlz tht mst clssfd dcmnts r ncrdbly brng stff. f y typ “Hll, mm” n clssfd cmptr nd prnt t t, tht dcmnt s, by dflt, clssfd, nd mst b thr d-clssfd r shrddd.

r th whl Wlt Dsny stry whl bck, whr th stry ws tht WD stl th Mcky Ms dsgn nd drv th rgnl crtr nt th grnd, bt PBS dcmntry dsprvd th whl stry.

r th stry bt hw th R sys t’s llgl t rp CDs — xcpt tht f y ctlly rd th cs, wht thy SD ws t ws llgl t rp CDs nd thn shr t th cntnts vr Kz.

Frnkly, th cnsstnt xggrtns md by th lft rn thr crdblty. Th Dsny stry ws wrng. Th R stry ws wrng. Th shrddng stry s rddld wth slly, xggrtd wrdng. Hw m sppsd t gt p n rms vr th stry f Mhmd Frg hmd Bshmlh? fl lk f wt 3 dys nd cm bck t ths tpc, smn wll hv fnd PBS dcmntry tht prvs h ws lyng bt th whl thng.

Bfr cn gt p n rms bt t, ‘ll nd t d sm f my wn rsrch.

Likewise, your statement about shredding — the story is that shredding budgets are rising at an unprecedented rate. You dismissed this by saying “Shredding isn’t sinister.” But you missed the point — that shredding is *increasing* at an unprecedented rate.

As to Walt and Mickey — Ub Iwerks createdt he modern Mickey Mouse while working for Walt. Walt’s originalo Mortimer/Mickey bears only a mild resemblance to the mouse that achieved commercial success.

Good point, RCM. Thank God for the right-wing blogs, which never exaggerate nothin’.

To take your complaints one at a time:

where did you get the Christian Science bit?

The word “Muppet” has been used before, hasn’t it? You can’t have missed it !

What makes you think i need to be told what to do with my so-called beliefs?

“make war with ideas, not with men”

And who said anything about alien overlords? The Masons are (just about) human. Perhaps they do unconsciously serve other-dimensional entities such as the Archons described by the Gnostics, but that’s not so relevant.

Jst sk yrslf why y r bthrd by my psts mr thn by th psts f ths wh dvct wr nd trtr?

Language is a tool that can be put to creative use, and a weapon, but only the lesser minds take it 100% literally and proceed to apply it through violent acts.

Anyway, violence by itself will not resolve this situation, and terrorism (of all colours) has historically been exploited by fascists to justify repression.

Restriction of our freedom and delimitation of our possibility is embedded in our very language which conditions our thought, and so it is my predicament to subvert that language . Guanatanamo is the logical progression from “Freedom is not free” which is a word-virus.

You are welcome to your old-school conservative concepts of coherency. I am not here to argue, and this ain’t something that will ever be resolved by argument of the kind you see on CNN.

Please do not betray us now that we have almost completely pwned the pro-war dupes!

Frankly, I don’t think you’re a real man at all.

What few people here to realize is that “Those Crazy Muslim Fundamentalists” are REALLY angry about activities the US government has been doing on ‘our behalf’.

Iran is a good example: We deposed their democratically elected leader Mohammed Mosadej (we admit this, by the way), installed a terrible despot, supported Sadam (who tried to invade Iran and killed 2 million of them), and now we occupy two contries that are adjacent to Iran.

HELLO? Can you see why the Iranians might not like us? And so and and so forth for decades now in the middle east.

MUSLIM FUNDAMENTALISM IS A ‘NATURAL’ DEFENSE AGAINST THE INTEFERENCE OF THE US AND SOME OF ITS ALLIES. It would never have gained ground unless people felt no need for it.

And now we assume that simply because there are individuals that oppose us, that we ipso facto have the right to toture them?

Look, no one who tortures believe they are doing evil. They torture because there’s no consideration in their minds that someone may WANT to oppose them for good reasons.

WAKE THE F UP. This will neve get better unless we take back our country from those disgusting savages, who launch pointless wars in order to pump our Blue state tax dollars into the hillybilly ‘gimmee’ states.

That’s right. You’re here to monologue, and post bad poetry.

This is a discussion forum. If you want to post monologues, I suggest you create your own blog.

All the time I was growing up, I was impressed by how readily the “jocks” or jerks in general would take the weak, disenfranchised kid out someplace and beat the bajeebas out of him for some lame excuse–really, just to take out their own fears and frustrations. Nobody in school saw that as a norm except those who had to deal with it.

I thought I would be glad to be an adult, when that crap was over with. But it didn’t change. It just shifted a bit.

Maybe there is some “revenge of the nerds” in adult life. And there may be some transformation of thuggery into coercive manipulation and “middle management.” And all to many who were victims in school seem to be out to be perpetrators in adult life.

The thugs haven’t had any sort of epiphany. They remain among us.

To the extent we don’t have a better answer, we let them have power and look away, unless it gets way out of hand, just like we and the faculty did in school.

Drink your Kool-Aid America, drink your Kool-Aid all you fundamentalists, drink your Kool-Aid all you Republicans.

One day, they’ll take your sister, your brother, your father or your mother. But, you probably won’t notice. You’ll be too busy, either playing your video games or going to your second job, so you can pay down your credit card debt.

The summary alone was enough to make me want to bang my head against the wall.

I’m apathetic. About many things.

He was “kidnapped”? Somehow, I imagine his kidnapping involved being caught with a large amount of explosives.

I can’t take any map seriously, where the cardinal direction given is “Mecca”.

I can’t feel any sympathy for a prisoner who attempts suicide and is indignant when his captors save his life.

I really cannot stand that an author would imply, specifically with his choice of words, that preventing a man from starving to death was a bad thing.

no, there shouldn’t be torture, no, there should not be secret prisons… but when you come right down to it, i have to wonder: what does it take to get some impartial views over here?

LL, wht dmcrcy ???

Dmcrcy s smthng prctcd n ncnt thns lng lng tm g. Tdy , t’s jst nthr msk fr fscsm .

Ths wrd, lng wth “cmmnty” mst b th wrs spn wrds f r g.

Th snr ppl strt rlsng ths nstd f pthtclly whmprng bt “dmcrcy” nd nn-xstnt “rghts” , th snr w cld pssbly s sm rl chngs.

Th cn s qt smpl, rlly. t’s ld t n th vrs cnstttns f th s-clld dmcrtc ntns: Tht “ctzns” hv “rghts”, thrby gvng wy th pwr t dfn ths rghts t th wrtrs nd r-wrtrs f sd cnstttns nd thr shdy prtnrs.

s sn s ppl ccptd ths cnstttns , thy hd bn cnnd nt gvng wy thr frdm nd cntrl f thr wn lvs t ppl thy hv nvr ctlly mt. Ths s hw Msnc mgc wrks, by bndng ppl thrgh thr wn wll, wth thr cnsnt.

Th S f strtd s Msnc prjct t crt n rtfcl scty nd cltr f wllng slvs , brnwshd nt chntng “w r fr , w r S fr” whl dng th wrk f thr mstrs, bng pwns n gm thy r cmpltly ncnscs f.

S lt f ppl tdy fnd t hrd t blv tht sch thngs cn hppn n “dmcrcy” , whn n fct by sng tht wrd thy r plyng lng t th wll f thr mppt mstrs.

“FRDM S NT FR” sys n f th S ntnl mnmnts, n hg lttrs. nd th mppts blv tht , nd blv thy hv t fght fr thr frdm. Ths tnnt sys t ll rlly, nd sts th stg fr thngs th Nzs wld b prd f.

f y thnk my rntng s xtrm, myb hv nthr gd lng lk rnd. vr hr w hv dmcrcy, whl ths gns vr thr hvn’t , nd thy nd t b lbrtd , rght?

Myb f w gv thm ll lptps nd n ntrnt cnnctn, th glbl vllg wll bcm rlty nd w’ll ll lv hpply vr ftr, hr hr hr.

http://www.ytb.cm/wtch?v=WLRHHL&ftr=rltd

ywrck!

Oracle: I don’t know the details of the case, either, but I don’t think that every, or even most (not even ‘many’ for that matter) of the detainees have been caught indelicto flagrante (sp?).

Do you prefer “extraordinary rendition” to “kidnapping?” If so, why? (I’m not being sarcastic, I’m just wondering.)

I think maybe you’re misinterpreting the post if you think it’s criticizing them for patching him up after his suicide attempt, or keeping him from starving.

Perhaps you missed that paragraph from the article:

Bashmilah’s story also appears to show in clear terms that he was an innocent man. After 19 months of imprisonment and torment at the hands of the CIA, the agency released him with no explanation, just as he had been imprisoned in the first place. He faced no terrorism charges. He was given no lawyer. He saw no judge. He was simply released, his life shattered.

The internet has not been kind to paranoid schizophrenics.

I can’t feel any sympathy for a prisoner who attempts suicide and is indignant when his captors save his life.

You’ve never been tortured have you? There are some things worse than death.

Whatever sort of wicked, oxymoronic violation of the laws of nature and the Universe an “impartial view” is, if such an unhuman thing were ever to occur, I think it should be destroyed on sight, not studied.

It would likely be some sort of aberrant, self-perpetuating phenomenon capable of destroying everything decent in humanity.

But seriously, the truth is too big to be understood by any human. That why we’re all partial. We have only partial views of the truth.

Most of these so-called “terrorists” have been in Gitmo for several years with no contact with lawyers, representatives or even the Red Cross.

If they are so obviously guilty, let’s put them on trial and convict them and send them to jail or the chair!

If you had come to me and explained this during Carter’s presidency or even Reagan’s, I’d be disbelieving.

No way, that’s crazy talk.

But now, yeah, I consider it completely possible, even probable. And whether or not it actually happened this way, THAT’S a bad place to have gotten to.