Vegetarian survival kit

Discuss

98 Responses to “Vegetarian survival kit”

  1. Santa's Knee says:

    Tim,

    “Theres no point in suddenly believing in a vengeful god that condemns people to hell for the sorts of things i’ve said about him for decades.”

    Who said anything about a vengeful god?

  2. cajunfj40 says:

    @#92 MUJADADDY: Eh? USL ’98 here, transplanted to Denver for $. Comment tallez-vous, cher?

    Je suis bien, merci! (Apologies, French class was many years ago and conjugation of verbs was never my strong point)

    USL? Not a familiar acronym, sorry. “Cajun” was my BBS handle back in the early 90′s, and I’ve held various online identities with that root ever since. Comes from my love of Jambalaya, Crawfish Etoufee, Red Beans and Rice, Gumbo, Po-Boys, all helped along with Tabasco, of course.

    (cajunfj40, finding himself far afield of the topic, tries to think of something relevant to type. Having already done so at #91, post ends)

    Later,
    -cajun

  3. JohnnyWeird says:

    Bingo?

  4. hungrylens says:

    This thread has been dormant for a while, but I just stumbled upon it.
    What no one has mentioned is that for many vegetarians, after years without eating meat, a sudden influx of animal protein is likely to make their digestive system seriously unhappy…

  5. Teresa Nielsen Hayden / Moderator says:

    JohnnyWeird:

    Correct! — unless you think you can top Takuan’s post, in which case you can do that instead.

    Online Forum Bingo is a useful concept. In some venues where I hang out, the entire assembled multitude would have sung out “BINGO!” when iBarna said “I’m checking out of this thread.”

  6. Dave X says:

    You know, there actually IS a whole website of armed forces members (current and retired) who share their stories of being atheists in foxholes. I’ve even seen photos on there of “atheist” dog tags.

  7. Cpt. Tim says:

    Teresa Nielsen Hayden / Moderator

    1. I didn’t move through the standard vegetarian arguments as far as i saw, i made some helpful and pretty neutral suggestions about eating meat versus not eating meat.

    2. As for religion, I saw a comment thats made a lot that annoys me and i addressed it. The whole thing seemed to sit well for hours and we moved past it before you did the whole disemvoweling thing. All i wanted to do was address the quote, some people responded, i responded back and we moved back to the subject at hand. Slight digression did not kill the conversation.

    I’m sorry, but your level of sensitivity is beyond anything i’ve ever seen from a moderator.
    Blvng n hm f y wnt s yr bsnss, jst dn’t nsst tht d t whnvr ‘m n pnch.”

    Let me translate what i said there: Believing in him if you want is your buisness, just don’t insist that i do too whenever i’m in a pinch.

    Really? REALLY? I know, I know, you’re the decider. But this is some pretty poor deciding. I like you as a poster, but boing boing needs a new moderator. This was not a flame war. You don’t moderate, you simply edit out anything and everything that you don’t like the look of.

  8. Cpt. Tim says:

    f y knw tht smns jst gng t rgrgtt trp y’v ddrssd bfr? why bother?

    Teresa…REALLY? This is just sad. I mean really. The poster was complaining about the same old stuff happening every time. i just asked a reasonable question.

    Are you okay?

  9. mujadaddy says:

    #32 posted by meowdip , January 8, 2008 11:28 AM

    @ mujadaddy (#10)

    “It’s not nice to FuXX0r Mother Nature.”

    Your argument is one of the silliest I have ever heard. It could also be argued that driving a car, flying in a plane and even using a computer are not natural and it would be even easier to argue that they “FuXX0r Mother Nature.” I don’t propose that we stop doing any of those things.

    That’s where you & I differ.

    Also linking to a sketch showing that we have an omnivore’s tooth structure doesn’t really prove that it dangerous to be vegan. In hunter-gatherer societies meat was a rarity. We ate it, but not a lot of it.

    We ate it because we didn’t have a choice in the matter, calorically speaking. Animals are good at concentrating calories in their tissues. It would have been dangerous not to eat it.

    In the kind of disaster being discussed here I would probably have to abandon a strict vegan diet, and I would probably eat meat if I really had to (although I’m not sure I would really have to). I certainly wouldn’t worry about a little whey in bread found in the remains of a grocery store.

    So your choice isn’t really one of morality — rather, it’s one of smugness, bred from comfort?

  10. mujadaddy says:

    I think there are more armed vegans out there than you think. Why do you think we’re on so many DHS/FBI watch lists?

    Because you’re not ingesting the proper amount of free will-sapping hormones?

    And, again, that extreme response may not be realistic if its just the power’s been out for 72 hours. Even in Katrina they weren’t hunting people for food.

    I’m not saying I’m going Micronesian at the first snowfall. I’m saying that I’m not artificially limiting my options.

  11. Cpt. Tim says:

    “Cpt. Tim, it’s only polite to refer to one’s opponent as “regurgitating” if you’re using it as a euphemism for “barf”.

    cute. and wonderful moderation. so this is case of you censoring because you don’t like a word? thats in line with you standard conduct.

    its easy to moderate when you selectively address concerns while changing the post of the person with the issue isn’t it?

  12. h3llc4t says:

    If I’m gonna die in the midst of a collapsing society, it’s damn certain I’m going down with the taste of meat in my mouth.
    10+ years of being a vegetarian has ended just recently for me, and I haven’t looked back, except to look for more bacon.

  13. jimtealiii says:

    Cpt. Tim,

    God condemns people to hell in the same way traffic cops condemn drunk drivers to crashing into trees. It’s kind of your own choice.

  14. ralphleon says:

    @thislemis

    My reasons for veganism center on factory farming. Come the apocalypse, pretty much all the available meat will be free range and organic (aka wild animals). I don’t have any problem with eating such meat, other than I kinda think it’s gross after 10+ years of being a vegan

    As a vegan of about 3 years (and vegetarian for many more) I’ll have to agree with you on this one.

    I’m rather surprised by the quantity of negative comments on vegetarianism (maybe I’m just perceiving them as negative). The world, and its vegetarians, would obviously go through immense changes post-apocalypse; but that’s no reason to trivialize vegetarianism in our current luxury society. There are good arguments for being vegetarian and “meat tastes good” is a rather weak counter-point.

  15. mujadaddy says:

    #86 posted by Teresa Nielsen Hayden / Moderator Author Profile Page, January 9, 2008 8:58 AM

    unless you think you can top Takuan’s post, in which case you can do that instead.

    The purpose of technology is to provide me with stem-cell caviar.

  16. mujadaddy says:

    #41 posted by ralphleon Author Profile Page, January 8, 2008 12:35 PM

    that’s no reason to trivialize vegetarianism in our current luxury society.

    Sr t s, bcs t’s trvl lfstyl.

    There are good arguments for being vegetarian and “meat tastes good” is a rather weak counter-point.

    On the contrary, the enjoyment of food is one of the best things in life, superseded only by crshng yr nms, sng thm drvn bfr y, nd hrng th lmnttns f thr wmn.

  17. Pipenta says:

    About squirrel, I am told it is much better stewed than roasted. I had a friend who claimed she made a dandy squirrel pot pie.

    I’d like to log in as another atheist who has been in some dreadful life-threatening situations. But I’ve never been compelled to eat squirrel. That might just do it.

  18. Georgia Tills says:

    I usually just eat things that are tasty and good for me, which fortunately, tend to run hand in hand. I like some really unhealthy stuff, like fancy high sugar and fat espressos, in addition to too much chocolate. I’ll also like nothing better than to have a tuna sandwich washed down with a can of V8.

    In a crisis, I’ll pretty much eat anything that won’t cause me harm. I live in suburban Canada, but I’m close enough to some wilderness that my survival plan has that in mind.

    Worms, cooked, can be a rich protein source. While I have yet to try that, one of my favourite snacks have been BBQ lavets, the larva of a grain eating beetle, available in packets smaller than a matchbox, and many candy stores.

    Many wild flowers are edible, the most common ones as seen in suburban parks are dandelions, whose flowers can be made into wine, its leaves eaten as a salad green, and its root grounded up to be used in place of coffee.

    Clover are edible, the most common ones you see would be red clover, which could also be used as a yellow dye, and white clovers.

    Violets, particularly the common butterfly/early violet, its flowers are often candied, and its leaves are eaten.

    Tulips have edible flowers and very delicious bulbs, I’ve tried pieces of it once in a Middle Eastern vegetable platter. NEVER confuse tulips with crocuses though, crocuses are poisonous.

    Pine is a very good source of vitamin C, a tea made from boiling its needles were the cure the natives of North America offered to Europeans sick with scurvy.

    Please avoid eating the eggs of unknown birds unless you are absolutely famished. Many species of birds are endangered. I’m addressing this to people too squirmish to eat meat, or too squirmish to kill and butcher a deer, but are willing to eat eggs. For those in an urban environment, if you can get at them, eat the rock pigeons! I’ll cook it throughly first if I were you, but those things are an invasive species in North America, and their droppings are gradually corroding historical buildings and monuments. Eat the Eastern Grey Squirrels too; http://www.island.net/~cclt/invasive.htm

  19. Cpt. Tim says:

    “Gd cndmns ppl t hll n th sm wy trffc cps cndmn drnk drvrs t crshng nt trs. t’s knd f yr wn chc.”

    ths s xctly th knd f thng ‘m tlkng bt. Why wld sddnly blv sm fry tl whn yr nvsbl plcmn hs ppl lk y s slsmn?

    My lf chc f nt blvng n hm nd thrws bng pcfl pn mndd prsn s t y, nlgs t bng drnk drvr, nd yr hly bk dscrbs th pt f fr ‘ll spnd th rst f my xstnc.

    S ys, thr r thsts n fxhls.

    but this is about vegetarian stuff, i just wanted to address the foxhole comment, nt strt dscssn bt th nn xstnc f gd. Blvng n hm f y wnt s yr bsnss, jst dn’t nsst tht d t whnvr ‘m n pnch.

  20. ralphleon says:

    @MUJADADDY

    Sure it is, because it’s a trivial lifestyle.

    Well, how is the troll lifestyle, Mujadaddy? I would suppose ya’ll are mostly carnivorous ;)

  21. gobo says:

    that’s no reason to trivialize vegetarianism in our current luxury society.

    Sr t s, bcs t’s trvl lfstyl.

    There are good arguments for being vegetarian and “meat tastes good” is a rather weak counter-point.

    n th cntrry, th njymnt f fd s n f th bst thngs n lf, sprsdd nly by crshng yr nms, sng thm drvn bfr y, nd hrng th lmnttns f thr wmn.

    Who let the troll in? The one who smells like bacon grease?

  22. elvisneedsboats says:

    I’ll be eating the vegetarians to get my protein source.

  23. SpocksBrain says:

    I’d hazard a guess that the most useful thing a vegetarian could bring in a 5-scale disaster-type scenario would be a willingness to eat meat when available. At that point we’re animals fighting for survival; refusal to do so by any means necessary is a pretty predictable way to Darwin oneself fairly quickly out of the gene pool.

  24. Gilbert Wham says:

    BRRRRRAAAAAAIIINNNNSSSSS!

  25. Valacosa says:

    #To 41

    There are good arguments for being vegetarian and “meat tastes good” is a rather weak counter-point.

    That is an awful statement. It’s as true as this:
    “There are good arguments for being temperate, and ‘beer tastes good’ is a rather weak counter-point.”

    It’s an issue close to home. A prominent Muslim wanted to take our on-campus bars away.

    Some of us want to enjoy life, y’know?

  26. mujadaddy says:

    #45 posted by gobo Author Profile Page, January 8, 2008 12:52 PM

    Who let the troll in? The one who smells like bacon grease?

    What a good argument for vegetarianism! Seriously? A personal hygiene crack?

    Hnstly, vgtrnsm jst bthrs m bcs mst f y r cnvncd tht t mks y bttr thn mnvrs. Life is dumb & difficult enough without having to “worry” about your fuel source.

    mmmmmmmmmmBacon … mmmmmmmm…

  27. Benny Alvarez says:

    @RALPHLEON

    There are good arguments for being vegetarian and
    “meat tastes good” is a rather weak counter-point.

    Yes, that is a weak counterpoint.

    However, in a sustained emergency those of you who have foregone meat will be ill-equipped to deal with a sudden dietary change. Seems to me that this would be the worst time to be ill and feeble because your system is not prepared to deal with your new diet. Better to be prepared while you can live in a “luxury” environment.

  28. Simon Greenwood says:

    spocksbrain@2:

    Exactly so. I’ve been vegetarian for 20+ years but in a disaster situation I would have no issue with eating what is available. Vegetarianism is, for the majority of people, a conscious choice. Being caught in a major disaster isn’t. As there are no atheists in foxholes, there are no vegans in tsunamis.

  29. Cpt. Tim says:

    I’m completely willing to go vegetarian as soon as fake meats are good enough substitutes (and many are, i’ve had some amazing stuff that even resembled meat in texture.) AND widespread enough that i can order it in any restaurant. Being in San Francisco means I’m hoping that happens here faster than other places. In the mean time I don’t feel like a murderer because nature is nature, but if theres substitutes out there that pass the test, then i figure, why not?

    I’ll be ecstatic the day someone slaps down a steak in front of me that can fool me.

  30. Santa's Knee says:

    Cpt. Tim:
    “but this is about vegetarian stuff, i just wanted to address the foxhole comment, nt strt dscssn bt th nn xstnc f gd. Blvng n hm f y wnt s yr bsnss, jst dn’t nsst tht d t whnvr ‘m n pnch.”

    Hm…?

  31. jmullan says:

    Am I the only one to find the ad on that page extra hilarious? “Learn to survive in the kitchen with The Nut Gourmet

    For the record, my nuts are an excellent source of protein.

  32. Dave X says:

    I can see how you desperately need beer and meat to have a good time. I’ll retreat to my cloister now…

  33. Cpt. Tim says:

    Snt’s Kn: Hm/Hr/t. dn’t rlly cr. f y’r syng “Hm?” s sm knd f mscln r fmnn rgmnt y wn’t fnd n wth m, dn’t blv th ntty xsts n th frst plc s dn’t blv t hs tckd r dngly bts t ll.

  34. xopl says:

    My first thought was that this is ridiculous, and in an apocalypse situation if you want to risk your own life by not compromising your vegan values you are a fool.

    But then I thought a little more.

    And sure, I mean there’s always the option of bare handed tackling of wild post-apocalyptic mutant bears, and feasting on their delicious green flesh… but really, after the apocalypse there’s not going to be anybody running the livestock yards, or butchering the animals, or any electricity to preserve whatever product existed before the Big Event.

    So really — regardless of whether you eat delicious, delicious meat or you are one of those people leaving more delicious meat for the rest of us — this article’s advice is actually going to be quite important for everyone.

    We’re all going to want to be aware of the most convenient protein sources. And long-shelf-life beans sounds a lot better than risking a bite from a mutant bear just for a chance at a nice steak.

    Although, if you survived the bite, your newly acquired bear-strength would probably be a useful survival tool.

  35. Axx says:

    I’m with Spocksbrain on this one. This sounds utterly inhuman to me. I’m fascinated that such a web page exists, however….

  36. gobo says:

    Mujadaddy, that wasn’t an argument for vegetarianism, it was a comment about being a bit of a dick.

    There’s lots of reasons people go vegetarian or vegan. Some people definitely do it because it seems trendy and lets them feel extra-special when restaurants are forced to cater to them by customizing meals for their diet. Some do it because they find it’s easier to eat a healthy diet when they restrict their meals to vegetables, grains, and legumes — it’s a simple way to eat low-fat, high-fiber, etc. And some do it because they don’t feel right eating animals (for religious or ethical reasons). Me, I went vegetarian because I just don’t trust the meat that comes out of American factory farms. One too many encounters with salmonella and chicken breasts green on the inside. Don’t want to worry about that crap when I can avoid it.. especially now that there’s BACON SALT!! (which is, yes, vegetarian)

    It’s interesting that in America, vegetarians are largely ridiculed and tolerated with eye-rolling while in the UK it’s treated kind of like eating Kosher is here in the US… as a legitimate dietary choice with some value to it.

  37. Santa's Knee says:

    Tim,

    It’s just that every post you make shows that you have a very biased and christian-centric viewpoint for an agnostic.

    It’s kinda cute.

  38. Dutch101 says:

    Yep, I’ll be the one eating the firearm-less vegan for protein in the event of a natural disaster.

    Seriously though, vegetarianism or veganism are fine personal choices when conditions are optimal. If you have the chutzpah and moral inclination to do it (and aren’t annoying about it to the omnivores in your life) then have at. If, however, you are in a serious survival situation and you choose to turn your nose at the roasted squirrel you have at hand, then you have made your choice about surviving.

    By the way, roasted squirrel isn’t that great, and I wouldn’t recommend it unless you need it to survive.

  39. Liz Burgess says:

    If I were in an apocalyptic situation, I’d certainly be willing to eat meat, but I’d still try to put it off as long as possible. After not eating meat for so many years, it’d make me pretty damn sick. Being alive and sick is better than being dead and eaten, though.

  40. Dave X says:

    I’m always amazed how open-minded folks are on BB, but whenever vegetarianism is mentioned, it just arouses a bunch of chest-thumping “Me like bacon” machismo.

    If you were wrestling cattle to the ground, I could see it– but it’s more likely you’re just waddling over to a butcher counter.

    Historical comments about your ancestor’s need for extra protein aside, there simply aren’t any good reasons to eat meat, especially in our generously provided-for Western culture.

    Frankly, I think James Randi should have given a million-dollar prize to someone who proves Westerners need to keep meat in their diet. Unfortunately, for all his so-called rational thinking, he probably still eats it just because “it tastes yummy”.

  41. plousia says:

    You know, I’m a vegetarian, and if I were in an apocalyptic situation, I’d be eating all the meat I could get my hands on. So would these people, eventually. This article is pure wishful thinking. Vegetarianism is a fine ideal, in a non-emergency situation. In an emergency, I’m pretty sure starvation would trump anyone’s normal eating habits.

  42. kostia says:

    Before doing any serious thinking about what you’d eat and when and under what circumstances, read “The Road” by Cormac McCarthy.

    Even as a longtime fan of postapocalyptic fiction (“The Stand” is a big favorite), it completely changed my outlook on the situation from an individual-survivor standpoint.

    Imagine seven, eight, nine years after the disaster (it’s not clear, but that’s my guess), when nothing–and I mean nothing–has been restocked, rebooted, recreated … and all that’s left is all that’s left.

    You’d eat a lot worse than meat.

  43. Cpt. Tim says:

    The no athiests in foxholes comment pretty much exclusively comes from christians. Thats anecdotal, but you’re right. Most of my knowledge of theology centers around Christianity. Catholic dogma to be specific. From there I’ve covered other denominations, Judaism, Islam, A smattering of cults, and Buddhism. I’m pitifully short on other eastern religions, but hey, i can’t be perfect.

    I don’t believe in any of them. But i generally talk in christian terms because i’m usually talking to christians.

    “It’s kinda cute.”

    Its cute how you called me an agnostic.

  44. calabanos says:

    Well, Mujadaddy

    I find it odd that the first responses to a link designed to help vegetarians prepare for some sort of disaster is to irrationally and aggressively attack the life style. It is a good thing that this type of information is being posted. It will help a lot of people. Too many kids think they can live on french fries and milk shakes.

    I rarely tell people I’m a vegetarian. It always ends up with the kind of crap that came out of this thread. It is strange that people are so threatened and defensive about what others choose to eat (or not eat).

    Eat what you want, I couldn’t care less.

  45. RugerRedhawk says:

    “Historical comments about your ancestor’s need for extra protein aside, there simply aren’t any good reasons to eat meat, especially in our generously provided-for Western culture.”

    What do you propose happens to all the deer I shoot if I stop eating meat?

  46. mujadaddy says:

    Everyone saying that “vegetarianism is a fine ideal” and “vegetarianism or veganism are fine personal choices” is dangerously wrong.

    “It’s not nice to FuXX0r Mother Nature.”

    I for one will be hunting humans when it’s time.

  47. Cpt. Tim says:

    “Frankly, I think James Randi should have given a million-dollar prize to someone who proves Westerners need to keep meat in their diet.”

    so why not offer the million dollar prize for better tasting fake meat? Face it, the garden burgers just don’t cut it. I’ve had good fake meat but its hard to come by. The sooner you get “yummy” alternatives, the sooner you’ll change peoples diets.

    Of course you’ll still have people that insist on eating meat out of the principle that god gave them dominion over the animals and its the red blooded American thing to do. But all you have to do is make the newly invented yummy fake meat as fashionable as that Adkins nonsense and people will branded and selling like crazy.

  48. Dave X says:

    I’m pretty sure they’ll stay dead. What do YOU think will happen to the deer you shoot?

  49. mujadaddy says:

    #52 posted by gobo Author Profile Page, January 8, 2008 1:14 PM I just don’t trust the meat that comes out of American factory farms.

    How is that an argument FOR veg’ing? It’s an argument for raising your own food.

    it’s treated kind of like eating Kosher

    Sprstts mmbjmb dsgnd t kp pr grp hlthy, frtfl nd mltplyng? Yh, gr, xcpt dn’t thnk vgtrns bnd tgthr n ny mnngfl wy wth rspct t rprdctn.

    #54 posted by Dave X Author Profile Page, January 8, 2008 1:21 PM there simply aren’t any good reasons to eat meat, especially in our generously provided-for Western culture.

    Y lt cn brng p th fct tht w’r n lxrs cltr, s w “dn’t nd” mt, bt whn wnt t t t b/c t TSTS GD, sddnly th lxry cltr s prblm. Y’r VgFscsts — vn thgh y dn’t THNK y’r tryng t dctt rls fr thrs t lv by, y btry yr ntr wth phrss lk “rn’t ny gd rsns” nd “rtnl thnkng”…

    Dave X, I’d gladly hunt my own meat, but the “luxury culture” has bought all the hunting grounds (q.v. Robin Hood, c. 1215 AD, et al).

    ‘m always amazed how open-minded folks are on BB

    ‘m lwys mzd tht whn sm ppl s th phrs “pn-mndd” thy mn, “thnks xctly lk d.”

    Going to eat some sardines right now to stand up for my beliefs.

  50. calabanos says:

    So much fear of vegetarians. t smlls f slf lthng.

    Just remember. There will be plenty of bugs to go around.

  51. Blue says:

    I’m a Mostly Vegetarianâ„¢ – I eat a predominantly vegetarian diet but will eat fish very occasionally if I feel a particular need/desire to (also if there’s nothing else available which is rare) – my view is largely: if it’s dead already, where’s the harm (essentially)?

    I wouldn’t, however, kill anything in order to eat it, fish or otherwise, for ethical reasons. The question that then arises for me is not so much about eating whatever animal protein that may be available but of killing any available animals for their protein, and whether I’d be prepared to die rather than take the life of another, if that was my only option.

  52. mujadaddy says:

    Bl: S hrng htmn sn’t mrdr?

    Yr thcs r th thcs f mrn.

  53. iBarna says:

    Ralphleon: “I’m rather surprised by the quantity of negative comments on vegetarianism (maybe I’m just perceiving them as negative).”

    I’m not at all surprised. Lv t t crtn rprsnttvs f th th ll-knwng nrd crwd t pst hgh flng cmmnts bt prtty mch vrythng bt rrly bthrng t ctlly lk p nfrmtn r tryng t ndrstnd sss. nc y pl wy th slf cntrd, psd-scntfc lngg, thr’s lttl sbstnc lft. Wht’s lft s, “t tsts gd” nd “y ppl thnk y’r s mch bttr thn m”. Pthtc. Th rd t nnvtn nd mprvmnt pvd wth slf-mprtnt prclmtns bt hw smthng s stpd d nd hw t wn’t wrk nd hw th stts q shldn’t chng. Clrly, nyn wh clls vgtrn dt lxry s ppsd t mt (whch rqrs mny tms th rsrcs s, sy, sy r grn prdcts), s dldd n thr lttl ccn f wrld — bt hy kd, t’s rl ct hw y fntsz bt gng ll Rmb n s ll whn th bg n hts. Nw hr, hv nthr chp bf jrky frm Sfwy, jst sht p lrdy.

    BTW, this article is about vegetarians preparing for a disaster by assembling an emergency kit, not what anyone would do in a disaster when his/her supplies are gone. Why I should buy meat products for my emergency kit, I have yet to see anyone explain.

  54. cajunfj40 says:

    @#89 MUJADADDY: The purpose of technology is to provide me with stem-cell caviar.

    Zing!

    (Apologies: CAJUNFJ40 is not properly trained in Forum Bingo.)

    And even though IBARNA checked out, and the thread has moved on somewhat:
    @#60 IBARNA: Why I should buy meat products for my emergency kit, I have yet to see anyone explain.

    Here I’m taking the view that the survival kit would be for a prolonged disaster scenario, with attendant breakdowns in food distribution, looting, serious societal unrest, etc.

    One explanation could be that, if you’ve been abstaining from meat and/or meat-related products for long enough your digestive system doesn’t handle it well. (I’ve known a few people who get ill if they ingest even small quantities of meat or meat-related foods unknowingly.) If you stock some meat-derived foods, you can gradually add them to your vegetable-derived foodstocks when you eat them so as to re-gain the ability to digest meat in a controlled fashion. This would seem preferable to being unable to digest a potentially life-saving food source.

    Perhaps technology could allow us to make a non-animal-derived pill or similar long shelf life treatment that one could take to “re-set” the digestive system to be able to digest meat? Something like the enzymes that one can take if one is lactose-intolerant and want to enjoy some dairy products. That could be “better” as one wouldn’t have to take it until right before one really needed to eat meat.

    Later,
    -cajun

  55. Dave X says:

    Not all us vegetarians would go so easy, y hnt-hppy fls. Defending myself would present no ethical issue– I just wouldn’t eat you afterward.

    My dogs might, though.

  56. Dave X says:

    Muja–

    I’m sure there are a lot of things you’d like to do just because they feel good. That doesn’t necessarily make them “right” things to do.

    It doesn’t make me a fascist to point out that you have no rational reason to continue eating meat, and really shows your lack of defensible tactics, considering you’re already using name-calling.

  57. SednaBoo says:

    spocksbrain@2,
    I’d like to think that we wouldn’t all have to turn into “animals fighting for survival.” I’d like to try putting off turning into Gollum from LotR as long as possible if I could.

    Plus the fact remains that 90% of the time stuff in a survival kit would not be used when waiting for the mutant bears to regroup, but more like the power being out long enough for the stuff in the fridge to spoil. I’m hardly wont to revert into a beast just because PG&E can’t get their act together.

    Beyond that, most people buy stuff for their emergency kits before they have reverted to manimals. I’m sure most people here (including vegan me) would resort to cannibalism if all else failed, but I’m hardly going to stock my kit with ‘long pig’ and ‘hairless goat.’

    And I bet most of us don’t even have a emergency stockpile. If this helps, it can’t be too bad, can it?

  58. jmetter says:

    I agree with the other vegetarians who have chimed in here — vegetarianism is an easy choice for me because meat is not necessary for my survival under normal circumstances. Still, like Liz, I’d want to put off succumbing to eating meat.

    But, where’s your line? Would you eat other humans, even just those who already died, like the Donner Party? I love the idea of the possibly apocryphal story of the Donner Party’s Native American guides refusing to eat human flesh, saying “There are fates worse than death,” and disappearing into the forest to die.

  59. Benny Alvarez says:

    DaveX,

    What’s your rational for abandoning meat? What makes completely eliminating a food source “right”? You haven’t heard a valid reason why people need meat; i haven’t heard one why I need to eliminate it from my diet.

    We *DO* in fact live in a luxurious society. I’m sure you have possessions and do things that you don’t strictly strictly need.It’s not reasonable to start limiting your actions based entirely on need. Diogenes lives at the bottom of that slippery slope.

  60. Santa's Knee says:

    There is no fate worse than death for a human being. Anyone who tells you different is trying to sell you something.

  61. Cpt. Tim says:

    “Now here, have another cheap beef jerky from Safeway, just shut up already.”

    iBarna, nothing you’ve said separates yourself from the people you’re complaining about. Would you just rather attack than engage someone like me thats on the other side of the fence, but interested?

  62. thivai says:

    I’m pretty sure that a disaster will not trigger some inner-caveman-warrior powers among the general population. Unless it’s a disaster caused by a meteorite from space, maybe. I think the majority of people will be fighting over Snickers bars from some burned out Exxon and not making bows from sapling trees in order to breakfast on the haunches of roast squirrel. Having some soy milk on hand is a pretty good idea, vegetarian or no.

  63. mujadaddy says:

    #13 posted by Dave X Author Profile Page, January 8, 2008 10:11 AM

    Not all us vegetarians wwould go so easy, y hnt-hppy fls. Defending myself would present no ethical issue– I just wouldn’t eat you afterward.

    My dogs might, though.

    Ooooo, noooo!!! Not the dooooogs!!! However will I Indiana Jones-quickdraw BLAM!! BLAM!! …. Oh yeah.

    #14 posted by SednaBoo Author Profile Page, January 8, 2008 10:13 AM

    And I bet most of us don’t even have a emergency stockpile.

    Y LT r my mrgncy stckpl.

  64. absimiliard says:

    Vegetarianism is fine, in a luxury economy.

    In a survival environment you eat what you can get, or you don’t survive. That’s what a survival environment means.

    Eat what you can find, or stay vegetarian and starve. No difference to me. I plan on being dead in the event of an apocalypse.

    I do have to disagree w. Santa’s Knee though. There are definitely worse things than death. Like the Donner party indian guides I agree cannibalism is one. Perhaps for a vegetarian eating meat would be another, I know it wouldn’t be one for me.

    -abs

  65. mujadaddy says:

    #60 posted by iBarna , January 8, 2008 1:44 PM

    hy kd, t’s rl ct hw y fntsz bt gng ll Rmb n s ll whn th bg n hts.

    Th “gng ll Rmb” s th rspns. “Th bg n” httng s th fntsy.

    jst sht p lrdy.

    N, y sht p. N, y. N, y!

    By the way, luxury is what allows one to choose to be vegan, and the calories provided by meat is what allowed agrarian society in the first place, s yr “lttl ccn” whr y hv chc s th fntsy.

    #61 posted by Dave X, January 8, 2008 1:49 PM

    It doesn’t make me a fascist to point out that you have no rational reason to continue eating meat

    …Ok. So you don’t want to change the behavior of the omnivores in society? Ppl bng pn-mndd s k ntl thy chs t spk gnst vg’ng?

    …the sardines were delicious, by the way.

  66. Santa's Knee says:

    @abs:

    History is written by the living. They will judge.

    What you are doing is trying to sell the idea that social mores are more important than breathing.

    Good luck with that.

  67. mortis says:

    I’m just happy that I live in a country where people have the luxury of deciding what food they put in their bodies…deep-fried or blessed my some earth-mother priestess.

    In case of emergency, however, I’ll dig for tasty grubs, eat roots, or whatever needs to be done. Anyone who says differently will be one less person to hunt/forage against, so I see no problem

    ^m^

  68. anechoic says:

    leave it to bb comments to flip the idiot switch in its readers

  69. jmullan says:

    Well, a wiser fellow than myself once said, sometimes you eat the mutant bear and — much obliged — sometimes the mutant bear well, he eats you.

  70. iBarna says:

    Cpt Tim: “iBarna, nothing you’ve said separates yourself from the people you’re complaining about.”

    I never meant it to be a long treatise, but t lst ddn’t sprd dsnfrmtn nd hlf-trths, in fact I debunked the “vegetarianism is a luxury” argument. Pretty good for a short rant, I would say.

    “Would you just rather attack than engage someone like me thats on the other side of the fence, but interested?”

    Nope. stppd ths pntlss dbts wth strngrs n bscr wbsts lng tm g. You don’t need me to spend hours rehashing these things. If you’re really interested, both the web and your local library are full of information about the (vast) world of vegetarian culture, living, cuisine, research and philosophies. All the arguments “against vegetarianism” you probably could think of have been made and (to me, sufficiently) debunked elsewhere.

    I would doubt that there is an intelligent person who when she puts her mind to it, at least tries to stay fair and open-minded, and really digs into the material, afterwards would still find the nerve to ridicule vegetarianism or decry is as a bad idea.

    The real reason why these modern societies still eat this much meat was nailed by G.B. Shaw: “Custom will reconcile people to any atrocity — and fashion will drive them to acquire any custom.”

    (‘m chckng t f ths thrd.)

  71. xopl says:

    @MORTIS

    On communist post-apocalyptic Earth, radioactive mutant grubs dig for YOU!

  72. mujadaddy says:

    #90 posted by calabanos , January 9, 2008 11:07 AM

    I find it odd that the first responses to a link designed to help vegetarians prepare for some sort of disaster is to irrationally and aggressively attack the life style.

    I was responding directly to the idea that vegetarianism is a “good thing,” not to the article directly.

    To respond to the article directly, I think everyone should have a 3-day disaster kit in their house/apartment/car.

    #91 posted by cajunfj40

    Eh? USL ’98 here, transplanted to Denver for $. Comment tallez-vous, cher?

  73. Simon Greenwood says:

    Hmmm… interesting that people have gone for the ‘atheists in foxholes’ line. Remember that it’s a quote, and also that it is patently untrue. I was trying to make the point that extreme situations often require or lead to exceptional responses. From personal experience I can also say ‘there are no vegetarians in services on the A1 in Northumberland at 3am in the morning when they have run out of cheese sandwiches’ but that doesn’t roll off the tongue as well’.

  74. Cpt. Tim says:

    “You don’t need me to spend hours rehashing these things.”

    f y knw tht smns jst gng t rgrgtt trp y’v ddrssd bfr? why bother?

    Why not talk to someone that was actually interested in talking about it?

    I know you’re checking out, but i would avoid internet comment sections… and really any conversation at all if you’re interested in avoiding rehash.

  75. mujadaddy says:

    #65 posted by iBarna , January 8, 2008 2:23 PM

    I stopped these pointless debates with strangers on obscure websites a long time ago.

    That’s the last straw, sir. BoingBoing is FAR from an obscure site!!!!!!

    I *do* like how you chose to respond to the guy arguing about atheism in the Veggie thread, though.

    in fact I debunked the “vegetarianism is a luxury” argument.

    According to you. What you wrote was:

    Clearly, anyone who calls a vegetarian diet a luxury as opposed to meat (which requires many times the resources as, say, soy or grain products), is deluded in their little cocoon of a world.

    Which by my count is one “clearly,” an ad hominem attack, and a production-input per calorie-output factoid, which, while mathematically true, is taken out of context. Sure, *today* with gasoline & tractors it takes more “resources” to produce meat as opposed to grain. How many “resources” would it take to let deer raise themselves?

    I would doubt that there is an intelligent person who when she puts her mind to it, at least tries to stay fair and open-minded, and really digs into the material, afterwards would still find the nerve to ridicule vegetarianism or decry is as a bad idea.

    Wow. How *do* you manage to walk through doors?

    (I’m checking out of this thread.)

    I know. Too bad you won’t hear me call you a chicken.

  76. WarLord says:

    Greetings

    Couple MRE and a gallon or two of water would be a usefuk add to the “insurance policy” kit for anyone planning to survive.

    Freeze dried chili be a good logical ethical step before a vegan dines on ‘long pig’ ;)

    In survival realism is useful, aint about stockpiles and stuff, it’s about your mind and spirit

    Enjoy the journey

    WarLord

  77. Antinous says:

    Do you realize how horrible most Americans would taste? Fricassee of fast-food eater versus a delicious roast leg of vegan who’s lived only on fruits and vegetables. You vegans are the truffles of the cannibal world.

  78. absimiliard says:

    @Santa’s Knee

    I’m not trying to sell you on anything dude. If I’m dead in a post-apocaplytic world and you’re hungry and nearby, go to town. I’m sure I’m tasty with some chianti and fava beans, and if you’re actually starving I’m sure I’m tasty without them too.

    Eat whomever you want.

    I’ll just decline to join you.

    But it’s a personal decision not an evangalistic exercise on my part. Do what you will, just don’t try to make me do the same.

    -abs

  79. Purly says:

    I think that canned beans go bad faster than the dried ones. Last I checked, dried goya beans are less than $2 so it doesn’t hurt to stock them. And they take up less space than the canned variety. Also stock a basic water filter so you can make water to soak them in.

  80. nezzyidy says:

    For a vegetarian to be worried about survival during an emergency makes about as much sense as a meat-eater being worried about it.

    What doesn’t make sense is why a vegan should intentionally pack meat or dairy into his food stores just because it’s an “emergency situation”.

    Nowhere on the page (if you read it) does it say “Starve yourself to death before eating meat or dairy”. What it does say is that if you are vegan here are some tips to prepare yourself for natural disasters, etc.

    By the way, it didn’t mean “apocalypse” literally.

  81. sweep says:

    It is fairly well established that the move away from a strictly-vegetarian diet was one of the defining changes between the genus Homo, and our ancestors (Australopithecines et al.); the increased energy diet allowed the development of a larger, energy-intensive brain, allowing at the same-time a decrease in the size of other energy-intensive organs (the digestive system).
    Hunting itself may also have been a driving force in the increase in hominid intelligence; you generally need to be smarter to hunt animals than to pick fruit from trees and dig for tubers; it would also no doubt have encouraged the development of language, as well as tool use.
    However, I am not suggesting that modern vegans/vegetarians are ape-men; a modern understanding of human nutritional requirements and what constitutes a healthy balanced diet, combined with today’s wide choice of food-stuffs means that in our society there is no reason why you cannot be vegetarian or vegan and perfectly healthy (although even now I know vegans who are liable to pass out every now and again) The only real excuse for eating meat now is that it is tasty. And it is. I don’t have a problem with meat eating per se; I do however have a big problem with modern farming methods (dairy farming most of all).

  82. SednaBoo says:

    #18 posted by mujadaddy , January 8, 2008 10:19 AM
    “YOU LOT are my emergency stockpile.”

    I think there are more armed vegans out there than you think. Why do you think we’re on so many DHS/FBI watch lists?

    And, again, that extreme response may not be realistic if its just the power’s been out for 72 hours. Even in Katrina they weren’t hunting people for food.

  83. meowdip says:

    @Mujadaddy

    My veganism is a moral choice. However, everyone has the right to survive. I do not think poorly of people in hunter gatherer societies that eat the meat they catch. In our society we can live perfectly healthy lives without having to use animals. So I choose to do my best to minimize the harm my diet does. About the cars and airplanes in my example, I don’t suggest we give them up, but I try to minimize their use.
    Also while meat is a concentrated source of calories it takes a lot more energy to catch it than it does to gather plants. It is inefficient any way you analyze it. And where did you get that the colries from meat were what allowed agrarian society?
    So in the disaster situation I would do what I needed to do for a short time to survive. There are very few realistic scenarios in which we could not fairly quickly reestablish some kind of an agrarian society, in which case vegetarianism and/or veganism would be a perfectly reasonable choice.

  84. Bek says:

    @Antinous

    “Did I say seitan? I meant, spam. I love spam.”

    I think we’ve strayed from the point that was introduced with this entry to something equivalent to meat fanboyism.

  85. ralphleon says:

    @VALACOSA

    Some of us want to enjoy life, y’know?

    I’m sorry but your argument does not make any sense to me (what’s the connection between being temperate and beer?). I wasn’t saying that meat tastes better than all other foods, or that being vegetarian takes all the fun out of life….. Some vegetarian foods (not so much boca burgers, more so eastern dishes) are quite delicious…. and I like to enjoy my life as well :)

  86. Antinous says:

    @Bek

    Will you create a Wikipedia page for “meat fanboy”? Please?

  87. meowdip says:

    Hmm, I may have spoken a little too quickly on the meat NEVER being efficient. After reading a little it appears that for some people in some places at some times it was competitive with plant sources. The !kung have traditionally been heavy on the meat side. What I had heard about before were the societies where meat was less than 20% of the caloric intake. In any case this doesn’t change my argument that I don’t think these societies were evil for eating meat, but now we do have a choice. And now that we know more about nutrition and sources of hard to find nutrients in plants, it would be possible to live in an agrarian, or possibly even gatherer society without meat. In the immediate aftermath of a disaster though there might be a period where this was not reasonable. The more I think about it though, the more I think I could not get myself to eat meat under even these circumstances. Not out of morality though. I still think that killing another animal, or human, for your own survival, if it really comes to that, is okay. Just as it is okay for animals to kill each other or us for their survival.

  88. Cowicide says:

    > As there are no atheists in foxholes,
    > there are no vegans in tsunamis.

    [cow raises hand]

    Uh, atheist in foxhole… right here. Thank you very much.

    I’ve almost died a few times and have been in mortal danger many times and I’ve never, ever in those situations became a coward who begged for my life to an invisible hippy in the sky out of sheer terror. It’s a waste of time and distraction from survival.

    I do pray for sex on occasion, though.

  89. meowdip says:

    @ mujadaddy (#10)

    “It’s not nice to FuXX0r Mother Nature.”

    Your argument is one of the silliest I have ever heard. It could also be argued that driving a car, flying in a plane and even using a computer are not natural and it would be even easier to argue that they “FuXX0r Mother Nature.” I don’t propose that we stop doing any of those things. Although maybe we should try to be more intelligent about all of them.
    Also linking to a sketch showing that we have an omnivore’s tooth structure doesn’t really prove that it dangerous to be vegan. In hunter-gatherer societies meat was a rarity. We ate it, but not a lot of it.
    In the kind of disaster being discussed here I would probably have to abandon a strict vegan diet, and I would probably eat meat if I really had to (although I’m not sure I would really have to). I certainly wouldn’t worry about a little whey in bread found in the remains of a grocery store.

  90. Cpt. Tim says:

    so what you’re saying is, theres no atheists trying to get into foxes holes?

    I’m sorry, that was bad.

  91. Teresa Nielsen Hayden / Moderator says:

    Cpt. Tim, et al.:

    It wasn’t enough that we were running through the standard arguments about vegetarianism, PLUS the standard arguments about apocalypse-scenario survival strategies? You had to drag in an argument about the existence of God?

    The only thing we lack now is for someone to drag in arguments about gun control and abortion. Once that happens, we can all shout BINGO! and start over.

  92. mujadaddy says:

    #76 posted by calabanos , January 8, 2008 11:41 PM

    So much fear of vegetarians. t smlls f slf lthng.

    So much armchair psychiatry. t smcks f prjctn.

    (Honestly, how do you discern “vegetariphobia” from people who disagree with that lifestyle?)

  93. Takuan says:

    ………well… if you REALLY insist….

  94. Teresa Nielsen Hayden / Moderator says:

    Cpt. Tim, it’s only polite to refer to one’s opponent as “regurgitating” if you’re using it as a euphemism for “barf”.

    Mujadaddy: sorry, but stem-cell caviar doesn’t top Takuan’s post. And by the way: it’s no skin off your nose if vegetarians think vegetarianism is a good thing. It’d be a lot stranger if they didn’t.

    A general comment: anyone who’s genuinely interested in emergency preparedness should consider reading this page on jump kits, a.k.a. go bags. It has links to the author’s discussions of rationales, materials, and overall philosophy.

  95. Teresa Nielsen Hayden / Moderator says:

    Takuan, no! I do not insist.

    I do not insist at all.

    (That’s the responsible moderator talking. The irresponsible me that likes blowing things up thinks it would be interesting.)

  96. thislemis says:

    Add me to the tally of (well) armed vegans.

    My reasons for veganism center on factory farming. Come the apocalypse, pretty much all the available meat will be free range and organic (aka wild animals). I don’t have any problem with eating such meat, other than I kinda think it’s gross after 10+ years of being a vegan. It’s not nearly as gross as resorting to eating bugs, however, and I’d be happy to do it if it’s that or go without protein.

  97. Takuan says:

    Finally! The true Vegan agenda is revealed! They typically support gun control laws so the rest of us won’t be able to harvest them come the Apocalypse. Further, their whale-loving support of same-sex abortion is a plot to deprive us of the tenderest protein when the canned goods run out.

    I’m on to you.

  98. Cpt. Tim says:

    “As there are no atheists in foxholes”

    This always struck me as an idiotic saying. If i’m about to die, i have to resign myself to non existence, which is what i believe. Theres no point in suddenly believing in a vengeful god that condemns people to hell for the sorts of things i’ve said about him for decades.

Leave a Reply