Vatican comes up with a new list of Seven Sins

The Last Papist

The Church does not support prostilization. You have to check out the Jehovah Witnesses and Madonna’s Kabbalah Cult for that. Guess it’s OK for them to trade off helping the poor for a little of their own religious brainwashing. If you really want to know what a good Catholic in action does instead of bashing the bad ones who fall short of those spiritually perfect heathens that habitate this planet,you should look into what Dr. Andrew Simone of Toronto does for the poor in the name of God.

And by the way Noen, two negatives make a positive, so I am not sure what you mean by your statement below? I am entitled to my feelings in a Democratic Society last I heard.
“You have no right to not be offended by the opinions of others. “They aren’t forcing their point of view on anyone.” This is absurd.

LarryWelz

RE; the art competition (I hate competitions, esp. art competitions)I’m thinking more Gustave Dore, but it might take me a while to do it.

Antinous

Tak-ue,

Breathe.

g.park

@13-
I don’t know what God thinks about the Vatican adding these laws by themselves. Did God ever appoint them as His spokesperson in the first place?

Jesus (who both is, and is not God for some reason) appointed Peter as His spokesman in Matthew 16:18-9, and allowed Peter to make laws on Earth that would be binding in Heaven. Therefore, G-d is behind this nonsense 100%.

Apparently Peter’s push-to-talk line with JHVH got passed from Peter all the way down to this Ratzinger chap who calls the shots these days.

Renwick

I’d like to see the church go through with cleansing themselves of sin #6.

Wickedashtray

“excessive wealth”???

so Bill Gates who is generally thought of as the worlds richest individual and who donates MASSIVE amounts to many many good causes is guilty of sin? My brother who had several vertebrae removed, was pumped full of morphine for far longer than was necessary and became of hardcore opiate addict as a result, is a sinner?

I won’t even get into stem cell research and birth control….

Religion is truly for the backwards.

Takuan

(am I blue again?)

The Last Papist

I am going to watch American Idol shortly, it makes all the bad things in the world go away for 60 minutes. Wish we could all just get along.

Kum Ba Yah

Paul Raven

Sanctimonious bastards. They’ve got the last three of the list pretty much sewn up on their own in some parts of the world … largely through enforcing the first. Sh1th34ds*.

*IMHO, of course. Other opinions are available … including ones that don’t foreclose on your free will and ability to have a life untainted by guilt.

Antinous

I was thinking more red.

g.park

@13-
I don’t know what God thinks about the Vatican adding these laws by themselves. Did God ever appoint them as His spokesperson in the first place?

Jesus (who both is, and is not God for some reason) appointed Peter as His spokesman in Matthew 16:18-9, and allowed Peter to make laws on Earth that would be binding in Heaven. Therefore, G-d is behind this nonsense 100%.

Apparently Peter’s push-to-talk line with JHVH got passed from Peter all the way down to this Ratzinger chap who calls the shots these days.

Mr. Gunn

I’m glad the Vatican is warning people of the dangers of accumulating excessive wealth.

Being a good example for others apparently just missed making the list.

Antinous

I thought that American Idol was all the bad things in the world, concentrated into sixty minutes.

Takuan

Oh-kayyy,…. looks OK so far…..

http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/bodyandhealth/story.html?id=915d7582-8fbb-47f8-8e7e-cb871ed9dd4c

Im very leery of the mother teresa reference, I lean to the Hitchen interpretation,,,,,

so why does he need the church to do this? It is redundant as is the religious aspects of his revelation. Lots of non-believers have ephiphanies.

Takuan

AH those crazy kids at the world’s largest real estate operation! How about the child raping huh? Or the targeting of the poor for recruits and the increasing of the ranks of the poor by opposing family planning? All those vatican art treasures gathering dust when they could be sold for food for the hungry. Aboriginal people everywhere still badly wounded from having the native beat out of them. All those nuns,monks and priests with blighted lives from having their natural sexuality crushed in the name of subjugation to church power. Gay people everywhere, murdered by church sanction and still being made to fight for basic human rights. Cultural treasures lost to the bonfires of the church in South America, The Inquisition, the retarding of science, the wilfull delay of medical advances, the overweening hypocrisy , the brutality, the greed, the ignorance……

How dare they show their faces much less preach about “sin”?

JamesMason

These comments are really interesting in what they reveal about Boing Boing readership. Or at least the small percentage that bother to comment.

I could have guessed that people would take issue with #1 and #2. I am genuinely surprised at the comments regarding 3-7. In line with that percentage, I think religion on the whole is a positive force in the world. The Catholic church is to be applauded for making the attempt to update their list.

Yet one more revelation to add to the bunch.

Jim

Takuan

enslaver of women:

“As a physician, he received a harsh awakening to abortion in the late 70s when he became the first dermatologist at a new suburban hospital. Freshly trained in his four-year specialty in Boston at a Harvard-affiliated hospital, he noticed there were 30 deliveries and 29 abortions done in one month at this hospital. Appalled, he approached his colleagues to protest, but to no avail. They began to avoid him, to snicker or ridicule him as “a radical” and many stopped referring patients to him. Dismayed by his inability to change the pro-abortion mindset, he decided that he didn’t “want to be a Christian specialist just for the rich.” With a lucrative practice, his wife Joan and eight children (who now number 13 with one adopted) he enjoyed a good lifestyle, but was unhappy.

They received a handwritten letter from Mother Teresa herself, encouraging them “to continue collecting food in big quantities as there is no food to buy here, but in your country there is plenty.” She thanked them “for what you do for Jesus in the disguise of the poor.” With their calling now affirmed, in 1985 they officially founded Canadian Food for Children (CFC). In 2001, they shipped 266 containers to 22 countries enabling CFC to feed thousands of starving children.”

IronyElemental

I hear David Fincher and Brad Pitt are already signed up to do “Se7en 2.” Can’t wait.

Sra

Sometimes you can create poverty by not using birth control.

The Lizardman

@ 64

Antinous,

From my admittedly limited experience a good number of historians will agree with me but most know better than to make such an unpopular public outcry. The fact that there is still a case made for there being a historical jesus is a political and social situation rather than one of interpeting facts. Not to mention that most people who are doing the history have a vested interest in continuing to claim there was a historical jesus

Outside of the bible there is little to no mention or support for jesus as even just a historical figure. Given what we know or can at least assert to know of the bible’s (group) authorship it is most likely that jesus is an amalgam character based on various persons and echoing ideas popular with the writers – which goes a long way to explaining some of his positional variances.

In any other case we would hardly accept one document (which is known to have several other historical inaccuracies – many of which were seemingly willfully included / manufactured) to be the deciding evidence

Antinous

Sounds like the tail wagging the dog to me.

SteveKiwi

How come the original list only took one word to scare you, but the new list needs a bunch of explanation?

In the last couple of days I read (don’t think it was on BoingBoing, maybe Yahoo news?) that the US Catholic Church had paid out $600 million in abuse case settlements in 2007. Which brings up my fundamental issues with the church: 1) that they ignored, covered up, and condoned abuse by priests, and 2) that they have $600 million.

I’m a C&E Catholic (Christmas and Easter – that joke actually made by a priest one Christmas mass). I only attend at holidays when we go down to stay with my wife’s family (and even then not every time). I never give them money. I have not gone to church regularly since I was about 14 years old (my mother cried when I refused to go, that’s one of the worst things I ever felt in my life).

And so I find myself, any time the church is mentioned, making comments along the lines of “I’ll believe in them when they remember their vow of poverty and sell their gold mansions and use the money to help the poor”. I believe in God and in Jesus, at least I think I do, maybe I just believe in the ideals they represent. I just can’t stand any kind of organized religion, it really is just a guilt trip into giving money.

Why am I saying all this? Just to point out that the Catholic Church is not all powerful, it is not all evil (there are lots of folks who truly believe), it’s really just another of the Jim Bakker type scams, only it’s been around a lot longer. It might have been born of real belief, but it certainly got corrupted along the way.

In summary: this is yet another worthless pronouncement by a worthless group of people. To paraphrase Billy Connolly: “Why are we being told how to f*ck by the f*ckless?”.

Or U2: “I’d join the movement if there was one I could believe in, yeah I’d break bread and wine if there was a church I could receive in”.

The Last Papist

He’s not doing it for the “Church” , he’s doing it for God. I think Mother Teresa’s example of giving was inspirational to him, as it has been to many people. I think what he took away from her was that you don’t need to beg people to give to you, that through your example you will draw and inspire others to do the same or help you willingly. I think that was a point you yourself made earlier, Catholic is as Catholic does.

He is working independently from any “Church”involvement, it’s his own personal calling that he is following and he and his own family and volunteers are doing all the work.

Takuan

they know how to show a girl a good time though

http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/santiago/ladytort.gif

The Lizardman

@ 85

How so? I don’t think that phrase means what one of us thinks it does.

Obviously, I cannot prove there was no historical jesus. However, I can and have come to the conclusion that the evidence given for such a person is extremely lacking and utterly unconvincing. I am open to seeing more evidence, in fact I have devoted a great deal of time looking for it as I was once in the position of thinking there was a historical jesus (but have always been an atheist) and upon being challenged on that point was unable to back it up and thusly changed my position.

Roach

SteveKM – the church DOESN’T have 600 million, at least not in liquid assets. What happens whenever those large settlements are levied is that the church has to sell a lot of its land and close a lot of institutions, like schools, monasteries and parishes – many of which are the ways in which it does try to help the poor.

That doesn’t absolve them of #1. I can only hope that the media attention and the lawsuits will do what moral rectitude should have, and end the cover-ups.

I don’t buy the scam hypothesis, though. If the priests themselves were making millions instead of, as they mostly do, living communally in small houses or apartments, working 60+ hours a week, and the like. They could make a lot more working in the secular world, and a LOT more if they joined a different religion or made their own (ah, L. Ron).

The Last Papist

Noen, Thanks for the 360, I will take your wise words to heart.

May I ask Antinous a question then?
Why do you say “competing faiths”? I never looked at it that way? Also, about ‘making a decision to believe in Vishnu”, can’t one just acknowledge and respect something in someone else’s religion and not necessarily be obliged to worship or have faith in it? Not worshiping the same things does not deny that they exist. I listen to Sikhism philosophy on TV and really really enjoy and appreciate what their outlook on how we should live and behave etc etc. I don’t believe or know everything about the guru’s etc, but I can still say they have a good and positive message. I don’t think I feel in competition with them. Catholicism has much in common with Hinduism, you just have to read Thomas Merton to know how he incorporated the philosophy and meditation practices of Hinduism into his own monastic meditations.

scottfree

internet message boards are /the/ worst place for sincerely held beliefs. I guess people need to be able to question themselves if they want to escape the internet with their patience/sanity intact, which isn’t a bad requirement at all, really. I know this person really doesn’t mean any harm, but I know it might end up pretty ugly if I say what I really think about people who say “love everyone”, have “aha moments” and watch American Idol.

Cynicism sets in early in my family.

chgoliz

@21 -

ITA.

If you force people to have more children than they can afford, and strong-arm them into tithing even when they can barely scrape by, then lo-and-behold you:

5. Contribute to widening divide between rich and poor (through)

6. Your own excessive wealth (and)

7. Creating poverty

It seems as if the only Catholics able to have sex without consequences are the (supposedly celibate) priests.

The Last Papist

He’s not doing it for the “Church” , he’s doing it for God. I think Mother Teresa’s example of giving was inspirational to him, as it has been to many people. I think what he took away from her was that you don’t need to beg people to give to you, that through your example you will draw and inspire others to do the same or help you willingly. I think that was a point you yourself made earlier, Catholic is as Catholic does.

He is working independently from any “Church”involvement, it’s his own personal calling that he is following and he and his own family and volunteers are doing all the work.

If you want to make his opinion on abortion an issue, vs. seeing a man who has given up everything to help others, what can I say. I think you need to have an abortion yourself first before you can say what the implications of it are on a woman. You should do some investigating into the psychological effects of abortions on women before you try to highlight someone else’s right to their beliefs as being horrific or unjust.

elsmiley

I’m consistently shocked that there are still roughly 76 million people in the US alone who subscribe to this deadly nonsense. Three times as many as the next largest cult, Baptists. They accuse me of being in a cult because I wear black clothes, and yet they worship this bloody corpse hanging from an instrument of torture and death. Yeah, I’m the one that’s morbid.

And you’re right, Kid, they just threw those obvious ones in so they could get away with calling drug addicts and scientists sinners. The reason they are against abortion is because they want catholics to make more catholics who will give them more money. None of them are intelligent enough to actually think through the issue.

Oh, btw, I went to catholic school, was an alter boy, the whole nine.

EncarnacionFlor

Takuan @ #63 said:
(I’m secretly hoping a rabid true believer will savage us here soon – I’m dying to try out “sallykerning”)

While I’m not at all rabid, I do truly believe in YHWH and His plan for His creation. It is my “thing” to tell this story always, but it does it, me, or those listening no good if I’m a jerk, idiot, et c. while telling it. I’m part of what the (Roman) Catholic church now calls “seperated bretheren.” I like this new list, but would list it backwards myself. I’d also get out the word about what Saul/Paul meant when writing 1 Corintians 7. I also don’t really see anything wrong with avoiding like the plague the things on the first list. So what is this “sallykerning” you speak of? If it would help you to “get it out” (whatever it is), go ahead and do it to me.

The Last Papist

OK no more comments from me, it’s been a slice chatting and your level of cynicism would pale against what I could but refuse to dish out. I have it built into my DNA.

Ciao and God loves Paula Simone and Randy

scottfree

I win!!!!!!

rachthegoat

As a recovering Catholic, I can only give a resounding “Hell Yeah!” to Takuan for #24.
Amen, brother. Testify.

The Last Papist

And you want ME to have a sense of humor??? I can’t imagine why I think anyone is picking on Catholicism when it’s beliefs are equated to avoiding grapeskins and haircuts, which taken out of context sounds ridiculous but may mean something to those of the Orthodox Judaic faith, and I don’t have a right either to mock them.

Has anyone seen what mutant hybrid cats look like? My sister had to call in the police to shoot one that showed up in her back yard and kept them captive. It had a value of anywhere from $5000 to $20000, but the owner let it get out of its’ cage. Hate to see what else genetic engineering will give us? We have enough mutant human jackasses roaming our planet as is. Why do we need scientists screwing around with things to create more freaks for money , which is the true purpose not the betterment of humankind.

fltndboat

Christ was a mushroom. Original “Christianity” was the inner state achieved from consuming same. Way too much Love and freedom running around loose. The church took care of that. Thanks Takuan

Stefan Jones

The 21st century is going to require frequent New Sin updates.

Remember that BB story about “people” in Second Life having virtual sex with unicorns in order to give birth to virtual pet unicorns? That’s gotta be a sin to these guys. (Maybe not as bad a sin as actual sex with a unicorn, which won’t be happening without some serious advances in genetic engineering.)

Takuan

well! that went well

Khonsu

I’m all for FAITH, but organized religion always smacks of bigotry and hatred, regardless of who it’s from–hell, every religion in the world sans modern pagan reimaginings are rife with bigotry. How can a good person be happily religious but also be socially liberal?

You just can’t have that kind of doublethink–either you believe that the Bible is dead wrong about slavery, gays, women’s lib, et al. or it’s absolutely right. This “interpretation” stuff is all right and good, but the people who are vehemently Evangelical ARE the ones who are the most accurate–most religions are just hateful from my perspective.

agnot

Hmmm . . .

7 Deadly Sins, now 14, to 4 Cardinal virtues, still 4.

How depressing does Catholicism get?

Teresa Nielsen Hayden / Moderator

Last Papist (and what a presumptuous name that is), Antinous is right. You’re here to feel sorry for yourself, and pretend to an unearned martyrdom. In the process, you’ve alienated your listeners, and brought religion and the church into greater disrepute than it was when you got here.

frankstendal

How am I supposed to keep up with all these new sins? I’ve only just gotten through the first seven… I’m only human!

Irreal

‘Bioethical’, ‘morally dubious’ ‘contributing to widening…’ Is it me, or are these new ones a bit subjective?
The old ones neatly encompassed human nature and motivations, these ones, well they’re a pathetic attempt to remain relevant.
I used to be able to manage all 7 sins in 30 seconds, I’ll have to improve my routine to get the rest in within a decent time-frame each day.

Takuan

sing along with Joanie!

I was an unmarried girl
I’d just turned twenty-seven
When they sent me to the sisters
For the way men looked at me
Branded as a jezebel
I knew I was not bound for Heaven
I’d be cast in shame
Into the Magdalene laundries

Most girls come here pregnant
Some by their own fathers
Bridget got that belly
By her parish priest
We’re trying to get things white as snow
All of us woe-begotten-daughters
In the steaming stains
Of the Magdalene laundries

Prostitutes and destitutes
And temptresses like me–
Fallen women–
Sentenced into dreamless drudgery …
Why do they call this heartless place
Our Lady of Charity?
Oh charity!

These bloodless brides of Jesus
If they had just once glimpsed their groom
Then they’d know, and they’d drop the stones
Concealed behind their rosaries
They wilt the grass they walk upon
They leech the light out of a room
They’d like to drive us down the drain
At the Magdalene laundries

Peg O’Connell died today
She was a cheeky girl
A flirt
They just stuffed her in a hole!
Surely to God you’d think at least some bells should ring!
One day I’m going to die here too
And they’ll plant me in the dirt
Like some lame bulb
That never blooms come any spring
Not any spring
No, not any spring
Not any spring

anthropomorphictoast

I see they’ve forgotten to add “General Stupidity” to the list. If for nothing else, I’d like to hear the confession “Forgive me father, for I am stupid.”

Angstrom

I love the way that 2 is “morally debatable experiments” , or “morally dubious” (depending on the source). Now perhaps I have this sinning thing wrong but … how did anything ‘debatable’ get on a list of edicts ?

They don’t come out and say : “NO heretical tampering with creation”, but instead: “possibly best not to tinker with stuff, not sure though”

g.park

@156-
How are the Mitzvot conceptually different than the Catholic Virtues? Is it wrong to compare the two? You clearly think the Mitzvot are nonsense, because you don’t adhere to them. By accepting Catholicism you tacitly (and during your Christening, a Priest vocally did it on your behalf) reject all others. By accepting Catholicism, you are declaring that all other faiths are phony-baloney made-up mumbo-jumbo. If they weren’t, you’d be playing by their rules too, and I assume you haven’t prayed to Mecca lately or offered any sacrifices to Wotan.

Scientists “screwing around with things” is the reason you don’t have polio or smallpox, by the way.

elsmiley

Takuan, that just gave me chills. Good quote, good call, as always.

g.park

“I am entitled to my feelings in a Democratic Society last I heard.
‘You have no right to not be offended by the opinions of others. They aren’t forcing their point of view on anyone.’ This is absurd.

Not absurd at all. A democratic society has no compelling interest in protecting your feelings, and social pressure suppressing OUR speech against your convictions is inherently un-democratic. If you’re worried about having your feelings hurt, you should stay out of the debate.

Catholicism is a philosophical, cosmological, and historical position, and is no more protected from criticism than other philosophical positions like existentialism or modernism, cosmological positions like atomism or string theory, or historical positions like creationism or catastrophism. Simply because it’s the same position your ancestors likely took doesn’t entitle it to any special protections. Ask a good atheist to defend his/her beliefs, and s/he’ll do it, instead of turtling behind the “I’m offended!” defense.

Religion has got a free pass in public debate for far too long. Anyone (including Oprah or Obama) passing out a list of bad behaviors deserves a thorough dressing down from the rational populace. In 2008, we try to change each other’s behavior with rational argument and supporting evidence, not horror stories about pitchforks and flames, and not with “because I said so” rhetoric.

g.park

@Teresa-

But Catholicism, like most monotheistic faiths, is inherently exclusionary. I have a feeling you wrote Post 161 before my post (160) went live (I got a lot of errors before it posted, and even then it didn’t show for errors), because we ended up quoting the same parts of the Nicene Creed. That supports my point that Catholicism is exclusionary. If you uphold the tenants of the doctrine, you have to renounce all other gods, and recognize all churches as unholy and untrue. Whether a particular adherent chooses to see “spiritual value” in other faiths is their choice, but Catholic doctrine asserts that there is not.

If Christian men believed that the tenants of Sikhism were true, they would feel bound to wear the 5 Articles of Faith at all times, or risk their salvation. As we see few Christian men wearing ceremonial daggers and such, we can assume that most Christian men believe the tenants of Sikhism to be untrue, since they do not fear losing their salvation by ignoring them.

There’s a difference in seeing subjective “spiritual value” in other faiths, by accepting that they uplift morality, or increase their adherants’ happiness, etc. However, by accepting one faith above all others, one makes a statement about the objective “spiritual value” of the rejected faiths.

Most people won’t say they think that the rules of other religions are bunkum, but isn’t their opinion evidenced by their obvious lack of obedience to them?

Moltz

Wait, where’s rickrolling?

The Last Papist

Sorry for my glaring error, it was early in the morning when i wrote my comment, Teresa. No I am not playing with anyone’s head here, just don’t think I can dispute all the precepts of Catholicism without having a PHD in Theology, wouldn’t you agree? Anyway, I am a she not a he and am a Catholic which is not necessarily synonymous with sainthood or being a religious know it all like some people here think they are. I came here just to say, let’s look at some of the positive side of what the Vatican’s point or perspective is rather than just bashing it all to hell because there are so many resident hypocrits in Rome, which I whole heartedly agree there are. Is that any different from many other institutions? Does it mean that you through out the baby with the bathwater? If you have something to ask me Teresa, please do, I would love to have a civil discussion, respecting everyone’s opinion. Thanks Therese alias Papist

Teresa Nielsen Hayden / Moderator

G.Park, it’s a very nice syllogism, but its conclusion doesn’t bear much resemblance to my experience. Besides, who am I to say where the Holy Spirit can or can’t go? That critter gets around.

Antinous (168), possibly because there’s a great deal of Catholicism, linked and coexisting, like Dormitions and Assumptions. This gives it more flexibility.

Papist, I’m not finding this convincing.

Noen, don’t think I haven’t noticed, and appreciated it.

Much as I love Boing Boing, it’s still mastering the art of fluent conversation. I don’t want to lose you from the discourse here, but you might enjoy sampling the threads at Majikthise, Firedoglake, Making Light, or Crooked Timber.

Anne K.

Good Lord, Catholic Church.

I’m totally taking back all those amusing altar kid stories I told about you.

pfh

‘Morally dubious’…

Wow, a recursive definition of sin!

‘Bioethical’ violations…

Bio-unethical violations are fine.

remmelt

Why are 5, 6 and 7 the same thing?

Dayv

Why are 5, 6 and 7 the same thing?

I can’t believe it took 91 comments for someone to ask that.

…

And on the “was there a historical Jesus” debate… there is exactly as much historical evidence for the existence of the man known as Jesus Christ as there is for the idea that a large society of Jews were once enslaved in Egypt: absolutely none.

Jack Caesar

I’m with 30 & 70.

This new list doesn’t seem to get the point of the original seven deadly sins at all.

The first list, which is a great list (each and every one a sin I cherish and adore (‘cepting maybe envy, maybe)) is a list of drives. It’s a breakdown of the parts of human nature which motivate us to do things that might hurt others or ourselves. It’s a good list.

The new list is just a list of things that a committee ideologically committed to sentiment over reason has semi-arbitrarily decided are bad.

The hating on organised religions is always funny. The absolute certainty, the – capital f – Faith that they do more harm than good… Cleverer people than me have pointed out the religious zealotry apparent in the denouncements.

Antinous

May I ask Antinous a question then?

Feel free, but that’s all from G Park’s comment. In fact, it’s largely antithetical to my comments.

g.park

@93-

“The absolute certainty, the – capital f – Faith that they do more harm than good”

I’ve never heard of scientists starting an 80-year war of occupation to secure some real estate. Also, I don’t remember any scientists torturing and killing thousands upon thousands of people, just for having different ideas. The last official Inquisition was ended in 1858, so the Holy See has only been Inquisition-free for 150 years, which is about 7.5% of its history. And last I checked, the National Science Teacher Association didn’t have a pending class action lawsuit vis a vis statutory rape.

You may call it “religious zealotry,” but I’m perfectly willing to accept evidence that the Catholic Church (or dogma in general) has done more good than it has done harm. However, looking at the history books, and looking at the atrocities that Islam is inspiring worldwide, I have yet to see a convincing argument that religion makes the world a better place for anyone other than its own adherents.

fennel

So… any takers on a single act that will either simultaneously commit or directly lead to the commission of all new 7 deadly sins?

Seems to me that not using birth control can result in most of them…

Antinous

Catholicism is exclusionary

But Catholics often aren’t. Catholicism is syncretic, shoehorning Jesus into Roman State paganism, itself one of histories most syncretic religions. As religious folks go, Catholics, at least modern ones, are quite liberal. Embarrassingly for the Holy See, Italy has the world’s lowest birth rate. The Catholics that I know who still do things like say rosaries and novenas are often the ones who are most respectful to other religions, because they recognize and honor faith and devoutness as intrinsically good.

Peterus

Is this even branch of Christian anymore?
First they substracted commandment, now they add 7 new sins?!

Jesus was pretty sharp guy and some claim he knew the future (or at least predict it with god-like accuracy). He might easily add these. And even in form understandable to ppl of his time.

1. Human life starts at conception, so behold punishment for killing the unborn.

2. Human life is sanctified and any tempering with it is forbidden in the name of thine God. (this would definetely hurt medicine, just as stem cell research blocking may hurt it now)

3. Do not cloud thine mind by impure substances.

4. Thou shall cherish nature and thou shall not litter.

5. (ok maybe not this one… it’s some BS even now, but let me try) Thou shall pay close attention to sins 6 and 7. Very close.

6. Thou shall not be wealthier than thine bishop.

7. Thou shall not make people poor.

bxrguy

LUST is back in fashion! Yippee!

And, as for “bioethical violations”, I believe Lea Delaria once said “Life begins when you learn to mind your own f*cking business.”

Brian Carnell

“5. Contributing to widening divide between rich and poor”

…but its okay to tell them that condoms cause AIDS:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/oct/09/aids

“So… any takers on a single act that will either simultaneously commit or directly lead to the commission of all new 7 deadly sins?”

Elliot Spitzer FTW.

So-Called Austin Mayor

When I first saw this post, I thought it said, “Vulcan comes up with a new list of Seven Sins.”

Ironically, both the planet and the god have more moral authority than the papacy.

Teresa Nielsen Hayden / Moderator

You guys have it all wrong. This doesn’t replace the old list of Seven Deadly Sins, a.k.a. the Seven Capital Vices. It’s a new, additional list: the Seven Social Sins.

Catholicism has a considerable accumulation of these lists, among which are:

The Two Great Precepts of Charity
The Two Natures of Christ
The Three Persons in the Trinity
The Three Eminent Good Works
The Three Evangelical Counsels
The Three Theological Virtues
The Four Cardinal Virtues
The Four Mysteries of the Rosary
The Four Last Things to be Remembered
The Four Sins Crying to Heaven for Vengeance
The Five Precepts of the Church (or, alternately)
The Six Precepts of the Church
The Six Sins against the Holy Spirit
The Seven Sacraments
The Seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit
The Seven Shining (Capital) Virtues
The Seven Deadly (Capital) Sins
The Seven Social Sins (new!)
The Seven Spiritual Works of Mercy
The Seven Corporal Works of Mercy
The Eight Beatitudes
The Nine Ways of Being an Accessory to Another’s Sin
The Ten Commandments
The Twelve Apostles
The Twelve Fruits of the Holy Spirit
The Twelve Articles of the Apostolic Creed
The Fourteen Stations of the Cross
The Eighteen Subjects for Daily Meditation
The Twenty-one Ecumenical Councils

There are also the Mysteries of Faith, but they don’t have a number because the first one is “The Unity and the Trinity of God,” and no one knows how to count that.

Teresa Nielsen Hayden / Moderator

How do you do, Papist. Shall we discuss presumption and scandal with a view toward your comments?

the_steve

@jamesmason:

“I think religion on the whole is a positive force in the world.”

I almost vomited when I read this.

Please tell all of the Israelis, Palestinians, Sudanese, Jews, Native Americans, homosexuals, and too many more to list here that religion is a positive force in the world.

You make me sick.

As for the new 7-deadly sins, “morally dubious” scientific research as judged by whom? Don’t think the church is quite equipped to deal with scientific matters after that whole Galileo fiasco.

Teresa Nielsen Hayden / Moderator

I think Papist has given up attentiveness for Lent.

Tom

G. Park @18 and 22: Apostolic succession was (arguably) broken sometime in the Middle Ages, which is one of the big justifications for Protestantism. The argument went that if the Pope doesn’t have a warrant from the physically risen Christ, then the Catholic Church ought not to have any special role in spiritual life. That the Church carried on claiming such a role made it, in the eyes of many Protestants, an instrument of Satan. Even English Protestantism was strongly influenced by this belief, particularly prior to the Restoration.

And whoever suggested Jesus was a Catholic: not so much. He lived and died a Jew.

Jack Caesar

@94 -

Excellent points all, if’n a religion good or bad argument was what I was talking about.

(I’ll accept that it may have seemed that I was talking about that – I’m not a scientist and thusly my comment wasn’t phrased with the elegance and clarity that a scientist could have achieved.)

Dude, what I was talking about was that thing where anti-religious sentiment occupies the same place in the brain as religious sentiment – it hits moral buttons, with reason only being brought in to buttress what the advocate already feels is right. Is what it seems like to me.

Now, maybe you weren’t doing this – but there are plenty of examples on this thread of this happening. And I get it – I get that righteous anger is fun – believe me, I know how much fun it is. And the calling out the litany of the sins of your enemies – I know that is fun too.

I guess – sorting out my thoughts a little – that what I roll my eyes at a bit is that when religion comes up in certain circles it seems like just an excuse for some hating, which I don’t think is that constructive. That a priori relegation of anything with a religious base to somewhere between worthless, stupid and evil.

Takuan

But not the Seven Single Malts?
talk about a no-fun religion….

Takuan

“let your faith light the world,

set fire to the church of your choice today”

lamarlowe

I see it as a positive trend. At least it is an attempt to stay current, finally, from one of our most staid and unchanging institutions. They are at least attempting to move up into the 1970′s, which is an improvement of 2 or 3 centuries.

Overall, though, I have to agree with Christopher Hitchens that one of the worst attributes of modern religion is that it encourages people to settle for deferred justice.

The Last Papist

You have no idea what I ‘clearly think’ You do not know what I ‘declare’ You don’t know who or what I have ‘prayed’ to Please don’t presume you know anything about me or quote me or put words in my mouth. You are proving to be an pseudo intellectual pompas ninny and are about as open minded as an unopened can of Pork and Beans.

Mea Culpa Mea Culpa Mea Multima Culpa

Apreche

Church better get working then. They are guilty of #5 and #6 for sure.

g.park

Really? So are you Catholic, and therefore recognize “one God,” and “one holy catholic and apostolic Church?” (quoted from the Nicene Creed). Recognizing other gods (by, for instance, praying to them), or other churches (by, for instance, participating in other rituals) would make you pretty much apostate, and therefore a candidate for automatic (or latae sententiae) excommunication.

In that case, you couldn’t really call yourself a Catholic. And since you’ve stated many times that you are, I made safe assumptions that you followed the basic tenants of the Church. You made assumptions about me (that my last name is Park, which proved to be correct) and that I’m male (also correct) based on my username and statements. I don’t think it’s going out of the way to assume you’re a Catholic, since you’ve said as much here.

If you’re ignoring doctrine, and picking and choosing which rules to observe, gods to worship, and rituals to practice, then you’re not religious, you’re just making things up- which puts you in an even worse position to debate religion.

DWittSF

So, according to this list, there is nothing wrong with buggery of children and conspiracies to cover up crimes?

They also left off another one of their favorites–thou shalt not have a relationship with God that is unmediated by Us.

It reminds me once again why I left these bastards for good, as soon as I was grown up enough to see the difference…

The Last Papist

Hi I read a few more comments , seems like you were all busy pummeling me while I enjoyed myself watching American Idol. I only gave up chocolate for Lent, my lack of attentiveness is from the headache I just got from the brow beating you all gave me. Mr. Park can you please re phrase your reply in ten words or less,,,,don’t have a clue wtf you’re talking about? Democracy does protect my feelings, I think that’s part of the constitution or the emancipation proclamation isn’t it? I think I am starting to have visions of crosses burning on hilltops….sorry I am Catholic, if I were anything else, you’d be forced to be politically correct. Hey, Good Friday is coming up soon, why don’t we round up the rest of us Catholics and crucify the lot of us! Have a Nice Day!

Xenu

Looks like they “forgot” to add pedophilia.

scottfree

…and a partridge in a pear tree, surely.

Antinous

Looks like they “forgot” to add pedophilia.

“The archbishop brushed off cases of sexual violence against minors committed by priests as “exaggerations by the mass media aimed at discrediting the Church”. BBC article

Mister N

PFFTT..wow, #5 and #6 are clearly visible within that organization ( adding the other Catholic affiliates..)..this is hillarious, what a paradox.

Antinous

Papist,

You keep acting like we’re martyring you. You persist in accusing everybody of attacking you when nobody is really paying all that much attention. And if you’re going to try for sarcasm, include some humor, please. As a general rule, if you want attention on BoingBoing, your best strategy is to be smart and funny.

JamesMason

KHONSU wrote:

“You just can’t have that kind of doublethink–either you believe that the Bible is dead wrong about slavery, gays, women’s lib, et al. or it’s absolutely right.”

Yeah, I agree – it is dead wrong about those things. However, for the most part, Jesus was on the “right” side of these issues. Modern biblical scholars can identify what he probably said and lots of other stuff that was said in his name, or added by others, etc., and the latter is the stuff that makes lots of rules, oppression, etc. BTW – this drives lots of people crazy but it’s the truth. I spent two years of my life going to seminary to try and figure this out.

My main point – If you look at the *gist* of his message, it is in line with what I would guess about 95% of the people who read Boing Boing think.

The problem is that organized religion doesn’t really do *gist* very well.

I don’t want to preach, just share the message that Jesus wanted us to love other people unconditionally, and that’s not a bad thing.

Also, you don’t have to believe in magic to be a Christian. I don’t. For that matter, I don’t really believe in God, but still consider myself a Christian.

Now I suppose I have made someone else sick…

The Last Papist

Smart AND funny?? geez, you’re making this tougher and tougher for me. OK I am going to work on it, as soon as I finish seeing the Passion of Christ, that should stir up a few laughs and flaggilations or is that flatulations?

moonracer23

I was just thinking about that ‘Jesus was a Jew’ thing. Wouldn’t he be a Christian simply by believing in himself?

Anyway, yeah. pretty depressing in a lot of ways. Earth needs a good strong plague to thin us humans out a bit.

Teresa Nielsen Hayden / Moderator

Takuan, it’s not enough that they serve wine during services?

JoeKickass

Sweet Zombie Jesus, what’s next?
“Thou shalt not hack thy neighbor’s WiFi”

scottfree

I think, Papist, that the least you owe the thread for not making any of the obvious puns on your name, is to cut out the passive aggressive act. It isn’t customary for people to rephrase perfectly clear arguments and I don’t particularly understand why you think people are picking on Catholicism rather than irrationality. One is left to wonder whether you like feeling persecuted or you dislike thinking, although these are not mutually exclusive

No by the way, your feelings are not protected by the constitution. I don’t understand why you would think they were. The ideological concept of liberal tolerance protects your feelings, in a way, but it isn’t legally binding. More of a social trope, which is in no way applicable to intelligent debate.

scottfree

Really i don’t think the church has to worry much about my becoming excessively rich. The good lord saw fit to make me particularly resilient against that sin, damn him.

But surely one couldn’t commit any of the new sins without having committed several of the old ones; isn’t the church saying look, in case you were a bit too daft to get it the first time…?

And another thing, surely these aren’t sins so much as global problems from their point of view?

Finally, if I lose my job and end up on the dole, aren’t I widening the rich/poor gap by getting poorer? But then, that wouldn’t happen unless someone created poverty by firing me.

Epic fail Catholic Church: sloppy logic. For penance you must canonize Father Jack hackett, who committed all the old sins and none of the new ones.

scottfree

I wouldn’t listen to Antinous, actually, Papist. I was smart and funny up and down this thread; its a thankless job, really.

Teresa Nielsen Hayden / Moderator

G.Park (158): It’s “renounce”: their guys are no longer your guys, so you don’t have to make a pilgrimage to Mecca, enact proxy baptisms for your dead ancestors, or fast on Yom Kippur.

Accepting Catholicism does not mean that you’re obliged to believe that all other faiths are phony-baloney made-up mumbo-jumbo. I can see how you’d get that impression, though — way too many people (wave, Papist!) confuse adhering to a religion with cheering for a sports team. In fact, I believe that it’s an error, or possibly several errors at once, to assert that there can be no spiritual value in other faiths.

Now, here’s a question: are we sure that Last Papist is a Catholic? Could be he’s just messing with us. He’s steadfastly refused to acknowledge anything I say. Also, the last time I reloaded this page and saw he’d posted again (159), I noticed he’s made a glaring error:

“Mea Culpa Mea Culpa Mea Multima Culpa”

Big no. It’s “Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.” It’s from the Confiteor, a traditional penitential prayer that’s part of the Mass; and I’ve never, ever seen a Catholic get it wrong.

Antinous (111), I never did thank you for reminding me of the sets of five mysteries. I also missed a couple of really obvious ones:

One God
One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church

O, the embarrassment.

Antinous

its a thankless job, really.

Won’t you be embarrassed when we throw you a surprise party?

scottfree

Also don’t monks and priests take vows of poverty? Where does that fit in? Who takes the sin hit there?

If the Catholics want to update the church, then as a CofE/Jew I want to be able to take a death bed saving throw against my stats in lieu of a conversion. Nine or higher, eternal life. You know, it might not help, but it can’t hurt.

Takuan

@54

just don’t kill anyone, OK?

Antinous

Teresa,

The Five Joyful Mysteries
The Five Sorrowful Mysteries
The Five Luminous Mysteries
The Five Glorious Mysteries

Seriously, OCD.

Takuan

so long as it’s French

smoore

Re: these comments, for the most part:

Is hateful bigotry a sign of freedom? No. But it
always has an element of fear in it.

“Most modern freedom is at root fear. It is not so much that we are too bold to endure rules; it is rather that we are too timid to endure responsibilities.”

G.K.Chesterton

Julian Morrison

So basically, leftism, greenism, and anti-transhuman reactionism. Tell me why I don’t like this particular superstition, again?

Antinous

Sounds like the tail wagging the dog to me.

Because it sounds as if you started with a conclusion and are now handpicking facts to support it.

Disclaimer: I was raised by research scientists without any religious upbringing of any kind.

Takuan

? are you suggesting we are bigots because we hate the catholic church because of the fear it inspires in us?

Are you suggesting we are irresponsible because we decline catholic rules?

noen

A Christmas thunderbolt for the arch-enemy of religion

John Cornwell, makes some good points here vis-Ã -vis Richard Dawkins. I like especially “For what many atheists loathe is not God at all but the false representations of Me.”

Still, the whole idea of a list of “sins” as a way of structuring a moral society is like so…. 13th century. Freud put the final nail in that coffin long ago.

Antinous

so long as it’s French

I think that sacramental wine is more likely to be Mogen David than Chateau Margaux.

Takuan

in a laboratory cage?

The Lizardman

There is no problem with anything jesus said and jesus was not a jew because…jesus didn’t exist!

Arguing about the alleged doings and beliefs of a myth is worse than most internet arguments unless they are taking place in a fan fiction forum.

“historical” jesus is bigger scam than the religion he didn’t spawn

g.park

Antinous-

But Catholics often aren’t

Let’s examine that. While a member of one faith can certainly respect the piety and devotion of a member of a competing faith, they have to make up their mind about whether or not that competing faith’s description of the spiritual world is accurate.

A Christian may respect the devotion of a Hindu, but that Christian has to make a decision about whether or not s/he believes that Vishnu exists. If s/he decides that Vishnu exists in the same way that JHVH does, then that Christian is in violation of the 2nd Commandment (Exodus version). If the Christian decides that Vishnu does not exist, isn’t s/he acknowledging that his/her Hindu friend is wrong about the spiritual world?

Naturally, these types of sentiments do not mesh well with plans for a peaceful, diverse world. It seems that your Catholic friends are “outgrowing” the exclusionist parts of the dogma. Let’s hope that religionists of all stripes begin to outgrow the rest of the dogma, so we can have moral philosophies that don’t require mythical support and authoritarian enforcement.

noen

Catholicism, or the culture it resided in, gave us Bach and Handel’s Messiah. That’s got to count for something. Oh and Michaelangelo’s Sistine Chapel and da Vinci’s Mona Lisa. There were some good things to come from the Church.

Re: Jesus is a Jew, I thought he was an Essene?

Re: The need for a plague, you go first, I’ll be right behind, I promise.

Re: Either the Bible is right or wrong about slavery etc. Well, if you reject black and white either/or thinking, and you should, you can’t then turn around and use it to criticize one’s opponent.

So if you reject the narrow minded thinking that leads some people to a restrictive, fundamentalist interpretation of a sacred text. Then you should also evaluate said text from a more scholarly or literary view. You should also try not to as big an asshole as they are.

Atheists can be just as tiresome as Fundamentalists. Case in point, Pharyngula.

scottfree

Sacramental cocktails. Is there any good reason why not?

Takuan

“Catholicism, or the culture it resided in, gave us Bach and Handel’s Messiah. That’s got to count for something. Oh and Michaelangelo’s Sistine Chapel and da Vinci’s Mona Lisa. There were some good things to come from the Church.”

nope, nope, nope, nopeity nope nope no.

People gave us all that. Probably all would have been better if the church power barons of the day weren’t steering the artists and creators. The church gets credit for nothing.

The Last Papist

I guess if Mahatma Ghandi, Barack Obama or Oprah Winfrey came up with the list, you’d all be having an AHA moment.

If it was anyone but the Catholic Church making this comment you’d all be afraid to be called an anti-something or another. At least the Catholic Church in all it’s imperfection tolerates the crap that’s thrown at it, which is a far cry from other religions you can’t even draw a cartoon about or mention the J word in the same sentence.

Why don’t you all be positive and take some good out of what the Vatican is saying, like don’t be a crack head, help out the poor or don’t dump your McDonald refuse on the roads. Oh sorry, now I am sounding like Dr.Phil.

Takuan

well, why don’t you tell us what you think?

Antinous

that Christian has to make a decision

Catholics seem to do better in the gray zone of decision abeyance than other Christians. Possibly due to the generous quantities of wine. Possibly due to the church’s occasional 180 on things that used to be absolutely, positively, unquestionably God’s truth.

jphilby

Here we go again, from the “do as I say not as I do” church.

* “‘Morally dubious’ experiments” such as ignoring pederasty, wiping out entire competing religious sects, destroying artifacts and history of competitors…

* “Drug abuse … Polluting the environment … Contributing to widening divide between rich and poor” — such as claims about guardian angels, eternal damnation, et al that cause people to accept oppressive living conditions and fear authority in return for reward in an imaginary afterlife – for millenia.

* “Excessive wealth” – see: St. Francis; how many crowns *does* a Pope need?

* “Creating poverty” — see: South America

CharlesSpongeworth

The new sins are all very vague. Isn’t drinking alcohol “drug abuse”? Don’t they do that in Church? I’m about to have a cup of tea but I’m worried that that might be drug abuse too. Also isn’t a person’s very existence polluting the environment to some level?

Hell doesn’t sound that bad if you can avoid all the preachiness of those who will go to Heaven.

Takuan

(I’m secretly hoping a rabid true believer will savage us here soon – I’m dying to try out “sallykerning”)

Antinous

Lizardman,

I think that very few historians would agree with you.

Antinous

Petri dish.

Takuan

“sallykerning” is a new usage as exemplified by one Sally Kern. Go listen to her on Youtube. Now we have a convenient term to describe the phenonomon.

Antinous

I’m secretly hoping a rabid true believer will savage us here soon

You want me to defend the Most Holy Catholic & Apostolic Church? Fine! Here goes. There has been no more fertile breeding ground for gorgeously costumed male homosexuality since late antiquity. Chew on that.

Antinous

Why don’t you all be positive and take some good out of what the Vatican is saying

There are plenty of comments noting the socially progressive additions to the list, including mine. And you must not be a regular BB reader. If Oprah had come up with the list, it wouldn’t be here. And if Oprah’s list was here, the comments would be at least as nasty.

noen

Is this thing still going on? Papist, you say “I came here just to say, let’s look at some of the positive side of what the Vatican’s point or perspective is rather than just bashing it all to hell”. Ok, how have you done that? I see no evidence of you doing that here at all. Funny isn’t it?

“I would love to have a civil discussion, respecting everyone’s opinion.” So why aren’t you having those kinds of discussions? I’ve had those same thoughts myself and gradually (and Teresa can verify this for you if you like) came to realize that it was my behavior that was the problem.

I have since changed my behavior and while I am not always having those wonderful discussions I imagined, I am getting different and sometimes even better results. But nothing happened until I was willing to examine my own behavior and try to change. I’m still working on that part. Even so I cannot control how others behave. I can only be responsible for me. Thing is, when I start treating others better I get better interactions. Funny how that works. I recommend you try it for yourself. Take care.

noen

They paid for those works Takuan. Would they have existed without the religion in which they arose? I wonder. Anyway, it’s the best counter argument I can come up with at the moment.

Takuan

all the good that is said in the above is independent of the church. Some of the best christians I’ve met were heathens. Virtue is a human product, we should reward it, acknowledge it and own it. No priest or god tells me not to take what is not freely given, or kill just for fun.

If I see someone behaving virtuously, my thought is “thank him!” not “thank god!”.

Antinous

Please don’t tell me that you’re going to play the tired card again. I can’t take it anymore!

Spinobobot

I’m perhaps as atheistic as they come (I used to be an evangelical Dawkins-style atheist even), but after a few years of rabid anti-Christianity when I reached the age of reason and rejected my religious upbringing, I’ve come to have a more nuanced view of the matter. I think religion is on the whole, like most human institutions, a mixed bag.

Yes, it’s suppressed knowledge and progress and resulted in tons of needless suffering and death, but it also motivates millions of individuals to be happy and act kindly towards others. It’s also not the only major offender when it comes to crimes against humanity since there are plenty of (more or less) secular regimes guilty of genocide, wide-scale persecution, thought control and other nasty things.

I’m a far bigger fan of reason than faith (I happen to be a philosopher by trade), but it is probably true that most of the beliefs that most people have are not adequately supported by evidence, and that most of reasoning is rationalization anyway.

My point: let’s not paint religion, organized or otherwise, in broad brushstrokes, calling it hopelessly evil or what-have-you, especially if we disapprove of it for reasons like its simplistic black-and-white thinking and its hypocrisy.

(That said, I do think the Catholic Church as an institution is extremely blameworthy for its stance on birth control, which likely causes far more suffering than those more sensationalist pedophilia cases. Conversely, though, it deserves credit for opposing the unjust distribution of resources when many Protestant Churches, for example, are nervously looking the other way on that one.)

Takuan

The people paid. The church collected.

In any case, we can’t be arguing. You are sane.

justinlilly

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/12_04/popeEPA2512_468x799.jpg

Perhaps try selling your wardrobe of gold to stop the widening gap between the poor and rich.

scottfree

#117

sorry mate, I have a lot of respect for Catholics, actually; I think the theology is interesting, and I respect a lot of the work being done in south america, if not elsewhere, but come on, the church is inviting ridicule here. At a time when the church has a serious credibility issue, do you think it was really wise of them to bravely stand up to…the guy who dropped a candy wrapper? And help the poor? What if you /are/ poor? Just stand around and wait to be helped, then? Bit patronizing that, innit?

The church should stick to its guns, in my opinion, like the mystery and complexity of the faith, rather than go in for a cheap publicity stunt. They knew the press would pick this up as the new seven deadly sins, and they blew it by being lame.

Antinous

Some hits. Some misses. Four out of seven isn’t bad for the Vatican.

aelfscine

Excessive wealth is frowned on by the Catholic Church?? Wow, membership really must be declining!

They should add ‘Being Relevant in the 21st Century;’ that’s one thing we can be sure they’ll never do.

aluxeterna

I agree with IRREAL. If you think these newfangled things are sins (and I could go along with the last four, for sure) then you can simply assign each of them to the wider scope of the deadly sin(s) to which they correspond:

1. “Bioethical” violations such as birth control (LUST)

2. “Morally dubious” experiments such as stem cell research (PRIDE, probably GREED considering big Pharma would be the industry involved here)

3. Drug abuse (err…maybe GLUTTONY? The Church is on weak ground with drugs in general)

4. Polluting the environment (SLOTH, GREED, etc)

5. Contributing to widening divide between rich and poor (GREED)

6. Excessive wealth (MORE GREED)

7. Creating poverty (GREED YET AGAIN)

This comes across as just so much Vatican Marketing(TM).

Takuan

gotta use the broad brush. We are up against a huge, well funded, well defended, utterly ruthless propaganda machine that has had its way for centuries. Try using nuance and they’ll flood you.
Look at the archbishop beardy and the press circus.
They are recruiting the poor, uneducated and vulnerable. The only effective counter-propaganda is exposure of their most lurid crimes.

The Last Papist

Thanks Antinous, yes I just signed up to this site but did read the bulk of the 116 comments which are predominantly offensive to me and my religion. I just want people to just take a minute, forget it’s the Vatican and see that at least an organization as huge as the Catholic Church has taken a social stance many of the points having an elevated social awareness not yet seen coming out of similarly large religious organizations. They aren’t forcing their point of view on anyone. The Church clergy and religious leaders have made a mockery of it’s own doctrine’s and beliefs, but so have many of our Political leaders and Democracy still is upheld and believed to be the ideal form of government (I think ). Let’s not miss the forest for the trees.

The Last Papist

Thanks Antinous, yes I just signed up to this site but did read the bulk of the 116 comments which are predominantly offensive to me and my religion. I just want people to just take a minute, forget it’s the Vatican and see that at least an organization as huge as the Catholic Church has taken a social stance many of the points having an elevated social awareness not yet seen coming out of similarly large religious organizations. They aren’t forcing their point of view on anyone. The Church clergy and religious leaders have made a mockery of it’s own doctrine’s and beliefs, but so have many of our Political leaders and Democracy still is upheld and believed to be the ideal form of government (I think ). Let’s not miss the forest for the trees.

MarlboroTestMonkey7

Well, I think I have covered two or three of the new sins on my Boch-ian painting “The Return of the Blue Man”:
http://public.cwpanama.net/~ysanson/arte/arte1.html (last one to the right)

and a couple more on “Bad Roots”:
http://public.cwpanama.net/~ysanson/arte/arten.html (last one to the right, too)

-click on the + sign for greater detail-

still, I would have to work on a new ones for the bioethical stuff… said that, what will I win? The Vatican as a patron would be nice, absolution nicer.

csbmonkey

AH… *luxuriates in his sinful decrepitude*

I can’t believe they left off “Being a judgmental ass”. Oh… wait, never mind.

boringrick

I’m creating poverty by spending all my money on stupid things. And now I have Hell to look forward to. Oh life, you just keep getting better.

Earth Man

Whoa, the President manages to nail 3-7.
At the “expense” of 1 and 2, oddly enough.

The Lizardman

@ 133

OK, Antinous the phrase does mean what we both think it means after all.

However, I think you are misreading my comments horribly if that is what you see. I did not start with the conclusion there was no historical jesus, in fact just the opposite. To my mind it is the proponents of a historical jesus who start with their conclusion and cherry pick to support their position (which, as I stated, was once mine). I am not handpicking my facts, I am looking at all available evidence and subjecting it the same critieria most historical evidence is put to which is sadly something that rarely happens in matters involving religion and will often result in very negative consequences when it doesn’t meet the status quo

Takuan

I do not follow. Is the Vatican not the church?

“many of the points having an elevated social awareness not yet seen coming out of similarly large religious organizations”

So? maybe they are wrong too.

“They aren’t forcing their point of view on anyone.”

Converting the poor through indoctrination is use of unequal power. ie; Force.

“but so have many of our Political leaders and Democracy still is upheld and believed to be the ideal form of government”

I cannot agree, democracy is in grave peril and greatly weakened by the corruption and evil of our current “leaders”.

EncarnacionFlor

Takuan my dear,
First, thank you for (implicitly, at least) not painting ALL Christians with the EVIL!!!DIE IN A FIRE!!!11ty1 sprayer. Though they are my brothers and sisters, it doesn’t mean that it’s right to judge our whole family on their actions. I’m pretty sure you get that, and it’s nice that you do.
Just listened to all painful two minutes forty-nine seconds of what she had to say. If you still want to do pretty much what she did, but this time against Christians, here is your target, offer still stands. Although it is my brothers and sisters referred to above who should hear it so they’ll stop, I’m okay with taking it myself. Again, I promise, you won’t cause any wounds that can’t be healed, and I’ll still value you in agapao and phileo.
Have a good day!
Oh, offer is good for all here, but Takuan is on stone #1, ok?

scottfree

I must say, the new list is quite a bit more confusing. Didn’t the catholic church learn in school that scare quotes are ungrammatical? Now they should write it over a hundred times.

As regards this whole religious bit, Terry Eagleton wrote a good review of Dawkins /Delusion/ about a year ago that struck me as sensible. I’m not religious but I’m not sure all the same that the great evils of the church are intrinsic to its theology.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n20/eagl01_.html

Antinous

I think that Takuan’s point is that whether you’re nice or horrible has nothing to do with your religion, just your basic character.

Bionicrat2

I smell a sequel to a certain Brad Pitt/Morgan Freeman film…

The Last Papist

Takuan and Scottfree, I am not a theologian, but saying a christian can be a heathen sounds like an oxymoron to me. I also am not in a position to argue your concepts of god and the duty of the Catholic Church. What I can best explain is that if you do believe in God, then all that matters is that we have to learn to love one another, which is basically what all the sins highlighted by the Vatican show us where that love fails. If I am poor, then if we love one another, someone will be there to help me until I can help myself. Oooo am I sounding like Oprah now???? God Help Me!!!!!!!

g.park

“Democracy does protect my feelings, I think that’s part of the constitution or the emancipation proclamation isn’t it? ”
Emancipation Proclamation: http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/featured_documents/emancipation_proclamation/
Constitution: http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution.html

When you find the passages detailing what topics are unacceptable for rational debate between private citizens, please post them here so we’ll all be sure what’s off limits.

“sorry I am Catholic, if I were anything else, you’d be forced to be politically correct.”

Wrong again, friend. If you came in here stating that the only paths to salvation were through the avoidance of grape skins and haircuts (provisions of the 613 Mitvot of Orthodox Judaism) you’d be equally trounced for superstition and nonsense.

tim

So breeding dogs/sheep/cattle or trying to develop a new plant cultivar – all of which is DNA experiments – is wrong now?

Takuan

an interesting essay, if too wordy. Here’s the only bit in there:

“The central doctrine of Christianity, then, is not that God is a bastard. It is, in the words of the late Dominican theologian Herbert McCabe, that if you donâ€™t love youâ€™re dead, and if you do, theyâ€™ll kill you.”

My own doctrine is: “it’s hopeless, but you fight anyway”. Don’t need jesus or popes for that.
Now, why is it that I have conspicuously failed to butcher millions in an attempt to enslave the planet?

I think it’s because I’m honest. And them priests ain’t.

Daemon

I’m entirely in favor of #4-7. #3 depends on the definitions of the words “drug” and “abuse”.

#1 – ok, now they’re double-dipping. it’s a sin to have sex for non-reproductive reasons AND to use birth control? two sins in one! (well, four, if you count that doctrine where you sin once by deciding to do something, then again by actually doing it…)

#2 – how on earth can it be a major sin to do something “morally dubious”? being morally dubious means the jury’s still out on whether or not it’s immoral.

spencerh79

Will dead catholics, like Jesus, be grandfathered in to this new sinning regime? Does anyone know if the cross was made of reclaimed wood? Or did Peter use gill nets? Wasting potable water by turning into wine anyone?

Cpt. Tim

I hope they realize their saviors blood is chock full of the most abused drug on the planet.

g.park

So did God just not see these problems coming when He came up with the original sin list?

Oh wait, it’s all made up by celibate weirdos in strange costumes. I almost forgot for a second.

Kid

My new 7 Deadly Sins after reading the Bible, corresponding to the original 7:

1. Pride -> Memes

2. Envy -> Squirrels

3. Gluttony -> Caffeine

4. Lust -> Porn

5. Anger -> Trolling

6. Greed -> Goatse

7. Sloth -> Youtube

noen

You have no right to not be offended by the opinions of others. “They aren’t forcing their point of view on anyone.” This is absurd.

Takuan

christian is as christian does. I’ve met many, many christians that do evil every day in every way. I’ve met heathens and infidels that live cleanly, kindly, honourably. Clearly, the man, not the label, is what counts.

(a note of apology to half the human race but I am stylistically bound to refer to humanity by the masculine in general by way of being trapped in self-inflicted codgertude. You know what I mean.)

I need no god to love or be loved.

Takuan

self-righteousness?

Peter Gasston

The Vatican claim that excessive wealth is a sin? Um… have they seen St Peter’s and the Cistine Chapel? Maybe they mean excessive compared to themselves – which would create maybe four new sinners.

Anselm

G. Park-

Oh wait, it’s all made up by celibate weirdos in strange costumes. I almost forgot for a second.

You mean gamers? Gamers came up with this?

(sorry, couldn’t resist…)

The Lizardman

@ 2

If they were as irrelevant as they should be, the world would be a much better place and we wouldn’t even bother making the obvious jokes about this list. Sadly, they still have a great deal of wealth and influence which doesn’t look to be going away soon enough.

g.park

@Anselm-

Not all cosplayers are gamers and not all gamers are cosplayers!

Will the prejudice ever end?

Kid

That’s nothing more than getting the popular votes by mixing some general views that most agree (like not polluting the environment, creating poverty) and inserting some conservative views (stem cell research).

I don’t know what God thinks about the Vatican adding these laws by themselves. Did God ever appoint them as His spokesperson in the first place? That was why the Protestants took place, right?

noen

Takuan – “In any case, we can’t be arguing. You are sane.”

Huh? Is debate better then? Because to me to argue means to debate. So I am sort of playing “Devil’s advocate” here, if you pardon the pun. Ideally it would be nice to “argue” without everyone getting bent out of shape over it. And yeah, I can be a hot head too, I’ve been working on doing better.

Re: Religion, I’m in the Spinobobot camp. I believe in science ‘n stuff but I have doubts about my doubts. I can’t help it, it’s how I am. When ever I come across someone with different beliefs I always think “Humm.. what if they are right?”

Re: Antinous – “playing the tired card. Nope, not gonna. That’s why it’s bedtime for me starting now….

Antinous

G Park,

Who says that Anselm is referring to cosplay in response to weird costumes? At least my tunic and hip boots fit.

Santa’s Knee

@10: SCAdians

Roach

I’m probably the closest thing you get here to a rabid true believer, as I think the list is pretty great but also don’t mind the abuse of my Church when it’s warranted.

Watch out for reporting on the Vatican or Vatican officials (this is not an official pronouncement, by the way, just one guy in an interview); it’s almost always wrong, mistranslated or misunderstood. This one seems to have even more variance than most. No one seems to agree on what the seven sins are, or even if there are seven – some have no numbering at all.

There’re at least four different varieties on the subject of pedophilia, too, since it came up in many of the comments. The original post doesn’t mention it in the list, which is odd. A few do that, and a few just have it as one on the list. The BBC and the AP go into more detail:

The BBC is openly hostile, as above: “He also named abortion and paedophilia as two of the greatest sins of our times. The archbishop brushed off cases of sexual violence against minors committed by priests as “exaggerations by the mass media aimed at discrediting the Church”.

The AP has “Closer to home, Girotti was asked about the many “situations of scandal and sin within the church,” in what appeared to be a reference to allegations in the United States and other countries of sexual abuse by clergy of minors and the coverups by hierarchy.

The monsignor acknowledged the “objective gravity” of the allegations, but contended that the heavy coverage by mass media of the scandals must also be denounced because it “discredits the church.”"

I’d like to see a direct translation instead of soundbites, since lack of context never helped anyone except the news media, but very little gets translated. Oh, for primary sources…

Kyle Goetz

@94: I promise you that if scientists attained the level of power that the Church had in preceding centuries or that politicians/dictators do now, that we’d be seeing scientists commit crimes against humanity in give-or-take the same proportion.

Also, really, you’ve never heard of Dr. Eduard Wirths? What about the Nazi human experimentation? I’d say those were scientists, albeit horrible human beings. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_human_experimentation

Takuan

definitely more sense than me…

Antinous

That’s nothing more than getting the popular votes by mixing some general views that most agree (like not polluting the environment, creating poverty) and inserting some conservative views (stem cell research).

That would be how the Catholic Church works in Latin America. Liberation theology been effective for decades, and yet, evangelicals are making more converts by selling the social repression without the fiscal activism. Go figure. At least the Vatican made drunk driving a sin a few years back.

mrfitz

God’s a fool for making all those pharmaceutical plants.

Vatican comes up with a new list of Seven Sins

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