Tibet: China blocks YouTube, protests spread, bloggers react
* Above left: phonecam snapshots of protests in Amdo, Tibet, over the weekend; at right, phonecam video of the same.
* According to Shanghaiist (and now, mainstream news outlets), YouTube was blocked in China over the weekend, likely because of content related to the flood of pro-Tibetan-sovereignty protests in Tibet and elsewhere:
International news channels such as CNN and BBC are also getting routinely blacked out. While we think this is a really poor way to deal with all the shit that's going on, we have been there many, many times, and survived. Time to turn on your VPN again, people! An* John Kennedy at Global Voices confirms the YouTube block:
As Tibet transitioned into total lockdown and videos of the violent situation proliferated on YouTube, people began noticing Saturday afternoon in China that the video-sharing website could not be accessed. Tech blogger Rick Martin on the CNET Asia Little Red Blog has done some tests which confirm what many have assumed:
* Rebecca McKinnon at Global Voices has an excellent roundup of reactions in the Chinese blogosphere:
For those living in the West who didn't realize that there's little sympathy for Tibet independence among ethnic Chinese in the PRC, this blog post on Global Voices will be a shocker. John Kennedy has translated chatter from Chinese blogs and chatrooms that generally runs along the lines of: those ungrateful minorities, we give them modern conveniences and look how they thank us... where have we heard this before? Reuters has a roundup on the Washington Post that begins: "a look at Chinese blogs reveals a vitriolic outpouring of anger and nationalism directed against Tibetans and the West." (...)* On Friday, protest in the Tibetan capital, Lhasa, erupted into violence when police, army troops, and ethnic Tibetan demonstrators clashed. Some accounts place the death toll at 30, some at 100, some at 300. It's hard to separate rumor from truthful first-hand account, and hard to know exactly how many have been killed or injured, because communication in the region is so difficult. Foreign journalists are not allowed in, unaccompanied by official escorts. Internet and phone communications are routinely blocked by Chinese authorities when unrest occurs; some blogging tourists in Lhasa wanting to upload photos of what they witnessed have reported the presence of authorities inside 'net cafes. Pro-Tibetan-sovereignty sites like TCHRD, SFT, and Phayul are posting first-person accounts online. Some of those reports are difficult to independently confirm, given the circumstances. The website of the Central Tibetan Administration (part of the government in exile, led by the Dalai Lama, based in India) posts this update."Davesgonechina" at the Tenement Palm blog has been translating the chatter coming from Chinese netizens on Fanfou and Jiwai - Chinese versions of Twitter. Click here, here, and here, specifically. Dave has done more than translate: he points out that this Tibet situation is a real challenge to all people who believe that the Internet can help foster free speech and bring about better global understanding. Here is his challenge to all of us...
* The unrest spread this weekend to regions outside Lhasa: police and protesters also clashed in China's Sichuan and Qinghai provinces, and Gansu province, all of which have large ethnic Tibetan populations. On Saturday...
Demonstrations erupted for the second consecutive day in the city of Xiahe in Gansu Province, where an estimated 4,000 Tibetans gathered near the Labrang Monastery. Local monks had held a smaller protest on Friday, but the confrontation escalated Saturday afternoon, according to witnesses and Tibetans in India who spoke with protesters by telephone.* China's government has declared a "people's war" against the Tibetan independence movement, in "propaganda and security" measures, and has implemented what amounts to martial law in Lhasa.Residents in Xiahe, reached by telephone, heard loud noises similar to gunshots or explosions. A waitress described the scene as “chaos” and said many injured people had been sent to a local hospital.
"Fight a people's war to oppose separatism and protect stability ... expose and condemn the malicious actions of these forces and expose the hideous face of the Dalai clique to broad daylight," senior regional and security officials announced after a meeting, according to the official Tibet Daily on Sunday.* China's governor in Tibet promises harsh consequences for protest participants who do not turn themselves in by Tuesday.
* Speaking to reporters today in Dharamsala, India, the home of the Tibetan Government in Exile, the Dalai Lama called for an international inquiry into the current human rights conditions in Tibet.
''Whether intentionally or unintentionally, some kind of cultural genocide is taking place,'' said the Dalai Lama, the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader. He was referring to China's policy of encouraging the ethnic Han majority to migrate to Tibet, restrictions on Buddhist temples and re-education programs for monks.* George Bush removed China from a human rights blacklist just three days before the bloodshed in Lhasa.
UPDATE: Boing Boing reader Adam writes,
I am visiting Beijing on business, and staying at a hotel that caters to Westerners. There have been reports that China was loosening controls on the media ahead of the Olympic games, in order to give visitors the impression that the media is unrestricted, but that is not the case in the last day.* Reports estimate that 20,000 Chinese troops have now been deployed to Lhasa (thanks, Christal).While watching CNN in my hotel room, the station goes dark during the top-of-the-hour news flash on the riots, then returns when the synopsis of "what's to come" is given about other stories, and then goes dark again while the coverage switches to Lhasa.
Coverage returns with the anchor asking users to send in their first-hand reports to ireport.com, after all mention of the incident is over. Same results for BBC as well.
The China Daily newspaper I grabbed from the lounge has a small article on the bottom of the front page, titled "Dalai Lama behind sabotage", and states that his "clique" has "organized, premeditated, and masterminded" the beatings, looting, and arson, which "has aroused the indignation of, and is strongly condemned by, the people of all ethnic groups in Tibet."
* UPDATE 2 (8pm PT Sunday March 16): BB reader Nick Dobson says,
Besides Youtube, it appears The Guardian and Boingboing have been added to the blocked list in China. ([I'm in] Suzhou, Jiangsu, China)
That's it. I'm boycotting the Beijing Olympics.
What's the difference between 1959 and 2008? This is depressing.
And how many months from now are we all supposed to develop amnesia and applaud China's government at the Olympics?
Besides the gag orders, the censorshp, the violence, the crackdowns, are we just to be impressed by the big shiny buildings and wonderful public displays?
WTF is China's problem?
They (government, not necessarily the people) are always pulling dumb crap like the above. The internet chatter from the people of 'those ungrateful minorities' is probably going to turn around to 'f*ck the government' now that China has turned off YouTube.
Also, what is with China contributing massively to that big pile of toxic trash in the ocean? They are saying in these articles that a large percentage of the of the trash has Chinese writing all over it. Yeah, I know we all contributed to that major screwup but China sure did more than its part in screwing over the environment.
China's government = FAIL. They need to step down before the people realize they're bigger than them and step up.
Chinese people, please make ur guvvernmints to stop ruining teh wurld, and has a cheezburger with no cardboards in teh meatz. In return we will try make our guvvernmints do teh same, kthxbai.
I'd like to say I'm boycotting the Olympics because of this, but then I can't recall watching any of the previous 3 or 4 Olympics (Hell-- I don't even know where they were held), so I can't honestly say this will effect my viewer-support of the Olympics.
The fact that ethnic Chinese aren't concerned and are more angry at "ungrateful" Tibetans should serve as a mirror to our own past in the west-- pretty much every country that was colonized by Europeans went through a similar phase of anger at "ungrateful" natives who didn't want "civilization.")
Weren't the first deaths caused by rioters who burned shops and people? Focusing all of the blame on China seems simplistic.
WTF is China's problem?
China's goal is to take over the earth and eradicate all non-Chinese. If you think that's histrionic, you haven't been paying attention for the last five decades. There is no more racist and chauvinistic nation in the world. China has nukes and absolutely no morals, ethics or compassion. They've been pushing the human rights envelope for decades while we followed a policy of appeasement. Their economy, military and world standing have grown immeasurably while their human rights record has grown worse. We've fed the monster and it will tear us limb from limb.
For anyone who wants to understand the complexities, I highly recommend two articles that are very critical of both sides:
From the Atlantic Monthly, Tibet Through Chinese Eyes.
And Michael Parenti's Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth.
I was in Lhasa last summer for a while and the Chinese military presence was overwhelming. When you look outside your hotel, they've got soldiers doing drills 30 feet away. Soldiers on every street corner, and police pretty much everywhere else.
When I talked to Chinese people in Beijing and Xining, and Lhasa, they didn't understand why the rest of the world wanted Tibet to be free. They honestly believed that they were saving the Tibetan nation (at least the civilians did). They thought that China was doing Tibet a favour by bringing industry to the nation, since one of the few exports is Yak related stuff (meat, clothing, rugs etc).
Boycott then.
Regarding poster #7, there is some truth to what you say. Although I have met many Chinese, and in fact have three close friends who were born in China, the fact remains that China is very much out to take and hold the position the US has enjoyed this last 15 years or so.
Humans in general are so susceptible to demagoguery and manipulation, but China exemplifies this to a cult-like extreme. Again, I reflect on stories told to me by friends who actually lived through such wonderful times as the Cultural Revolution, or another favorite: Mao declared Sparrows and Mosquitoes to be "evil". Adults and children alike took to the streets banging pots and pans to drive the poor birds to exhaustion from constant flight away from the noise. The bird's bodies were then rendered to local posts for accounting. Villages that had the highest counts were rewarded with extra rations of meat and such. Of course, there is the whole Communist thing, more of Mao's insanity, this new wholesale shift to "wealth accumulation" at any cost whatsoever. They are a billion-headed automaton. Furthermore, the Chinese are fiercely Nationalistic. This pride will override all common sense and free thought in pursuit of "respect".
Given the sad, sad behavior of the US, we've pretty much inspired the Chinese to follow in our footsteps of domination. Unfortunately, as bad as the US has been, China will be much, much worse.
To paraphrase my Chinese friend, "China is a sociopath. It's once beautiful soul has long ago died".
Btw, your CAPTCHA is practically unusable.
I suppose some utility will have to be developed to help people more easily find and select products not made in China. I imagine something already exists but there is five months to make one of them a household word.
One side issue to the good then; I have become increasingly concerned about the sheer volume of counterfeit products coming out of China that are inherently dangerous because of forged standards markings. For instance; electrical circuit breakers bearing false UL/CSA/CE ratings being installed in new construction of hospitals. Would you want your life support on such?
Pro-Tibet riots spread as Lhasa in lockdown
Benjamin Kang Lim and Chris Buckley, Reuters Published: Sunday, March 16, 2008
Tibetan capital quiet after Chinese show of force
Jonathan Kay: The double standard on China and Tibet
China sets 'surrender' deadline in Tibet
Tibetans in India seethe with anger at China crackdown
Tibet's government has declared a "people's war" to erase support for the Dalai Lama and end any independence aspirations of the people there, Chinese state media said, saying the blitz will involve both security and propaganda campaigns to counter the message of the exiled Buddhist spiritual leaderAFP/Getty ImagesTibet's government has declared a "people's war" to erase support for the Dalai Lama and end any independence aspirations of the people there, Chinese state media said, saying the blitz will involve both ...
BEIJING -- Rioting erupted in a province neighbouring Tibet on Sunday, two days after violent protests by Tibetans against Chinese rule in Lhasa that the region's exiled representatives said had killed 80 people.
"They've gone crazy," said a police officer in Aba county, Sichuan, one of four provinces with large Tibetan populations, her voice trembling down the telephone even as the main government building there came under siege.
I am correct in suspecting this is the same Chinese government that I'm supposed to feel all so good about having the tacit internationally recognized approval of building something like 300 dirty coal fired energy plants according to the Kyoto Agreement?
I hope they have a wonderful Olympics..alone, except for the huge parasitic beaurocracy of communist party officials with their families and sexual escorts who will be there free of charge. Oh, and the 30 thousand dead each year from mining accidents...well, their families can watch with pride China and her friends win all the medals..since no other country with any self respect will be going at the rate at which they are being exposed for what they are in fact attempting to do.
Oh, and Tibet? Well, it will be a wonderful place to mine from environmentally responsible open pits, strategic materials and to equip their ever growing high tech defense forces to protect them from all the countries that are trying to invade them...though I can't think of any at the moment...and with which they can build even more and bigger sky scrapers to house their shell corporations.
If they really wanted more energy, they should hook a motor to Mao's body which no doubt is spinning happily in its grave.
Regarding Will Shetterly's second link, India was pretty bad off in terms of oppression when the British took over. Tibet wasn't a shining pillar of morality, but that fails to defend Chinese Colonialism any more than Saddam Hussein's Iraq being totalitarian defends the US invasion.
This whole "critical of both sides" viewpoint is not really going to help resolve things. China is being colonialist, and is violently and lethally crushing any form of dissent. They'll keep doing it as long as it takes. The Tienanmen square massacre shows that it's not even an ethnic issue. Any form of dissent that shames the Chinese ruling party is met with lethal force. Chinese citizens are taught that this s a good, and proper response. They're taught from childhood that the ruling party has the right and responsibility to kill anyone who it deems a threat.
This is what billions of Chinese are being taught. This is Maoism in action.
If these are the people the Olympic comity has decide were worthy of holding the Olympics, I'm not interested in watching. I'll send a letter to all US athletes asking them not to go, or if they do, to protest.
I hope someone other than me remembers the Black Power Olympic protests
There simply isn't a whole lot of difference between the major world powers. Just the luck of the genetic lottery puts us somewhere. From the beginning of the human earth interface we have been a dual species. Like same but different spins. Spin in service of other or spin in service of self. Neither can really understand the other. I simply cannot conceive of the notion that it is enjoyable to profit from pain. Mine or any sentient beings. If China wants to get some face going they got to grow up.
They're taught from childhood that the ruling party has the right and responsibility to kill anyone who it deems a threat.
I've been stewing on this in between crying jags. China is Marxist-Leninist-Maoist in form, but simply tribalist in content. Communists are supposed to take over the world and make everybody Communist. That's just the basic ideology. It's pretty similar to evangelical Christianity or radical Islam in this sense.
In the classical commie model (or the Christian/Muslim model), anyone can be converted and enter the clique. In reality, Communism has tended to be about spreading one's own ethnicity around the globe. The Russians did it, seeding ethnic Russian technocrats throughout their empire. The Chinese have done it in various parts of East Asia. The problem with ethnic imperialism is that you can never be converted and become part of the clique because you just don't have the DNA.
I also believe that the Soviets were a lot more ideology driven than the Chinese. Greed and corruption seem to be the driving forces in Chinese politics in a way that most countries can't rival. Promotion of self, then family, then clan, then ethnicity is antithetical to Communist values, yet is the national ethos. Complicating this is the absolute disregard for humanity.
In most of the world, human life has no value. Humans outside one's own family or tribe are just commodities to be used for profit until they're dead. China not only has one of the worst national ideologies vis-a-vis human rights, it's one of the largest nations on earth. Bad combination.
I don't mean to suggest that there's anything wrong with Chinese people. And I really hope that nobody starts fire-bombing the local dim sum restaurant. But it is the national culture in China at this time, in the same way that Nazism was the national culture in Germany during the holocaust. Germans, mostly, woke up from their self-inflicted national nightmare (with a little help) and are a largely positive force in the world. Hopefully China will do the same.
Sky Burial , An epic love story of Tibet By Xinran may give some insight into into the brain washing. The political mind of China has been sucked into the same notion as liberating Muslims. From what? For what? Why bother? I don't want to be liberated is never considered. Gonna kill you for your own good puts food on the table of the person in uniform. Also stimulates the global economy. Nothing like a useless War to get the money flowing. The middle way is the only way to our future. Much harder than using the hammer of death. Quit taking the easy way.
I really don't see it as anything but a grab of the natural resources of the Treasure House of the West.
Tibet is rich. Or was rich
The Chinese just see Tibetans as sitting on all that metal, oil, timber etc.
www.boycottmadeinchina.org is an excellent resource for anyone interested in a boycott of chinese-made goods.
The world is perfect as it is.
Well of course if we really wanted to hurt China we would have to boycott Chinese made goods, which is realistically now impossible, as I type this on a Chinese made computer (Apple) sitting on a Chinese made chair, no doubt lit by a Chinese made light bulb! We have made ourselves dependent on cheap goods which are supplied by an effectively enslaved under-paid workforce. We have only ourselves to blame for Chinese economic power in the world. As of June 2006, Chinese ownership of U.S. securities totaled $699 billion, making China the 2nd largest foreign holder of U.S. securities (after Japan). To read more on the implications of this see http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/99496.pdf
You can bet that there will be no official US reaction to the behaviour of China in Tibet!!!
whoo! quite the text here in Rangzen's link, will have to read it more carefully but a skim makes it clear it's a comprehensive summary
http://www.boycottmadeinchina.org/downloads/dragontext.pdf
May I just interject that there are many upsides to not buying crap that you don't actually need? Like not being poor, not creating landfill, not cluttering up your own house, not ingesting lead and pesticides. It is demonstrably hard to live without buying any Chinese made goods. However, cutting consumption by 5% would still be a devastating boycott. It doesn't have to be all or nothing to make a point.
The world is perfect as it is.
Apparently you found your third pill. And it was a lude.
Noen:
The only cure for misery is to help someone else.
Yes Antinous, exactly that.
I WILL do the work. It is not much work, I will do it.
Time to closely read some labels.
# 21 Sigh. I blew a big bang and lost perfection with the Quarks. Just too many variables. Never could get this creation stuff right, Need your help. If perfection includes unnecessary pain the concept of perfect sucks big time. Happy delusions. Tibet as a focus of love has been easy. Gets your mind off of Washington. The devil is in the church. Course that doesn't bother perfect people.
fancy a Guineas?
#7: That viewpoint seems a bit extreme, and goes almost directly against thousands of years of Chinese history.
For almost as long as it has existed, China has been one of, if not *the* most introverted civilizations on the planet. Although I'm sure that the communist government has done a great deal of "cultural engineering," I simply don't foresee any sort of massive world conquest.
My hypothesis is that the communist government is playing things by the book. Marx predicted that every civilization will go through a period of successful capitalistic growth. The Chinese government is currently allowing this to happen, milking the country's vast supply of cheap labor in the process. Once the balance of trade even remotely begins to shift against China, they'll close their doors, and begin to focus inward once again.
Marxist theory, and the remainder of China's history as a civilization both predict this.
@21 Noen
What a load of privileged bullshit!Last I checked we're grappling with scarcity; in many places fundamental scarcity like food, potable water, and shelter from the elements. Unless you've got a Star Trek replicator or a way to convert the naturally existing heavy water into a sustainably controlled fusion reaction, our world is far from perfect.
Zuzu,
I think that was a mantra, not a statement of fact.
Boycott the Olympics? Hell no!
The country is going to be filled with the world's media and hundreds of thousands of spectators bearing all sorts of gadgety goodness. There's no way that the the Games are not going to expose all sorts of totalitarian nonsense. Watching the Government try to cover it up is going to be more entertaining than watching the athletes wheeze and compete!
if the Games go on , Beijing will have something to spin, if the Olympic venues stand empty - they won't be able to hide that.
(Pa)Zuzu;
http://www.virtuescience.com/pazuzu.jpg
You had to have been there, Noen needs a bum pat, not an ass kick right now.
this looks valuable (from the links referred in the item)
http://tenementpalm.blogspot.com/2007/04/engaging-chinese-people-quick-and-dirty.html
#29 . I feel deeply honored with the notion that we can be in each others physical space as friends. The simple truth is that I am alone in my love . I don't see this as a problem. Reading your posts on this forum has convinced me that you have an active brain. That is a problem for The Bush world. Permission has been given from the highest levels of control for the next demonstration to be suppressed, as if it were a local in your face gathering in Washington. The healthy emotional response is to say no. We got a load of ignorance that makes money. Probably will work for China. Don't buy into any thought that we are evolving. Learn to plant stuff.
The real question is, not
What's China's problem..." Its what the United States problem is. We are quick to stomp into a country and declare democracy, yet we have not ( as a government) lifted a finger to help out Tibet in the last 60 years since China has sporadically wreaked total genocide on a population. China is in Tibet illegally,...and what is our government going to do about it. NOTHING, why...because there is no oils in the blood of monks.
Boycott the Western corporations sponsoring the Olympics.
1.Get list of Olympic sponsors.
2.Write letters stating that they're being boycotted for aligning themselves with an oppressive totalitarian government oppressing the Tibetan people (and more besides).
3.???
4.World Peace
I was thinking more of slopping nut brown nectar all over the keyboard - as is my wont. Cheers!
if the Games go on , Beijing will have something to spin, if the Olympic venues stand empty - they won't be able to hide that.
The games are going on with or without a boycott. For every televised event, there are dozens of non-televised ones, so they can fill air time with archery trials if they have to. As for empty venues...if there's one thing that China is not lacking, it's people to fill the stands.
What would happen if athletes took off their jackets at the opening ceremony to reveal Free Tibet tee shirts? I almost believe that the army would open fire on them. Realistically, a lot of athletes will wear pro-Tibet garb throughout the two weeks. Will they be detained and harassed? Is China capable of resisting the temptation to repress someone who gets on their nerves? They have yet to demonstrate that kind of restraint.
Does anyone have a clue how to buy electronics that don't have significant MIC (Made In China) content?
I'm in full agreement with Antinous @24 that not buying crap you don't need is the best way to go, and buying non-Chinese equivalents is frequently possible. But not so with electronics, which for some of us are necessities of life--not toys but business and scientific tools, as necessary to the good we try to do in the world as a hammer is to a carpenter's.
It seems to me that a good place to start with the whole boycotting China thing might be to starting writing Dell, Toshiba, HP, Motorola, et al and asking them for certified non-Chinese products.
I would happily pay more for non-Chinese electronics, but as near as I can tell they simply aren't available at any price.
The purpose of an economic boycott is to coalesce an effect that is clearly evident in a drop in overall revenues to China, but not necessarily attributable to any precise sector or product.
What a boycott tries to achieve is a shift in consumer attitude. Even if Chinese products are unavoidable, the timing of the the purchasing decision is still significant. Our complex global economic life is also vulnerable to when things happen, not just if they do finally happen. Money is always lent and borrowed at interest. Delays in moving product because your customer is exhausting other avenues has just as much impact as them not buying at all.
At least the Olympics provide China with an incentive to shape up...not the best reason to...but at least they're trying to de-pollute and such.
I agree that when a full boycott is not possible a partial boycott will do, but it is important to commit as fully as is possible.
As far as electronics go, I have not checked recently but LG products used to be entirely Korean made with Korean componentry. I know that doesn't help with computers and the like, but it's a start.
By SOMINI SENGUPTA and HARI KUMAR
Published: March 16, 2008
MCLEODGANJ, India — The Dalai Lama said Sunday that he would not instruct his followers inside Tibet to surrender before Chinese authorities, and he described feeling “helpless” in preventing what he feared could be an imminent blood bath.
“I do feel helpless,” he said in response to a question at a wide-ranging, emotionally charged news conference here in what has served as the headquarters of the Tibetan government in exile for nearly 40 years. “I feel very sad, very serious, very anxious. Cannot do anything,”
They're only trying to "de-pollute and such" precisely because they have won the Olympic contract. Otherwise they wouldn't give a damn whether their people are breathing fresh air or not.
I'm boycotting. It's hard to figure out exactly how to go about it (very smart people like Takuan help), but I will do what I can. I'm starting today.
Yur, dat's me, "I am so smart! I am so smart! "S" "M" "R" "T"! I am so smart!"
You know, it comes off as trolling doesn't it? It was not my intent. This... position that "the world is already perfect" is one that I am advised by certain people in my life to consider, to think about and possibly to adopt.
And so I put it out there because I see places like this as a space in which one can try on different ideas like you might try on a coat, see if it fits you. I'm a visual person, I literally visualized putting on a coat. Also, because I can be a bit of a drama queen sometimes, I tend towards stark statements. The single sentence "The world is perfect as it is" surrounded by white space sort satisfied my personal aesthetic.
The irony is that "The world is perfect as it is" is a very Buddhist concept and seemed appropriate to the subject at hand. But as I understand it it does not mean assuming a lotus position, rolling your eyes into the back of your head and tuning out the world. It means accepting the world for what it is, not as we might wish it to be. Nor does it advocate passivity, far from it. It's saying that if you wish to be effective in the world you need to come from a place of acceptance.
It is ineffective to be in a constantly reactive stance, careening from trauma to trauma. Whether it is the current troubles in Tibet or Darfur or Chiapas or wherever the latest horror is. If we really want to help we need to see the totality of the situation and to do that we need to remove our own prejudices. We need to come from a place of detached engagement if we truly wish to make a difference. Simply reacting in horror "Those horrible Chinese! Nuke 'em!" will only perpetuate the very things we say we want to eliminate.
When you love someone you accept them for who they are warts and all, the good and the bad. "Love does not alter when it alteration finds". If you love the world then you accept it as it is and it's all beautiful. All of it. When you say yes to the world this is what you are doing and you had damn well better be aware of that.
It is a beginning, a first step, but a necessary one. So yeah, it's a bad thing what is happening in Tibet. I don't know that boycotting the Olympics will help. I'm pretty sure that romanticizing the Tibetans and demonizing the Chinese won't help. I wish I knew.
Shut up. This is a serious issue. All the inside interwebs jokes are played like 8-ball jackets. Joker.
Let us, then, keep it as simple and straight forward as possible: We want the Chinese government to stop killing Tibetans. The Chinese army has huge numbers and guns. The protesting Tibetans have their voices and maybe rocks.
First Objective: NO MORE KILLING! STOP KILLING!
If we can convince the Chinese government to immediately stop the use of lethal force, then perhaps dialog may follow.
NO KILLING!
Ah-ight!
China: STOP KILLING PEOPLE!
You are not going to achieve your goals that way. Learn from the past. It has never worked in history and it will not work now.
(Oh shit, am I on some list now?)
Those horrible Chinese! Nuke 'em!
Appealing as that sounds at first, most people in China aren't really having happy fun time. Slavery exists on a mass scale in the provinces. Most people are impoverished. Food and water and air are poisoned. But the peasantry holds the same hateful mindset as the party leaders. The eventual collapse of the economy will sharpen the contradictions, fascism will grow worse for a while, then - either nuclear war or things will get better.
@40
What makes you think it's the Chinese that's going to be doing the repression? UK is voluntarily doing that for China already.
The Chinese don't have to do anything. The Western government will kowtow for because they don't want to anger their multinational corporate masters that are reliant on the cheap Chinese labor.
The Chinese handling of Tibet is a lot like it's handling of its own environment.
According to the Foreign Affairs journal, China is out of control in polluting their country to the point that there are 1000 protests a week. If Red China doesn't turn Green it will have an epic environmental disaster on its hands. Greed and corruption in China, like it exists elsewhere, are the perfect conditions for pollution. On any given day, 25% of the pollution in Los Angeles blows over the ocean from China.
In Tibet, greed and corruption are taking their toll as well. In an effort to exploit resources and grow economically, they are ruining life for Tibetans.
The Chinese plan has been proven already: in Southeast Asia, Laos, Cambodia, Laos, Indonesia, they go in and create infrastructure, control it, and then run the country economically. They are now expanding this trick in Africa. Yes, they are helping poor countries with new roads, etc, but their motivation is for money and resources.
What makes you think it's the Chinese that's going to be doing the repression?
I saw that bit about the UK. It's been interesting to watch the UK giving blowjobs to repressive regimes since Tony Blair got in. I was hoping that Brown would be better, but it's not looking good so far.
The US has taken a marginally more lenient stance on political expression at the games. Of course, US athletes are pumped so full of steroids, you'd have to be mad to get in their way.
Those are bold statements, but most are true as far as I know (I've traveled to China quite a few times and have done business with Chinese organizations--which of course does not make me, in any way, an expert)
"Slavery exists on a mass scale in the provinces." Slavery?
You never heard about the brick factories? One factory had hundreds of slaves, malnourished, nearly naked, covered with burns from the kilns. Many of them didn't even know their own names because they had been enslaved as children. Some of them couldn't even speak. Even the Chinese officials admitted their suspicions that there were many such operations in far-flung rural areas. Slavery.
No, I had not heard about the brick factories. That's horrifying. Maybe your posting it here on BB might have an effect somewhere. We know that the Chinese government knows about it. Let's hope.
Eh... before posting your angry comments, can we at least try to find out whats going on first? Here is an eyewitness account from the Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/15/tibet.china2
It looks like we have verified reports of tibetans killing han and muslim chinese, torching and looting their stores. Meanwhile, we still do not have a single independent report of abuse from the Chinese military/police so far. Soldiers killing random people on the streets? Nope. The tibetan rioters did that, though.
The Chinese government did a lot of wrongs to Tibet (and other parts of China as well), but in this case, I suspect it is the rioters should be condemned. Car burning is not a very effective way to improve human rights in Tibet/China.
Reading the China-bashing comments here makes me feel like two wrongs can indeed make a right.
::hug::
Yes. Though, as others said, this isn't a matter of commanding China to stop, so much as giving Chinese people good reasons to not join the PLA or to not believe people telling them that they need to kill other people "for the good of their country"."Don't fight forces; use them." as R. Buckminster Fuller said.
." Meanwhile, we still do not have a single independent report of abuse from the Chinese military/police so "
see all those links in blue? over the past three threads? follow them and read them. It is obvious you haven't
The situation is chaotic. Based on past experience, my best guess now a minimum of 50 to as high as one hundred Tibetans killed by Chinese guns.
We may never know. What we DO know is China REFUSES to let the world see what is happening.
We all know WHY.
Crab,
Of course the Tibetans are killing Chinese. That's what happens in uprisings and revolutions. The Chinese have killed as many as a million Tibetans since the occupation. Chinese in Lhasa are settler colonists. When you settle in somebody else's country and start swaggering around, stealing their shit, you have tattooed a bullseye on your own forehead.
Okay, this is preposterous. I have stayed out of the fray since I was vilified as a troll when this first hit Boing Boing.
Let me preface this by saying my BA is in Asian Studies--emphasis on Chinese history. Granted, it's just a bachelor's, but I'm not speaking from a position of abject ignorance.
The Chinese government responds brutally to dissent. They understand how dangerous it is, being that they were created by dissent. The KMT were kicked out of China down to Taiwan simply because Mao was able to rally the support of the rural farmers who felt like they were being used by the current regime (they were). They have always done so, and I don't expect them to ever stop. Remember that China is simply a very old collection of individual states forcibly incorporated, mostly during the Han Dynasty. This activity is par for the course. The new boss is always the same as the old boss.
That being said, and this was wholly misconstrued last time I said it, Chinese governments, when operating at capacity, are very good about raising the standard of living for the entire gigantic country. It's just that it comes at a price. Tibet has benefited from incorporation with China. The fact that they don't want to be is not to be ignored, but overall, having a real government has been a step forward for them.
NOTE: I am not defending the actions of the PLA in this case. I am merely trying to put it in historical context.
Now, what irks me about all this anger over Tibet are the following points:
1) Western liberal respect for the Dalai Lama and Tibet is just dressed up Orientalism. The idea that there was this magical Shangri-Lah run by a benevolent philosopher king is just plain madness, largely spread by guys like Gary Snyder, Philip Whalen, and Jack Kerouac in the 50s. Read Dharma Bums to see if you think these people were anything other than ignorant Americans who were looking for a religion that let them fuck and do drugs sans guilt. How people can simultaneously venerate the DL and his theocratic legacy in Tibet and vilify Ahmadinejad in Iran is beyond me. Iran is a democracy too.
There is no such thing as the noble savage, and there is no such thing as the mysterious East. The West has done terrible things, continues to do terrible things, but we do get some things right and all cultures get a lot of things wrong.
And that leads me to my second point:
2) We are talking about a crackdown that will probably have a body count in the hundreds when all is said and done.
Our nations have murdered approximately 1 MILLION PEOPLE in Iraq since 2003 in what can only be called a vicious oil and power grab, with no benefit to the people whatsoever.
We.
Us.
It doesn't matter if you don't support it--very few people do!--the simple fact of the matter is that we bear the responsibility for the wholesale slaughter of the Iraqi people--a truth made all the more horrific when you remember that we are a democracy. At least the PLC is a one-party state and the people don't have much say in what happens.
Write letters about China? Boycott China? Oh, you arrogant fools. Is the log in your eye so large as to have struck you blind?
WE are the evil empire. WE are the bad guys. China is no paragon of justice or civility, to be sure, but there is one world injustice which towers over all, and that is Iraq. If you want to be angry at someone (and you are a citizen of one of the countries in the "coalition of the willing"), be angry at yourselves.
The Tibetan situation is unfortunate, for sure, but you have no power and no right to tell China what to do. Not true of your own nations.
Every day those responsible for plunging us into Iraq walk free is another day you (we!) have failed.
Divert this energy elsewhere, for the love of all mankind.
Kyle,
The people here who support Tibetan sovereignty are the same ones who are trying to get the US out of Iraq. The ones who are apologizing for China's genocidal program in Tibet are the ones who support our invasion of Iraq.
Tibet has not benefited from being owned and used by China any more than African-Americans benefited from being housed and fed by their masters before abolition. That comment is shameful and profoundly racist.
Crab, Tibetans have killed eighty and the Chinese soldiers stationed on every street have killed none? My, what paragons of self-restraint the PLA have become since the events of Tianenmen Square.
What the Buddhas taught and what's happening in Tibet, by both Chinese and Tibetans, are two completely different things. I have never ready any Sutra or text by Buddha that said "The world is perfect as it is."
He did, however, say that
"In this world, hate never dispelled hate. Only love dispels hate. This is the law,ancient and inexhaustible. You too shall pass away.Knowing this, how can you quarrel?"
As a concept, "the world is perfect" is too simple. Buddhism would say something similar like being born as a human is well-favored. He would say that everything changes.
The Chinese would argue that things should remain permanent within Tibet, that change should not exist. They would say being born a human is better if you're a Han Chinese.
Still, I write this with no anger. Just the observation that suffering exists unless you can change your dualistic (self-cherishing/ other negating) perceptions.
Shantideva said all the suffering there is in this world comes from thinking of oneself. All the happiness in the world comes from thinking of others. China, please reflect on the power and truth of this statement.
I was vilified as a troll when this first hit Boing Boing.
That sounds unfortunate. I'll read your piece with an open mind...
you arrogant fools
Um, OK. Now I see. Thanks for clearing that up.
Kyle: It would seem that the log is in your eye.
It is offensive to suggest that all who support HHDL and "his theocratic legacy" are naive orientalists. Perhaps you have studied East Asia generally but not Tibet specifically. The theocratic legacy of the TIBETAN PEOPLE was established long before the fourteen Dalai Lamas. It is certain that the way in which the people of Tibet lived before the Chinese invasion would not be ideal in the current world. This is why HHDL has stated on any number of occasions that he wishes for a democratic government for the people of Tibet. I hardly think that you can chastise him or those who came before him for not knowing more about the governments of the world as they existed outside the isolated borders of Tibet.
To imply that "we" have acted in some way regarding Iraq (the last time I checked I was outspoken against the Iraq war from the start--unfortunately I was not an elected official at the time the war began and so did not have voting rights in Congress) is not only asinine it is irrelevant to this discussion.
An economic response to the brutality of the Chinese government is perhaps the only way that WE can have a voice in this matter. By boycotting the Olympics and goods manufactured in China WE can send a message that WE will not support such actions with OUR hard-earned money. Like it or not, money talks in our modern world.
This has simultaneously cemented my decision to boycott the Olympics, encourage the friend I have who may be able to attend to avoid, and lose all respect for Communism. It's never worked, so forget about it.
Kyle-
Ditto Antinous. Which is getting really annoying on my part. I'm going to start ignoring you (Ant) and Takuan as well because I'm -always- agreeing with you.
Just because we're more farked up doesn't mean we can't get angry with other people being farked up. -I- didn't vote for Bush. -I- didn't advocate Olympics in Beijing. -I- would like both of those things to be fixed, and though I won't be voting in November because I'll be three months too young, I will be encouraging those I know to vote Obama, and fundraising if I can escape my Right parents. I will boycott the Olympics and try to work up public opinion in my home county. For both causes.
Because both causes need rectifying.
Reading today's comments is fresh air comparing the comments I read yesterday. While there are still people who thinks the rest of the world lives in America, and people who doesn't know any facts then jump to their imagination, there are more open-minded comments this time.
The two articles quoted by #8 summarized the whole situation very very well. From the article Tibet Through Chinese Eyes, Most people in the West thinks that Tibetans are suffering because 1) They discovered human rights, and they think the rest of the world should totally do it; 2) the exile society is always in the media (if Dalai Lama never speaks in public about this, I doubt you can make it an issue). But the problem is that there are some millions of Tibetans working every day for their life, happy with their literacy, stability, electricity, and all sorts of modernized things.
The Chinese in this very decade is not very different from the American a century or two ago when they begin cultivating Indian's land. And of course, the rest of the Chinese developments in recent years, it's happening at much faster pace.
For those who are angry about the current Chinese situation, it is not very different from being angry at your own nations' mistakes - i.e. the concepts of racial equality and human rights are learnt through the painful mistakes of slavery and African/Indian genocides.
And for those who likes to force China to accept your ideology of human rights, you are not very different from the Chinese who likes to force Tibet to accept their ideology of modernization and national unity. The same kind of "saving the world" colonialist heroics.
And this blog entry is not very different from amplifying the angst of the son in the house next doors, complaining about how his mom and dad are not really loving each other, as they don't show the same kind of love displayed in the novels he read.
A few responses:
#4 said that "The internet chatter from the people of 'those ungrateful minorities' is probably going to turn around to 'f*ck the government' now that China has turned off YouTube." but unfortunately most Chinese people who have Internet access would not give a f*ck about Youtube. They have a bunch of Youtube clones already. He thinks the Chinese pollute the environment a lot but he did not know that China supplies most of the solar panels right after Japan, and has heavy investments in environmental technologies.
#7 claims that "China's goal is to take over the earth and eradicate all non-Chinese." I would like to let you know that there is a province (equivalent of state as in the US) that is designated autonomous region for Muslims. I don't recall Amish has its own state. And #18 should know too.
#5 did not read the links and demonized all ethnic Chinese comments as the one quoted in the blog. There are comments who are concerned as well, please go read.
#52 claims that most people in China aren't really having happy fun time. I don't know how he knows, but probably because he thinks that a lot of workers work as cheap labor in very polluted place. I cannot prove the otherwise, but I met some illegal immigrant Chinese workers in a Chinese takeout a couple years ago. Some of them thinks that they are better off in China. In fact, I don't understand why one would like to work 365 days a year in the crowded kitchen - but I accepted the fact that some people accept their own situation.
I don't understand why some would jump to conclusions without getting the facts straight, but I hope these facts can help them understand better. (I had read enough about Tibet in books and Wikipedia these days, my brain exploded.)
The comment by #48 (Noen) is the most impressive and enlightening comment in Boing Boing I've ever read by date. He quoted the Buddhist "The world is perfect as it is" in a few posts above, and later explained that "It means accepting the world for what it is, not as we might wish it to be. Nor does it advocate passivity, far from it. It's saying that if you wish to be effective in the world you need to come from a place of acceptance."
Such philosophies that focus on harmony bring relative social peace to those 1.3 billion people squeezed in that rel