Ouch! Maybe I should have included a </sarcasm> tag. My experience has been that the alt community has a sense of humor. I sure did not mean to make light of Ms Addams. But can’t I be snarky in response to such a snarky video?

@WorLord, condemnation of the “curious” (and learning as well)

I think the main thing here is to not see someone different as an object of curiosity. That is just plain rude. At the same time, we all get curious about the choices people make regarding their sexuality. Be curious about the person, not the sexuality. Invite them over for dinner. Get to know them, spend time talking about the things we all talk about. Work, sports and the rest. Slowly, the conversation may drift over to the choices we all make, in their variety and complexity. If your curiosity is genuine and sincere, a real conversation may follow. And here I am not being sarcastic.

Thanks for being awesome allies. I’m always glad to see non-binary gendered folk protrayed positively in the media, mainstream or otherwise. It’s far too rare and to be honest I usually see it here on BB.

I can’t tell you how tired I am of people who ask me disrespectful questions. I _do_ however go out of my way to answer respectfully framed questions. I’ve become a pretty high-profile trans advocate on my university campus and it’s hard to find people who understand the issues. There are plenty who want to help, so I don’t think it’s constructive for transfolk to shut out everyone with questions, but many of those who want to help don’t have the knowledge and tools to do so.

I think the whole question-asking maelstrom boils down to respect. How in the heck am I supposed to have respect for you if you don’t have respect for me? This goes for cisgendered people as well. It doesn’t matter how you define gender for yourself, what does matter is treating people who are differently gendered with the same respect you would want yourself treated with. Sure, this policy does leave room for some play — I mean, I’m personally pretty liberal with this policy, and I usually think disrespectful comments are funny rather than enraging — but there’s nothing wrong with assuming the person you’re talking to is more sensitive than yourself.

I don’t understand why we’re even having this argument? Calpernia’s commentary is sarcastic, silly, but very honest. If you can’t deal with sarcasm on the internet at this point, you should probably turn off your wireless…

I wish I would be shocked at the bigotry shown to GLB/TG individuals. But given that this is America I wouldn’t be. I would be horrified, and appalled (note the two “P”s indicating the level of appalled). However I wouldn’t be surprised.”

How are you shocked in either situation? This is America, but no matter how progressive cities and pockets of well-informed individuals become, there will always be those who just don’t care to find out for themselves or call their assumptions fact and go about their business.

I don’t want to turn this into a commentary about race issues but it’s the closest parallel I have personal experience with that can be drawn.

So I’ll just say this: If I can still get questioned about my motives, as a reasonably succesful, college educated black man (and we’re hella common) based on stereotypes or others who look like me. I imagine the smaller GLB/TB community has a ways to wait before they get basic widespread acceptance.

It shouldn’t be that way. But I, for one, am not surprised that it isn’t.

Sláinte Erisis!

“If I have time, I may have a few words to say about your later comments.”

I think you could have saved yourself a bushel of time if you would have read the later comments before you posted. While I appreciate your taking the time to say what you did, someone else (towards the end of the thread) already beat you to the punch and explained things in a way even I could understand. To wit:

1) When it comes to Manners, the only rule that counts is mob rule.

I’ve learned other things, too, but they all flow from this one apparently axiomatic and sacrosanct social law. Examples:

- Manners aren’t subject to logic or reason, and don’t have to be, becasue they are not created or designed to appeal or stand up to ether; they exist to preserve a positive emotional state in other people.

- On the flipside, it *is* logical and reasonable for me to employ manners, and do what other people ask no matter what I thnk about it, becasue the alternative is a good old fashioned social hangin’.

- All it takes to be branded an ill-mannered $negative_adjectvie is other people announcing it is so; past or present actions or words, either in cyberspace or in real life, seemingly have little to do with it.

And finally, this last scrap of education that you seem to have taken particular joy in pointing out to me:

- There is something *dreadfully* wrong with me (and anyone else) who may have lived long enough to express age in double-digits without having either an instinctual or aquired understanding of the above.

…which is not something I’m disagreeing with. Really. Honestly. I can only express my sorrow for ruffling feathers with my unpopular (= “wrong” + “offensive”, see rule #1) views, and admit that it is entirely likely that I was not well socialized in my youth… or, at *very* least, not nearly as well-socialized as you seem to have been.

You’re probably thinking that I’m being a smartass or simmering with loathe right now. Reading this over, I don’t blame you; my sentiments don’t seem to be translating as well in writing as I’d hoped. All I can do is *assure* you that I’m being as honest and forthcoming and free-from-snark as I can possibly be under the circumstances. All of this actually *is* something of a revalation to me, and though it does indeed seem that I am ill-mannered (thus “wrong,” see #1), I think I can take what I’ve learned above and at least get to a point where I can maybe work on my artiface and get to a point where – like everyone else here – I can at least simulate being awesome if I can’t actually *be* awesome.

Lesson learned, point taken, horse beaten. I have felt the wrath of posters and now moderators and see the error of my ways.

On the other hand, I do disagree with you on one thing:

“If you’re holding out for that special someone who’ll always love you just the way you are, you can kiss the fantasy goodbye. That person was your mom, and your age was still in single digits. No one else is going to do that for you.”

This is flatly incorrect, and I can prove it: even *I* have friends, and a *wife* of many years. They aren’t many, but they are all quality folk who are similarly good-natured (not that you’d believe it) and (apparently) as ill-mannered as I am, and who demonstrate on a daily basis that they are the sort of folk who DO love me just the way I am – even into my thirties.

So maybe instead of spending time instructing me to abandon that “fantasy,” you should invest in attempting to find it yourself.

That’s what *I’m* screaming.

“We can only respond to what you type.”

Were that this were truly the case. From my perspective, it does not appear to be the case.

Don’t tell me what being a man/woman or straight/gay should mean to me.

Just a few notes from the conversation here…

1. Gender Identity != Sexual Orientation. I’m really hoping that Dr. Benway is joking… Look, being trans does not make you gay. Trust me. I tried. I really wanted to be gay. It’s just that… well… I’m just not gay. And about sexual orientation, I know several transmen and transwomen. Some are attracted to members of their own gender, some are not. And there are enough in either camp to support the assertion that orientation seems to be independent of identity.

2. We walk amongst you undetected. When you see George Galloway in a leotard next to Pete Burns you say, “eek! he makes an ugly broad!” (Galloway, that is) And then you congratulate yourself on being able to spot the non-genetically-female. In the real world, it’s not as simple. Some transfolk are not especially interested in “passing,” some find it hard to pass without surgery and others pass _very_ well. Here’s the interesting thing… people who pass very well… they tend not to point out that they’re transsexuals. In part because people start doing crazy stuff like asking them annoying questions or wanting to beat them up. But the point here is that when you see a transsexual who doesn’t pass, you start to think that you can spot them all. When you see a transsexual that does pass, you don’t think to yourself, “oh… that person over there may be a transsexual, I’ll have to reassess my ability to detect such persons.” In short, there are a lot of transfolk who pass, and pass quite well.

3. I used to go to gay bars to get a drink someplace where I wouldn’t get beat up. An interesting thing about gay bars, there are often non-gay people there. And that’s okay. Well.. it would be okay with me if I owned a gay bar. ’cause the way I looked at it, a gay bar isn’t a place exclusively for gay people, it’s a place where you don’t have to be rigidly hetero-normative to get a drink and not get beaten up. So just ’cause a transperson goes to a gay bar does not mean that they’re gay. But some are. My point is, going to a gay bar does not imply that one is “gay”.

I really wish I had some good answers to give you. Unfortunately I don’t. (But if I come up with something I’ll let you know.)

Nonetheles — I have some comments about your question — especially to highlight how they are *different* from the ones that Ms. Addams addresses in her video (and why you should *not* feel bad about asking your question).

For one thing — you are not asking your question to someone that you randomly meet on the street. You are bringing up on a forum where the subject of transsexuality is already up.

Second – you’re not asking anyone anything personal about her intimate life – nor are you asking her to bring up the more vulnerable parts of her life.

Last but not least — your question isn’t one of idle curiosity. Rather, it is a question who’s answer you have a sincere need-to-know. Basically, your question is analogous to going onto an ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder) forum and saying: “I suspect my child may have ADD. How should I approach this?”

I really wish I had an answer to your question — because not only it isn’t a bad question. It is actually a *good* question. If I ever have an answer, I’ll let you know.

I agree, in theory. In practice is where I think this falls completely apart. I don’t think I’m amiss in saying that you, too, have an unreasonable sense of entitlement.

Transgendered people have indeed made a life choice, and usually for _personal reasons_. That, we agree on. But I balk at alling it a very _personal life choice_. It isn’t personal; in fact, what is arguably the largest part of it is very _public_: one now goes out into the world, to interact with the public, as a member of the opposite gender. Like the analogy involving the prominent and enigmatic tattoo on the forehead (which may _also_ have been done for personal reasons), the choice itself ceases being “very personal” when it is visible, through or on top of clothing, from across the street.

Look, I’m down with anyone changing his/her gender (or getting a piercing, or new breasts, or [insert_mod_here]) in order to further his/her sense of self, or belonging, or identity or happiness, or even (and especially) for the heck of it. I won’t treat anyone differently for that, and I certainly won’t treat anyone who does any of those things negatively. I am vocal in my condemnation of anyone who would treat someone as less because they saw fit to modify themselves.

But I do think it needs to be said that a person who does something like this doesn’t automagically have the right to expect the rest of the human race to suppress what is a near-instinctual reaction. You don’t get to re-write the basic rules of human nature. It is madness to expect people to be blase about something that is, for most of them, a very visible and radical alteration. It is _going_ to raise eyebrows and inquiries. It is _going_ to grab comments from, as a poster said, “drunken frat boys”.

And just because its not a reaction you, personally, welcome, doesn’t give you the right to deem an expected and natural reaction as “rude” or “lacking in tact”. (Excempting, of course, edge cases like frat boys.)

Not everyone is a TG; not everyone knows one, and not many people are going to spontaneously “look it up;” and honestly, I’m not sure putting the onus on everyone else is the correct path towards harmony and acceptance.

(The poster Antinous especially embodies this sense of entitlement. My only response is with reactions like that, its small wonder that people shy away or become “rude”. Your post was also beside the point, because google and wikipedia are great with handling “what” and “how,” but not so much with handling “why”.)

We can only know the things, about you, which you type, so either let it be known your statements are not necessarily what you believe, or be responded to accordingly.

I could say some vastly inappropriate shit in mock-defense of some wacky theory or other, and hope everybody here knows I’m really a sane guy, who wouldn’t worry a fly. But if I don’t qualify the remark I will be responded to as if I meant what I said.

Either qualify your statements, or understand that people will only respond to your typed words, not the possibility of you being the opposite of what you project.

But to be clear, I’m not involved in the discussion you have been having with the other folks onboard, I joined at comment #146 and am only commenting on the notions of clarity.

The good: This thread has brought out a whole bunch of GLBT folks who are usually pretty quiet on BB. Although the BBers are very queer friendly, the threads aren’t necessarily so. They’re not usually hostile, but sometimes it seems like we don’t exist. It’s good to have some company.

MikeSum32 – I know that you did your detective work. You followed the link to my blog and figured out my business website from there, so now you know that my real name is John. The fact that you’re using it here makes it seem as if you are trying to threaten me. I only use the moniker because my name is too common to be a useful identifier. If you don’t want to be tagged as a stalker, back off.

Oh, woe, woe is you! Here, let me staple your hand to your forehead for all your suffering

BTW, I’m not transgendered.

I agree with you in one thing: having privilege (or more privilege than some) doesn’t grant one the right to be a jackass; but you know what, neither does having a hard life that leads to making unconventional decisions. Perhaps if everyone stopped treating behavior they don’t immediately understand as some kind of offensive salvo, life would be better for everyone.

Do you also ask black people why they’re so angry? Because this is the same sort of ‘tude I see from people asking that question.

OK. You’ve had enough of a free education. If you’re going to walk through life with a privileged chip on your privileged shoulder, go ahead. Be a modern day Archie Bunker.

I’ve often had a problem with cultural biases that have no basis in logic. Or, for that matter, biases that were once important but are now outdated but still kept around.

But please do understand, not all trans people are angry, and certainly not all the time. Some of them are exhausted of being asked questions all the time (just because ~you~ aren’t asking them all the time doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen), frustrated by how insensitive some people can be, and might have a mini-rant to get out some of that energy. Or might have a crappy day and a question that usually elicits a ~sigh~ instead elicits an angry rant about insensitivity.

Every trans person I’ve known has had frustrating days and encounters. But they’ve generally only gotten ~angry~ at the kinds of things that make most of us angry: being denied rights, discrimination, an unexplained dent in the car in the parking lot…

Unfortunately, what gets publicized is anger and expressions of anger. You don’t read a lot of articles that say “a transman today had a great day today” because that’s not NEWS.

Understood. Please also understand that this is a public place.

Look at my track record for publicly stamping on the face of organized religions. Do you imagine for a moment me cornering a pious Italian great-grandmother and lecturing her on the crimes of the priesthood? I may be a monster, but I strive to be a monster with some manners.

Words have power. Words kill. Words give life.

I probably shouldn’t be shocked at either, you’re right about that. Guess I just run in a crowd progressive enough that it makes me sub-consciously forget how bad most of the nation is.

When I do that I should probably spend more time thinking about my brother. Though becoming born-again didn’t make him a racist it sure did make him a homo-phobe. And Gods know there’s plenty of racists out there as well, maybe even more, though I don’t know any statistics.

Shocked or not, I AM disappointed.

Wouldn’t trade my country for the world, literally since I’m an isolationist, but I do find myself ashamed of it on many occasions. Mostly because I feel we should be so much more than we are.

Oh well.

-abs

It’s hard to tell who’s asking what for what reason. Sorry if I came off as too harsh.

@ #93, Xopher,

Oh, I have problems with “go with self identification” in some cases, but as a rule of thumb, it’ll almost always be polite. Later, in private conversation, I may well call them crazy, or deluded.

As long as someone has not proven that they deserve a verbal smacking around, I try to be polite as a default.

I had a similar question about Xeni: for a time I wondered if she might be an elf… possibly from outer space. I mean, I’m gay and all, but Xeni has to be one of the most compelling people (mentally and physically) that I have ever come across. That says space-elf to me.

I have albinism, which is another highly visible but uncommon human trait, and get asked about it maybe two or three times a year. I dno’t mind answering questions most of the time; the most uncomfortable part of it is that I often have to explain the handicap that comes with it, which is less visible. Some people, on the other hand, are so hugely bothered by it that they’ve printed up “encounter cards” that they hand to people as a way of saying “read the FAQ”.

These cards never contain the word “dumbass”.

I know one TG through a friend on a social networking website (never met). He’s FTM and gets laid more often than me. And I knew him before he came out as TG, and was just passing as lesbian. When he did come out, he got a new profile for that identity. He pointed out that, after the math worked out, he was just a straight guy, so I took his word for it. And if I ever talk to him about TG issues, which is super-rare, I make it very clear that I’m talking about my own perspective as a non-TG straight guy trying to make sense of the world. I think the one question I asked him is whether he was generitcally XX or XY. The answer: XX. And it’s these kinds of questions, and answers, that make it possible for someone like me to challenge my motion of what defines a gender.

But here’s why I’m really contributing to this thread: I can name three men who wrote video games in the 1980′s and then became women, in that order. I’m sure it’s just a coincidence, but it does seem kind of too much to be a coincidence. It’s not like I can name three albinos classic video game programmers, or three transgender physicists.

I watched Jamie Fenton, the creator of Gorf, speak at Classic Gaming Expo ’98. She and her voice were both six feet tall, so I had to make the conscious choice not to jump to conclusions. But then she showed some old film footage of her old self demonstrating Gorf 2, and the cat was out of the bag. She jokingly referred to him as “her brother”, and I think the audience laughed and was then free to concentrate on the gameplay footage. In the time since, I learned that the landmark Atari 800 game MULE was written by Dan Bunten, who then became Dani Bunten, and Will Wright dedicated The Sims to her memory. And when I looked up Shamus, one of my mother’s favorite games, I found out that the author, William Mataga, became Cathryn Mataga, and she and Fenton have both continued to work in the video game and related industries.

You seem to think that “personal” and “private” and “completely concealed from public view” are all synonyms, when they’re clearly not. Just because something is visible doesn’t mean that it’s completely available for public discussion. You bring up analogies like piercings and tattoos, but those are also inappropriate because they’re purely ornamental … this would be a lot more analagous to starting a conversation with a woman you don’t know very well about the size of her breasts and how much pubic hair she has. And if you can think of any other context in which it’s appropriate to ask a casual acquaintance about major surgery you assume they’ve had on their genitals, I’d really like to know what it is.

It’s equally ridiculous to claim that behavior can’t be rude if it’s not intentionally so … rudeness is determined by the reaction and the context, not simply the intent of the original actor. Between close friends, casual obscenity, off-color jokes, and even physical violence might be completely accepted and seen as playful and affectionate, but the same people wouldn’t behave that way towards their grandparents, or people they’ve just met. As another example, there are lots of gestures that are innocuous in one culture but extremely offensive in another. When you accidentally gesture “fuck you” instead of “okay,” people’s first reaction will be to get offended no matter what you meant.

Ideally, they’ll educate you gently about your mistake rather than react with hostility … kind of like what this video is attempting to do.

We’re always angry because we deal with the same kinds of questions on a daily basis. My usual response is patience, even if I want to smack someone for touching my hair because “They just wanted to see if it really felt like wool.” or “I’ve never touched a black person’s hair before.”

I know that my experience is different than that of TG individuals, but I can say that because of some similarities, I can at least imagine where they are coming from.

Alot of people assume that curiosity gives them the right to be presumptuous. It doesn’t. If people wish to go around assuming that it does, don’t be surprised when you catch a person on a bad day and receive a dressing down, or worse a severe beating for being disrespectful.

Big ups to Calpernia. You’re doing great things girl.

Worlord,

How big is your dick? Are you cut or uncut? How big are your nuts? Can you post a link to pictures of your genitalia? My natural curiosity is piqued. Since you’ve made it perfectly clear that rude curiosity must be indulged, we’re all waiting for the details.

Given last night’s comments, we should all be asking YOU those questions. Would you like to address your queue?

The theme of so many of these posts is, “If I have decided that you are a freak, it’s my god given right to disregard all social conventions and cause you misery in order to satisfy my idle fanboy curiosity.” I also bet that the guys who ask to see the new girl-parts aren’t nearly so eager to ask gay men for details on how sodomy works. Selective ‘natural’ curiosity.