Comments on: Old time record enthusiast rips and posts thousands of 78RPM tracks http://boingboing.net/2008/08/12/old-time-record-enth.html Brain candy for Happy Mutants Thu, 23 May 2013 09:32:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: Brett Burton http://boingboing.net/2008/08/12/old-time-record-enth.html#comment-259072 Brett Burton Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-259072 This really should be done on a high quality turntable with a new cartridge. Maybe that spoils the fun or seems less than authentic, but if you're going to record this many records for posterity, you should probably get the best quality you can. Might also want to look into the sampling rate and bit rate and pay attention to what preamp you are using. Playing these 78s on an old player with an ancient cartridge is going to slowly damage the records. This really should be done on a high quality turntable with a new cartridge. Maybe that spoils the fun or seems less than authentic, but if you’re going to record this many records for posterity, you should probably get the best quality you can. Might also want to look into the sampling rate and bit rate and pay attention to what preamp you are using. Playing these 78s on an old player with an ancient cartridge is going to slowly damage the records.

]]> By: Evil Jim http://boingboing.net/2008/08/12/old-time-record-enth.html#comment-258822 Evil Jim Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-258822 Hmm. Only 216 out out of 3,733 downloads worked. Curses! Hmm. Only 216 out out of 3,733 downloads worked.

Curses!

]]> By: Arborlaw http://boingboing.net/2008/08/12/old-time-record-enth.html#comment-259335 Arborlaw Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-259335 Comments about fidelity aside -- this is a labor of love, and people should remember that. <br /><br />It comes wholly out of one person's impulse to preserve the past and continue to make it available. The fact that these recordings aren't available other than by this kind of effort highlights a market failure -- there is an enthusiastic long tail market for these kinds of recordings, but the larger companies who own the rights in these recordings don't want to mine the long tail, their model tells them to go after the low hanging fruit. The smaller companies have gone out of business and those works are essentially orphaned.<br /><br />I scanned the list of artists before Cliff Bolling's site went down and many of these recordings are still within copyright if they were renewed by the owners. But ownership of copyright contains no obligation to preserve the owned materials. <br /><br />The copyright issues with these recordings (problematic to get permission, risk of criminal or civil penalties for infringement by 'making available') are no different from the copyright issues posed by Google's initiative to digitize the contents of large libraries without seeking prior approval of the copyright owners of individual works. Google is essentially doing the same thing without getting prior permission from owners, by running a 'contact us and you can opt out' system. Copyright does not currently provide for this. It will be interesting to see whether the risk Google has taken with respect to copyright infringement is reflected in new copyright laws (such as the proposed Orphan Works copyright legislation). Carol Shepherd, Attorney Arborlaw PLC http://arborlaw.biz/ Comments about fidelity aside — this is a labor of love, and people should remember that.

It comes wholly out of one person’s impulse to preserve the past and continue to make it available. The fact that these recordings aren’t available other than by this kind of effort highlights a market failure — there is an enthusiastic long tail market for these kinds of recordings, but the larger companies who own the rights in these recordings don’t want to mine the long tail, their model tells them to go after the low hanging fruit. The smaller companies have gone out of business and those works are essentially orphaned.

I scanned the list of artists before Cliff Bolling’s site went down and many of these recordings are still within copyright if they were renewed by the owners. But ownership of copyright contains no obligation to preserve the owned materials.

The copyright issues with these recordings (problematic to get permission, risk of criminal or civil penalties for infringement by ‘making available’) are no different from the copyright issues posed by Google’s initiative to digitize the contents of large libraries without seeking prior approval of the copyright owners of individual works. Google is essentially doing the same thing without getting prior permission from owners, by running a ‘contact us and you can opt out’ system. Copyright does not currently provide for this. It will be interesting to see whether the risk Google has taken with respect to copyright infringement is reflected in new copyright laws (such as the proposed Orphan Works copyright legislation).

Carol Shepherd, Attorney
Arborlaw PLC
http://arborlaw.biz/

]]> By: giusbox http://boingboing.net/2008/08/12/old-time-record-enth.html#comment-258832 giusbox Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-258832 Awesome. Awesome.

]]> By: Ugly Canuck http://boingboing.net/2008/08/12/old-time-record-enth.html#comment-259881 Ugly Canuck Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-259881 They should work if the turntable can do 78 - my old turntables only do 45 and 33, and they are thirty years old themselves. They should work if the turntable can do 78 – my old turntables only do 45 and 33, and they are thirty years old themselves.

]]> By: error404 http://boingboing.net/2008/08/12/old-time-record-enth.html#comment-258858 error404 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-258858 I think it probably has to do with his site being publuished on Boing Boing and Wired. No doubt the deluge of the curious has swamped the servers. I think it probably has to do with his site being publuished on Boing Boing and Wired.

No doubt the deluge of the curious has swamped the servers.

]]> By: kip w http://boingboing.net/2008/08/12/old-time-record-enth.html#comment-259894 kip w Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-259894 If you have SoundForge or something similar, it's possible to record a 78 at the 45 speed and then adjust the recording. The problem is that the needle isn't made for the same kind of movement, so you won't get the most out of it. It's better than nothing, of course. It might also hurt the needle, as the ups and downs of 78s are (I believe) more pronounced than later formats. I only used it for a sort of emergency recording of an ancient and fragile one-of-a-kind home recording of my dad. It reminds me a little of when I found my late grandfather's wire recorder and a spool of wire that may have had his voice on it. Grandma feared that something bad might happen if I tried to play it, so I let it be, and some time later, the recorder and everything else were probably given away at a yard sale. Nothing was ventured, and nothing was gained. If you have SoundForge or something similar, it’s possible to record a 78 at the 45 speed and then adjust the recording. The problem is that the needle isn’t made for the same kind of movement, so you won’t get the most out of it. It’s better than nothing, of course. It might also hurt the needle, as the ups and downs of 78s are (I believe) more pronounced than later formats. I only used it for a sort of emergency recording of an ancient and fragile one-of-a-kind home recording of my dad.

It reminds me a little of when I found my late grandfather’s wire recorder and a spool of wire that may have had his voice on it. Grandma feared that something bad might happen if I tried to play it, so I let it be, and some time later, the recorder and everything else were probably given away at a yard sale. Nothing was ventured, and nothing was gained.

]]> By: hassan-i-sabbah http://boingboing.net/2008/08/12/old-time-record-enth.html#comment-258873 hassan-i-sabbah Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-258873 A fine chap named the Turtle provides a similar service http://turtleservices.com/jukebox.htm as the man says-"Make Your Selection. No Nickel Required! (Put a new needle in, and crank up your MP3 "talking machine") A fine chap named the Turtle provides a similar service
http://turtleservices.com/jukebox.htm
as the man says-”Make Your Selection. No Nickel Required!
(Put a new needle in, and crank up your MP3 “talking machine”)

]]> By: Ugly Canuck http://boingboing.net/2008/08/12/old-time-record-enth.html#comment-258874 Ugly Canuck Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-258874 This is a fantastically cool thing this fellow has done. This is a fantastically cool thing this fellow has done.

]]> By: ian_mxyz http://boingboing.net/2008/08/12/old-time-record-enth.html#comment-259151 ian_mxyz Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-259151 Er, it would be a Garrard turntable (not Gerard), and typically 78s would be shellac, which is why they shatter when you drop them. Er, it would be a Garrard turntable (not Gerard), and typically 78s would be shellac, which is why they shatter when you drop them.

]]> By: Jeff http://boingboing.net/2008/08/12/old-time-record-enth.html#comment-258896 Jeff Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-258896 All those pops and hisses may add a feeling of "old" but it's just noise and is not information that can be used. The music is the important part, not the damage to the original record. I'm all for the transcription process, but if you're going to take all that time to do so, you might as well clean the sound up. And if you really want to, you can add your pops and clicks. All those pops and hisses may add a feeling of “old” but it’s just noise and is not information that can be used. The music is the important part, not the damage to the original record. I’m all for the transcription process, but if you’re going to take all that time to do so, you might as well clean the sound up. And if you really want to, you can add your pops and clicks.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2008/08/12/old-time-record-enth.html#comment-258907 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-258907 (Comment from Andrew Hickey - http://andrewhickey.info ) Actually, they're not vinyl tracks. 78s were produced on shellac - only when 45 and 33 1/3 RPM microgroove records came in in the 50s were they made on vinyl. For those who want stuff that's even older, archive.org has a wonderful collection of MP3s of not only 78s, but Edison wax cylinders, dating back to the 1890s... (Comment from Andrew Hickey – http://andrewhickey.info )

Actually, they’re not vinyl tracks. 78s were produced on shellac – only when 45 and 33 1/3 RPM microgroove records came in in the 50s were they made on vinyl.

For those who want stuff that’s even older, archive.org has a wonderful collection of MP3s of not only 78s, but Edison wax cylinders, dating back to the 1890s…

]]> By: ROSSINDETROIT http://boingboing.net/2008/08/12/old-time-record-enth.html#comment-258910 ROSSINDETROIT Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-258910 Hey. I have one of those GE Variable Reluctance cartridges here on my desk. I was looking into the market for 78 RPM records recently when a good sized stash of them was discovered in the estate of a relative. According to dealers and collectors that I talked to 99.5% of 78's in existence are virtually worthless because they hold ephemeral pop music that nobody wants to hear any more. A dealer told me he would pay $30 for 300 78's and expect to throw away 298 of them and sell the remaining 2 for $25 each. What is of interest to collectors on old 78's includes Rockabilly and early Rock and Roll. As with other collector infested realms of popular culture, until you know absolutely everything about it you know nothing at all, and that's where I am. Hey. I have one of those GE Variable Reluctance cartridges here on my desk.
I was looking into the market for 78 RPM records recently when a good sized stash of them was discovered in the estate of a relative. According to dealers and collectors that I talked to 99.5% of 78′s in existence are virtually worthless because they hold ephemeral pop music that nobody wants to hear any more. A dealer told me he would pay $30 for 300 78′s and expect to throw away 298 of them and sell the remaining 2 for $25 each. What is of interest to collectors on old 78′s includes Rockabilly and early Rock and Roll.
As with other collector infested realms of popular culture, until you know absolutely everything about it you know nothing at all, and that’s where I am.

]]> By: Cloudform http://boingboing.net/2008/08/12/old-time-record-enth.html#comment-258912 Cloudform Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-258912 I'd much rather have the original recordings, pre-processing. Compare noise reduction 30, 20, 10 years ago to what's available today. When the originals are archived for posterity, better noise reduction that comes out over the decades can be used on the original source material, not irrevocably harmed version created with tech current to the date of the archiving process. I’d much rather have the original recordings, pre-processing.

Compare noise reduction 30, 20, 10 years ago to what’s available today.

When the originals are archived for posterity, better noise reduction that comes out over the decades can be used on the original source material, not irrevocably harmed version created with tech current to the date of the archiving process.

]]> By: Tony Moore http://boingboing.net/2008/08/12/old-time-record-enth.html#comment-258919 Tony Moore Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-258919 This is really great. So far i've only snagged a handful of Spike Jones songs, but i'm certain i'll be back for a lot more as time permits. the pops and hiss can sometimes be a frustration, especially when its as loud as the music itself, but it does add a certain great feeling to hearing it for the first time, like digging up treasures at my grandmother's house and giving them a spin on her Victrola. In the "listening experience," i think it adds more to the "experience" than the "listening" itself, but i think there's something to be said for that. -T This is really great. So far i’ve only snagged a handful of Spike Jones songs, but i’m certain i’ll be back for a lot more as time permits.

the pops and hiss can sometimes be a frustration, especially when its as loud as the music itself, but it does add a certain great feeling to hearing it for the first time, like digging up treasures at my grandmother’s house and giving them a spin on her Victrola. In the “listening experience,” i think it adds more to the “experience” than the “listening” itself, but i think there’s something to be said for that.

-T

]]> By: ROSSINDETROIT http://boingboing.net/2008/08/12/old-time-record-enth.html#comment-258925 ROSSINDETROIT Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-258925 I agree that these should be archived without processing to avoid loss of data. If you don't want the clicks and pops, process them before playing. I agree that these should be archived without processing to avoid loss of data. If you don’t want the clicks and pops, process them before playing.

]]> By: Susan Oliver http://boingboing.net/2008/08/12/old-time-record-enth.html#comment-260474 Susan Oliver Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-260474 @31 St Vincent <i>To be sure, too much noise can be a problem, but to someone with shellac in their veins, the pops and ticks are all part of the charm. Taking them all out would be like color-correcting the Mona Lisa, IMHO.</i> If the Mona Lisa were crusted over with centuries of grime I'd be all in favour of cleaning to restore her original beauty. Same argument was originally made against cleaning the stained glass windows at Chartres, but once they were restored the brilliance was amazing. This was what the artist/artisans had intended! So I wonder if we're sentimentalizing the pops and static, and forgetting what the artist really wanted. @31 St Vincent
To be sure, too much noise can be a problem, but to someone with shellac in their veins, the pops and ticks are all part of the charm. Taking them all out would be like color-correcting the Mona Lisa, IMHO.

If the Mona Lisa were crusted over with centuries of grime I’d be all in favour of cleaning to restore her original beauty. Same argument was originally made against cleaning the stained glass windows at Chartres, but once they were restored the brilliance was amazing. This was what the artist/artisans had intended!

So I wonder if we’re sentimentalizing the pops and static, and forgetting what the artist really wanted.

]]> By: dronestate http://boingboing.net/2008/08/12/old-time-record-enth.html#comment-258945 dronestate Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-258945 Not to steal this dude's thunder, as what he has done is waaaaaaaay cooler than what I do, but I do a similar sort of thing with vinyl from the thrift store on my blog foundvinyl.net. Not to steal this dude’s thunder, as what he has done is waaaaaaaay cooler than what I do, but I do a similar sort of thing with vinyl from the thrift store on my blog foundvinyl.net.

]]> By: kip w http://boingboing.net/2008/08/12/old-time-record-enth.html#comment-259718 kip w Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-259718 I've suggested archive.org for bb consideration in the past. They have a wondrous hoard of 78s, including a lot of "party records" by Benny Bell, Ben Light, Cliff Edwards, and others, as well as great stuff from Billy Jones & Ernie Hare, Billy Murray, Ada Jones, and so many more. Tinfoil.com also provides wonderful 78 rips. Redhotjazz delivers RealAudio you can listen to at the site of (I think) hundreds of bands prior to about 1928. Tangentially related, a Canadian man named Terry Smythe scans piano rolls to MIDI format, and has thousands (around 5,000 by now), and keeps adding more. I have my own bunch of 78s. I'm either going to buy a new turntable for them or keep using the one I got 25 years ago for $15, which I have been mildly dissatisfied with recently. I'm starting to think maybe it's not all that bad after all; I just have to thump the wire to get the connection started, and after that it's fine. Maybe a little reedy. I’ve suggested archive.org for bb consideration in the past. They have a wondrous hoard of 78s, including a lot of “party records” by Benny Bell, Ben Light, Cliff Edwards, and others, as well as great stuff from Billy Jones & Ernie Hare, Billy Murray, Ada Jones, and so many more.

Tinfoil.com also provides wonderful 78 rips. Redhotjazz delivers RealAudio you can listen to at the site of (I think) hundreds of bands prior to about 1928.

Tangentially related, a Canadian man named Terry Smythe scans piano rolls to MIDI format, and has thousands (around 5,000 by now), and keeps adding more.

I have my own bunch of 78s. I’m either going to buy a new turntable for them or keep using the one I got 25 years ago for $15, which I have been mildly dissatisfied with recently. I’m starting to think maybe it’s not all that bad after all; I just have to thump the wire to get the connection started, and after that it’s fine. Maybe a little reedy.

]]> By: JG http://boingboing.net/2008/08/12/old-time-record-enth.html#comment-258959 JG Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-258959 Another similar biz working with old time recordings, everything from wax cylinders to 78's, is Dust To Digital. http://www.dust-digital.com/ From their site: "Dust-to-Digital's mission is to produce high quality cultural artifacts, which combine rare, essential recordings with historic images and detailed texts describing the artists and their works." I highly recommend the lovely boxed set 'Goodbye Babylon', beautifully remastered with just a squeeze of hiss and a pinch of pop. Another similar biz working with old time recordings, everything from wax cylinders to 78′s, is Dust To Digital.
http://www.dust-digital.com/
From their site:
“Dust-to-Digital’s mission is to produce high quality cultural artifacts, which combine rare, essential recordings with historic images and detailed texts describing the artists and their works.”

I highly recommend the lovely boxed set ‘Goodbye Babylon’, beautifully remastered with just a squeeze of hiss and a pinch of pop.

]]> By: Quibbler http://boingboing.net/2008/08/12/old-time-record-enth.html#comment-258978 Quibbler Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-258978 Always thought 78's were made from shellac and not vinyl. Always thought 78′s were made from shellac and not vinyl.

]]> By: Evil Jim http://boingboing.net/2008/08/12/old-time-record-enth.html#comment-259747 Evil Jim Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-259747 Thank you so much to other commentors & contributors for posting links to other, similar archives. This will keep me busy for years. :D Thank you so much to other commentors & contributors for posting links to other, similar archives. This will keep me busy for years. :D

]]> By: JG http://boingboing.net/2008/08/12/old-time-record-enth.html#comment-258991 JG Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-258991 I believe that many 78's were manufactured from cellulose acetate or shellac with some sort of underlying support medium. I believe that many 78′s were manufactured from cellulose acetate or shellac with some sort of underlying support medium.

]]> By: Bender http://boingboing.net/2008/08/12/old-time-record-enth.html#comment-258992 Bender Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-258992 People who make this music available for the rest of us are awesome. Awesome I tell you! People who make this music available for the rest of us are awesome. Awesome I tell you!

]]> By: Takuan http://boingboing.net/2008/08/12/old-time-record-enth.html#comment-259765 Takuan Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-259765 do those laser stylus turntables work and make sense for 78s? do those laser stylus turntables work and make sense for 78s?

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2008/08/12/old-time-record-enth.html#comment-259003 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-259003 @ROSSINDETROIT If you're ever in Minneapolis: http://www.citypages.com/bestof/2008/award/best-music-store-443596/ @ROSSINDETROIT

If you’re ever in Minneapolis:

http://www.citypages.com/bestof/2008/award/best-music-store-443596/

]]> By: Carrie http://boingboing.net/2008/08/12/old-time-record-enth.html#comment-259007 Carrie Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-259007 Makes me feel like an amateur for only doing about 200 or so LPs that I own. -Carrie Makes me feel like an amateur for only doing about 200 or so LPs that I own.
-Carrie

]]> By: st vincent http://boingboing.net/2008/08/12/old-time-record-enth.html#comment-259267 st vincent Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-259267 I'm a 78 hound myself... I've got a couple thousand and still more follow me home every week. I've transcribed hundreds to digital, but this fellow makes my efforts pale in comparison. I absolutely LOVE what I've downloaded so far... I found out about the site over a month ago and now have hours and hours of new music to add to my burgeoning collection of 78 recordings. He's doing it just as I would: warts and all. To be sure, too much noise can be a problem, but to someone with shellac in their veins, the pops and ticks are all part of the charm. Taking them all out would be like color-correcting the Mona Lisa, IMHO. Unless you spend big $$$, most noise reduction software takes too much life out of the recordings for my taste. Do you whiners about surface noise, MP3s and such have ANY idea how much effort is required to transcribe 78s and then share them online? Bandwidth costs $$$! Not to mention that there's a not insignificant amount of time involved to transcribe, edit and title each track. Christ, this guy's making cool old music alive again and available to everyone for FREE... just what the hell do you want? Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth! My biggest fear: that the site will be killed from too much love, that busybody a**holes will ruin it through legal meddling, that the site's creator will give up because it's all too much a pain in the ass for him. Something tells me it would take a lot for that to happen, he's clearly very committed to this project. In closing, I'll say that musically, those old records often blow modern stuff away in terms of composition, melody, arrangement and downright soul and grit. Not to mention that the supression of a sophisticated adult culture in music over the last 40 years is made all too glaringly apparent. I urge anyone who loves music to turn an ear toward older recordings. It might take a while to really get it, but it's worth the effort. I’m a 78 hound myself… I’ve got a couple thousand and still more follow me home every week. I’ve transcribed hundreds to digital, but this fellow makes my efforts pale in comparison.

I absolutely LOVE what I’ve downloaded so far… I found out about the site over a month ago and now have hours and hours of new music to add to my burgeoning collection of 78 recordings.

He’s doing it just as I would: warts and all. To be sure, too much noise can be a problem, but to someone with shellac in their veins, the pops and ticks are all part of the charm. Taking them all out would be like color-correcting the Mona Lisa, IMHO.

Unless you spend big $$$, most noise reduction software takes too much life out of the recordings for my taste.

Do you whiners about surface noise, MP3s and such have ANY idea how much effort is required to transcribe 78s and then share them online? Bandwidth costs $$$! Not to mention that there’s a not insignificant amount of time involved to transcribe, edit and title each track. Christ, this guy’s making cool old music alive again and available to everyone for FREE… just what the hell do you want? Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth!

My biggest fear: that the site will be killed from too much love, that busybody a**holes will ruin it through legal meddling, that the site’s creator will give up because it’s all too much a pain in the ass for him. Something tells me it would take a lot for that to happen, he’s clearly very committed to this project.

In closing, I’ll say that musically, those old records often blow modern stuff away in terms of composition, melody, arrangement and downright soul and grit. Not to mention that the supression of a sophisticated adult culture in music over the last 40 years is made all too glaringly apparent.

I urge anyone who loves music to turn an ear toward older recordings. It might take a while to really get it, but it’s worth the effort.

]]> By: Baldhead http://boingboing.net/2008/08/12/old-time-record-enth.html#comment-259015 Baldhead Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-259015 I'd much rather have them put up uncorrected so I can do it myself. most programs I've heard both can't get rid of the worst pops and frequently kill large amounts of the sound to get rid of the noise- the result usually sounds like a cassette on a cheap stereo. to do it right is the same as restoring an old, creased photo. get a top program (I use logic for audio and photoshop for photos) and clean it up by hand. takes lnoger by far but it tends to work a lot better. I’d much rather have them put up uncorrected so I can do it myself. most programs I’ve heard both can’t get rid of the worst pops and frequently kill large amounts of the sound to get rid of the noise- the result usually sounds like a cassette on a cheap stereo.

to do it right is the same as restoring an old, creased photo. get a top program (I use logic for audio and photoshop for photos) and clean it up by hand. takes lnoger by far but it tends to work a lot better.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2008/08/12/old-time-record-enth.html#comment-259016 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-259016 Wow - Cliff Bolling had some great jazz recordings of his own out in the 60's and 70's Jack Wow – Cliff Bolling had some great jazz recordings of his own out in the 60′s and 70′s
Jack

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