In the Netherlands the cops have to be pulling you over for some violation or another, even if it’s just not having a bike light after sundown. In some neighborhoods, they’re also allowed random preventative frisking, but I don’t know whether they can demand ID too.

But requiring any portion of the population show ID logically demands requiring that all show ID. A cop accosts someone on the street and demands ID. The person doesn’t have one. Absent obvious cues, is the person a native citizen or a foreigner who’s just not carrying ID?

Basically, it makes everyone illegal unless they can prove themselves legal.

The Tories may denounce the ID plan now, but however far it advances, they won’t roll it back. At best they’ll leave it on hold, but it’s more likely they’ll allow it to chug along slowly while purging it of Labour elements. Then they’ll use the next emergency (or fan a moral panic if there isn’t one) as an excuse to really pick up where Labour left off.

I’ll probably end up carrying my tax return around instead of an ID card.

Can I apologise on behalf of the UK?

We are currently governed by a generation of morally bankrupt, unprincipled shits.

I don’t blame you for wanting to leave; I’d consider it myself – but currently the priority is to make damn sure that whoever replaces New Labour after the next election bloodbath restores as much sanity as we can manage.

The thing that amazes me is that they just don’t seem to get what they have done.

Matt Wardman

However, Commonwealth citizens _do_ have the vote in the UK. Also, migrants tend to cluster in the southern UK, and Labour is comparatively weak in this region. A targetted political campaign by the Liberal Democrats directed to resident non-citizen Commonwealth immigrants could have interesting.cn effects for Labour.

I doubt it’ll change many minds in government, but it’ll make for some good photos…

Blair was proved to be right.
You were merely proved correct.

See what I did there? :)

Nw h ndrstnds hw th Lbrl Fscsm thngy wrks…..hh

I don’t even bother voting, because it doesn’t matter.

Actually, you’ve gotten exactly what you deserve.

Please, explain. Who can I possibly vote for that would give a result that was in any way different? The representative for my district already does everything I could possibly want and it’s not enough to win on even one of the major issues. There’s nothing else left that could be any worse, and there’s no way for any candidate to be any better.

(Or get a clue. Either way)

Why would anyone leave Canada ????

It seems to me that a lot of normal British people have no idea that this is going on – that one needs to not live in the country in question in order to better see the serious issues that are arriving.

So:

1. Is this the case? Or is there a big group of angry Britons that are making a fuss about surveillance, etc (that aren’t on BB) that I’m missing?

2. I live in the US. If #1 is true (i.e., people that live in a state heading towards repression don’t notice it, the frog in boiling water argument), does it seem, to the outside world, that we’re heading towards a surveillance state?

I realize that these questions might seem like a joke, but it does genuinely seem that Britain is worse-off than the US, when it comes to civil liberties. Am I off my rocker? Discuss.

Jeebus, we can’t even protest on Westminster now without permission. Democracy at its finest…

‘Democracy is the worst form of government, apart from all the others’ – Churchill (Well, his daughter, not him apparently!)

I was born in Wales and came to Canada as a kid in ’68. I consciously made it my Home when I turned 16 – it made my parent do the same.

Bring your voice Home to help rally the people so Canada will not slide down the same slope as the US and UK.

mxt

The root of the problem is one of the logistics of high population densities, limited government resources and highly mobile populations. There is a need to provide for the general safety as well as to enforce the borders. If you fail to provide even that base level society collapses.

What are the options? Dictatorships solve the problem by simply making everyone equal, no one has any rights. Close the borders to keep people in. That makes things much easier. Or give everyone the same rights. Everyone can vote or access health care. Close the borders to keep people out. Still another solution would be to eliminate all government services and benefits. Maybe keep driver licenses or other essential services but toss out the expensive items. Or finally you could eliminate the people, get the population down to a more manageable level. In the past wars have served this function.

If you don’t want war and you want to live in a free and open society and you expect the population density to remain the same or even increase significantly then it seems to me you must accept some form of social control. ID cards are good for this, they work.

The big complaint seems to be government incompetence in administering these plans. In addition, non-democratic forces do appear to attempt to subvert the system to their own ends. That is a side problem so perhaps one needs better government or a different kind of government, or perhaps better skilled people. But you will still need the ID card. It’s simply a pragmatic solution to the problems of high population density, high mobility and differential government services.

So here is what you need. Better people who are educated on how to deal with living in high density cities, mere literacy is not enough. You also need better government. More accountability and greater transparency and oversight in addition to basic competence. Good luck with those.

In fact, I have had a disconcerting experience in the USA. I’m an EU citizen, so when my expat American boyfriend and I decided to visit his family for a couple weeks, I didn’t need to apply for a visa or anything. When getting my boarding pass, I had to sign a special document allowing the airline to give out all of my data (from bank details to what I chose for lunch on the plane) to the US government. They make it a “personal choice” to give that permission because it’s illegal in Germany. Arriving in the USA, I had to fill out some long forms revealing personal details (not so new), including profiling questions that also wouldn’t be allowed in Germany. Then, when I went through passport control, they took my photo and fingerprints. At that time it was two index finger fingerprints; I heard they have since extended it to all ten. Already it was creating huge lines and the people working there were unfriendly, despite info posters about this measure spouting about “guests” and “friendship” and “courtesy”. They have the right to infinitely store the data they collect from you, and I doubt that they delete it at some point, but yet every time you want to enter the US you have to go through the same process.

I’ve done this twice now and every time it made me feel very unwelcome to say the least. I would definitely not go to the USA for touristy reasons, because this kind of thing spoils the entire visit and there are plenty of places that enthusiastically welcome my Euros. I’m not your average profiling victim. I’m a pretty, young, blonde girl with a common German name and excellent English. I can only imagine how they would treat somebody who actually looks suspicious.

What’s most worrisome however, is that none of the Americans I talked to actually knew about this measure. And that includes DHS officials as well as airport security staff of non-international airports. None knew of it. Many were aghast to know that their country is doing that. A few told me to my face that foreigners entering the US are probably criminals. Well, if they keep it up, the USA won’t see many friendly visitors anymore.

This will not do that. This policy affects legal immigrants who are already following the existing processes. It does nothing to stop illegal immigrants, save marginalize them.

and human trafficking,

Again, no help here. People trafficked for sex work are either going to have false identification or be held out of sight of authorities. Unless you go house to house and even then. Those trafficked for labor would also have false id. If they are found without id they’ll simply be deported and that actual criminals, the traffickers, just keep on keeping on.

organised immigration crime

By targeting the lowest rung of the ladder? That’s like preventing homicide by issuing jaywalking summons. Organized crime will crack the id and make fakes almost instantly, or simply bribe their way past any stop. ID cards to stop the mob? No.

illegal working and benefit fraud tackled.

Finally, some honesty. It’s about money. The law enforcement benefits can only be reaped if you set up checkpoints, random searches and house to house…oh.

ID cards for foreign nationals, in locking people to one identity, will deliver in all these areas,”

No. You’re burdening people who are already obeying the law, making criminals out of law-abiding people and creating a identifiable second-class who can be discriminated against, harassed and (thanks to you) easily identified.

From the Magna Carta to the RFID. Well, it was a good run.

Your comment history consists of the same poorly-reasoned accusations in multiple threads. Can you explain to me how that fits in with the notion of discourse? It seems more like an advertisement than an interchange of ideas.

If you can’t be arsed to do anything I have little pity for you.

Are you thick? What can I do? None of the candidates on my ballot can do anything more, nor can there ever be a candidate on my ballot who can do anything more.

You keep blathering about how it’s all my fault for not doing anything, while avoiding the actual question: do what?

(I can assure you that I am not able to orchestrate an armed overthrow of the UK government just because they make non-citizens carry ID cards. Thing would have to get a lot worse before anything like that became possible)

Thank you for writing an articulate entry on the subject. I’m sure there are others who do not know how to express themselves, and you have helped stand for them.

What will be required now is great courage on the part individuals, especially, UK immigrants and citizens.

The earlier that courage is demonstrated by a vote, speaking out, or in any other way being vocal about the issue, the less will be required in the long run.

Yet, I am thoroughly amazed at politician’s total lack of respect (even feigned) in the population they “govern”.

Stay strong.

Sigh. Have you seen who’s running Canada these days? I was ruminating on moving to the UK myself if the current Canadian government stays in power much longer.

I think many left-wingers are very uneasy about voting Labour in the next election. But who else is there to vote for? A vote for the Lib Dems will, in most constituencies, alas mean that the Tories will get in. And if you think Labour’s ID card proposals are bad (and how could they get any worse?), I’m reasonably sure the Tories’ would be worse.

I’m sure you can’t say exactly how they would be worse (say, using bullet points), it’s just a feeling you’ve got. Ask yourself who benefits from that and why you’ve believe it.

‘Edward I of England’s Statute of Jewry prescribed “the form of two Tables joined, of yellow felt of the length of six inches and of the breadth of three inches’.

Brilliant! I hadn’t seen that one before (or don’t remember seeing it).

“The Sprouts” does it for me.

It occurs to me that most of the Pythons fled the UK too, though probably not because of ID cards.

If the RFID were disabled by a quick spin in the microwave and the optical code obscured by a bit of dirt or a smudge, the data would have to be tranferred by hand — slow and expensive, albeit at the risk of some officious harrassment.

Slow and expensive multiplied by most people concerned equals both an civil disobedience and a reconsideration of the wisdom of the traffic jam and financial black hole this sort of stupid and ineffective program has produced.

With some luck, the outright failure of a pilot program that is foisted on a vulnerable population will thwart its imposition on the public at large.

This post of Cory’s is the most interesting one I’ve ever read on BoingBoing because it describes clearly how liberals become fascists, a subject few people want to deal with. Thank you.