Panel finds Palin abused power; Judge orders email from her private accounts be preserved

Discuss

256 Responses to “Panel finds Palin abused power; Judge orders email from her private accounts be preserved”

  1. anharmyenone says:

    I like Sarah’s authenticity. I supported the “draft Palin” movement online before McCain picked her. The current economic downturn is the final part of a major Elliot Wave. The last time we experienced this part of the wave was 1929. When we have major economic downturns, the American people always change parties in the White House, so Senator Obama is very likely to win this election. If McCain/Palin manage to win this, it will be a major upset. I don’t like W. He’s the worst president ever. But, I can’t blame him for this economic crash. It is an inevitable part of the Elliot Wave. This part of the wave was postponed by the internet bubble and then the real estate bubble, both of which have made the inevitable crash part of the Elliot Wave worse than if we had just gotten the crash over with earlier. And now, because of this inevitable crash, we are probably going to elect an empty suit to the presidency.

    Did you know that Barack Obama sued Citibank to force them to make more subprime loans back in his ACORN days? McCain is doing a terrible job of getting the word out about his opponent.

  2. FoetusNail says:

    Tom be a little more honest, you don’t have a political agenda, you have a social agenda of intolerance and bigotry. This agenda violates every thing this country aspires to be, unless of course you are intolerant and bigoted.

    What you are really saying, is you would vote for anyone that keeps the GLBT citizens in their place, ignorance and prayer in our public schools, and promises to criminalize abortion.

  3. Michael A. Banks says:

    So fucking what? Where’s the damage … where’s the secret stuff in the Yahoo mail? Cheney probably uses a Yahoo or Hotmail account to tell his investor buddies what’s happening next so they can clean up and repay him.

    Your local cops are using Yahoo for business, too. Keep an eye on who’s at library computers (not in uniform).
    –Mike

  4. Marcelo says:

    @22:

    Hey, if she broke the law, she broke the law. Considering the report was released by a unanimous vote of a legislative council with 10 Republicans and 4 Democrats all voting yes, I’ll take a certain amount of trust in that process.

    If you’re worried about the media, you can also read the report for yourself. It’s on PDF at various websites.

  5. Mark Frauenfelder says:

    I wrote “liberal kangaroo court smear campaign.”

    And here’s why: only 10 of the 14 people on the commission were Republicans. The rest were Democrats. That’s one heck of a liberal bias, my friends.

  6. FoetusNail says:

    Gather yourself back up, if the media was out to get her they’d have her.

  7. aelfscine says:

    #78: What aspects of their agenda do you support?

  8. Talia says:

    #24 fair point there.

    We’ll see how this plays out, I suppose.

  9. Phikus says:

    Wiggy: Sure, you have a personal choice in who you vote for. No one claimed you didn’t. I am just amazed that someone who says they believe in the rule of law and claims to make up their own mind using personal research, unswayed by party rhetoric, continues to willfully make a choice supporting criminals who continue to behave as if they are above the law, simply because they have a quorum of representatives currently in office who protect them from prosecution.

    When a congressional inquiry says that their findings are that nine U.S. justices were unjustly fired by those who appointed them for not towing the party line hard enough and the attorney general, appointed by the president who in all probability inspired the firings, looks the other way, then justice for the highest offices in this country is broken. This is but one instance. There are many many others.

    Did you read the rest of the linked article, or only what you wanted to hear? “You asked us to hold you accountable, Gov. Palin. Did you mean it?
    Bottom line: Gov. Palin, read the report. It says you violated the ethics law.”
    Simply put, if you believe in ethics and the rule of law, I find it a complete contradiction that you would continue to support this unqualified person who is already enmeshed in scandal and has only been in a state level office for nearly two years. Sure, that is your choice, but you are losing credibility with each such statement, as the facts come out and you continue to ignore the inconvenient ones.

    Your last line is chillingly cynical and telling: “If ethical, crime-free behavior were requirements – no one could vote for anyone, ever.” And it is once again one of your personal behaviors that you have decided to apply to everyone else, unrealistically. Here in Austin Texas, we have a congressional representative named Lloyd Doggett. Look up his record. He is an ethical man who has never even come under investigation of any kind, much less been indighted or cited as violating any ethical or other tenets of his station. He is a good decent man. I have met him and shook his hand. He sends me regular reports of his progress. He was one of the main targets of the completely ridiculous gerrymandering redistricting that went on a few years back, and yet he stayed in office, because he is an honorable and decent man. Jimmy Carter is another such man. There are many more, but few on your side of the aisle. Why is that?

    Just because all of your favorite candidates are all under investigation does not make it so for the rest of us, or the rest of the country. Your generalizations are becoming more and more difficult for anyone paying attention to swallow.

  10. Tom Hale says:

    @ FoetusNail,

    “Tom be a little more honest, you don’t have a political agenda, you have a social agenda of intolerance and bigotry.”
    I’m not intolerant or bigoted. I have no animosity towards those you think I may have such an attitude. I’m not going to be baited into naming any particular group or why I believe in the Republican stance on the issues that concern such groups – you can go to the RNC web site for that.

    “This agenda violates every thing this country aspires to be.” That’s your personal opinion.

    “What you are really saying, is you would vote for anyone that keeps the GLBT citizens in their place, ignorance and prayer in our public schools, and promises to criminalize abortion.”
    That’s not what I’m saying at all. The GLBT citizens don’t bother me a bit, as long as it isn’t shoved in my face. As far as gay marriage laws are concerned, I believe that’s a different issue than being bigoted or intolerant.

    I don’t believe any religion, for or against, should be taught in our public schools. I don’t believe that the big bang theory is against my religion. I believe Darwin’s theory of evolution should be taught in public schools, but as only a theory. If a parent wants their children to learn otherwise, they should either teach them at home or send them to a school based on their religion.

    Abortion is the largest issue I have with voting Democrat and that’s all I have to say about that.

  11. Takuan says:

    damn commie liberal bastards, I can see them now, getting all worked up reading Chomsky and then heading out to rape good,honest,god-fearin moose slayers!

  12. EH says:

    I almost can’t help feeling a bit like the media is out to get her.

    They go after everybody. They go after Obama, McCain, Biden, Shia LaBeouf, aspiring Miss North Carolinas, everybody. As far as the political process goes, that’s a part of the filter to keep (obvious) assholes out of higher office. Being Queen of the Harpies is not a desirable trait in a President. Well, to me, anyway. The press just helps me find out one way or the other, sniffing around like the rats in a maze that they are.

    • Antinous says:

      I almost can’t help feeling a bit like the media is out to get her.

      Being Republican, as it turns out, is not a shield against misogyny.

  13. Takuan says:

    the basic right of person of half of humanity. Not negotiable.

  14. Sister Y says:

    I think a major issue that’s being ignored here is how smoking hot David Kernell is.

  15. Phikus says:

    UUBUNTU@71: You are correct. I saw the link for 2008 on the site, but that goes to other blog entries, not a continuation of the Republican Criminal list, as I at first thought. I used to have an email list that was sent around with the highlights, which I updated at the time and sent on its way, but can’t seem to find right now. I agree the shear numbers are daunting.

    WIGWAM: Why do you continue to use the “This is what I would do if in office” line of reasoning? You are not the yardstick of decent behavior in this country. Since it’s always easier to say such things from the sidelines than when in the hot seat, it makes you sound like a blow-hard, and proves nothing.

    It must be hard to be a conservative right now; to continue to try to excuse away all the unethical and immoral acts that have been perpetrated on the American people in the past 8 years as “business as usual” while McCain tries to distance himself from his party with outright lies of how “mavricky” he has been. The sad thing is that most conservatives have been so conditioned into unquestioning bias as to believe:
    Muslim = Bad terrorist person.
    Liberal = Evil.
    Socialist = Evil and unacceptable, unless it is bailing out Wall St. fat cats.
    Obama = Muslim sounding name, therefore evil terrorist person.

    But after 8 years of a complete sham of a government, the smell of decay is starting to seep past the perfume. If the corpse sits on the slab for much longer, it will be past the point of possible revival.

  16. Xeni Jardin says:

    @#25 Mark Frauenfelder that’s one helluva spread, wow. thanks for the post.

  17. FoetusNail says:

    That is not my opinion, that is the opinion of those who wrote all men are created equal. The RNC agenda you keep referring to is exactly what I referenced.

    BTW, the only way to reduce or stop abortions is to provide open and honest sex education to our children, and stop limiting access to birth control and the morning after pill. We are all anti-abortion, some of us are just realistic enough, meaning we do not let our religious beliefs cloud our judgment, to understand making abortion illegal will never accomplish our shared goal, anymore than making drugs illegal has stopped drug use. The rest of us believe in the implicit right to privacy that is the foundation of Roe v. Wade.

    The abortion issue is just one more way that the immoral minority wish to impose their religious beliefs on the rest of us. You can tell they are full of poop, because at the same time they profess their belief in the sanctity of life they support an illegal war and the death penalty.

    The hypocrisy these contradictory positions displays is truly stunning.

  18. snagglepuss says:

    Tom Hale:

    I’ve noticed something running through all of your posts other than your restating of conservative talking points, and it is this:

    You’re really, deeply SCARED, aren’t you? I wouldn’t say that you’re in a state of near panic or hysteria, but you have quite a bit of trepidation, doubt and insecurity about things that may happen in the near future over which you have absolutely no control, am I correct?

    I’m not condemning you or gearing up to attack you or criticize you about anything, by the way – I’m just asking.

  19. zuzu says:

    damn commie liberal bastards, I can see them now, getting all worked up reading Chomsky and then heading out to rape good,honest,god-fearin moose slayers!

    Then taxpayers are forced to pay to abort the rape baby. Hail Satan!

  20. Takuan says:

    anharmyenone: a republican controlled SEC freed those principally responsible for the current chain-reaction crash to create it in the first place. Look at Canada; a tightly regulated system.

    Economic cycles may have some basis in fact,but the current mess is a discrete event attributable to specific players and agents.

    snagglepuss: telling someone frightened they are frightened is an attack. Or will be interpreted as one. Dialogue offers hope, choose your words.

  21. minTphresh says:

    the report only cleared her of doing anything illegal. it stated that there were numerous instances of unethical behavior and ethics violations on her part.

  22. Takuan says:

    I posted the republican party platform statement in the Palin Debate Flowchart thread. It didn’t seem to attract much comment and I think that was because the inherent contradictions and outright disregard for observed reality make it too painful for even supporters to publicly affirm it.

  23. Takuan says:

    tut tut Sister, leave the gametes alone now, t’is unseemly.

  24. Takuan says:

    oh, this ACORN thing, it appears utter nonsense.

  25. Takuan says:

    “Has Gov. Palin committed an impeachable offense? Hardly.

    Is what she did indictable? No.

    But it wasn’t appropriate, especially for someone elected as an ethical reformer. And her Orwellian claims of “vindication” make this blemish on her record look even worse.

    You asked us to hold you accountable, Gov. Palin. Did you mean it?

    Bottom line: Gov. Palin, read the report. It says you violated the ethics law.”

  26. Willie McBride says:

    I believe Darwin’s theory of evolution should be taught in public schools, but as only a theory.

    Only a theory? In the scientific language a theory is a model of reality with the highest possible status, something that has been supported by a great number of facts and with a proved predictive power, something that has been so widely demonstrated that it is highly unlikely it will be ever disproved.

  27. snagglepuss says:

    takuan – I did think of that before I posted.

    It’s a catch-22…..I rewrote that post five times before I put it up, because I was concerned that Tom Hale might interpret it that way, but that’s why I put in the part about “near panic” – because I DON’T think he’s on the verge of hysteria, but I do think that some political and economic fear-mongering has colored some of his thinking processes….

    Mr. Hale – there’s no need to circle the wagons when I address you – I have nothing to gain by getting into an on-line beef with you, and such is not my intent…I do think that you are a good example of a reasonable person who has been affected in some subtle ways by unethical campaign tactics, ways that you may be unaware of….which may serve my larger point, which I was going to make after chatting with you and am now stating, about the EFFECTIVENESS of those tactics…

    Takuan, we cool? I ain’t here to start fires…

  28. demidan says:

    #4 posted by ssll , October 10, 2008 6:25 PM

    Am I the only one who thinks that Yahoo account was a decoy?

    Really? REALLY??? She can’t speak in full sentences do you think she is smart enough for that ploy simple as it might have been???

  29. Tom Hale says:

    I posted that just to make you happy FoetusNail and to have something to do between reading and playing with my kids. I’m not sure if BB would like me to carry the argument further. If I did, I’d just be repeating “canned” Republican comments and those tend to get removed.

    I’ll try to talk about it a bit though, let’s see what happens. Yes, we should provide sex education to kids starting at around age 14. With the abundance of condoms and saran wrap sold in stores, I don’t see how access is being limited. If abortion were to be made illegal, and good sex education is taught – emphasizing the importance of abstinence, it should have a good impact on unwanted pregnancies and the spread of STDs. On a woman’s right to privacy and control of her body, I have no problem with this, as long as it doesn’t effect the life of the baby she is carrying.

    Immoral minority – cute catchphrase. There’s no hypocrisy in wanting to put a murdering psychopath to death while also wanting to protect the life of an innocent baby.

  30. FoetusNail says:

    Please fing the time to watch Bill Moyers
    , this is the kind of hate filled crap many of Palin’s supporters are listening to.

  31. Takuan says:

    jah mon, we cool, pass the dutchy now…

  32. DeWynken says:

    PWNED!

  33. FoetusNail says:

    Why don’t the Republican faithful realize this social agenda is never going to be implemented, any more than Alaska is going to secede from the Union.

    I suppose the real question, is why do Republicans continue to fall for the blatant pandering of Republican candidates. That they never seem to understand or care their religious beliefs and fear are being exploited to gain support for political and economic agendas is obvious to everyone else. Rove and company’s employers must be laughing all the way to the bank.

  34. Wigwam Jones says:

    @ #184 Tkn


    h, ths CRN thng, t pprs ttr nnsns.

    h? cn ndrstnd f y wnt t ssrt tht th bm cmpgn hs nthng t d wth th llgd fls vtr rgstrtns tht hv srfcd. frnkly dbt tht bm’s cmpgn hs nythng t d wth t.

    Bt s fr s CRN tslf gs, t crtnly ds ppr tht t lst n sm vtng dstrcts, thy’v trnd n thsnds nd thsnds f fls nms; md-p (Jmmy Jhns), nd lts f dd ppl strght t f th cmtry lsts. nlss th nws strs ll trn t t b fls, t vrs plcs rnd th cntry, CRN pprs t hv thrghly dscrdtd thmslvs. Tht’s nt ‘ttr nnsns’.

  35. MomentEye says:

    I’m concerned that the real misdirection is the courts exerting authority over her email accounts.

    I can’t imagine another scenario in which BoingBoing readers would instinctively feel pleased by this intrusion. And I include myself because my first reaction was along the lines of #3 yahoo, Yahoo.

    But in a couple of months when this happens to someone else and they point to ‘Palingate’ it might be too late.

    • Antinous says:

      I can’t imagine another scenario in which BoingBoing readers would instinctively feel pleased by this intrusion.

      The only e-mails that are affected are those involving government business. How is that an intrusion?

  36. Takuan says:

    i referred of course to the specific of the sub-prime loan allegations – but you now attempt a segue to yet another smear. I see this as perhaps at least the third time you use such a tactic. No need here Mr.Jones, just state your case up front and defend it openly.

  37. solarwolfman says:

    “The kind of people who are voting for McCain/Palin are going to be more excited than ever to vote for her now that she is the victim of this liberal kangaroo court smear campaign”

    what difference does it make how excited they are when they go to the polls? it’s not like any ‘reason’ or ‘evidence’ would change their minds.

    Ds and Rs aren’t parties – they’re sports teams. base level supporters don’t look at issues – it’s all about identity and narcissism.

  38. Tom Hale says:

    religious beliefs and fear? My religious beliefs have little to do with my stance on abortion – and I don’t believe Republicans want any religion taught in public schools. I don’t see how fear comes into play at all.

  39. Phikus says:

    Wiggy: They why won’t you hold bush, Cheney, McCain and others you voted for and will vote for accountable for their many crimes? Once again, I call total bullshit on your claims of respect for the law universally, as one-sided as you continue to apply them.

  40. Takuan says:

    if mental/emotional security is desired, an unfulfillable platform works better than a realistic one. It banishes fear, focuses hate on outside targets, absolves the true believer, promises eventual salvation…. sound familiar?

    “You cannot reason a man out of a position he has not reasoned himself into”

    The religion meme is old and powerful. Like any contagious,host dependent organism, it has evolved effective tools to ensure its continuation. When the cells of your body surrender themselves from within to burgeoning, membrane-bursting viral particles there is little the brain and nervous system can do. To meme or virus, you are still just meat.

  41. Wigwam Jones says:

    @ #188 Takuan

    i referred of course to the specific of the sub-prime loan allegations – but you now attempt a segue to yet another smear. I see this as perhaps at least the third time you use such a tactic. No need here Mr.Jones, just state your case up front and defend it openly.

    Sorry, I missed the ‘sub-prime loan’ allegations. I didn’t read the thread very well, my bad.

    I don’t have an agenda on ACORN, nor was I attempting to ‘segue to a smear’, and I even stated that I seriously doubt Obama’s campaign has anything to do with Acorn’s alleged voter registration fraud. I am generally more upfront than you give me credit for. No hidden agenda here.

    I am terribly brilliant, but sneaky is not one of my virtues. I tend to go for the bludgeon-em-with-facts approach. In this case, I was simply questioning your statement and I misinterpreted what you were addressing.

  42. zuzu says:

    tut tut Sister, leave the gametes alone now, t’is unseemly.

    Jack: Nonsense, you’ve never looked better. A youthful companion is the ultimate status accessory.
    Liz: Well, maybe you can pull that off. You’re a man; it’s different for women.
    Jack: That is so sexist of you. To that clueless boy over there you’re a very powerful woman; technically you’re a catch. You’ve got money, status, naturally thick hair, a decent set. Why are you so against having fun in your life?

  43. zuzu says:

    Some quick replies:

    1.) Phikus, I didn’t intend for my criticisms of socialism to be interpreted as personally as you sound like you’ve taken them. I’m sorry if they came across that way.

    2.) If the unintended consequence of prescriptions and FDA regulations is that most people who need those drugs can’t afford them, and they’re denied the ability to choose for themselves which drugs are safe enough to be worth taking for their own self to treat their symptoms, then I don’t think that extra level of safety is worth it. This is a classic what is seen, and what is unseen problem. People dying of asthma because they can’t get the drugs they need easily enough due to other “protection” barriers, such as requiring a prescription, are chalked up as “died of asthma”, not “died because Advair had too many regulatory barriers to acquire”.

    3.) The economic cycle / business cycle / boom-bust cycle is at the heart of our current economic mess. It’s the result of to much credit being added to the money supply, with too little real capital to support it. “Injecting more liquidity” (i.e. credit) is not part of the solution — it’s what the problem has been all along.

    Furthermore, blaming credit card culture, now, is like the narrow scapegoating of Fannie and Freddie Mac. Yes, they’re part of the problem, but the root has been cheap easy credit from the Federal Reserve.

    4.) The Republicans really have the PR campaign juiced up again for the voter fraud issue, while the Diebold-style electoral fraud issues never seem to stick. Electronic voting in itself is not a problem, but DRE voting machines definitely are a problem. We need strong cryptography to assure that electoral fraud is mathematically impossible. David Chaum, inventor of DigiCash, has already done this with PunchScan — an end-to-end auditable voting system.

    Diebold Accidentally Leaks Results Of 2008 Election Early

  44. Tom Hale says:

    Takuan, Very little of what I’ve said today has anything to do with religion.

    I’m stepping on dangerous grounds though – I better quit for a bit and give a moderator the chance to give me a warning. I certainly don’t want to get suspended again.

  45. ackpht says:

    “That they never seem to understand or care their religious beliefs and fear are being exploited to gain support for political and economic agendas is obvious to everyone else.”

    Very few of the people I know have figured this out. That’s how we got here.

  46. zuzu says:

    I can’t imagine another scenario in which BoingBoing readers would instinctively feel pleased by this intrusion. And I include myself because my first reaction was along the lines of #3 yahoo, Yahoo.

    I think this is different than “the government demanded Yahoo officially provide them with customer information”.

    As far as cracker/hacker culture goes, she should have used more secure email. She probably should have used GnuPG. ;) The hackers were just pointing out the security holes in the email system she was using. :p

    We all cheered the MediaDefender emails being leaked, right?

    Now if the CIA / NSA / MI6 / FSB / GRU / Mossad is using vulnerabilities in software to crack databases of “people of interest”, I suppose turnabout is fair play. As for the AT&T debacle, 95% of that blame lay with AT&T for collaborating.

  47. zuzu says:

    Jack: He’s hot, poor, and eager to please. Buy him a few gifts, never give him your home phone number, and if you set a curfew, stick to it.

  48. Takuan says:

    Tom, quit doing that. Any position, if stated with civility and respect to all members here can be put forward without fear of unreasonable sanction. We have had looong threads on religion and other sticky issues (guns for example) with plenty of civil give and take. Throwing yourself to the lions does not make me Caligula. (though I’d kind of like to be, except for the last bits of course)

  49. FoetusNail says:

    I believe it was Bush who stated that every life is precious and the ends don’t justify means, so, which is it? And what about that pesky commandment, thou shall not kill? I don’t recall it mentioning any exceptions to the rule.

  50. FoetusNail says:

    Your feigned fear of moderation is silly.

    I have not mentioned your religion, but that of your bretheren. Just what is your agenda? In these few posts you have distanced yourself from almost the entirety of the Values platform you profess to support. This leaves the impression you are willing to compromise your principles to support the criminalization of abortion.

  51. Anonymous says:

    @22:

    Hey, if she broke the law, she broke the law. Considering the report was released by a unanimous vote of a legislative council with 10 Republicans and 4 Democrats all voting yes, I’ll take a certain amount of trust in that process.

    Finding Number Two

    I find that, although Walt Monegan’s refusal to fire Trooper Michael Wooten was not the sole reason he was fired by Governor Sarah Palin, it was likely a contributing factor to his termination as Commissioner of Public Safety. In spite of that, Governor Palin’s firing of Commissioner Monegan was a proper and lawful exercise of her constitutional and statutory authority to hire and fire executive branch department heads.

    Yeah, yeah. I’m totally outraged she may have used a Yahoo email account for official business, even though the hacker didn’t find anything. Really. Up there with Watergate.

  52. zuzu says:

    Can anyone reading this of the Socialist persuasion help me understand the best way to communicate to you my opinion which is roughly the complete opposite of the following:

    Socialist = Evil and unacceptable, unless it is bailing out Wall St. fat cats.

    I believe that socialism is a creeping evil, but by far the absolute worst of it is in the form of corporate socialism (i.e corporatism), and if there’s going to be any socialism at all it should be (IMHO) restrained to only individuals in dire need (such as the starving, the homeless, the deathly ill, and so on).

    How can I best communicate to you the idea that “socialism = bad, but corporatism = one of the worst things ever”?

    Note that this isn’t anti-corporatism (although I do have my misgivings about corporations having personhood and limited-liability). What I consider disastrous is government propping up and bailing out big business, instead of allowing those businesses to risk failure just as every small business and family risks every day.

    I ask this because both “socialist democrats” and “businessmen” are quick to blame problems such as our current economic calamity as a “market failure” due to a lack of regulation. When the reality is much closer to what David Cay Johnston said on Democracy Now!:

    The senators’ idea here, by the way, is striking, because—both senators—because while they both talk about market capitalism, what they are describing is corporate socialism.

    We were told the problem is the credit markets are freezing up because those who have cash to place are not at all confident they will get their money back, even if it’s only loaned out for one night, so we approved this $700 billion bailout package. When are they going to start spending the money? After the elections. Now, what does that do about overnight lending and short-term lending? Absolutely nothing. That’s not what this was about. This was a Goldman Sachs plan by the former head of Goldman Sachs to, first and foremost, take care of the people on Wall Street.

    There is a fundamental flaw in the economic theory that we have been operating on for years. And that theory doesn’t address the matters, what you spend your tax dollars on. We are not spending our tax dollars on greasing the wheels of commerce, building a stable society, educating people and removing the shocks from things like accidents and disease. We are spending it on income transfers to the rich, on war, on interest on the national debt. And it’s impoverishing us steadily. Neither one of these presidential candidates is addressing the need for fundamental reform to build a sound economy that will take us into the future.

  53. FoetusNail says:

    I have very carefully chosen my words to discuss your fellow Republicans and Fear has everything to do with it.

  54. Takuan says:

    (have chores, back later, maybe I’ll find another bleeding,old man on the rocks)

  55. minTphresh says:

    wiggy, i’m sure if it was obama’s e-mail account, you would be singing a much different tune.

  56. Tom Hale says:

    Takuan, OK – but you know as well as I that I have to measure what I say carefully. I can’t take popular Republican memes and copy and paste them here s mny f th lft d. – and as I’ve said before, I have no problem with that, I know what Antinous and Teresa have said on the subject. Still, I bet you 5 dollars that what I said in post #91 doesn’t stay as is.

    #96 FOETUSNAIL, Now you’re bringing religion into the conversation, something I’ve tried to avoid to prove that what I believe isn’t based on religion. And – Theologically, every life is supposed to be precious, but if you look at my posts, you’ll see that I fall short of being a perfect Christian. Someday, I hope to not enjoy some of the things that would make my preacher cringe,, but honestly, I go to church just to set a good example for my kids and to stop that horrible screeching sound (my wife when I don’t do as she commands). I believe a lot of what the Bible teaches, but I think some of it was written in a certain was to reach the very simple minds of people living back then. Plus the Bible has been rewritten a few times and parts added, others removed. I’m hoping that my just being a good person and following the Golden Rule will let me slide into a pleasant afterlife.

  57. FoetusNail says:

    Takuna @94, the beauty of the written word.

    I just got both of my boys to sleep. Peace surrounds me.

  58. Jack says:

    @#190 POSTED BY ZUZU

    Furthermore, blaming credit card culture, now, is like the narrow scapegoating of Fannie and Freddie Mac.

    True to an extent, but the psychology created by a culture where people believe they are permitted anything because they simply “dream” it and not placing a foundation beneath that is the cause of this mess on all levels.

    In fact, while there are always complaints about “the younger generation” from old coots over the years, it’s pretty much undeniable that what sets apart todays youth from other generations is the constant fantasy of unlimited credit most young people nowadays have grown under.

    There are people out there who truly believe they can max out their credit cards and then magically their band’s demo will “hit big” and then their problems are solved.

    This credit stuff and the problems surrounding it are based on delusions and not dreams. And the very concerted efforts by credit companies to never explain the difference and thus the mess we’re in.

  59. Jack says:

    Also:

    We need strong cryptography…

    No, we don’t. What we need is to use tried and true methods of counting votes and not be entranced by computers and technology so much.

    How about making an improved mechanical voting system instead of this stupid touch screen nonsense.

    Good tech is not just glowing lights and silicon chips. Sometimes it’s base and simple and it works.

  60. FoetusNail says:

    Yeah, I love the Golden Rule.

    There is no right or wrong
    There is what we prefer
    Either pleasure or pain

    So, when you say
    Do unto to others,
    As you would have them
    Do unto you;
    Make damn sure
    That the people
    You are dealing with
    Aren’t into a good spanking.

  61. FoetusNail says:

    Vanity is the quicksand of reason.

  62. Skullhunter says:

    #91:

    “Immoral minority – cute catchphrase. There’s no hypocrisy in wanting to put a murdering psychopath to death while also wanting to protect the life of an innocent baby.”

    Nice appeal to emotion. I guess it wouldn’t have the same impact if you said “There’s no hypocrisy in wanting to put someone to death who may or may not be a murdering psychopath while also wanting to protect the life of a mass of cells that might possibly become an innocent person one day.”

    I have no problem with the idea of the death penalty. As long as it is absolutely 100% certain that the person being put to death is actually guilty of the crime in question. If not, life without parole. It’s a lot easier to release an innocent person from prison than it is to release them from death.

    So essentially, you have no problem with the idea of possibly putting an innocent person to death, but you have a problem with removing a mass of cells that is not yet sentient nor will it become sentient on its own outside of a woman’s body. I’m not even going to ask if you’ll make exceptions for pregnancies that occur as a result of rape or incest because honestly there shouldn’t need to be exceptions. If a woman doesn’t want to bring a pregnancy to term then nobody has the right to tell her she has to. Also, you should understand that a government that can prohibit abortions can also compel them; once you’ve established the precedent that the government can tell you what to do with your own body you’ve opened a door you’ll not be able to easily close again.

    Now if you consider abortion murder, what penalty would you suggest be levied against the person performing the procedure? Murder? Would the mother also be charged as an accessory to murder, and if so, would either be eligible for the death penalty or would you be willing to just let them serve 25 to life? How far are you willing to go with the “abortion is killing innocent little babies” idea?

    Outside of abortion, what else do you feel women should be prohibited by law from doing while pregnant, so it “doesn’t effect the life of the baby she is carrying”? Drinking? Smoking? Exercising? Engaging in sexual activity? Exactly how much power are you willing to give the government over a woman’s body, given that all of those things mentioned and more I’ve left unmentioned can all cause complications to pregnancies? If a woman miscarries, is it cause for a criminal investigation, to see if she engaged in some kind of behavior that caused it?

    I keep hearing that conservatives and Republicans don’t want a nanny state, but they still seem intent on building one that’s incredibly invasive. Probably why I don’t shed any tears over Palin’s hacked email account.

  63. Tom Hale says:

    Correction – Above in #92 – It should read, “…written in a certain way to reach…”

  64. FoetusNail says:

    SKULLHUNTER: They are not even willing to allow abortion to save the life of the mother, never mind rape or incest.

  65. Phikus says:

    ZUZU@100: I am far from being a socialist, but I will explain why I brought that up. The axes of modern government would seem to run between Capitalist and Socialist tendancies. We have never had a pure version of either on the face of the Earth, nor should we. I mentioned socialism in the context that it has been conditioned into being a dirty word to the conservative mindset, especially recently in regards to providing universal health care.

    The European model of this seems to be working very well, from what I have seen, and does not infringe on individual property rights or the mechanisms of Capitalism, unless you count corporatist monopolistic schemes of the insurance and pharmaceutical companies, which are way to powerful here imho.

    We already have a number of “socialist” institutions in the US that are taken for granted. The fire departments, police, many utilities, hospitals, etc. are publicly funded. These are things should not be privatized, in promoting the public’s best interest. Some things like prisons and utilities that we have seen privatized have already proven to have disastrous results (Wackenhut, Enron etc.)

    In short, we must find a better balance to serve the people’s best interests to meet the demands of the changing times. By labeling universal health care as socialist / evil we are not getting any closer to reaching a consensus; only polarizing things further. But hey, most conservatives these days seem far from attempting to have a rational discussion about the real issues, which was my original point.

  66. Tom Hale says:

    Correction – Above in #107 – it should read, “…Above in 103 – It should read…”

    My keyboard is possessed.

  67. buddy66 says:

    ZUZU,

    What does this mean? — Socialism: is not an alternative to capitalism; it is an alternative to any system under which men can live as human beings.

    How can men live as anything other than human beings? I don’t get it. Surely “human beings” isn’t open to interpretation, is it?

    “What we have here [Luke] is a failure to communicate.”

  68. Glossolalia Black says:

    Every once in a while, I try experimenting with having a political opinion completely 180 from my own. Pro-life, Republican, heteronormative, Dominionist Christian, what have you. It improves me as a writer, and gives me the bends similar to LSD. I don’t keep the opinion, mind you. I just exercise what it would be like to believe that Sarah Palin was actually qualified to be Vice President, that the Republican party gives a shit about poor working class people, that Obama was a secret Muslim, that somehow being a Muslim disqualifies you from being a human or even a President, that white American people are superior to everyone else on the planet, and that those fucking Mexicans want my job.

    And then I realize that it’s time wasted; that there are probably not enough people truly of that persuasion who would ever entertain the idea that maybe they’re wrong, or even experimentally believing that possibly they’ve been terribly lied to, that they’re horribly scared and unable to express it for fear of seeming weak in the world’s eyes, that maybe, just maybe, Obama would simply do a better job if they gave him a chance, that Mexicans have rights too, that English is spoken better in other countries and by non-native speakers, that speaking English doesn’t make one superior, that we’ve been awfully gluttonous and irresponsible as a society for far too long, etc.

  69. zuzu says:

    By labeling universal health care as socialist / evil we are not getting any closer to reaching a consensus; only polarizing things further.

    Well… universal healthcare (or single-payor healthcare, or socialized medicine, or whatever you want to call state-sponsored healthcare) is awfully socialist. The diagnostic question is “How can we make the most of our scarce healthcare products and resources?” Universal healthcare has the same problem as every other socialist endeavor: the economic calculation problem.

    A major flawed assumption people seem to suffer from is that healthcare is somehow inherently expensive. This is not true.

    What has happened is that employer-paid health insurance has been abused to the point that institutional medicine knows they can vastly inflate the prices of their products and services, so healthcare seems insanely expensive because it doesn’t have market pressures to bring the prices down to earth. In other words, as with the asset bubble in housing, we have corporate socialism to the medical industry — to the detriment of consumers (i.e. the patients).

    Medical insurance is a red herring; we need to focus on health consumerism.

    We need to stop shielding the medical-industrial complex from market pressures to force them into lowering the price of drugs, doctors, and diagnostic technologies — particularly by cutting overhead, demanding innovation, and ending the public perception of medical practitioners as deserving any more privileged reverence than an electrician or plumber or car mechanic would have.

    The AMA as a union could also use some shaking up like the Teamsters received, and stop withholding the supply of doctors from the market that keep salaries artificially high. This would then drive down the cost of medical school, or at least open it up to lower-cost competition as well.

    If the doctors won’t play ball, then parallel practitioners such as nursing and medical technicians (or new forms of such competitive practice) should be allowed and encouraged to provide lower cost alternatives (and thus competitive pressures) to doctors.

    I mentioned socialism in the context that it has been conditioned into being a dirty word to the conservative mindset,

    The point I wanted to make then was how to best form a coalition between fiscal conservatives and “left” liberals on the agreement that corporate socialism must not be tolerated or enabled. (e.g. with a $700 billion bailout, or with farm subsidies)

  70. MrSquirrel says:

    And yet they still call the guy who guessed her password hint a “hacker”. They want to prosecute him with the threat of up to 5 years and stiff fines. He has plead not guilty.

    I think this was a decoy as others have speculated. It defused the issue at the time, of her using private e-mail accounts specifically to avoid transparency of public records.

  71. jackie31337 says:

    Tom Hale @91: “With the abundance of condoms and saran wrap sold in stores….” [my emphasis]

    Please tell me you do not honestly consider Saran wrap a contraceptive. Saran wrap is for keeping your leftover casserole from drying out in the fridge. It is not, nor has it ever been, intended as or effective as a contraceptive. Misconceptions like this are exactly why we need open, honest sex education, starting a HECK of a lot earlier than 14 (my grandmother was 14 when my dad was born… clearly she had figured out how to have sex before the age when you would recommend teaching her about it).

    The thing about abstinence is that it works great provided you’re not having sex. A LOT of teens are having sex, and there is really very little adults can do to influence that by the time they’re teens. They need to know accurate facts about sex and they need to know them before they become sexually active. Countries (Finland comes to mind, since that’s where I have been living for the past 10 years) where children start learning about their bodies and about sex earlier in adolescence have a much lower rate of teen pregnancy and abortion precisely BECAUSE teens know what they’re getting themselves into long before they make the decision to start having sex.

  72. FoetusNail says:

    According to Palin, she was completely cleared of any ethical violations, and has survived this partisan attack unscathed. They’ll do anything to tear this good woman down , dontchaknow.

  73. PapayaSF says:

    This is obviously not good, but on my scale of politician’s misdeeds it’s about a 1: a demerit, not fatal. There’s a certain noise-level of minor misdeeds with all politicians. If this is disqualification level, then we wouldn’t have any candidates this year.

    And it’s strange to call it “personal gain” to want to fire a state employee with his record. Tazered a kid, drank while driving his patrol car, etc. He threatened to kill his father-in-law, heaven’s sake. That’s the governor’s father and Palin’s father. (And for all that he got a five-day suspension? Wow, powerful union he’s got.) No wonder Palin targeted this guy. I would have. Wouldn’t you?

    And yes, if Palin were a Democrat or a Green or whatever, I’d feel the same way. When a state employee screws up repeatedly and threatens to kill people, I want his ass fired. If he threatens members of the governor’s family and the governor tries to fire his ass, I totally understand if it got a little personal. If they went a little too far, well, OK, one demerit. But if anyone wants to be a purist about ethical lapses, then I just ask that Biden (serial plagiarist) and Obama (Rezko-assisted house purchase, etc.) be held to equivalent standards.

  74. Phikus says:

    IBDENSE@9: Here you go. A comprehansive list of Republican Criminals. Haven’t found one for the Dems, but it’s got to be a hell of a lot shorter.

  75. dimmer says:

    “I can’t imagine another scenario in which BoingBoing readers would instinctively feel pleased by this intrusion.”

    Really? I don’t think anyone has issue with Palin having personal eMail accounts: the problem here is that she was, allegedly, using non-governmental accounts to conduct government business with the express reason being to avoid having these conversations being open to investigation.

    If I work for company x, and they tell me to conduct all business eMail exchanges using my x.com eMail account, and I don’t, I’m certainly open to being fired and maybe even sued. The Palin case is much worse, potentially, as she wasn’t just breaking company policy, but law.

  76. Phikus says:

    Comprehansive = comprehensive + hansom. Yeah, that’s what I meant to say…

  77. Antinous says:

    Abortion is way off-topic. More importantly, if I gave the green light, you’d be calling each other Nazis and murderers within five minutes.

  78. Tom Hale says:

    #182 snagglepuss,
    “I’ve noticed something running through all of your posts other than your restating of conservative talking points, and it is this:

    You’re really, deeply SCARED, aren’t you? I wouldn’t say that you’re in a state of near panic or hysteria, but you have quite a bit of trepidation, doubt and insecurity about things that may happen in the near future over which you have absolutely no control, am I correct?

    No, not scared at all and that’s an odd question. If you have something to discuss, speak your mind. What I say might sound like I’m repeating Conservative talking points, but it’s honestly how I feel about my party and yours. That thing I copy and pated about Capitalism vs Socialism was, as I admitted, harsh and I don’t really think it’s completely accurate. That was posted more as an attack than as an example of how I feel and I regret posting it.

  79. PaulR says:

    #114, Jackie, and #91, Tom..

    “Ladies and Gentlemen, I present you THE FUGS!!!”
    http://beemp3.com/download.php?file=929268&song=Saran+Wrap

    Or the remastered version:
    http://www.amazon.com/Saran-Wrap-Remastered-Album-Version/dp/B00122Q8CO

  80. zuzu says:

    No, we don’t. What we need is to use tried and true methods of counting votes and not be entranced by computers and technology so much.

    Ever see the cost of a recount? I think the initial estimate when Kucinich wanted a recount in the Democratic primary was about $20,000. Much of the debacle in Florida in the 2000 presidential election was over the enormous cost and scope of recounting to make every vote count.

    Zero-knowledge proof cryptography, such as PunchScan, would allow anyone to do a recount (while never revealing any voter’s identity) with a common desktop computer, and verify that the election was conducted completely accurately — ostensibly for free.

    There’s a real, tangible, and common citizen-empowering benefit to an E2E voting system.

    Conversely, there’s a real, tangible, and fraud encouraging hazard with the current DRE machine implementations.

    True to an extent, but the psychology created by a culture where people believe they are permitted anything because they simply “dream” it and not placing a foundation beneath that is the cause of this mess on all levels.

    Indeed, but that “dream” has been fostered by severe political slanting of the economic landscape towards home ownership (e.g. tax incentives for home mortgages), and in an honest economic system that “dream” would be constrained (i.e. grounded) by the economic reality of limited credit (when issued at a natural interest rate).

    In fact, while there are always complaints about “the younger generation” from old coots over the years, it’s pretty much undeniable that what sets apart todays youth from other generations is the constant fantasy of unlimited credit most young people nowadays have grown under.

    That’s the fault of the echo-boomers (i.e. Generation Y) who’ve been brainwashed by the baby-boomers. They’re the some ones that complained that Generation X was too cynical, for frankly being realistic about the political and economic landscape in which they live.

    Those same old coots called Generation X “slackers” for lowering their expectations, but it seems that Gen-X was right all along.

    How can men live as anything other than human beings? I don’t get it. Surely “human beings” isn’t open to interpretation, is it?

    The inflection there is that socialism deals with demographics and aggregate behavior, hence socialist planning commits the fallacy of division. Instead of living as an autonomous individual, you’re relegated to being a statistic.

  81. Tom Hale says:

    I love Monty Python – thanks Takuan The Life of Brian is probably my favorite, followed by The Meaning of Life. I even have one of their CDs.

    jackie31337 – My mention of saran wrap was sort of meant to be funny – though I do know at least one promiscuous friend that thinks its wonderful – sounds gross to me. I was lucky before I was married to have never gotten a woman pregnant since I relied on coitus interruptus.

    I know there are problems with teaching abstinence only – I think it should be included in sex ed. I could deal with it being taught at 13 maybe, but so many kids are still innocent at that age. I taught my kids the facts of life when they were 10, as my dad did me.

  82. Phikus says:

    So much for “terribly brilliant”.

  83. FoetusNail says:

    Takuan, you would have made a good member or guest of the Algonquin Round Table, while I may have made a decent, though distracted, waiter.

  84. zuzu says:

    @Glossolalia Black

    But if you could stay in character long enough to push the Stephen Colbert / Onion News Network routine to its logical conclusion… to out-O’Reilly O’Reilly… I’d love to see that experiment play out:

    Hell, we should pre-emptively nuke Iran and North Korea now — from orbit. That’ll show the world who the only superpower really is. Then we’ll round up all the illegal immigrants into camps and put them to work in chain gangs rebuilding our roads and bridges. Administration of these work camps should be outsourced by FEMA to the most lucratively bribing companies in the prison-industrial complex, with Blackwater contracted as the guards. Then we’ll eliminate all taxes, except on individual income, and pay for massive graft and never-ending wars of “liberation” on deficit — because it doesn’t matter since “we owe it to ourselves anyway”. Healthcare will henceforth be managed by the Umbrella Corporation, including mandatory vaccination / bio-tagging for school admissions — for your own protection. Expanded G.I. education benefits will drive up tuition inflation so that unless you’re extremely rich, affording a college education will depend on military service — think of it as your patriotic duty. Of course, everyone will first affirm their patriotism by taking a documented loyalty oath; failure to do so will register you as an enemy combatant and removed for “processing” (the specifics of with are kept secret for national security).

  85. FoetusNail says:

    O ye of little faith, have we not conducted ourselves with aplomb in your absence?

  86. Takuan says:

    Yeah, Dorothy would have had my number all right.

  87. Takuan says:

    snicker,yep , drudge report STILL ain’t covering this (snork!)

  88. Ray DelMundo says:

    So. Palin fired an at-will employee.

    What’s the big deal????

  89. FoetusNail says:

    Perhaps, but she valued wit.

  90. Takuan says:

    you’re kidding, right?

  91. Takuan says:

    Dear Zuzu:
    How then does Canada seem to manage universal free health care?

  92. Phikus says:

    ZUZU@51: Keep going. You’ve got a long way to go to get to Phillip K. Dick land, where the McCain-Palin mob really runs wild (and you can win the big big money!)

    What about us commie faggot drug-addict aborted fetus loving eco-feminazi tree-hugging godless secular humanists? Whatchoo got fer us? We were registering dead homeless people to support our islamo-nucular terror cells in socialist Canada while you weren’t paying attention…

  93. starcadia says:

    Great post, Glossolalia Black. I don’t go as far as you do, but I do try my best to stretch my belief system enough to see things from the other angles as much as I can. Which has made me realize that ultimately either everyone is right, everyone is wrong, or everyone is insane. Or all of the above (my conclusion, generally).

    What I really hope is that we learn something every time we go through this, but I’m not sure we do. Because every single goddamn time our behavior as human beings, including my own, shocks me, even though it’s always exactly the same, and always has been. It’s weird!

  94. catbeller says:

    The kid who will now see prison for the rest of his life, either behind bars or with a GPS tracker locked on his person (coming soon!), performed a public service and cracked open illegal, secret public documents being held by the governor. She was intentionally avoiding the law which states baldly that her communications as governor are public records. She was hiding her administration’s real communications. The same technique is being used by Rove, Cheney, and other White House boys.

    She’ll never see prison. They’ll never see prison. The kid will. That’s the thing about police states; the police don’t protect you – they protect the police and those they really serve.

  95. Tom Hale says:

    Isn’t there some “thing” – can’t remember the right word atm (and I have to go to the store – wife is giving me the evil eye again)- that states something like, “if any thread goes on long enough someone will invoke the word Nazi?” I assume that’s what Antinuous was referring to.

  96. Takuan says:

    no, just as he said, not godwin.

  97. FoetusNail says:

    PAPAYASF: What the hell are you drinking? Palin violated a state ethics statute. Within days of taking office she and her husband started working to fire Wooten. When that didn’t work she fired Walt Monegan, the Commissioner for Public Safety, whom they had unsuccessfully pressured to fire Wooten. Her husband, also called the Wasilla police chief to make sure Wooten would not be hired there if he were succesfully fired.

    Are you seriously going to equate this criminal violation with plagiarism and a questionable loan which Obama has admitted to and deeply regrets. Who do you work for?

  98. Tom Hale says:

    One of my coworkers has family living in Canada – he says that his family hates their health care system. They have to wait much longer for appointments, and certain procedures that they want performed weren’t allowed. They often go across the border and use US doctors when they want to be seen in a timely manner. Yes, its hearsay, but that’s what I was told. He also says that because of their socialized health care, there are more taxes. Everything costs a lot more than in the US. On the store shelves, things are priced more and when you pay, there are three taxes added,GST, PST and VAT, which makes the product cost even more. How that balances with paying health insurance and doctor/hospital bills in the US, I don’t know.

  99. eustace says:

    Papayasf @47, I wouldn’t argue too hard over the point you raised (wanting to have the trooper fired), and it would be easy to forgive calling the public safety commissioner in to make your case and exert your clout. But to fire him after that, when he was really damned either way (would the trooper have sued if he had been fired? It would have been arguably illegal to fire him), and with a family grudge involved, speaks volumes about her unfitness to lead, at least to me.

  100. tx_ROOK says:

    I have a feeling people would be willing to pay an bit more taxes when faced with hundreds of thousands of dollars of privatized medical bills…

    I love how nobody in this country, including the candidates (of every election) try to plant the idea in everyone’s heads that their government is free and doesn’t cost a dime. To get a fiscally stable and progressively forward thinking government you need taxes! I don’t understand why people just vote for whoever will give them the biggest tax cuts…

    Tax cuts are not going to fix the economic crisis, more taxes might.

    A universal health care system would make our taxes go up, or rather it BETTER make our taxes go up, and the tradeoff is no huge medical bills. I am not going deep into this debate but economically speaking – there is my two cents.

  101. tx_ROOK says:

    Whoever made that article header emblem…

    I work at a very slow Fedex Office (formerly Kinko’s) on Sundays, so I made that image up into sheets of stickers. Now to have fun posting profanity everywhere.

  102. tx_ROOK says:

    “I love how nobody in this country, including the candidates (of every election) try to plant the idea in everyone’s heads that their government is free and doesn’t cost a dime.”

    My sweeping generalization should read…
    “I love how everybody in this country… tries to plant…”

    Oops.

  103. Phikus says:

    More to the original topic:

    Palin Talks to Alaska Reporters about Troopergate

    I would love to have some of the aforementioned stickers, though I think the artist probably should have been consulted before reproducing their work (though maybe there is a CC license on it I did not see.)

  104. FoetusNail says:

    EUSTACE: He’s got no arguement, he’s just repeating the party line, for heaven’s sake. I’ve been sitting here, insomnia sucks, reading 236 pages of report, the investigation into Wooten was long closed, he was punished. They even tried to get Wooten for hunting out of season, but when they found out Palin’s father would also be prosecuted, because he helped Wooten butcher the moose, they gave up.

    Also, if he had threatened Palin or her family why didn’t they request protection, instead of cutting back protedtion?

  105. Wigwam Jones says:

    @ #195 MrSquirrel

    And yet they still call the guy who guessed her password hint a “hacker”. They want to prosecute him with the threat of up to 5 years and stiff fines. He has plead not guilty.

    Many have robbed banks with fingers stuck in their pockets to simulate a gun. They still prosecute them. It’s what he allegedly did that was illegal, not how hard or easy it was for him to do it.

    The concept that it was the victim’s fault for using a low-security email service to begin with is like arguing that a rape victim who wore revealing clothing ‘deserved it’. The crime is in what happened, not that many thought Palin ‘had it coming to her’.

    “But she was breaking the law by using her Yahoo! account for government emails,” I have read many say, here and elsewhere. “She was breaking the law herself!” Let’s say that’s true. She was breaking the law herself. Does that mean no crime can be committed on her? What if someone kills a prostitute, is that a crime? After all, she’s breaking the law herself.

    So yes, I’m glad he’s being prosecuted. If he is found guilty, I hope he does some significant prison time.

  106. zuzu says:

    @ Takuan

    How then does Canada seem to manage universal free health care?

    First of all, it’s not free, it’s subsidized with taxes. That’s really important to remember, not just from an “I hate paying taxes” perspective, but when bearing in mind the total cost vis-a-vis the aforementioned economic calculation problem. (i.e. Figuring out, “How much should X cost?” is a real problem, and the inefficiencies of bureaucracy usually means erring on the side of more expensive.) As well as bearing in mind opportunity cost — all of the good that could have been done with the money left over if healthcare is less expensive.

    Secondly, the accounts I’ve heard from people I’ve spoken with who live in Canada in in the UK have echoed what Tom Hale said:

    One of my coworkers has family living in Canada – he says that his family hates their health care system. They have to wait much longer for appointments, and certain procedures that they want performed weren’t allowed. They often go across the border and use US doctors when they want to be seen in a timely manner.

    At the same time, at least for the Canadians, they particularly enjoy the double-standard of having the border with the USA, just as people in southern states enjoy the double-standard for buying sex, drugs, or other contraband in Mexico. A conversation on healthcare is often prefaced with, “I’m glad we have government coverage so that I don’t have to worry…”, but it will also stray into, “but when I needed X done, I had to pay for it in the States if I didn’t want to wait a year or more to have it done” — often with concern that they didn’t want to risk their health getting worse in the interim.

    Medical tourism, even when it’s as mundane as crossing the border from Canada to the USA, is incredibly illuminating into probing what’s wrong with both the Socialist (Canada) and the Corporatist (USA) systems.

  107. Phikus says:

    Just hit yourself in the head with a brick until you see stars and stripes. That should do the trick.

  108. Phikus says:

    WIGWAM: Speaking of blaming the victim and your rape analogy. You do realize that’s exactly what Palin did, right?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/26/opinion/26fri4.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

    http://www.alternet.org/election08/102327/memo_to_media:_the_palin_rape-kit_story_has_not_been_'debunked'/

    Blaming the victim is exactly what conservatives do, consistently, until they themselves fall on hard times. Financial institutions crumbling? It’s the loan recipients’ fault. Falling through the cracks in the screwed up economy? Well, then you’re a “lazy dumb bastard who doesn’t plan ahead”. Funny how you only seem to see this in those you disagree with, turning a blind eye to the hypocrisy in your candidates and elected officials of choice.

    ZUZU: How about suggesting something that can work in the short-term to rescue the suffering, for those of us who can’t wait for the medical market to be restructured? Everyone I’ve spoken to that needed medical attention in the UK were in and out in like 15 minutes, without all the B.S. paperwork you can’t even begin to get through in a similar amount of time in the US.

  109. FoetusNail says:

    This was not about protecting anyone; she is being accused of using her office to destroy Wooten’s career.

  110. zuzu says:

    I love how nobody in this country, including the candidates (of every election) try to plant the idea in everyone’s heads that their government is free and doesn’t cost a dime. To get a fiscally stable and progressively forward thinking government you need taxes! I don’t understand why people just vote for whoever will give them the biggest tax cuts…

    I mostly agree. However, I would add that by extension of “everything the government does is magically free and unlimited”, neither politicians nor much of the public seem to express any concern about the exorbitant spending. I’m all for lower taxes, but it requires less spending to compensate. I’d start cutting the fat with eliminating all of the war and military bases the USA operates on foreign soil.

    McCain talks a good game about fiscal responsibility, while never daring to mention the elephant in the room of the military budget. (This is how you know McCain is bullshitting you about stopping government malfeasance.)

    Tax cuts are not going to fix the economic crisis, more taxes might.

    The problem is simply the Laffer curve. Because taxes are a rate, if taxes are raised too high, people will simply cut back or stop doing the things that are taxed. (Conversely, this is why lowering taxes encourages economic growth.) It’s not a linear relationship between more taxes == more government revenue. The tax question requires asking “How can government revenue be increased?” (While also asking, “How can we stop hemorrhaging such a metric fuckton of money?!”)

    Jon Stewart sums it up best: We’re in a clusterfuck to the poor house.

  111. Phikus says:

    ZUZU: Much of what you say I agree with. My only argument previously was that the word socialist has been used as a label too handy for demonizing things that can be constructive to our society, and anyone who equates it with evil needs to apply it across the board to handouts for the rich as well.

    What you espouse, however, would seem to me to be long term solutions, whereas someone like me who has asthma and is currently without health insurance cannot wait until the whole market evolves to be able to breathe. And god forbid that some other ailment might come into my life in the meantime. (*knocks on wood*) The pendulum has swung so far to the side of corporate interests that it needs to swing a bit the other way to provide people like me some relief in the short term. Many of us are in a state of emergency about getting the basic health care we need.

    From what I can tell, it seems to be working pretty well in most of Europe. I know taxes are higher there, but so is the standard of living. Americans currently are working more hours per day and days per year than any other Western nation, while we have the largest gap between worker and CEO pay in the world. Kleptocrats have bled the treasury on defense, wars, no-bid contracts to profiteers, and banker bailouts, while the people have nothing to show for it. Why can’t we take care of basic needs like food, shelter, education and medicine for a change?

  112. rrsafety says:

    Stll wth th Pln?

  113. zuzu says:

    @Phikus

    Here’s one quickie for something that can be done immediately:

    Implement what Peter Rost suggests in The Whistleblower: Confessions of a Healthcare Hitmanlegalize parallel trade in pharmaceuticals, so that everyday Americans can enjoy the real benefits of Free Trade by getting the best price on any medicine (or medical technology) available anywhere in the world.

  114. Takuan says:

    RR, quit it.

  115. tdawg says:

    An important clarification. You state that Palin “unlawfully abused her authority by firing the state’s public safety commissioner.”

    But in fact, the investigation found that Palin breached her legal, ethical duty in the pressure she exerted to get Trooper Wooten fired (Finding 1). The firing of Monegan, while maybe partly motivated by his refusal to fire Wooten, was actually lawful (Finding 2).

  116. Takuan says:

    “All this was inspired by the principle–which is quite true in itself–that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying. These people know only too well how to use falsehood for the basest purposes.”

  117. mikelotus says:

    Just think. McCain could have picked Liebermann, beaten the religious wing-nuts down on the convention floor in front of the whole country instead of having Guliani demonstrate why he only got one delegate, and changed the dynamics of the race. Liebermann may support him on Iraq but he is hard core social liberal and elevated Lindsey Graham more (who kept pushing him to pick Liebermann and would be a Democrat if he wasn’t from South Carolina) and possibly be winning or even at least. Palin would be a nothing except another corrupt, Alaskan governor that no one cares about. Oh well. Audacity is for the winners.

  118. Jake0748 says:

    RRSAFETY – don’t like it? Bored with it?

    DON’T READ IT.

  119. erzatsen says:

    too much palin.
    and steampunk.
    and apple.
    and lego.
    whaaah!

    more sliderules.

  120. buddy66 says:

    @ZUZU et al. on socialism,

    I like socialism. Here’s why:

    I spent part of my life in rural Tennessee: TVA.

    I went to college : G.I. Bill.

    I retired 10 years ago: Social Security.

    I got sick: Medicare.

    Hell, YES, I LIKE SOCIALISM!

    And all those who don’t can kiss my warm, recovering, educated, hillbilly ass.

  121. Wigwam Jones says:

    @ #208 Phikus

    WIGWAM: Speaking of blaming the victim and your rape analogy. You do realize that’s exactly what Palin did, right?

    I beg to disagree. It would the ‘exactly the same’ if Palin had stated that victims of rape deserved it, and that rapists should not be prosecuted.

    Blaming the victim is exactly what conservatives do, consistently, until they themselves fall on hard times.

    I have often felt the same way about liberals, but I think it is an irrational, emotion-based reaction within myself, and I struggle to combat it, because I do not believe it is true. About liberals or conservatives.

    Financial institutions crumbling? It’s the loan recipients’ fault. Falling through the cracks in the screwed up economy? Well, then you’re a “lazy dumb bastard who doesn’t plan ahead”. Funny how you only seem to see this in those you disagree with, turning a blind eye to the hypocrisy in your candidates and elected officials of choice.

    It’s a nice job at attempted obfuscation, but I haven’t turned a ‘blind eye’ to anything. I responded to a statement made in this thread, within the context of that comment. You go far afield of that in an attempt to distract, which is legitimate debate technique, but if your opponent catches you at it, it doesn’t work.

    • Antinous says:

      Wigwam,

      Lots of opinions, not so many facts. I see other commenters delivering up a lot more citations to prove their points. You’re welcome to have your opinion, but people will take it for exactly what it’s worth. Links to widely recognized news organizations like the NYT and BBC are always welcome. Otherwise, you’re just gassing.

  122. buddy66 says:

    I forgot to include “old.” So it’s [...] my old, warm, recovering, educated, hillbilly ass.

  123. Takuan says:

    you forget “wrinkly yet still somehow charming to the ladies”

  124. Wigwam Jones says:

    @ #212 Antinous

    Lots of opinions, not so many facts.

    That is exactly what it is – my opinion.

    I responded to a statement made by MrSquirrel expressing shock that the ‘hacker’ was being charged with a crime. My opinion is that the crime is the issue, not how much the victim deserved it, and I backed that up with what I believe is a valid analogy, and defended my opinion against what I feel is an invalid comparison to my analogy.

    And you have stated in another thread, I will rest here, having made, I hope, my point.

  125. Wigwam Jones says:

    @ #250 Phikus

    Wiggy: They why won’t you hold bush, Cheney, McCain and others you voted for and will vote for accountable for their many crimes?

    I believe in the rule of law. I believe no one is above the law. And I believe that when it comes to enforcing the law, let the chips fall where they may.

    If Cheney, Bush, and etc are arrested, indicted, or charged with crimes, I’m perfectly fine with that, and I would hope that justice would take its course. I personally think that President Bush lied to the nation regarding the reasons we went to war in Iraq, and I’d have no problems if he were to be indicted or impeached. If convicted, I would hope he would be treated like any convicted criminal.

    Once again, I call total bullshit on your claims of respect for the law universally, as one-sided as you continue to apply them.

    What you see in threads like these are my take on a specific issue – in this case, the young man who got into Palin’s email account. That does not mean I do not want others to face justice when they break the law, it means I made a comment on a specific issue.

    With regard to Sarah Palin, I’ve said that I don’t have a problem with her firing of Monegan, and I don’t. The report just released says that indeed, she had the right to fire him for any reason or no reason at all. With regard to her ethics violation, I have no doubt she did it, and the report does not recommend prosecution – if it did, I’d be for it. Laws should be respected. With regard to her government email being kept on a public service – if she is found to have broken the law in that regard, I’d want her prosecuted for that, too, and punished appropriately if found guilty.

    If that sounds unbelievable coming from me, I’m sorry. It does not change my political beliefs, nor my voting plans, but I still believe in the rule of law. If people lose elections because they broke the law and got caught at it, then that’s what they get. If they get prosecuted for it, then that’s what they get too. Even if I like them and plan to vote for them. That’s who I am.

  126. firstbakingbook says:

    As his poll numbers drop like a rock, I have to wonder if McCain isn’t hoping for this to blow up. What a perfect excuse to drop her from the ticket without losing face! A switch to Lieberman might at least improve his numbers in Florida.

    Maybe the council *was* biased by having 10 Republicans, just not in the way one might expect. The campaign was trying to keep a lid on this, but perhaps they’re not trying quite so hard now.

  127. Blackbird says:

    Zuzu:
    I think when the phrase “free” health care is used, it means to the person getting the treatment, and not actually FREE. If you want FREE health care…I saw a homeless guy the other day offering free exams : )

    I think there’s a lot of … misinformation maybe … about the health care system here in Canada. BASIC care is covered. Ward rooms . . . basics. If you want MORE coverage…you, or your employer (or both) can purchase additional benefits (private rooms, TV…). Pharmaceuticals are a different story too. Some are covered. Some are not covered by the gov’t. MOST are covered by your health plan with your employer. Some have co-pays, somewhere between $2/perscription up to $10. I’ve never had to pay, so I’m not fully versed on that.

    Wait times. Most people complain about wait times for ELECTIVE surgery. To put it bluntly, emergencies beat out electives everytime. Guess what, if there’s a blood shortage (which we had in March of this year) electives get cancelled to ensure blood for those who need it. Hip replacement wait times are about 2 – 3 months here. My mom broke her hip in January and had a new one the next day.
    It’s something that I think gets bandied around without much thought into it. It also may have to do with the number of people we have here versus the US. If the numbers follow, we have ONE doctor for basically every 10 of yours. Say my one doctor gets ill for a period of time…that would mean NONE of his work is being done. Those patients would need to go to another doctor. Here there’s less of a choice of doctors simply due to the fact that theres less doctors.

    Doctors Pay is another big issue that I won’t even get into (but thought it was a good idea to mention it!)

    I think the last thing I’ll say is…were a nation of whiners. NOTHING will ever be good enough, fast enough, or cheap enough for us. We will always complain. The health care system isn’t the best…no ones is. There are problems all over the place with everybody’s health care systems. It’s ALL about profit (and it shouldn’t be). Why else would an Advil cost $8.

  128. Phikus says:

    Ok, I think that’s all we need for the night in the descriptive imagery of our body parts department. Thanks. =D

  129. Blackbird says:

    To clairify. Only the first paragraph was for Zuzu. : )

  130. Takuan says:

    but I hadn’t even got to the “hobnailed by honorable calluses of noble experience in a Sean Connery in his later years prior to publication of his spousal abuse sort of style….”

  131. grimc says:

    @134

    I saw that video elsewhere. It made me angry and sad. If anything happens, jeebus forbid, McCain and the GOP should have hell to pay.

  132. dimmer says:

    Sadly, the rank’n’fool public have no idea what real Socialism is: they’ve been brainwashed to see Socialism and Communism as 1/ interchangeable 2/ evil 3/anti-American. I doubt we’ll be able to take that view out of discussions anytime soon.

    The Universal Health Care issue is damning: the US is the only developed country that doesn’t have such a system, the other countries do NOT have higher tax rates overall, it does NOT mean you can’t see whatever doctor you want (your health care plan today probably does, or at least charges you to go “off plan”.)

    That said, I don’t think UHC should apply to Martians personally. Nasty green things that give rise to awful novels and even worse movies and even worserer music albums…

  133. Tom Hale says:

    Takuan could probably quote this from memory, but…

    From: Socialism vs. Capitalism: Which is the Moral System – by: C. Bradley Thompson

    An excerpt: Socialism is the social system which institutionalizes envy and self-sacrifice: It is the social system which uses compulsion and the organized violence of the State to expropriate wealth from the producer class for its redistribution to the parasitical class.

    Despite the intellectuals’ psychotic hatred of capitalism, it is the only moral and just social system.

    Capitalism is the only moral system because it requires human beings to deal with one another as traders–that is, as free moral agents trading and selling goods and services on the basis of mutual consent.

    Capitalism is the only just system because the sole criterion that determines the value of thing exchanged is the free, voluntary, universal judgement of the consumer. Coercion and fraud are anathema to the free-market system.

    It is both moral and just because the degree to which man rises or falls in society is determined by the degree to which he uses his mind. Capitalism is the only social system that rewards merit, ability and achievement, regardless of one’s birth or station in life.

    Yes, there are winners and losers in capitalism. The winners are those who are honest, industrious, thoughtful, prudent, frugal, responsible, disciplined, and efficient. The losers are those who are shiftless, lazy, imprudent, extravagant, negligent, impractical, and inefficient.

    Capitalism is the only social system that rewards virtue and punishes vice. This applies to both the business executive and the carpenter, the lawyer and the factory worker.

    http://www.ashbrook.org/publicat/onprin/v1n3/thompson.html

  134. Phikus says:

    ZUZU: Ok, I will add that to my list of things I would like to see decriminalized.

    WIGWAM: I think it is a valid point that Palin, as mayor of Wasilla made sure that the victims of rape had to pay for their own rape kit. Surely you can see that this is adding insult to injury as well as making the victim pay additionally for the crime perpetrated upon them. Most rapes still go unreported because of the stigma attached to such victims (incorrectly), as well as the invasiveness of such investigations. That a so called “femenist” could be such a monster to her own gender is unfathomable and it is appalling that this is still under-reported by the mainstream press.

    It is also a valid point that you continue to turn a blind eye to such egregious behavior in defending her, here in this thread and in others here at BB.

    I am not attempting to distract or obfuscate anything here. I was simply pointing out that your saying the one who revealed the lack of security on Palin’s non-govt. email acct. which she illegally did govt. business on should meet the full measure of justice while you overlook Palin’s many crimes to date is pure hypocrisy. I was pointing out the tendency for conservatives in general and here in this thread to blame the victim for the crime would be laughable if it weren’t flushing too many regular folks down the drain while the fat cat criminals continue to do business as usual because of apologists like you turning the other way. Your selectivity in demanding justice belies the true agenda behind your arguments.

  135. Cicada says:

    @46 Glossolaliablack– The distinction here is easy. You assume that the state of being human is enough to give you common cause with other humans. If you picked something else as your criterion for “sameness”, whether that was race or culture or class or religion (or all of the above) you’d likely view others as something of a threat and the rest follows naturally.

    The choice is fairly arbitrary. You might include all people, PETA includes all animals, the KKK excludes quite a lot of people, extreme political groups exclude their opponents, etc, etc.

  136. Wigwam Jones says:

    @ #248 Mintphresh

    You would be mistaken. I’m a law and order dude. Spent a decade enforcing it, and I am in favor of it. If the guy had broken into anyone’s email, Obama, Clinton, anybody, I’d be in favor of prosecution and serious penalties.

  137. insomma says:

    FoetusNail, Thanks for that Bill Moyers link @ 37.

  138. grimc says:

    Yes, there are winners and losers in capitalism. The winners are those who are honest, industrious, thoughtful, prudent, frugal, responsible, disciplined, and efficient.

    FAIL

  139. minTphresh says:

    here is todday’s article aboput even more egregious behavior by our wonderful Bible Spice: http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/wire/sns-ap-palin-church-and-state,0,3764756.story

  140. Takuan says:

    winners? oh, those who chose their parents well.

  141. Takuan says:

    ask anyone who lived under the worst excesses of Russian “communism” or Mao: Who got along? We do not have economic systems, we have personality types.

  142. Tom Hale says:

    Winners – Losers? As a child, my family was dirt poor – Now, I’m not rich, but I own a home in a safe neighborhood, two vehicles – one new.My children get everything they want – including college (a first for my family) We’re saving enough money to easily live as we are now after I retire in 10-15 years.

  143. grimc says:

    @TOM HALE

    And…what?

    You may very well be a prime example of Thompson’s capitalism’s success; but how do you explain the millions in bonuses that AIG execs got just a couple weeks ago? Were they honest, frugal, prudent et al.?

  144. Cicada says:

    @ TXRook: “To get a fiscally stable and progressively forward thinking government you need taxes! I don’t understand why people just vote for whoever will give them the biggest tax cuts…”

    The answer’s obvious– they don’t want a ‘progressively forward thinking government’.
    Remember, for many people much of what government does is actually an impediment to their private lives and businesses, and they may well be better off with a government that did less. In short, every dollar they themselves get to spend makes them better off than giving that dollar to the government to spend on their behalf.

  145. Tom Hale says:

    #142-Antinous – well at least remove it – DVing is ugly.

    You get a lot of copy and paste here, Some are allowed to stay, some aren’t. My “What he said.” is pretty radical and extreme, and I don’t agree to it whole heartedly – things aren’t that black and white. It was the best I could find in a quick search to counter the, “Hell, YES, I LIKE SOCIALISM!,” comment.

    • Antinous says:

      I wasn’t threatening to dv you. You just seem to repeat other people’s ideas a lot. What do you think and why do you think it?

  146. Takuan says:

    bible spice! snerk!

  147. Takuan says:

    Tom: what if you get ill this year? What if, as has happened to so many others, circumstances conspire to rob you of your medical insurance?

  148. zuzu says:

    @ MintPhresh

    Field-trips to cult meetings paid for on the government dole, but rape forensic kits are just too expensive to justify subsidizing within the scope of law enforcement. Priorities!

    (Do I laugh or cry?)

  149. Takuan says:

    guilty, guilty, lying and still guilty:

    “The call can be heard HERE.

    “Well, I’m very very pleased to be cleared of any legal wrongdoing,” Palin said, “any hint of any kind of unethical activity there. Very pleased to be cleared of any of that.”

    That’s just not the case.

    One can make the argument, as Palin and her allies have tried to do, that this investigation — launched by a bipartisan Republican-controlled legislative body — was somehow a partisan Democratic witch hunt, but one cannot honestly make the argument that the report concluded that Palin was “cleared of any legal wrongdoing” or “any hint of unethical activity.”

    The investigator did conclude that Palin’s firing of Monegan was within her power, that “although Walt Monegan’s refusal to fire Trooper Wooten was not the sole reason he was fired by Governor Sarah Palin, it was likely a contributing factor to his termination as Commissioner of Public Safety. In spite of that, Governor Palin’s firing of Commissioner Monegan was a proper and lawful exercise of her constitutional and statutory authority to hire and fire executive branch department heads.”

    But it finds that Palin “knowingly, as that term is defined in … statutes, permitted Todd Palin to use the Governor’s office and the resources of the Governor’s office, including access to state employees, to continue to contact subordinate state employees in an effort to find some way to get Trooper Wooten fired. Her conduct violated AS 39.52.110(a) of the Ethics Act…”

    The report states: “I find that Governor Sarah Palin Abused her power by violating Alaska Statute 39.52.110(a) of the Alaska Executive Branch Ethics Act … Compliance with the code of ethics is not optional…

    “The evidence supports the conclusion that Governor Palin, at the least, engaged in ‘official action’ by her inaction if not her active participation or assistance to her husband in attempting to get Trooper Wooten fired [and there is evidence of her active participation.] She knowingly, as that term is defined in the above cited statutes, permitted Todd Palin to use the Governor’s office and the resources of the Governor’s office, including access to state employees, to continue to contact subordinate state employees in an effort to find some way to get Trooper Wooten fired. Her conduct violated AS 39.52.110(a) of the Ethics Act…

    “Governor Palin knowingly permitted a situation to continue where impermissible pressure was placed on several subordinates in order to advance a personal agenda.”

    Read the report HERE.”

  150. Phikus says:

    Maybe he meant terrible at bring brilliant or perhaps brilliant at being terrible?

  151. zuzu says:

    @Cicada

    Indeed, but when it comes to empire building, bailing out failed businesses / farm subsidies, or handing out $150 billion in pork and barrel, those same politicians can’t seem to write the cheques fast enough. (“Aww… we have to vote to raise the debt ceiling again? Didn’t we just do that?”)

    Is the goal to completely bankrupt the government? Because that was exactly Ayman al-Zawahiri‘s plan, which means that “the terrorists will win”.

    Adam Curtis is right; it just gets harder and harder to tell the Neo-Cons and al-Qaeda apart.

  152. Tom Hale says:

    @145 grimc, I wasn’t talking about bad capitalism, the government should have let AIG dissipate and given the bailout money to US taxpayers.

  153. Takuan says:

    one of the first and purest capitalists I knew is now living in poverty. I watched as his employees stole his clients and finally his business.

  154. Takuan says:

    if AIG and the other majors had gone under, what then?

  155. Cicada says:

    @ZUZU– the politicians doing the tax cutting and then spending with wild abandon aren’t necessarily the same as the voters who were hoping for tax cutting and less spending.

    Still, many would prefer a country where the private sphere controlled nearly everything and the public sphere had a very limited role in the public’s lives. In short, where you’d rarely have to ask yourself “now, what does the law say I can do?” before making a plan or a decision.

  156. Phikus says:

    ZUZU: I did not take your posts personally, though I did point out how the health care crisis affects me personally. I just wanted to point out that I am not the guy defending Socialism you seem to have originally taken me for, and I how don’t think it’s as dirty a word as many conservatives have made it out to be. Nonetheless, I appreciate your apology. =D

  157. Takuan says:

    any mature human society develops law so complex that you ALWAYS have to ask yourself “now,what can I do”. All of them. It may not be the law you recognize as “law”, but it is there nonetheless.

  158. Tom Hale says:

    #147 Takuan I know what you mean, but I’m lucky – I have over a years wort of sick time, Aflac, and Colonial’s disability pay. But this isn’t about me is it? I don’t want anyone to suffer – even if the lazy dumb bastard doesn’t plan ahead – still, Capitalism VS Socialism – Capitalism seems like the better choice. Someone post a kinder, gentler version of capitalism. No copying and pasting allowed!

    • Antinous says:

      even if the lazy dumb bastard doesn’t plan ahead

      Think on this: The average IQ is 100. That means that there are a fair number of people out there with IQs of 85. How exactly do you expect them to plan ahead? There are a lot of people with disabilities. Who wants to hire them? Dumb and lazy are not the same thing. There are a hell of a lot of people who simply do not have the physical or mental equipment to work a full-time job, make more than minimum wage or do anything to plan ahead. And many people who work full-time or more than full-time don’t get any sick leave and have no health insurance. What do you propose to do with all these worthless dregs of society? Soylent Green?

  159. Cicada says:

    @Takuan- Then the goal or preference is probably to avoid a mature society– keeping it inchoate, or ill-developed, or whatever. Failing that, likely to keep the customs unstated and flexible.

    Now, a society where you may need to consult a lawyer and a few hundred or thousand pages of federal, state, and local laws and regulations before undertaking any significant activity is going to put many people off.

  160. grimc says:

    @149

    And do you consider yourself the rule or the exception to it–taking into consideration your economic power versus the average Wall Streeter?

  161. takeshi says:

    @ Antinous:

    “I’m starting to wonder if Senator McCain is a closet Democrat and if he picked Governor Palin as a sure bet to throw the election.”

    I had the same idea a couple of weeks ago while talking to a couple of friends. What a way to end his career, and prove to everyone that he really was a maverick all along.

    Seriously, demolishing the Republican brand so handily never seemed like much of a possibility in an election year. Until now. Vetted or not, McCain must’ve known how out of her league Palin is, and how she would jump at the nomination.

    Also, does anyone really believe that baby is hers? She wants to take on the second highest office in the land while caring for a child with special needs? This abuse of power scandal is only the tip of the iceberg, but we’ll probably never go any deeper than is necessary to prevent McCain from winning. Oh, wait. Katie Couric already did, just by scratching the surface.

    McCain/Palin 2008: The Ticket That Imploded.

  162. Takuan says:

    try getting the permission and blessing of the local elders without any written guide.

  163. WalterBillington says:

    Throwing the election – yep, who’d want to be a Republican prez in the aftermath of W? You’d live a life of hassle.

  164. Cicada says:

    It’s generally easier to ignore or work around the local elders than the IRS, just to pick one example.

    That does raise the other issue, though– you don’t _need_ a written guide to work with the local elders because chances are good that every adult in that society is completely aware of every rule, written or otherwise, in his society. Probably including most of the precedents.
    You run into some dangerous territory once you pass the point that anyone who doesn’t study law full time can’t be expected to know all the rules, yet is expected to follow all of them. You get into some really wacky turf when even someone who does study it full time can’t possibly know the rules, either.

  165. Takuan says:

    there is a real possibility that those who created the disaster blooming today will be hauled up for trial by the new government. The scope of it banishes previous understandings about non-prosecution mutual courtesy.

  166. Tom Hale says:

    #148 Antinous, Thanks – I think most (99%) are my ideas, but sometimes, with people like Takuan and other elegant freaks that are able to quote from some mental encyclopedia… – I disagree with what they are saying and know how I feel about the issue, but have difficulty expressing it. I think I usually do well, but in this case, I wasn’t able to write an intelligent attack against Socialism without some research. In the end, copy and pasting seemed like the easiest was to respond.

  167. billso says:

    Not a big surprise that the judge wants all of her email, including those Yahoo accounts.

    Well, maybe Palin’s AG (yet another former Wasilla HS classmate) is surprised.

  168. Takuan says:

    Americans really ought to be looking ahead of the dog and pony show election. Even if they kill Obama on the eve of his victory, the real problems are not going to go away.

  169. Takuan says:

    guilty,guilty,guilty

  170. ScottyD says:

    @6 – Antinous: I think you’re the only other person I’ve seen who has said that. I’ve been saying it since they showed the picks for VP. The Republicans are not intending to win this election. They are doing everything they can to make McCain/Palin unpalatable. Like they WANT to lose. A landslide.

    Hmm… and here Bush just gave the POTUS a whole whack of powers he is too unpopular to use. But a president like Obama? With the love of “the people” behind him? Hmmmmmmmm….

  171. demidan says:

    1)Freedom of religion: that means ALL religion.

    2)Separation of Church and State: Just like it sounds, keep the two apart.

    Abortion: a personal and religious choice (see above #1) and then (see above #2)

  172. Teresa Nielsen Hayden / Moderator says:

    Wigwam @188, 189: The ACORN allegations are BS — straight Dixiecrat-style voter suppression tricks. They’re also a combination of two classic Karl Rove maneuvers: accuse the other side of your own sins, and act like something normal is new, extraordinary, and threatening.

    Polls are looking like the Democrats may well win on Election Day. The ACORN bogosity campaign is an attempt to deprive the American people’s duly elected officials of as much electoral legitimacy as possible, by suggesting that the only reason they won was via massive vote fraud.

    First important point: The Democrats are doing very well in the polls. They’d have to be crazy stupid to be engaging in vote fraud right now. See: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/53771.html

    Second important point: The right-wing propaganda machine is trying to conflate voter fraud with invalid voter registrations. They’re very different things. Voter fraud is a serious breach of the social contract. It’s also not that common. However, invalid voter registrations, whether they’re invalid by reason of fraud or error or some other cause, are an inevitable part of the voter registration process.

    Third especially important point: many of the states have laws that require that all completed voter registrations be turned in, including registrations that are obviously invalid. Even if you put your name down as Hitler Gasbag Purina von Puppychow, and claim your place of residence is the Emerald City of Oz, the voter registration people have to submit your registration to the state just as they would a real one.

    This is a good law. First, because citizens who think they’ve registered to vote should be able to trust that registration has actually taken place. Second, because it’s not the place of the organization doing the voter registration drive to decide whether someone is or isn’t a legitimate voter.

    Just think back to 2004, when one of the vote suppression scams was to run voter registration operations on college campuses, then fail to submit registrations filled out by likely Democratic voters. The victims of this scam had every reason to believe they had registered to vote, and only found out they weren’t registered on election day, when it was too late to do anything about it.

    Recap: precluding stunts like that is why so many states have laws requiring that all completed voter registrations be turned in, even if they’re filled out in the name of Jane Doe, Mickey Mouse, Joe King, Ozma of Oz, and Hitler Gasbag Purina von Puppychow, not to mention sixty-two guys named Jimmy John who live in sequentially numbered apartments. The state checks the voter registrations according to whatever set of rules and procedures it uses, and tosses out the ones that don’t meet the requirements. Those registrants don’t get to vote. This isn’t evidence of massive fraud. It’s evidence of normal processes in operation.

    Onward to ACORN:

    The organization’s been around a long time, and is a tad flaky but basically benevolent. They’re community organizers. They operate in a lot of states, and have advocated for a variety of causes. Over the last few years, they’ve gotten into voter registration in a big way.

    Why go after ACORN? Same reason the Republicans have been going after Bill Ayers: it’s all they have to work with, and the Bill Ayers thing just hasn’t been getting much traction.

    Anyway, one of ACORN’s controversial practices is paying their voter registration workers. This generates the same set of problems you get when you hire street people to pass out flyers: if you don’t give them enough supervision, some of them will blow off the work. It appears that in some instances ACORN has been sloppier than one could wish, and that the higher-than-usual percentage of illegitimate registrations they’ve turned in in some areas have made extra work for the state employees who’ve have to check them; but to the best of my knowledge, no one’s determined that they’re guilty of much worse than some instances of sloppy hiring and supervision, and inadequate quality control.

    I don’t know what’s going on with ACORN and the State of Nevada. The dust needs to clear a little more.

    The real fraud in re ACORN this election has been the Republicans’ attempt to cast them as big-city machine politicians, ward-heelers, etc., handing out petty bribes to scary inner-city persons of color.

    1. Which is frickin’ desperate of the Republicans. (See also: frootloop allegations that Bill Ayers ghosted Barack Obama’s Dreams from My Father, and other bizarre stories they’ve been trying out over the last month or so.)

    2. It’s also so far out of date that Ren Fair employees probably make reference to it in their routines. Seriously — having an established political machine in every big city was a late 19th C. thing. The days of ward-heelers and shoulder-hitters started their decline around the time the Irish were reclassified as whites and learned to pronounce the initial “th”. The occupation finally disappeared around the time that nylon stockings lost their seams.

    3. It’s not plausible. No one who was trying to coordinate a major vote fraud operation would pick a genially leaky organization like ACORN to do it.

    4. It’s not to scale. ACORN’s nowhere near big enough to produce the effects that are being credited to them.

    The comments of yours I referenced at the start of this post may or may not keep their vowels. But from here on out, assertions that ACORN is stealing the election are unlikely to fare well.

  173. Takuan says:

    if the Cheney gang murders Obama in the next few weeks, who wins?

  174. zuzu says:

    Socialism is unrealizable as an economic system because a socialist society would not have any possibility of resorting to economic calculation. This is why it cannot be considered as a system of society’s economic organization. It is a means to disintegrate social cooperation and to bring about poverty and chaos.

    A society that chooses between capitalism and socialism does not choose between two social systems; it chooses between social cooperation and the disintegration of society. Socialism: is not an alternative to capitalism; it is an alternative to any system under which men can live as human beings.

    If one rejects laissez faire on account of mans fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action.

    Socialist society is a society of officials. The way of living prevailing in it, and the mode of thinking of its members, are determined by this fact.

  175. Antinous says:

    Just think back to 2004, when one of the vote suppression scams was to run voter registration operations on college campuses, then fail to submit registrations filled out by likely Democratic voters.

    Funnily enough, I was registered in the supermarket parking lot by a gentleman who admitted that he would only get paid if I registered as a Republican. When I showed up to vote that year, my name wasn’t on the list and I didn’t get to vote.

  176. Takuan says:

    can I change my handle to Hitler Gasbag Purina von Puppychow?

  177. demidan says:

    Fear of Socialism,,,Fear of open spaces,,,Fear of Spiders,,,Fear of crowds,,,Fear of Change,,,These and many of their friends are Just that Fears. What is wrong with feeding the hungry? Healing the sick? Housing the homeless?

    Is YOUR personal wealth so important that these people should just crawl off to die just because they don’t fit into YOUR world view? Are you that cold and heartless? Really? I am not trying to preach, or dream of a Utopia, but has there not been enough human suffering already?

  178. Takuan says:

    timely reminder,pass it on:

    Ack! ack ack ackack ack AckACK! Ack!

  179. buddy66 says:

    So yahoo, Yahoo!

  180. UUbuntu says:

    @#48, PHIKIS: Thanks for the Republican Criminal list, but it seems a bit out of date (2005). Does anyone know of a more current/updated list? Googling around finds this one (http://www.republicanoffenders.com/), but that seems almost too granular (hundreds and hundreds…).

  181. Takuan says:

    ? quoting from a mental encyclopedia”???? where???

  182. FoetusNail says:

    For every word of My Struggle, 125 lives were to be lost; for every page, 4,700; for every chapter, more than 1,200,000 lives. An expensive literary property.

  183. ssll says:

    Am I the only one who thinks that Yahoo account was a decoy?

    As soon as the Republicans wanted it to be released they changed the password clue to something really simple… I think it was “where did you meet your husband?”

    I thought I read that the messages only went back to April. As soon as it was clear this could be a problem for her politically it seems like they could have gotten rid of the old accounts and set this one up to make people think that she didn’t discuss anything too personal off the record.

    • Antinous says:

      Am I the only one who thinks that Yahoo account was a decoy?

      I’m starting to wonder if Senator McCain is a closet Democrat and if he picked Governor Palin as a sure bet to throw the election.

  184. buddy66 says:

    @TOM,

    It was the best I could find in a quick search to counter the, “Hell, YES, I LIKE SOCIALISM!,” comment.

    How did your cut and paste counter my simple list?:
    TVA
    G.I.Bill
    Social Security
    Medicare

    List the capitalist goodies you live by and they’ll probably be things won somewhere down the line by “socialistic” labor unions, I’ll betcha (including municipal garbage pick up).

  185. Wigwam Jones says:

    @ #229 Teresa Nielsen Hayden / Moderator Author

    Wigwam @188, 189: The ACORN allegations are BS —

    Second important point: The right-wing propaganda machine is trying to conflate voter fraud with invalid voter registrations. They’re very different things. Voter fraud is a serious breach of the social contract. It’s also not that common. However, invalid voter registrations, whether they’re invalid by reason of fraud or error or some other cause, are an inevitable part of the voter registration process.

    I agree with you, and I wanted to let you know that I agree with 99% of what you wrote above.

    I am quite aware of the difference between voter registration fraud and voting fraud. And I agree that the one former is common, the latter, far less so.

    I never said anything else.

    I responded to (as I recall) Takuan, who said something off-the-cuff without a reference to a previous post about the ACORN kerfluffle being BS. I said as far as I knew it was genuine, not BS.

    I meant that the voter registration fraud that appears to have been committed – appears to have been committed. I made no assertion that voter fraud had been or was about to be committed.

    I am not a captive of the Republican spin machine, I am merely a conservative.

    As it turned out, Takuan stated he was responding to some other ACORN thing, and I had responded incorrectly by failing to read the entire thread. I apologized and that’s where it stands.

    The comments of yours I referenced at the start of this post may or may not keep their vowels. But from here on out, assertions that ACORN is stealing the election are unlikely to fare well.

    You may do as you see fit, of course. But I respectfully disagree that I made any such assertion.

    I see that you have indeed disemvoweled my previous post, and to me, that is a bit of a shame, because now it appears I said something I did not. That is a disappointment.

  186. Wigwam Jones says:

    @ #68 Takuan

    there is a real possibility that those who created the disaster blooming today will be hauled up for trial by the new government. The scope of it banishes previous understandings about non-prosecution mutual courtesy.

    I would find that interesting. The whole country, minus myself and a couple of other people, on trial. I mean, if we’re going to go after those who caused this mess, that is, instead of a few big-time crooks at the top.

  187. zuzu says:

    if AIG and the other majors had gone under, what then?

    Lenders that gambled on over-leveraging will go out of business, and capitalized ones will take their place. The over-production of credit and all of its associated ills will only be corrected when that credit is contracted to what is actually sustainable with real capital. The problem started with the boom, in the boom-bust cycle, when easy credit was injected into the economy. What the bailout has done is more of the same — “hair of the dog that bit us”.

    Also, to go back to the socialism thing for a moment… what I find rather interesting about which people hold which views to be true, is a kind of irony that creationists (believing in the watchmaker analogy for the complexity of biological life) are more likely to also believe in capitalism (although their interpretation of what exactly “capitalism” means is perhaps highly dubious), while at the same time the same people who will be quick to chastise creationists as ignorant fools, will also more often than not believe in a kind of watchmaker analogy for the complexity of economic systems of coordination (perhaps revealing that the only difference between them and the creationists is one of indoctrination rather than of critical thought).

    Which reminds me of a joke:

    Somebody went up to the great philosopher Wittgenstein and said, “What alot of morons people back in the Middle Ages must have been to have looked, every morning, at the dawn and thought that what they were seeing was the Sun going around the Earth, when as every school kid knows the Earth goes around the Sun. It doesn’t take too many brains to understand that.” To which Wittgenstein replied, “Yeah, but I wonder what it would have looked like if the Sun had been going around the Earth.”

    The point being, of course, that it would have looked exactly the same. Your pre-existing knowledge frames your subsequent interpretations of experience.

  188. Wigwam Jones says:

    @ #244 catbeller

    The kid who will now see prison for the rest of his life, either behind bars or with a GPS tracker locked on his person (coming soon!), performed a public service and cracked open illegal, secret public documents being held by the governor.

    A) He does not face that lengthy a prison term, even if convicted. I think someone said the max is five years.

    B) If convicted, he did not perform a public service, he broke the law.

    C) Good. If he is convicted, I hope he gets a good long prison term.

    She was intentionally avoiding the law which states baldly that her communications as governor are public records. She was hiding her administration’s real communications. The same technique is being used by Rove, Cheney, and other White House boys.

    Even if that was the case, it is not the job of citizens to break the law themselves to prove it. There was already a lawsuit against Palin going forward. The judge’s ruling ordering that the emails be preserved had nothing to do with the kid’s alleged breaking into her email account.

  189. FoetusNail says:

    Seperation of church and state in name only. My wife has returned from a wedding at a church where they are preaching Obama is the anti-christ. Damn I would love to see these places go down on 501(c)(3) violations. The Dems should be infiltrating these churches and recording their pastors.

    Bollocks, no ones ideas are 99% their own. I once heard that each of us only has about 15 seconds of original thought in a lifetime. Personally, I believe that’s stretching it pretty far.

  190. Willie McBride says:

    No wonder Palin targeted this guy. I would have. Wouldn’t you?

    Let’s assume that all the allegations were true (that’s not a given, the only witnesses are Palin family members and all of the allegations surfaced during the divorce cause): no, I wouldn’t have done so, and if you’d have you should be ashamed.

    What I would’ve done, had I been the vaunted “popular governor with 80% approval rate” and a strong majority in the House, would’ve been pushing for legislation to ensure that no abusive cop could ever do the thing Wooten allegedly did, escape punishment and keep his job. But evidently Palin didn’t give a fuck about the other abusive cops’ families, she cared just for HER family and HER problems.

  191. zuzu says:

    What is wrong with feeding the hungry? Healing the sick? Housing the homeless?

    If it’s so great, why not do it for everything? c.f. Omnipotent Government

    I’m not opposed to Socialism because of some moral imperative that “people deserve what they get” or what have you. I’m opposed to Socialism because it logically cannot possibly solve the very problem which economics (the “dismal science”) confronts: scarcity. (i.e. supply and demand)

    Socialism amounts, simply, to wishful thinking.

    Then there’s the whole problem of unintended consequences. If you saw that summer popcorn movie of I, Robot with Will Smith, that pretty much sums it up. (As well as neatly wrapping up the self-referential failure of Kant’s categorical imperatives, not unlike how Godel smashed Russell and Whitehead’s masterpiece: Principia Mathematica.)

  192. Mingross says:

    I won’t be too surprised if I turn on the tv news within the next couple of days and see a news conference with McCain saying that he’s dropping Palin from the ticket. I have to admit that I would have a hard time hiding my schadenfreude should such a thing happen.

  193. Wigwam Jones says:

    As to the notion that the Republicans would be intentionally throwing this election…if I put on my conspiracy hat, I can almost see it.

    1) The economy stinks. Whomever is elected is going to inherit a really bad one, and it’s still heading south at a rapid pace.

    2) The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are not going away anytime soon.

    3) With a Democratic majority in the House and Senate, AND a Democrat president, AND the chance to stack a few more Democrats onto the Supreme Court, potentially, if everything still pretty much sucks in four to eight years, AND we have 70% income tax rate for the majority of Americans who have jobs, the Republicans can come back and look like heroes instead of skunks.

    However, I don’t think people work like that.

    First, all politicians are supremely full of themselves. They don’t sacrifice their own ambitions for the good of the party or the country, despite what they say. Maybe a few of the third-party candidates, but they don’t win, so it doesn’t matter.

    Second, nobody thinks about politics like a war – lose the battle intentionally to win the war. It might be smart, but since each ‘battle’ results in a four-year window before the next ‘battle’ can be fought, a person has only about 3 to 4 battles available to them in their own lifetimes – for McCain, for example, it’s now or never. Again, people don’t tend to think about long-term strategies that don’t have themselves in them.

    Third, the Republicans are deeply divided. You can’t have a conspiracy unless everyone goes along with the game plan.

    So as much as it may look like it, I have to doubt that it’s an intentional plan to lose the election. They are just sucking out loud right now, that’s all.

    Like the Chicago Cubs. Do you think THEY choke at the end of every season on purpose?

  194. Takuan says:

    bullshit Wiggy, we’ve got your number. Any lie, if paraded before enough eyes as “related” gets traction. Anyone reading your post record can see the pattern. I told you at the onset to bring your game up to local standard. At this point, it’s just disrespect. Goodbye.

    • Antinous says:

      He that sows lies in the end shall not lack of a harvest, and soon he may rest from toil indeed while others reap and sow in his stead.

  195. Wigwam Jones says:

    @ #73 Willie McBride

    Let’s assume that all the allegations were true (that’s not a given, the only witnesses are Palin family members and all of the allegations surfaced during the divorce cause): no, I wouldn’t have done so, and if you’d have you should be ashamed.

    If we assume, as you said, that the allegations were true, if I had been in her situation, I’d have done the same, but not with the sneakiness. I’d have said in public – I want this guy gone. Fire him. Anybody who refused to do so would get the ax too, and no bones about it. Right out loud and in public. Let the chips fall where they may.

  196. Takuan says:

    is Palin the decoy? What rovian horror is in the cellar?

  197. Wigwam Jones says:

    @ #252 Takuan

    http://www.adn.com/opinion/view/story/555236.html

    It is a very well-written piece, and I agree with the sentiments of the author. She clearly broke ethics laws.

    Now, some of you are asking me two different things. The first is, “why won’t you hold bush, Cheney, McCain and others you voted for and will vote for accountable for their many crimes?”

    The answer to that is – I will and I do. I note that the piece you linked to concludes, “Has Gov. Palin committed an impeachable offense? Hardly. Is what she did indictable? No.”

    That means that she won’t be arrested or charged with a crime for this particular offense. I can’t help that, nor can I control it. If she were arrested for it, or charged with a crime, I would of course support the law taking its course, as I’ve said.

    The second question, which I believe is being conflated with the first, is why would I still support Palin (and others like her), and vote for them, given their crimes?

    The answer to that is that I don’t believe their crimes rise to the level of awfulness that would make me not want to vote for them – voting is a personal choice. You may disagree with my choice – I might disagree with yours – but it continues to be our own choice to make.

    I could counter-argue and throw around words like ‘Chappaquiddick’ because how could ANYONE continue to vote for Kennedy term after term considering that? But I do not, because how people feel about Kennedy (and anyone else you care to name, Dem or Repub) is different from how they feel about them as elected representatives.

    I can’t make a list of politicians who have not committed crimes and lied to their constituents – I don’t think there are any. Neither party has a lock on naughty politicians being unethical, from Barney Frank to Larry Craig. I continue to believe that if they are charged with a crime, they should be held to account like anyone else. That does not mean I won’t vote for them – or that I will. Voting remains a personal choice.

    If ethical, crime-free behavior were requirements – no one could vote for anyone, ever.

  198. Mark Frauenfelder says:

    The kind of people who are voting for McCain/Palin are going to be more excited than ever to vote for her now that she is the victim of this liberal kangaroo court smear campaign.

    • Antinous says:

      The kind of people who are voting for McCain/Palin are going to be more excited than ever to vote for her now that she is the victim of this liberal kangaroo court smear campaign.

      You forgot ‘leftist’. If you’re considering a career in astroturfing, don’t give up your day job.

  199. zuzu says:

    p.s. As for Phikus’ asthma… perhaps his asthma medication shouldn’t require a prescription, and its chemical formula shouldn’t be patented, and then he’d be able to afford it over-the-counter, available from several competing drug companies.

    Or, perhaps benzedrine should still be legally sold over-the-counter, likewise from several competing pharmaceutical companies.

    • Antinous says:

      perhaps his asthma medication shouldn’t require a prescription

      There are reasons why most meds require prescriptions. Common asthma meds are fairly dangerous drugs with a lot of side effects. Self-medicating is also a great way to completely miss what’s going on with your body until some disease that you didn’t know that you had is too far gone to be treated. I’ve heaved the corpses onto the metal gurney to take them to the basement.

      its chemical formula shouldn’t be patented

      In which case, nobody would have ever bothered to invent it or any other drug. Unless you’re arguing in favor of state-run, non-profit drug companies.

  200. ibdense says:

    Congratulations, Sarah

    You are now a real republican with a legal judgment against you.

    I wonder if anybody has a list of all the republicans that have been charged with crimes over the last 8 years?

  201. FoetusNail says:

    Here’s a slight correction. My previous comment stated, Wooten had taken a moose out of season, that was incorrect.

    Todd Palin, Gov. Palin’s husband, was accusing Wooten of taking a moose without a permit. Commissioner Monegan told T. Palin that if they wanted to charge Wooten then others would possibly be charged as well. This would include Molly, Gov. Palin’s sister, who was with her husband (Wooten) at the time he shot the moose, the permit was Molly’s. This could also include Gov. Palin’s father. After shooting the moose, it was dragged to her father’s place, where it was butchered by Gov. Palin’s father.

    Upon learning their accusations might backfire, resulting in charges against both the Governor’s sister and father, they dropped that idea like a hot rock.

    The basic series of events goes something like this: Palin is elected governor, she appoints Monegan Commissioner of Public Safety, stating his exemplary professionalism. They also make the Wasilla Chief of Police Monegan’s Deputy. Then almost immediately after taking office they began pressuring Monegan to reopen a closed investigation. When Monegan tells them there is nothing new in their allegations (they gave Monegan a file possibly created by a P.I. and pictures of the dead moose) and he can not reopen the investigation, meaning Wooten will not be fired, the Governor then fires Monegan for insurbordination, though by law, she need not state a reason.

    Also, during this time period, Todd Palin calls the Wasilla Chief of Police, who has two job openings, to tell him Wooten is a bad guy who should not be a trooper and should not be considered for a position with the Wasilla P.D. The conclusion one could draw from this is the Palin’s believed Monegan would fire Wooten for them and they were going to make sure he could not find work in Wasilla.

    Lastly, the report is 263 pages long, not 236.

  202. buddy66 says:

    Jesus H.Christ, ZUZU, you’re going to strain something! Immanuel Kant done in by popcorn? Will Smith driving a vehicle that smashes up Lords Russell and Whitehead? Oh, Lord of the many Links, you are priceless!

    WHY areTVA
    the G.I. Bill
    Social Security
    Medicare
    “wishful thinking”?

  203. Enormo says:

    I would be wearing my schadenfreude on my sleeve.

    And not for Palin. She is who she is. It’s not her fault that she was picked as the VP canidate.

    No, I would be thrilled that the Republican party’s publicity stunt backfired on them. By selecting Palin as McCains’ VP running mate they have cheapened our nation’s political discourse and reduced America’s political process to a Burger King commercial.

    They should be ashamed for selling out our country. The ends should never justify the means.

  204. Roschelle says:

    Fllw p ntrvw wth < hrf="http://rschllnlsn.blgspt.cm/2008/10/bt-h-gt-mslm-n-hm.html">pr ld ldy tht thnks bm s n rb! Sd n s mny lvls

  205. Takuan says:

    I can get Salbutamol for less than ten euros

  206. FoetusNail says:

    My opinion, is this shows poor judgment on their part. Everything would have been OK, if the Governor had never called Monegan. Todd Palin, as a concerned citizen, was within his rights to make allegations against Wooten. When this didn’t produce the desired results, the Governor should have just fired Monegan without comment, as allowed by State law. However, she made a amateur’s mistake and called Monegan personally, resulting in the ethics violation described in the report.

  207. Takuan says:

    heh,ole Matt Drudgie’s still trying to ignore this.

  208. buddy66 says:

    #147 Tom Hale:

    I have over a years wort of sick time.

    Sick time! Tom, you have sick time? You work for a GOVERNMENT, you rascal! Or you’re a “free rider” and work for a company so frightened of being organized that they’ve given benefits already won by unions

    Socialism, dude, you’re surrounded by it!#150 posted by Tom Hale , October 11, 2008 9:37 PM
    #147 Takuan I know what you mean, but I’m lucky – I have over a years wort of sick time

  209. Cicada says:

    @169 Antinous- True, they have side effects and can be hazardous…but then again, so can plenty of OTC medications, particularly the analgesics. If the asthma meds aren’t especially more hazardous, why limit them?

    Also, since a medication generally goes over-the-counter only when a manufacturer lobbies the FDA to make it so, it’s easy to see why most medications remain prescription– not that they’re necessarily unsafe, but the makers need a marketing reason to go OTC.

    • Antinous says:

      Tylenol/acetaminophen/paracetamol (which is in many OTC meds) kills 500 people in the US annually and sends 50,000 to the ER. That’s pretty messed up. It’s really easy for someone with a head cold to take a few pain pills, some sleepy-time cold concoction and some cough syrup, all containing acetaminophen. Wash them down with a hot toddy and you’ve got a dead liver.

  210. Xeni Jardin says:

    #Antinuous that mighta been ultradry humor, though I’m not the best judge.

    • Antinous says:

      #Antinuous that mighta been ultradry humor, though I’m not the best judge.

      Was there any vermouth in my comment?

  211. pauldrye says:

    An assistant attorney general told the court that the governor was no longer using here private e-mail accounts to conduct state business

    I would like the court to note that I no longer murder people with machetes, so you can just drop that pesky 11-point indictment, m’kay?

  212. Jack says:

    I’m pretty much in agreement about some over the counter meds being deadly, but not too sure prescriptions would change that. I mean, look at antibiotics. You need a prescription for all of them, but more people take it who shouldn’t than otherwise. And look at the wonderful world of drug resistant bugs we now live in!

    I think perhaps an improved education system that truly explains the ins/outs of practical workaday meds to kids would be a good start.

    • Antinous says:

      not too sure prescriptions would change that

      I wouldn’t necessarily argue for prescriptions for everything, but it wouldn’t be a bad idea if you had to get drugs from a pharmacist who asked you a few questions before handing them over. It would save a lot of lives and probably a lot of money for all concerned. To give the crudest example, how many people understand the difference between an antihistamine and a decongestant and then choose the appropriate one? To most people it’s just cold medicine or allergy medicine and they end up taking (and paying for) something which not only fails to give them relief, but may have a kickback that worsens their symptoms.

  213. Takuan says:

    hyperdry m’dear,hyperdry

  214. FoetusNail says:

    Sorry this is so late into the thread, I had to type it out, so there may be some errors.

    Quoting the Branchflower Report, this is what Palin said about Monegan when she hired him.

    Walt Monegan is a familiar name to many in Southcentral and rural Alaska. Monegan recently retired after 32 years in law enforcement with the Anchorage Police Department – the last five as the Chief of Police. Monegan oversaw a staff of 574 employees and an $80 million budget. Starting as a patrol officer and rising steadily through the ranks, Monegan has experience in every facet of public safety, including internal affairs, crime prevention, communications, emergency operations,training, anti-gang efforts, school/youth liaison, and Crime Stoppers. Monegan is credited with enhancing police effectiveness by installing mobile computers in police vehicles; implementing advanced 911 service to Alaska’s largest municipal population; writing plans to address gang and youth violence; supporting the establishment of professional standards for village public safety officers; establishing a Citizens Police Academy and resurrecting police traffic units to address drunken driving. Monegan has a Bachelor’s degree in Organizational Administration from Alaska Pacific University and an Associate’s degree from the University of Alaska, Anchorage. His advanced professional education includes senior government executive training at Harvard University’s John F. Kennedy School of Government, the FBI’s National Executive Institute and the National Crime Prevention Institute. He and his wife, Terry, have four adult children and one grandchild. Monegan lies in Anchorage. “Chief Monegan will bring to the Department of Public Safety the perspective of a career professional peace officer and administrator with a proven record of using resources effectively to address the changing public safety needs of Alaskans,” said Palin. “As an Alaska Native from the Lower Kuskokwim village of Nyac, he understands the special public safety on a statewide basis. We are fortunate to have such an experienced and well-rounded police professional heading the Department of Public Safety.”

    Somehow, after he refused to fire Wooten, Palin describes Monegan as a “rogue” who was “not the right person at the right time”. But we are supposed to believe his being fired had nothing to do with his not reopening the Wooten matter. I would love to see the resume of his replacement. Fortunately the report has completely cleared her of any wrong doing, talk about an outright lie.

  215. Tom Hale says:

    People like myself that support McCain/Palin and have watched/read the news and are at least a teeny bit familiar with politics over the last 20-30 years, only support them because they claim to support our political agenda. McCain wasn’t even in the top five list of who I wanted and Palin wouldn’t be in the top 100.

    I don’t care a bit that a panel found that Palin abused power, other than it being one more thing to show that McCain’s people did a horrible job in their search for his VP. I’m guessing they just went through a photo album of US Republican women and picked the cutest one.

  216. minTphresh says:

    phikus, as a fellow sufferer i can tell you , what works best for me is vaporized cannabis. preferably something strong and well cured. a nice sativa, if available. safe and effective, it is nature’s greatest broncho-dialator ( opener of airways ).

  217. Takuan says:

    peace be unto you, a morrow then

  218. Ashaman says:

    At best, Gov. Palin’s abuse of power is brought to court and justice is served. At worst, Gov. Palin gives another “Checkers Speech” and the nation promptly forgets the entire matter.

  219. FoetusNail says:

    Unfurtunatly, the troll @#8 is probably right.

  220. Art says:

    @#2 Takuan,

    You’re darn tootin’ correct!
    Amen! (so to speak)

  221. FoetusNail says:

    Like my father’s martinis, he usually just opened the vermouth and waved the bottle around somewhere in the vicinity of the vodka.

  222. Phikus says:

    ZUZU: Believing someone is going to make my daily intake of ADVAIR affordable (instead of the current price tag of $600 a month w/o insurance. Even with it, the last plan I had made the cost $100 /mo. and then there’s the Albuterol on top of that) right now based on competing market forces is like believing Stalin or Mao would redistribute wealth appropriately. You have been picking the wrong fight to try to say that I have been advocating Socialism as primary model for society or government.

    As I said originally, all democratic governments today are already a mixture of both Socialism and Capitalism; a balancing act, with either extreme becoming increasingly detrimental to the people in a society. Your comment “If it’s so great, why not do it for everything? c.f. Omnipotent Government” proves you totally missed that point in attacking your big socialist straw man. I was simply saying that if we accept a certain amount of basic social services should be provided by the government (as I listed them) then why not medical care, seeing as 1) the model in practice seems to work very well in most other civilized parts of the world, and 2)the current corporatist monopolies have forced suffering on millions for their own fat coffers. I already have to fight for every breath. Why should it be against multi-conglomerate behemoths that already have way too much money and influence?

    For the record, I am a strong believer in free enterprise, and I believe it drives innovation. There is still plenty to go around, influencing companies to invest in developing new drugs and new technologies while still taking care of the sick and dying without costing them an arm and a leg. Can’t we just take care of the needy instead of the greedy for a change?

    Capitalism is in the process of imploding because of too much deregulation and too many who have been able to manipulate the system for their own benefit. All bubbles of this sort will inevitably burst. Only with a careful balance of regulation can there be a fair playing field established to allow economies to flourish, to give small businesses a fair shake to come up with new innovations and expect to be able to compete in the marketplace.

    You quoted: “If one rejects laissez faire on account of mans fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action.” No. Just because one extreme doesn’t work does not mean that the other will. Just because man is fallible does not mean he cannot achieve some measure of justice; some measure of balance between extremes that allows personal liberty to flourish while still providing for the basic necessities of survival. That, I believe, is the true destiny of the American Experiment. We just have to get the mixture right.

    Tom Hale: I’d like to describe where your head is at, but that would go against what I said earlier about not describing certain body parts. I am offended by your statement, typical of conservatives in general, that all failings of a person to meet their needs must be because they are a “lazy dumb bastard [who] doesn’t plan ahead”. There are many circumstances that can conspire to put one into a compromising position financially these days, and there but for the grace of his noodly appendage go you. You’d better hope and pray to the god you pay lip service to that you never come to eat those words. Perhaps, in lieu of something to say that contributes to a conversation positively in your own synthesis of ideas, you might refrain from typing anything at all and spend more time playing with your kids and pleasing your wife, as amusing as it may be to hear about your whipped existence. I tried to reach across the aisle to you once, but if you continue to spout off about things you do not have the desire to educate yourself on, then you can expect that the holes in your logic will be exposed for what they are in a public forum.

  223. Takuan says:

    yass, they do let anyone in here these days….

  224. Phikus says:

    Minty: ‘Tis true, but does not do the trick alone for me (at least at a dosage where I can still be able to reasonably function at work,) but you bring up a good point. I should not have to risk time in jail just to dilate my bronchioles either. When prisons are no longer privatized and the feds (in the name of small government) are not intruding into our basic right to seek this highly valued medication (pun intended) then I know I will breathe easier. =D

  225. Not a Doktor says:

    that kid is my hero

  226. IamInnocent says:

    What happened to voting for the good of the country ?

    Wouldn’t you rather elect some competent and honest politicians (find them, draft them whatever but do something: they exist), who may stray from your political agenda form time to time, than incompetent, egotistical fools like Cheney and Co who ran the best country in the World right into the ground and, for good measure, screwed every true conservative idealist that was left ?

    J.

  227. Cicada says:

    As far as antihistamines versus decongestants go, part of the difficulty there would be picking the product off the shelf that has the particular combination of antihistamine, decongestant, mucolytic, pain reliever and cough suppressant that you happen to want. Grabbing the bottle of Nyquil and figuring it’ll do the trick seems much simpler.

    Meanwhile, off the top of my head, you can manage some good tissue necrosis by overusing Afrin and the like, can off your kidneys and stomach lining with aspirin/ibuprofen and their other NSAID kin, and run into electrolyte imbalances from hell after hitting the laxatives.

    Then again, people who aren’t going to read and follow the package directions are probably dangers to themselves when given anything– medications, tools, cars, glue, etc.

  228. Dan says:

    Mark’s trollin’?

    And watering his astroturf?

    On a Friday night?

    I think I’ll go be sad somewhere after I’m done laughing at McCain’s angry face.

  229. motionview says:

    Your statement

    “a legislative panel investigating vice-presidential Sarah Palin has issued a report finding the governor unlawfully abused her authority by firing the state’s public safety commissioner”

    is incorrect. The panel found, quoting directly from their report

    “Governor Palin’s firing of Commissioner Monegan was a proper and lawful exercise of her constitutional and statutory authority to hire and fire executive branch department heads”

    t’s hrd t b rlty-bsd whn y chs t lv n n ch chmbr.

  230. Talia says:

    I’m a bit torn. I loathe her, but I almost can’t help feeling a bit like the media is out to get her. Situations are almost always vastly more complicated than the media makes them out to be. (saying this as a registered democrat and hippie liberal btw).

    I am curious about the real truth beneath all of this. Which is something we are never likely to know.

Leave a Reply