Australian family caged, detained, starved and deported by US customs

arkizzle

“Muslims are a known threat”

NO. NO. NO.

Muslims are not. “Islamists” (as much as I hate the word) are not the same as Muslims. Are Christian fundamentalists representative of Christianity, or America?

Islam has a far higher percentage of moderates who are appalled by the violence done in their name than terrorists or sympathizers.

“They also frequently..”

You do realise that the people you see on TV aren’t all the muslims, right? Not even a percent of a percent of all the Muslims in the world.

“Islamic terrorism is eternal in nature because it’s based on a divine commandment to wage war against infidels for as long as they exist.”

Have you evet read the Bible? No, really. It says almost exactly those things, even suggests it in a Commandment. Do you imagine all the Christians in the world go by these words?
As I understand it, the Koran is more moderate than either of the Bibles.

arkizzle

“People like you are the problem, not these guys.” ~PaulT

“Terrorists aren’t the problem, but people who talk about them are? Yeah, that makes sense.” ~Some1

Do you see what you just did here Some1? You just took “these guys” and called them terrorists.

You are the problem.

Takuan

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=S9Xxh786-6g

arkizzle

“Since these guys don’t appear to be Muslims”

How do you know that?

jjasper

You want ‘eternal terrorism’? How about unrestrained capitalism? Take a look at what it’s done to South America. How about we f*ck around with some oil company executives every time they travel? And then we can chortle as other nations jail tobacco execs or biotech CEOs.

Long after Islam and Christianity are footnotes, people are still going to be slitting throats because of greedy corporations.

mdh

some1 is clearly just another well read troll. Well read because he’s clearly read a lot. Troll because he loves the sound of his own voice AND ignores any parts of what he read that disagreed with his preconcieved notions of what he knows to be true.

I got all the way to: “Muslims commit nearly all terrorism in the world”… and gave up.

Is terrorism something that uses fear in innocent civillians as a lever to a change in political action?

OR IS TERRORISM ANYTING THAT SCARES YOU?

Because your (Some1′s) worldview seems a bit insular, and you sound absolutely terrified of shadows and spooks that you’ve been told tales of.

mdh

Some1 – Dick Cheney called. He wants his line and sinker back.

Superfluous Moniker

Ah crap, I was gonna post defending Some1′s post as sarcasm, and then I saw #47.

On that note…

I’m not equating them, they’re equating themselves.

Pls g d n fr.

Anonymous

This is horrible and I am sad and shamed to hear it.

Cory: Something that always bugs me about these type of posts is that the blogger almost never gives a means to the reader to make a difference. If you could put some kind of contact information such as a phone number or email for US Customs or Border Patrol then it would help us a lot. Then we could voice ourselves where it might matter instead of just sitting here complaining to each other.

Teresa Nielsen Hayden / Community Manager

Modus Operandi, you rock, esp. 113. And 118. And the Toblerone. And 174.

Takuan, Santa said no ponies. Sorry. He’s doing something else with them, I don’t know what. Besides, Mark’s cleared all the old straw out of the Boing Boing livestock barn and is building something weird in there.

What Happened to the Australians:

It turns out that the NYTimes link posted by Willie McBride clear back at comment #8 has the answer to most of the objections people have raised to this story:

Each year, thousands of would-be visitors from 27 so-called visa waiver countries are turned away when they present their passports, said Angelica De Cima, a spokeswoman for Customs and Border Protection, who said she could not discuss any individual case. In the last seven months, 3,300 people have been rejected and more than 8 million admitted, she said.
Though citizens of those nations do not need visas to enter the United States for as long as 90 days, their admission is up to the discretion of border agents. There are more than 60 grounds for finding someone inadmissible, including a hunch that the person plans to work or immigrate, or evidence of an overstay, however brief, on an earlier visit.

While those turned away are generally sent home on the next flight, â€œthere are occasional circumstances which require further detention to review their cases,â€ Ms. De Cima said. And because such â€œarriving aliensâ€ are not considered to be in the United States at all, even if they are in custody, they have none of the legal rights that even illegal immigrants can claim.

Government officials have acknowledged that intensified security since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks has sometimes led to the heavy-handed treatment of foreigners caught in a bureaucratic tangle or paperwork errors. But despite encouraging officers to resolve such cases quickly, excesses continue to come to light.

You should read the whole story. It’s interesting. Willie McBride’s description is quite accurate: “Last year an Italian citizen was literally disappeared by the Custom and Borders Patrol officials. He managed to get out only because his fiancÃ©e’s well-connected family managed to activate a U.S. Senator and the New York Times.”

Ms. Cooper said that at the airport, when she begged to know what was happening to Mr. Salerno, an agent told her, â€œYou know, he should try spending a little more time in his own country.â€

Note that that non-issue has nothing to do with security, and is completely outside the agency’s bailiwick. What you’ve got there is an agent abusing the excessive power granted him.

Another agent eventually told her to go home because Mr. Salerno was being detained as an asylum-seeker.
â€œThe border patrol officer said to my face that Domenico said he would be killed if he went back to Italy,â€ she recalled, voicing incredulity that, in his halting English, he could express such a thought. â€œAlso, who on earth would ever seek asylum from Italy?â€

Twelve hours later, when Mr. Salerno was granted a five-minute phone call, he called Ms. Cooper and denied saying anything of the kind. Instead, he said, the asylum story seemed to be retaliation for his insisting on speaking to his embassy.

That’s also abuse of power.

After being turned over to Immigration and Customs Enforcement, he was taken to the Pamunkey Regional Jail in Hanover, Va., where he ended up in a barracks with 75 other men, including asylum-seekers who told him they had been waiting a year.

This isn’t a function of increased security. What changed after 9/11 was that the agents and other officials at airports were given almost unlimited power, lax supervision, and few guidelines. The resulting abuses of power have been completely predictable. In the case of the Italian guy, the agents miscalculated what kind of connections he had, and disappeared him without charges, counsel, or a phone call.

It’s obvious from the story that plenty of travellers who didn’t have connections to the U.S. Senate, the New York Times, and the FFV have been tossed into the Pamunkey facility to rot. All it takes is an agent claiming to have “a hunch” that the traveller intends to stay. That’s giving the agents a license to exercise their whims and prejudices without fear of being called to account for it.

Apparently that’s what happened to the Australians: an agent decided on zero evidence that they meant to stay in the U.S., and that gave him the right to have them held without recourse, food, an explanation, or a refund on their tickets.

Needless to say, these measures don’t make us safer. A system that’s having innocent travellers tossed into anonymous prisons for an indefinite period simply because an agent took a dislike to them is not one that’s focusing on real dangers, and effective counters to same. Meanwhile, because we mistreat other countries’ nationals, other countries are taking revenge on U.S. tourists.

Considered Opinion @94, there’s your answer to “A small practical standpoint, the US Customs people couldn’t legally do this unless this family somehow failed to produce valid travel identification.” No amount of valid ID is sufficient if an agent decides to exercise a hunch.

Blue @16, I’ll probably go to my grave wondering what George had on Tony Blair.

Gracey @31, you’re wrong throughout. You should have had a look at that piece in the New York Times, instead of being in such a hurry to exculpate the government agents.

Anonymous @40, look up Obama’s record during the brief time he’s been in office. It’s remarkable how fast he’s dismantling the mechanisms of oppression. We’ll have a lot of cleanup to do, but it’s an amazing sign that there’s still hope.

Arkizzle, good arguments on behalf of Islam, but you Gracey woof you on the Ten Commandments. There are several versions of them, and considerable disagreement about their interpretation. There’s also a version of them in the Koran, not that you’d ever hear about that from Gracey — that man is a sower of hatred and bad citations.

Noen @66, I agree that Jihad Watch is a hateful and unreliable source, but you should quote from their main articles, not their commenters.

Iaminnocent @99, you took me by surprise, and nearly made me choke. Good going.

Seabar @106, please distinguish between “there must be more to this story” and “I don’t want to believe it.”

Jacob Ewing @107 didn’t get nearly as much egoboo as that comment deserved.

Alessandro @117, good story. I wish you had pressed charges. The police have to be sick and tired of getting dragged in to back up the TSA’s pointless self-aggrandizement.

Pink @131, 147, 152, 159, how many times does this make that you’ve complained about disemvowelling? Get over it. This is a different forum, and we’re not letting the dogs loose. I don’t know about you, but I have no desire to drown in an ocean of “I’m so bored,” “It must have been the victim’s fault,” “My commercial link, let me show it to you,” “all glory, laud, and honor to Wal-Mart,” and other dysfunctional comments.

Patrick Dodds @140, the answer is that the disemvowelled passage was taking a cheap shot at Cory, whereas MinT was merely being obscene.

Takuan @154:

you know Antinous, I think we need to establish a private Chamber of Horrors and Postings Sewer. Somewhere where the filtered crap can be kept apart and shown on occasion to those that need convincing that toxic bile really does exist.

I can see it now. There’s the classic “Why don’t you fucking assholes release more of my anonymous comments?”, and the page-long unpunctuated and unparagraphed screeds about conspiracy theories so obscure that even I have never heard of them, and the wodges of irrelevant text by that guy who roams the net, posting accounts of how his ex-wife and his former co-worker tried to poison him when he was a blood donor, and the amazingly vile anonymous comments that never made it out of the moderation queue for the story about the pregnant man (the only time I’ve shut down comments in a thread purely to spare myself and Antinous from having to see them), and … cripes, are you sure we’d want to toss them all in together? They might breed.

Error 404 @187, great reply.

Stan from Brooklyn @194:

I don’t understand this devowelling “punishment”. All it does is pique my curiosity to wonder what someone said. Then my eyes are crossed from trying to read it.

Buckle down and learn to read it. Better yet, learn why it wasn’t worth reading in the first place.

Why don’t you just establish clear rules of what people can and can’t say. If they violate those rules, then don’t post it.

We do have rules. You should have a look. Not everyone follows them; thus disemvowelling.

P.S. While it’s obviously true that all muslims are not terrorists, it’s hard to find a terrorist or terrorist group with worldwide reach in the past 20 years that is not muslim. Please correct me if I’m wrong…

I’m going to have to look up some of these spellings before I hit “post”, but just for starters: Sendero Luminoso, Posse Comitatus, Aum Shinrikyo, Tupac Amaru, Euskadi Ta Askatasuna, the Tamil Tigers, Babbar Khalsa, Kach and Kahane Chai, and the Ejercito Nacional de Liberacion de Colombia. Your twenty-year limit takes out the Red Brigades (Brigate Rosse) and the Sinn Fein, but not the Orange Volunteers, the Real IRA, or the Continuity IRA.

and George Bush does not count.

He does too! Just not in order.

Anonymous

One day it will be Americans, fugitives even, begging to be allowed across the border to Canada or Mexico, and you know what the customs agents will say:

“Dirty gringos, coming here to steal our jobs and despoil our culture.”

“Sorry sir, but you are on our list of suspected extremists — you supported torture under the Bush administration. Go back.”

Master Gracey

NN sd:
Shrtr Mstr Grcy: Th fct tht thy wr dtnd prvs thr glt.

N, my pnt ws tht n fmly ws sngld t nd dtnd, <>fr rsns w’v nvr bn tld, ths s nt whlsl ttck n trsts frm – prsmbly vry thr pssngr n th flght ntrd th S wtht ncdnt.

RKZZL sd (n rspns t my sttmnt <>“Qstnd, pttd-dwn nd srch thr lggg – tht s nt nrsnbl, nd t s ls nt cmmn. t hppns, bt th rprts wld b n grdlck f t ws mr thn n ccsnl vnt.”):
Nt nrsnbl fr wht? Fr nt bng crmnl? Nt trrrst?
f “Qstnd, pttd-dwn nd srch[d]” ws ll tht hppnd, ths wld nt hv md th nws. Thy wr dtnd nd nrsnbly rtrnd t strl, $6400 t f pckt nd nbl t s th mn’s dyng rltv.

Qstnd – ws qstnd n my lst t f cntry vctn, tht sms rsnbl. (Why r y hr, whr r y gng, tc.)

Pttd-dwn – Ths s cmmn t rslv mnr mtl dtctr sss – frnd hs < hrf="http://bks.ggl.cm/bks?d=1H9rWBb0C&pg=P557&lpg=P557&dq=spnl+rd+hrrng&src=wb&ts=0dY4f9FN7g&sg=vJNq2dWcyf-Hfk9T7d5XkCvkk&hl=n&s=X&=bk_rslt&rsnm=6&ct=rslt#PP556,M1" rl="nfllw">Hrrng Rd s rslt f spnl fsn crrctn t sclss, nd sh sts ff mtl dtctrs, nd thy frqntly pt hr dwn t dtrmn sh hs n mtl <>n hr. Ths s typclly dn n dfrnc t strp srch.

Srchd – my crry n nd chckd lggg ws xmnd n frnt f m, bfr ws llwd t ntr th trmnl (my trp tk m t cntry tht hs S Cstms n th frgn rprt – nthr m nr my bggg cld gt n th pln wtht pssng thrgh cstms. Hv y nvr sn bggg srchd? Nvr gttn lttl slp f ppr frm TS ndctng thy srchd yr lggg? Ys, ths t s cmmn.

Dtnd – ys, bt thy wr t f th cntry wthn 24 hrs, nt lft t lngr n lgl lmb fr dys n nd. sspct th flght thy wr n ws th nxt vlbl flght.

t $6,400 – y r <>ssmng thy ddn’t nd th tckts t rtrn t , nd f thy ddn’t s thm fr th rtrn flght y r <>ssmng thy r nn-rfndbl.

Ddn’t s dyng rltv – nfrtnt, t b sr, <>bt ntl w knw why thy wr dtnd, qstnd, srchd, nd rtrnd t , t mks n dffrnc why thy cm r wht thy ddn’t gt chnc t d.

Y dn’t hv t b crmnl r trrrst t b qstnd, srchd, dtnd, nd rtrnd frm th brdr – y smply hv t fl t cmply wth r vs rqrmnts fr ntry nt th S.

Th nly nfrmtn cn fnd n ths fmly r rpts f th rgnl stry Cry lnkd t – cn fnd n thr rgnl rprtng n ths, ds nyn hv lnk t bttr nfrmtn n ths ss?

arkizzle

mmm yappy chocolate donuts :)

Modusoperandi

Teresa Nielsen Hayden “Modus Operandi, you rock”
I do rock. Hence the mullet.

“…about conspiracy theories so obscure that even I have never heard of them…”
You give yourself too little credit. Did you know that Xylophonists and a shadowy cadre of international plumbers were behind 9/11?

arkizzle

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Yap_Stone_Money.jpg

http://www.unc.edu/depts/econ/byrns_web/Economicae/Essays/ART/yap_money.jpg

mmmm.

Patrick Austin

@#45: The point here is that Cory didn’t need to use inflammatory language in this situation. The situation speaks for itself.

Customs took them to a hotel in a van designed to transport prisoners, fed them some biscuits and water, and shipped them home. It’s a crazy story, but they weren’t treated like animals…just like criminals, which is bad enough.

When you use language like “starved” and “caged”, it detracts from the story because all of a sudden everyone is nitpicking and bitching about the choice of words rather than the awful facts.

Summer

Zopher, that’ll teach you to go and try having a life outside of the internet.

some1

TM HL:
SM1, y’ll lrn t tn dwn tht srt f tttd ftr whl – gv t mnth r tw.
Why? Wht’s gng t hppn n tw mnths?

Wht y’v dscrbd s Rcl Prflng – nd ts wrng.
gn, snc whn hs slm bn rc? thr wy, rcl prflng sn’t nhrntly wrng thr. Spps thr ws rc f bl-sknnd ppl nd smthng lk 70% f thm wr glty f trrrsm. Why wld t b wrng t b xtr cts whn dlng wth thm, nd ssmng tht thy r mr lkly t b trrrsts thn nyn ls? ‘d lk srs nswr t ths nd nt n ppl t mtn r sm ngry lbrl knjrk rctn.

RKZZL:
N. N. N. Mslms r nt. “slmsts” (s mch s ht th wrd) r nt th sm s Mslms. r Chrstn fndmntlsts rprsnttv f Chrstnty, r mrc?
Thr’s n dffrnc btwn Mslms nd “slmsts,” thy’r th sm thng (nd vn mny Mslms hv drctly tld m ths by syng tht thr s n mdrt slm, jst slm). Thr s, hwvr, dffrnc btwn slm nd Chrstnty, whch mns tht slmc fndmntlst != Chrstn fndmntlst. Th lttr d nt rprsnt mnstrm Chrstnty, whrs th frmr d rprsnt mnstrm slm. Thngs lk hnr kllngs, jhd, fscsm, rrtnl ngr-ndcd vlnc nd n nblty t pcflly c-xst wth nfdls r ll prt f mnstrm slm.

slm hs fr hghr prcntg f mdrts wh r pplld by th vlnc dn n thr nm thn trrrsts r sympthzrs.
nd whr r ths ppl, xctly? Thr slnc s <>dfnng whnvr th slmc trcty f th Dy ccrs, yt Stnc Vrss, th Mhmmd Crtns, th Pp’s spch nd prtn Cst Ld prmptd rts, dmnstrtns, bmbngs, ssssntns nd gnrl myhm ll vr th wrld. hv tlkd t lt f Mslms, bt hv nvr ncntrd mdrt n. Whn thy’r cnfrntd wth sm trcty dn n slm’s nm, thy lwys mk xcss r try t clm t ddn’t <>rlly hppn, sm shdwy ntrntnl cnsprcy (Znsts, llmnt, C, Fx Nws, tk yr pck) jst md t lk tht wy. Thy ls frqntly dfnd th pprssn f wmn by syng tht t’s fr thr wn gd, nd rnt bt th Wst bng stnc dn f dcdnc nd crrptn. spps thy ppr mdrt f y thrw thm sftbll qstns lk “y cndmn trrrsm, rght?”

Y d rls tht th ppl y s n TV rn’t ll th mslms, rght? Nt vn prcnt f prcnt f ll th Mslms n th wrld.
nd d y rlz tht TV nws r nt th nly src f nfrmtn n xstnc? f ll y knw bt th sbjct cms frm CNN, y dn’t knw vn n prcnt f prcnt f th tr xtnt f slmfscsm.

Hv y vt rd th Bbl? N, rlly. t sys lmst xctly ths thngs, vn sggsts t n Cmmndmnt. D y mgn ll th Chrstns n th wrld g by ths wrds?
Thy dn’t, bt tht dsn’t mn th sm hlds tr fr Mslms. Y r mkng th clssc rrr f thnkng tht Chrstnty nd slm nd th Qrn nd th Bbl r cmpltly ntrchngbl. Bt thy’r nt. Thy’r vry dffrnt rlgns bsd n vry dffrnt rlgs txts nd vry dffrnt mrl, thcl nd phlsphcl prncpls.

s ndrstnd t, th Krn s mr mdrt thn thr f th Bbls.
Ys, tht’s wht ll th mtr ntrnt Thlgns thnk.

D y s wht y jst dd hr Sm1? Y jst tk “ths gys” nd clld thm trrrsts.
N, ddn’t. ‘v lrdy sttd t lst twc tht dn’t blv thm t b trrrsts. ssmd y wr rfrrng t trrrsts nd nt th fmly.

Hw d y knw tht?
dn’t s nythng tht wld sggst tht thy’r Mslms. D y?

MDH:
sm1 s clrly jst nthr wll rd trll.
nd y’v lrdy lst by bng frcd t cll m trll. Bt ‘ll hmr y nywy.

Trll bcs h lvs th snd f hs wn vc ND gnrs ny prts f wht h rd tht dsgrd wth hs prcncvd ntns f wht h knws t b tr.
n wht bss d y cll my vws prcncvd?

Bcs yr (Sm1′s) wrldvw sms bt nslr, nd y snd bsltly trrfd f shdws nd spks tht y’v bn tld tls f.
Tld tls f? Y mn ll th slmc trrrsm n th wrld dsn’t ctlly xst? Tll m mr.

Sm1 – Dck Chny clld. H wnts hs ln nd snkr bck.
‘m nt mrcn nd nthr knw nr cr bt Dck Chny’s pnns.

SPRFLS MNKR:
Pls g d n fr.
Hy, wsm rgmnt br.

Summer

Dammit.

Xopher-with-an X, not a Z.

When my fat-finger-itis begins to affect my typing to that degree (and not get noticed before I hit Post), it means it’s time for beddie-bye. Now if someone will kindly hit me over the head with a sledgehammer so I can actually *fall asleep*, I’ll bid you all good night…

Master Gracey

ARKIZZLE responded to another poster that said “Islamic terrorism is eternal in nature because it’s based on a divine commandment to wage war against infidels for as long as they exist.”:

Have you evet read the Bible? No, really. It says almost exactly those things, even suggests it in a Commandment.

Which one? There’s only ten (for those not interested in reading the whole Wikipedia Entry):

ONE: ‘You shall have no other gods before Me.’

TWO: ‘You shall not make for yourself a carved image–any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.’

THREE: ‘You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.’

FOUR: ‘Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.’

FIVE: ‘Honor your father and your mother.’

SIX: ‘You shall not murder.’

SEVEN: ‘You shall not commit adultery.’

EIGHT: ‘You shall not steal.’

NINE: ‘You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.’

TEN: ‘You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.’

A superficial reading of the list leads me to believe Commandment #6 actually is counter to your assertion. I don’t see it, please help me…

arkizzle

Gee, thanks for spelling out the bleedin’ obvious with your Questioned, Patted-Down and Searched paragraphs.

You’ll note the issue I had with your original point is that this was not all that happened, not that these standard measures happened (whether or not I like them at all).

“Out $6,400 you are assuming they didn’t need the tickets to return to AU, and if they didn’t use them for the return flight you are assuming they are non-refundable.”

No, I am assuming they probably wouldn’t have chosen to spend $6400 on a one day trip to America that didn’t achieve the one reason they went.

And If you know an airline company that will refund used tickets, I’ll be amazed.

Takuan

*THUNK!*

Modusoperandi

jackie31337 “I know you meant that as a joke, and I know it’s the mama-bear instinct talking here, but I just can’t find the humor in it.”
The bit about my imaginary children? Imaginary children?
I can’t apologize. I just can’t. My imaginary children are hellions. The stress has driven my imaginary wife bald. I’m starting to wish that we’d used imaginary contraception.
I can, however, offer you a piece of Toblerone. I know that it’s a poor substitute, but on the positive side, it’s Toblerone.

noen

Some1 links to Jhad Watch and I thought I’d share a few of the comments from that delightful site.

“I can only imagine how “offended” Muslims would be if I took to the streets calling for them to be inserted into an oven.”

“Are Mahounds committing spiritual suicide by indulging in grizzly, depraved images of murder and mayhem?…Actually no, Islam is already spiritual suicide, which makes the words’ depravity’ and ‘purity’ interchangeable.”

“Like the Nazis had their Judenrat, so the muslims will have their self appointed Capos”

“I never use Wikidpedia, but someone here posted it in reference to something…I went there and found that variation of Mohammads name…I liked it because it easily converts into Ma-hound, or My-dog.”

“The silence of our news media in the face of Islamic genocide is deafening. I feel like I have been hurled back through time and I am now living in Nazi Germany.”

“Until the war started by Mohammed over 1400 years ago is won by the West, enemies such as in this story will continue to threaten and kill us.”

“Why are these people allowed to wear their terrorist getups? Why are they allowed to spout hate and incite people to hate? This HAS to be against the law somewhere doesn’t it?”

“Time for martial law! Given the calls for genocide, the lies, and the hate being propogated, these demonstrations should be stopped before they can even get started.”

Lovely bunch of friends you have there some1.

Takuan

no one is surprised I hope? Cutting the head off the snake doesn’t get rid of the venom left in the fangs. You have to be careful.

I’m wondering; the folks with the big, old money were in tacit favor of a flow of cheap immigrant labor to pick their crops and build their mansions.
The Cheney Depression is going to guarantee a domestic supply of cheap labor… ask anyone trying to get a student loan these days. Executive orders not withstanding, just what character IS going to be set at American borders in the years to come?

You know, if they play this right they should be able to set the new underclass against the “filthy immigrant hordes” and keep the heat off themselves.
Odd, I have this strange sensation of deja vu..

arkizzle

Well, if you read ‘You shall have no other gods before Me’ beyond people who are already Christian, what does that suggest?

EX 32 27 (regarding people worshipping a golden calf)
“Then he said to them, “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’ ” 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29 Then Moses said, “You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day.
…
35 And the LORD struck the people with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made.”

This seems counter to Commandment 6 too, but that was sort of my point. There is no point reading the book and deciding that is how people generally behave, because it isn’t.

Master Gracey

ARKIZZLE – I said questioned, searched and patted down were reasonable things to occur on the border – my position only concerned itself with those three, enumerated items – nothing more. You took that statement on limited topic and applied to all that happened to the family, I did not.

Having never been deported, I don’t know if the family had to turn in their return tickets, or if the kept them. I don’t know who paid for their return flight. If your point is correct, they are actually out $12,800 (assuming their round-trip ticket cost twice as much as their return tickets).

If they kept their Feb. 6th return tickets and the airline flew them back on the US Gov’t dime (which certainly could have happened, how do destitute travelers that are turned away from the border get sent home?) , they they are not used tickets, and they can ask for a refund, I suspect.

arkizzle

Some1

Your responses to me @ 59 are so appallingly beyond the truth I can only imagine you don’t really believe those things and are arguing for the sake of the argument itself.

If you actually believe the things you have said at 59, I’m out, because you are an ignorant, racist, bigotted prick.

*D’V at will, I’m appalled.*

some1

NN:
Sm1 lnks t Jhd Wtch nd thght ‘d shr fw f th cmmnts frm tht dlghtfl st.
G rght hd. s y sy, thy r <>rdr cmmnts, nd s th dsclmr sys: “Th Cmmnts sctn s prvdd n th ntrsts f fr spch nly. t s mstly nmdrtd, bt cmmnts tht r ff-tpc, ffnsv, slndrs, r thrws nnyng stnd chnc f bng dltd. Th fct tht ny cmmnt rmns n th st N N WY cnsttts n ndrsmnt by Jhd Wtch r Dhmm Wtch, r by Rbrt Spncr r ny thr Jhd Wtch r Dhmm Wtch wrtr, f ny vw xprssd, fct llgd, r lnk prvdd n tht cmmnt.”

Y r, f crs, drwng ttntn t th cmmnts bcs y cn’t rft th cntnts f th pst tslf. rd hrrng. nd gng by yr lgc, sn’t Bng Bng n fct dvctng my vws jst bcs thy’r pstd hr?

Lvly bnch f frnds y hv thr sm1.
Thy’r my frnds bcs thy pst cmmnts n st vst? gss tht mks y nd m BFF.

noen

Master Gracey:

“No, my point was that one family was singled out and detaind, for reasons we’ve never been told, this is not a wholesale attack on tourists from AU – presumably every other passenger on the flight entered the US without incident.”

Yes, and that’s just fine with you. Which was my point i.e. you are an obedient slave. When you are told not to question you comply.

arkizzle

Teresa

Woofed me eh? I thought my post @68 spelled out the dichotomy of Book vs Behaviour pretty well.. my mistake :)

some1

RKZZL:
Yr rspnss t m @ 59 r s ppllngly bynd th trth cn nly mgn y dn’t rlly blv ths thngs nd r rgng fr th sk f th rgmnt tslf. f y ctlly blv th thngs y hv sd t 59, ‘m t, bcs y r n gnrnt, rcst, bgttd prck.
Hy, grt rgmnt br.

stll dn’t ndrstnd why ppl nsst n trnng ths nt rc ss nd thn cll <>m rcst. “Bgtd” s nthr n f ths lbrl bzz wrds tht dsn’t ctlly mn nythng, r t lst dsn’t nymr.

arkizzle

“I don’t know who paid for their return flight.”

The deportee, always. If they can’t pay, it’s billed to their consulate, which is in turn billed to the deportee.

Master Gracey

TAKUAN – said:

You know, if they play this right they should be able to set the new underclass against the “filthy immigrant hordes” and keep the heat off themselves.

You’re too late, Senator Chuck Grassley, R. Iowa, has started the ball rolling.

Takuan

heh!, yer fooling no one, someone, I myself see little point in giving you or any other bigot a soapboax.

Master Gracey

TAKUAN – to avoid Spam filter, I continue:

The Sentaor’s letter to MS may have a great cost to his own state – the next day MS announced the delay of a $500M data center they were planning for Iowa.

arkizzle

Some1, it’s not an argument.

I am genuinely appalled that you think the things you wrote, and am done arguing with you.

TheChickenAndTheRice

Cry,

dplr ths knd f trtmnt s mch s ny mrlly rspnsbl prsn. ls dplr snstnl prpgnd. Syng fmly ws “cgd” nd “strvd” s nccrt nd rrspnsbl. vn wrs, t dvrts ttntn frm th fcts f ths stry. rlz y dn’t s yrslf s nws tlt, bt y shld rmmbr tht lt f ppl trn t BngBng fr crrnt vnts.

Master Gracey

NN – nd rsn t gnrt rg, wn’t gt ngry t f gnrnc. Tll m why thy wr dtnd, nd thn th rspns s bvs – kp t frm m, nd n nfrmd rspns s mpssbl, nd th mtv (n thr sd f ths xchng) s sspct.

Why ws th fmly dtnd nd snt bck t ? Th lck f dfntv nswr s th nly thng y cn rsnbl b ngry bt, nd ftr y gt tht dfntv nswr, thn y cn rct t thr trtmnt n lght f tht ddtnl nfrmtn.

some1

TKN:
hh!, yr flng n n, smn, myslf s lttl pnt n gvng y r ny thr bgt spbx.
‘m nt tryng t “fl” nyn (wht r y tlkng bt?), ‘m jst pntng t tht f JW rdr cmmnts r t b tkn s th st’s ffcl plcy, thn th sm mst ncssrly hld tr fr Bng Bng. By yr lst cmmnt, d y mn tht nyn dsgntd s “bgt” (whch dsn’t mn nythng) shld nt b llwd t spk?

RKZZL:
Sm1, t’s nt n rgmnt. m gnnly pplld tht y thnk th thngs y wrt, nd m dn rgng wth y.
nd tht’s th rgmnt y’r brngng t th tbl. Y’r “pplld,” nd tht’s t. Ths slly hppns wth ppl wh rly n mtns rthr thn lgc.

Takuan

bye!

teapot7

Antinous at #134 writes:

> Man On Pink Corner,
>
> Feel free to host whatever racist and bully-loving > comments you want on your own blog.

WTF? Since when being sick of disemvowelment equate to a love of racism and bullying? Did I miss the memo?

some1

r y gng smwhr? Wll, by by thn.

noen

Arkizzle – the some1 troll can get much worse. Jihad Watch also supports Geert Wilders and his fascist PVV party. Geert is sort of like the Netherlands version of Ron Paul. With the same personality cult overtones. Like Ron, Geert is careful what he says in public but behind the scenes it’s a different story. Just as Ron Paul and Sarah Palin have ties to American white supremacists, Geert Wilders also has links to fascist rightwing groups like Front National and Vlaams Belang.

Now… where did I put my Troll Begone?

Takuan

I wonder what international law and treaty between Australia and the USA say about obligations to each other’s citizens? With Bush gone, the Australian government doesn’t have to be quite so lick-spittle, maybe even express some official displeasure? I guess Australian fears about immigration can easily be played to at home , along with the racism, but do they still NEED to?

Anonymous

Flying While Muslimâ„¢ – it’s the new Driving While Blackâ„¢.

Johnny One Spur

Interesting that the U.S. consulate in Australia had this comment: “We reserve the right to refuse entry to visitors to the United States.” Wouldn’t it have been that very consulate that authorized their visas? Presumably they don’t just hand them out willy-nilly; they must do some kind of vetting/investigation.

It would piss me off if I did that work and then some CBP guys thousands of miles away second-guess you for whatever reason…and then to top it off, you have to defend their actions to an angry Australian press!

Takuan

you gotta love the pure cynicism of it all; the multinationals wearing patriotic flag masks talk about “globalization” (code for dropping everyone’s wages to third world levels). Then they outsource anyway, while tacitly encouraging illegal immigration with illegal hires while bribing politicians to condemn it publicly (within limits) and now they manipulate a new generation of young people with blighted futures into a war with other poor people from elsewhere.

What is the one, continuous thing the multinationals get through this tangled web:

cheap labor. No matter what.

some1

NN:
rkzzl – th sm1 trll cn gt mch wrs.
Ys, srly mst b trll fr cmmttng th nfrgvbl sn f syng smthng y dn’t hppn t gr wth. Y r, ftr ll, th cntr f th nvrs.

Jhd Wtch ls spprts Grt Wldrs nd hs fscst PVV prty. Grt s srt f lk th Nthrlnds vrsn f Rn Pl. Wth th sm prsnlty clt vrtns. Lk Rn, Grt s crfl wht h sys n pblc bt bhnd th scns t’s dffrnt stry. Jst s Rn Pl nd Srh Pln hv ts t mrcn wht sprmcsts, Grt Wldrs ls hs lnks t fscst rghtwng grps lk Frnt Ntnl nd Vlms Blng.
JW dsn’t spprt jst Grt Wldrs, bt frdm f spch (whch s why thr cmmnts sctn s lrgly nmdrtd). H s bng prsctd fr syng thngs th gvrnmnt dsn’t lk.

“Fscst rghtwng grp” snds lk mpty mtnl rhtrc.

Okathleen

Of course that sort of thing would never happen here in Blighty… we let anybody in…

optuser

Modusoperandi:

Poor treatment of Canadians has already happened:

http://www.democracynow.org/2003/10/8/canadian_citizen_deported_to_syria_by

Also, there was a case of a female Canadian citizen who was intercepted at Detroit on an airline connection back to Canada who was detained by US Customs, passport seized (accused of being forged), and put back on a plane to the country of origin. I can’t find the article but someone else can probably dig it up.

It may be just a coincidence, or finally some Canadian government types are putting their foot down, but private aircraft coming from the US have had many restrictions put on them that did not happen pre-2002. Also, US citizens with *any* criminal record are being turned away at the Canadian boarder. Unwitting tourists on tour buses have been kicked off and forced to cab back across the bridge to the US.

I wholeheartedly approve of the Australian government retaliating for the above event. I would suggest canvassing LAX for a large tour group boarding a US carrier’s flight (not Qantas) to Australia. Notify the Australian customs people to meet such a flight, mass detainment, search, and return on the next flight back to LAX. When they ask why they are being deported, tell them they are being treated the same way US customs treats Australian citizens, and that they should complain to their federal government.

Or would that be mean and excessive?

arkizzle

Noen, I see that.. It’s just so much more ugly when it’s staring you in the face, seemingly able to spell correctly and string sentences together in a coherent manner.

noen

Takuan
“and now they manipulate a new generation of young people with blighted futures into a war with other poor people from elsewhere.”

But Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.

some1

RKZZL:
Nn, s tht.. t’s jst s mch mr gly whn t’s strng y n th fc, smngly bl t spll crrctly nd strng sntncs tgthr n chrnt mnnr.
Whr cld lrn sch sphstctd dbtng sklls?

help i cant comfirm my username themelonbread

@#18 imipak: I remember reading in some book, in some passage about how profiling won’t help you avoid dangerous people, that you’re most likely to find a psychopath among security guards out of every profession out there.

Teller

Apologizing in advance if this point has been made and, considering the number of comments what point hasn’t, but the Customs agents at LAX, men and women, are about as diverse racially as TSA people, which is quite diverse. I say this because the arc of many comments has been this white-America-Customs-agents-vs-brown-people argument. That family, the Rabbis, look just like many of the agents who fucked with them.

jackie31337

Modusoperandi @118
Antinous “When someone detains your children and doesn’t feed them, you won’t see it quite the same way.”
I’d only get mad if they gave me my kids back. “They’re the state’s problem now.” I would say to the fictional guards about my imaginary kids, “You deal with ‘em.”

I know you meant that as a joke, and I know it’s the mama-bear instinct talking here, but I just can’t find the humor in it. I’ve been hassled by security in the past. I can deal with it when it’s just me, but bringing my daughter into it is just too much. One of the scenarios that outright terrifies me is the possibility of US officials taking my daughter away from me.

I’m a US citizen. My daughter is a dual citizen. I’ve lived outside of the US for 10 years now, and I come back once or twice a year to visit my family. My most recent visit was around Christmas. Every flight we took on this trip was a major security hassle, involving SSSS boarding passes and air marshals (what does a 5-year-old do to desrve a SSSS boarding pass?). To their credit, all the TSA agents I encountered were very friendly and professional, but knowing that there was an armed man on my flight with orders to shoot me IN FRONT OF MY CHILD if necessary really put me over the edge.

Despite the crap I went through with security on this trip, I came home profoundly homesick and seriously considering moving back. Then I read stories like this one.

arkizzle

“But Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.”

I have some information that may interest you.. :)

TheChickenAndTheRice

I like that idea a lot. Replace the comment with a hyperlink — something like Click to view comment removed from thread due to TOS violation. That would demote the comment while disrupting the thread less than disemvowellment would. You can put an age/content warning on an intermediate page if you like.

I second that!

mags

Cory, twice I’ve tried to post about my own experience in Canada but somehow, perhaps because I’m an American who was treated badly by Canada, my comment doesn’t seem to be considered of importance. Let me repeat: I’m an American, blonde, a woman, I live in Vermont, 2 hours south of Montreal. For years, I’ve flown into and out of Montreal. 2 years ago, I was returning to Montreal on a flight from the UK. I had my car in the parking garate at the airport and thought it would be easy to get off the plane, go quickly through customs and drive home. it was late afternoon when I arrived. I didn’t leave that airport until early the next morning, after 15 hours of being held in a waiting area in “secondary inspection” and given absolutely no information about why i was being held, except, just wait. I was offered during that time water to drink, and when I asked if I could have some food, I was told that it would be “soon”. Finally, early the next morning, I discovered that they had found I had a DUI from 14 years earlier which finally caught up with me. One DUI in my entire life. What took them so many hours to finally release me, I will never know. Finally, I was allowed an in transit visa to pick up my car and drive home to Vermont, and told that I must drop off documents at the Canadian immigration at the border. I was also told in no uncertain terms not to try to enter Canada again, as I would be jailed. I have since that time been “rehabilitated”, meaning I showed the govt. I had only one conviction in my life and had been an “upstanding and moral citizen” since then. That took me a year of waiting to get, and all the while I had to fly to JFK or Boston rather than through the airport 2 hours from my doorstep in Vermont.

That said, am I angry? Of course, at the time, I was livid. But, in retrospect, I have calmed down. I realize they were doing their job. Their job is not to be mister nice guy. Canada (nor the USA) won’t treat me badly. Missing food for 15 hours (when it was night anyway) was no biggie. I was given water. The immigration officers were not rude, they just showed no emotion and the only answer I was given was, “sorry, we can’t give you any information, just wait”. I knew I had done nothing wrong and had sort of figured out that my old DUI had come up on their radar screen.

My point is, everyone says, these people were treated badly. Who knows? we will never know. They may know. Perhaps they had tried to enter the USA once before. Perhaps one member of the family had a past criminal record (maybe a DUI?). Perhaps a family member in the USA had come in illegaly, and they had some knowledge none of us will ever have. Perhaps it was nothing, just a mistake! But, that’s the law. This is the USA, and that’s their right. Its not like you get on that plane not knowing that you could possibly be refused entry. The law is the same in Canada. I was refused entry into Canada. I chose to fly into Canadian airspace and I violated their law.

Now, please, stop all the bashing of the US immigration service. My husband is born in Iran, but an American citizen now. He is always grilled more closely than me when he returns to the USA, and when he goes to Canada, he gets the same grilling. He just figures its the way things are these days for those from his part of the world, and he puts up with it. My son, who is half Iranian, has the same problem when he travels, even though he was born and raised in California. My son was stopped for secondary questioning in, guess where? ICELAND. I was detained in Canada, two hours from my home.

END OF STORY.

minTphresh

some1, you may believe that your so-called arguements are mind blowingly apt, but to those of us stuck reading them, thy jst tnd t mk y snd lk n gnrnt dck. wlkn’ tlkn’ flccd pns. best of luck with that.

consideredopinion

Others may have made this point, but I haven’t the time to go through the whole thread, so I’ll risk the repetition:

A small practical standpoint, the US Customs people couldn’t legally do this unless this family somehow failed to produce valid travel identification. A return ticket isn’t sufficient. An Australian passport for each member of the family is, since I believe Australia is in the US’s visa waiver program. They wouldn’t need prior ESTA registration either, I think.

One or more of that traveling family would need to have had a documentation problem, or a suspicious travel history. Either way, the Customs people were both jerks, and efficient law enforcers.

Takuan

in time, posts will become currency.

Takuan

here’s a thought: have all destination countries (those with money that don’t openly machine-gun you at the border) got their contingency plans in place for when the Chinese government executes Emergency Plan Alpha; “Relief Valve” (EPARV)? You know, the one where the Party first brings all prisoners to the borders and harbours and then tells the general population that any who want to leave can leave? Provided they go in three days? Count on it. Best way to kill dissent at home and also liquidate a bunch of troublemakers in the confusion. Creates a bit of “shut-up” for all those pesky freedom-talker nations that constantly criticize China. You’ll know when are about to do it when they freeze all money transfers out of China. Maybe under guise of “currency adjustments pursuant to requests from other trading partners”.

jackie31337

mags @184: He just figures its the way things are these days for those from his part of the world, and he puts up with it.

The point I think Cory and a lot of commenters here are trying to make is that just because that’s the way things are these days, it doesn’t mean that’s the way things should be. It doesn’t make it right. I got almost word-for-word the same response from my mom when I told her about our security hassles: “They’re allowed to do that [search your luggage and question you] these days.”

Unfortunately, I don’t have the first idea about how to change this. It makes me so angry that I can’t think of anything to do, other than put up with it.

Superfluous Moniker

bigot
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices ; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

It’s a perfectly cromulent word.

error404

Over and above the brutal treatment of citizens of an ally, which is both self evident and appalling, there is a small matter that caught my eye.

Up thread there was a comment that got disemvowelled about how they were not starved.

The thing about taking anyone into custody, is that you are their CUSTODIAN.

See the clue was in the name.

You have a duty of care to your prisoner/detainee.

You have removed their capacity to feed and fend for themselves and in doing so assumed the responsibility.

It is not for the individual customs officer to decide who eats and who doesn’t, these matters are governed by directives.

SO for a family of 4 to be detained for 24 hours with no food is to starve them, as you have no idea what or when they have eaten.

There seems to be way too much latitude either given or more likely taken by the security personnel at US airports.And far too many in the US seem to give their tacit slyly nodding consent to this.

Hell they were brown and looked kinda Muslimy.

If all it takes is to not look like the racist cartoon in the head of DHS officers then the US is in some deep shengis.

Terrorist organisations count among their numbers many who with a shave hair cut and a brooks bros suit would not look out of place in any international airport.

Tom Hale

Well, there goes my theory that Takuan and Antinous are the same person.

Takuan

remember this?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3366519.stm

mags

n mr cmmnt bt th d thr dtntn ws “rcst”. wrk ftn n Npl, nd fly thr t nd frm Mntrl r JFK, nd ccsnlly n Qtr. m ftn n plns pckd wth ndns nd ppl frm th Prsn Glf. Th mjrty f thm gt n. Whn fly nt Hthrw, ftn s frgnrs wh hv bn skd t wt, bvsly fr scndry qstnng. Sm r sn, sm strn rpn nd blnd. dn’t knw why thy wr nt llwd mmdtly t ntr th K. hv n dbt mny f thm wll wt fr hrs nd hrs, s dd. dn’t s wtrs tkng thr rdrs! My sn, wh, s sttd bv, s hlf rnn, hs bn stppd rptdly fr scndry qstnng. My sn s 17, by th wy. m blnd, nd h lks lk m, nt hs fthr. spnt 15 hrs wtng (nd tryng t slp) n scndry wtng r n Mntrl, s sttd n my bv pst. Ths ppl wr nt trgtd fr thr rc. rg ll f y, bfr y fly nt th S, t rd wht th S Dpt. f mmgrtn sys. Y cn b rfsd th rght f ntry, nd thy dn’t hv t gv y rsn. By th wy, nthr ds th K r Cnd. y ntr ths cntrs t yr wn rsk. t s prvlg, nt “rght”, t b llwd t ntr th K, Cnd, Wstrn rp, strl r Nw Zlnd (r ny f zlln thr cntrs). N n lks t b dtnd fr hrs nd hrs, lthgh ths fmly gt t g t htl, whl (mss blnd mrcn vrmntr) ws md t st n scndry wtng r fr 15 hrs n Cndn rprt. wld hv lvd t hv bd, vn fr n hr.Bt t wsn’t trtr, nd gt hm vntlly. ddn’t strt wrtng nwspprs dmndng jstc. Wh wld lstn t m, nywy? Wht d sy? ws rclly prfld, tht’s why thy dtnd m? sy t ths fmly, GT VR T.

IamInnocent

It may be just a coincidence, or finally some Canadian government types are putting their foot down
Coincidence…
The only foot Harper ever cared about was Bush’s, when simple fisting became insufficient.

Teller

Have to say it’s a much more fascinating comments section when the moderators exercise restraint and all the sharks can get at the chum. Gd wrk!

mags

#185: stll sy, gt vr t. ‘m blnd, my sn s blnd nd hlf rnn. Mny f th ppl s n flghts cmng nt th K wh r dtnd, md t st n bnchs nd prsmbly, tkn ff fr scndry qstnng snr r ltr,r clrly strn rpn, nt mddl strn r sn. Mst f th pssngrs n th r nd nd Qtr flghts rglrly tk n th wy hm t Vrmnt frm my dvlpmnt wrk n Npl r llwd nt th S wth n prblms. rr n s stppd nd qstnd, nd f mr srs sss cm p, thy r flggd, s ws pn ntry nt Cnd. Thy my hv bn “flggd” bfr thy vn ntrd th S, s ppl r rqrd t rprt thr prsnl dtls svrl dys bfr flyng nw. Tht wldn’t ncssrly stp thm frm gttng n th flght, bt t wld hld thm p n th S whl thy rsrchd wht th rsn fr th “flg” ws. Th nly thng ws tld whn rrvd n Mntrl ws, y mst g t scndry nspctn. Whn skd why. ws tld by th mmgrtn ffcr, dn’t knw th rsn. Yr nm ws “flggd”. spnt 15 hrs n tht scndry wtng r. dn’t cll tht trtr, nd fr sr ws nt rclly prfld. Nt hppy cmpr, bt ddn’t d. Hy, ths fmly ws gvn “bscts”. wsn’t vn gvn bscts! Thnk ‘ll wrt lttr t Cndn nwspprs lttng th wrld knw hw ws dprvd f bscts fr 15 hrs, wht, blnd Mgs, whl sttng n scndry wtng r n Mntrl tw yrs g. Trtr. stll sy, gt vr t. f y fly t th S, y rsk bng rfsd ntry f y’r nt S ctzn. Sm gs f y’r mrcn nd fly t th K, strl, NZ r ny wstrn rpn cntry.ts nt rght t ntr tht cntry, ts prvlg. Th lw s th lw, nd ths fmly wld nt hv bn dtnd hd mmgrtn nt hd sm cncrn tht thy mght nt rtrn. w wll nvr knw wht tht cncrn s. S mmgrtn clrly sn’t cncrnd fr th hndrds f pssngrs wh gt ff th flghts frm Dlh nd Qtr tk bck t th S wh r f Mddl strn r Sth sn dscnt nd sly gt thrgh mmgrtn, nd wh r brwn sknnd nd sppsdly “rclly prfld”. by th wy, wsn’t thr stry bt wmn frM clnd nt lng g wh ws dprtd bcs th lst tm sh ntrd th S sh hd vrstyd hr trst vs? Rcl prflng? r prhps TH LW.

J France

Takuan: More importantly (on the question of Australian sycophancy) John Howard is gone.

Kevin Rudd and his labour party still give the US alot of time and energy, most probably more so now Democrats are in power, but he / they certainly won’t cowtow like Howard did. He really was Bush’s whipping boy.

Howard being in Washington on 9/11 didn’t help – he said right there and then that Australia would be with the US “all the way”, before even consulting with his party room.

And no – no treaty regarding citizens. Even the ANZUS treaty isn’t a binding one, esp since the “NZ” part doesn’t really apply anymore. If Australia did need help for the US military…well, i’d be curious to see what we’d actually get.

On another note, it’s very sad to see all the DVing here… not so much the DVing itself, but the fact that it had to be done.

And bickering over “detained” and “starved”? Why don’t you just come out and say ‘Thems are darkie musleem types, I’m actually quite pleased they never got to mah country”

cstatman

here is an interesting question.

How, as a US citizen, could I start to reach out to folks like this and say “wow, I am really sorry about how MY government treated you. I do not support this, and am working to change this government”

srsly, if We the People started reaching out? How could we do it?

C

Takuan

“US Customs people couldn’t legally do this ”
technically yes, but when in the hands of people with guns and back rooms you must deal with the practical if you wish to live. “Practically”, any person, including American citizens could be murdered and even disappeared by Border enforcement personnel. At least over the past eight years. It will take some time to change this.

A good start would be murder trials for any who killed Mexicans crossing a barren desert, unarmed and just looking for work.

aldasin

“Muslims commit nearly all terrorism in the world”

Really, that’s all you need to tell you it’s time to stop feeding the troll.

Takuan

Dear Cstatman: thank you for the first suggestion that might do some good.

Takuan

http://www.smh.com.au/contacts/

the Sydney Morning Herald (that carried the story in Australia)

a letter to the editor?

Takuan

a pony? I want a pony!

seabear

While this is a very unfortunate situation I can’t help but to think there is more to this story. Would like to hear the other side

jacob_ewing

It’s rather frustrating that people pick nits over the meaning of a single word in an article, completely distracting from the meat of the writing itself.

Pick any semi-modern English dictionary and you’ll find an entry for the transitive verb “starve” meaning “To deprive of nourishment.” (that particular one I found in Merriam-Webster and Wiktionary). This very accurately fits the “few biscuts” mentioned.

Language is a flexible thing, and you’re putting forth a rather weak complaint by arguing the misuse of a word based on one strict definition. Starvation ~can~ refer to being severely malnourished for an extended period of time, but that is not it’s sole meaning, and the usage here was well withing it’s range. Complaining about it is nothing more than a tangential distraction from the real content of the article.

mdh

Don’t “humor” me. That’s your game. It’s all your game. That’s what makes you a troll. Shut up.

WA

I would say that the issue here isn’t so much with the individual words of “caged”, “starved”, and so on, but the fact that the article is written wholly from one point of view, held by people with distinct, if justifiable, interests and biases. In that sort of situation, one quite often finds that even if each word is technically true, the way they are combined, and the way the story is written, presents a very one-sided and usually distorted depiction of the subject. My family is well known for being able to do this.

Similarly, if the US government had been the only source of information, the story would likely be completely different, and distorted in another way. It would be ideal if both sides could be explained, but the US government hasn’t responded, because doing so is difficult: while for the family, anything they say only involves their case, any statement that the government makes will be analysed far more carefully, and will no doubt garner complaints from someone, especially if the statement isn’t followed in some later case. This is why one typically sees articles like this, where a person has some story about how horrible the government or some company (often a phone company) is, and the targeted organization refuses to discuss individual cases.

Unfortunately, this leads to a situation where many people assume the worst, and that affects the image of Customs quite severely. It would seem like a wise policy decision to have a staff dedicated to responding to articles like this with details on individual cases. Then again, what are the legal and privacy implications of the government releasing things like parts of criminal or immigration records to newspapers?

mdh

“I’m not American and I neither know nor care about Dick Cheney’s opinions.”

Oh, you KNOW his opinions. You know them very very well. You probably even think you came to them yourself. Good for you.

All I want is for my grandchildren not to die in my grandfathers war. Kapeesh?

mdh

srsly, if We the People started reaching out? How could we do it?

We could elect a skinny guy with a funny name to be president. (Maybe one from Hawaii, or maybe the south side of Chicago??)

KappaKahi

This is why I won’t leave the US. I’m too scared of trying to get back in.

macrumpton

If I were from overseas and I had brown skin there is no way I would come to the US. I am a white citizen of this country and I am nervous every time I fly because the TSA actions do not seem to be based on any kind of logic. Anyone is vulnerable.

RichSPK

Thanks for telling the story, but you do yourself a dis-service by using biased language. Detained and caged? Caged is already covered by the word detained, isn’t it? Isn’t virtually every jail cell a cage? And starved overnight? They weren’t fed overnight. That’s mean, but it’s not starvation.

Daemon

Nope. No racism here. Move along.

Anonymous

in France: CRA (Centre de RÃ©tention Administrative) or “Administrative Detention Center”

Modusoperandi

some1 “Either way, racial profiling isn’t inherently wrong either. Suppose there was a race of blue-skinned people and something like 70% of them were guilty of terrorism.”
And when 70% of Muslims start flying planes into buildings you won’t sound like a nutjob. Instead, you’ll be a sage, and we’ll make you robes of the flannel (because it’s so soft and comfy). When 40,000,000 Muslims go apeshit over a cartoon I’m just as scared as when multiple countries from the “civilized” West bomb the shit out of a country that had nothing to with 9/11, but was conveniently strategic, unpopular and weak…and is conveniently now helping to create a bunch of Muslims who really do hate us and may very well help out with the next 9/11 (much like supporting Saudi Arabia’s corrupt kingdom, as well as any other number of thugs and tinpot dictators, did for the first one).

“I’d like a serious answer to this and not an appeal to emotion or some angry liberal kneejerk reaction.”
If you don’t use facts (anecdotes are not facts), why are you holding us to such a high standard?

“There is, however, a difference between Islam and Christianity, which means that Islamic fundamentalist != Christian fundamentalist. The latter do not represent mainstream Christianity, whereas the former do represent mainstream Islam.”
This statment hangs on what you consider a big enough group to be “mainstream”. How many American Christians think that Jesus will be back this year (or, failing that, in their lifetime)? Do you think that has no effect on policies, both foreign and domestic?

“Things like honor killings, jihad, fascism, irrational anger-induced violence and an inability to peacefully co-exist with infidels are all part of mainstream Islam.”
Again, see the mess in Iraq that we helped create. Those swarthy foreigners are our infidels.

“When they’re confronted with some atrocity done in Islam’s name, they always make excuses or try to claim it didn’t really happen, some shadowy international conspiracy (Zionists, Illuminati, CIA, Fox News, take your pick) just made it look that way. They also frequently defend the oppression of women by saying that it’s for their own good, and rant about the West being a satanic den of decadence and corruption.”
When they’re confronted with some atrocity done in Christ’s name, they always make excuses (“no True Christian…”) or try to claim it didn’t really happen, some shadowy international conspiracy (Zionists, Illuminati, ACLU, “liberal media”, take your pick) just made it look that way. They also frequently defend the oppression of women by saying that it’s for their own good, and rant about the Hollywood being a satanic den of decadence and corruption.
This is fun!

“They’re very different religions based on very different religious texts and very different moral, ethical and philosophical principles.”
Actually, no. They’re quite similar. It’s just that Christianity, for the most part, has matured (for instance, you hardly ever hear of a witch-burning anymore). Only fools take the Bible literally nowadays (admittedly the Koran, much to its detriment, is quite easy to take literally). Christian apologists make the text not say what it says. Islamic ones don’t yet have to do so.

“I don’t see anything that would suggest that they’re Muslims. Do you? “
They’re swarthy and have weird (probably non-Australian accents). That’s enough for the Common Redneckus Withbadgeus.

Takuan
“You know, if they play this right they should be able to set the new underclass against the “filthy immigrant hordes” and keep the heat off themselves.”
“Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be fr…Eww! That one looks foreign!”

“…cheap labor. No matter what.”
The odd part is the ideal endpoint results in a smattering of ultra-rich (who won’t buy the crap that comes out of sweatshops) and a giant number of ultra-poor (who can’t afford to buy the crap that they make). On the good side, I hear that it will be a musical.

arkizzle “This seems counter to Commandment 6 too, but that was sort of my point.”
“Thou shalt not kill” doesn’t apply when God commands the opposite. It’s good to be the king.

some1 “‘Bigoted’ is another one of those liberal buzz words that doesn’t actually mean anything, or at least doesn’t anymore.”
…not since white trash took it back. All I hear in the trailerpark nowadays is “Yo. What’s up, my bigot?” Then we shotgun a Pabst Blue Ribbon. It’s awesome. Woo!

Master Gracey “Why was the family detained and sent back to AU?”
I’m sorry, Number 213, but that information is classified. Only clones level Blue or higher may have access. Suffice it to say that the prisoners in question were so dangerous that we asked them no questions, did not charge them with anything, then we sent them home, where they were not imprisoned. It’s the only way to fight crime. Nothing to see here. Move along.

optuser “Modusoperandi: Poor treatment of Canadians has already happened…”
What?! The timetable has been moved up? Why wasn’t I told? Damnit, my Iron Heel is out getting resoled!

cstatman “How, as a US citizen, could I start to reach out to folks like this and say “wow, I am really sorry about how MY government treated you.”
One of those giant Toblerones from the airport would be a nice start.

some1

“They treated us like terrorists,” Mr Rabbi said. “We are Australian citizens.”

Terrorists have citizenships too, and increasingly often in Western countries. That said, these guys don’t strike me as terrorists. They don’t even seem to be Muslims.

tamar

“What’s with Americans treating us like shit?”

Why do you stereotype all American people like that? I am an American and I don’t approve of this at all.

Pipenta

Zeta,

Don’t bring your kids to Seaworld. It’s a theme park. It’s a fake.

Go to the Bahamas. Take your kids to some place where they can see real coral reefs, instead of fiberglass ones. Take them some place where they will walk on a real beach, through a real mangrove, wade through an actual turtlegrass meadow. You want to swim in the water. You want to see the real deal. You want to sit on soft and dazzling sand, not in plastic bleachers. Go to the Bahamas where the water is a hundred times as clear as Florida’s and do some snorkeling.

Ultimately, if you go to one of the Out Islands like Eleuthera or one of the Exumas, you will end up spending a lot less than if you do the Florida theme park experience. The food is basic. There are no souvenirs to buy. The few bars are usually under thatched-palm roofs.

Yeah, give the theme parks a pass.

Antinous / Moderator

some1,

I think that we’re done with you.

Master Gracey,

We don’t permit commenters to defend repression based on confabulated scenarios. I’ll reinstate your account in three days after you’ve had time to peruse the Moderation Policy.

To the it’s-not-starving posse,

I’m guessing that you don’t have children. Your eating habits are your own business. When someone detains your children and doesn’t feed them, you won’t see it quite the same way.

Cory Doctorow

“They don’t even seem to be Muslims.”

Do you have any idea what an ugly bit of unconscious prejudice this betrays?

(Timothy McVeigh)

(The IRA)

PaulT

“That said, these guys don’t strike me as terrorists. They don’t even seem to be Muslims.”

Several hints for you, laughing boy:

- Muslim is not a race. This was an act of racism. they were detained because they were brown, nothing more, nothing less.

- Not all Muslims are terrorists

- Not all terrorists are Muslims

- Any idiot who equates the two is doing more harm than their ignorance allows them to see. People like you are the problem, not these guys.

decryption

This happened a few months ago to another Australian citizen:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/07/13/2302454.htm?section=justin

What’s with Americans treating us like shit? We even fought in your half-arsed war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Come on guys, give us some cred for that at least.

Alessandro Cima

The times they are a-changin’. For the past eight years we’ve suffered under the most aggressively inhuman and intolerant administration in the history of this country. The generalized fear encouraged by the Bush administration had to be fostered at all levels – from the ground up. So it stands to reason that the gatekeepers at airports would be the first of the terror line. Their mission is not to stop terror, but rather to foster terror and make people nervous about travel into and out of the U.S. The entire philosophy of the Bush administration was to keep people afraid, both enemies and citizens.

But that will change. The subnormals (and I use that term in total seriousness) who occupy jobs like those at Customs in U.S. airports will gradually be filtered out and modified in their behavior by a different attitude from the new administration. Terror is not Obama’s method. His method appears to be inclusion and discussion.

I have a little TSA story. Recently, I was arriving at LAX and climbing onto a crowded parking lot bus when three TSA agents in uniform jumped in front of me on the bus step. I said, “Thanks for that, buddy.” One agent turned around and said “Do you have a problem?” I replied by saying, “What does that ‘TSA’ on your shoulder stand for? ‘T S A’hole’?”

The guy pulled out his cell phone and called airport police, saying “I have a guy here verbally assaulting three officers. Meet the bus at the lot.” He then informed me that I would be arrested at the parking lot. I said it would certainly be an interesting conversation with the officers and that I looked forward to the outcome.

At the lot I was met by three squad cars of airport police. The lead officer came over and said, “What did you call the TSA officer?” I said I called him an a’hole. He smiled and asked if that was it. I said “Well he is an a’hole. Look at him.” After a few more minutes talking to the TSA nitwit and to me, the cop took me aside and told me they were sick and tired of the TSA idiots and would I like to find anything to complain about or press charges for against the TSA guy. I said no, goodnight and shook his hand. But he even gave me his phone number in case I changed my mind!

So there.

Modusoperandi

Antinous “When someone detains your children and doesn’t feed them, you won’t see it quite the same way.”
I’d only get mad if they gave me my kids back. “They’re the state’s problem now.” I would say to the fictional guards about my imaginary kids, “You deal with ‘em.”

Teresa Nielsen Hayden / Community Manager

Patrick, Xopher: Spot on. We’re still trying to get relatively minor bugs fixed, and we have a platform upgrade scheduled for the near future. Wanting whizzy new disciplinary systems is like asking Santa for a pony.

JorgeBurgos

Cool I’ll add this one to my list of reasons not to go to the US.

Willie McBride

Last year an Italian citizen was literally disappeared by the Custom and Borders Patrol officials. He managed to get out only because his fiancÃ©e’s well-connected family managed to activate a U.S. Senator and the New York Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/14/us/14visa.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=italian%20detained%20customs&st=cse

barjoe

Time was that getting to the States was relatively pleasant but you wondered about getting mugged when you were there. Now it’s the other way round.

Apply the three strikes and you’re out rule to the TSA people?

zeta

So my girlfriend keeps arguing about a trip to the US, she mainly wants to show SeaWorld in Florida to the kids. I think this is just a terrible idea. I would go alone (and already have several times, although before 9/11), I might even take here with me. But a family vacation?! No way. With children a vacation in the US is completely irresponsible.

seijihyouronka

I move for everyone on here nitpicking the use of “starving” to go 24-hours — during which you’re asleep for only 2 hours — on a few biscuits. I’ll assume that “a few” < 10, but I could be wrong.

Afterward, you will think:

a) “I feel not adequately fed!”
b) “I feel as if I’ve been denied nourishment!”
c) “I’m starving!”

Anonymous

As I understand it, there’s an extremely strong obligation in many parts of Indian society to take care of your aged parents. As I understand it, the US has had issues in the past where people would enter on a H1B, flip that in to a green card and become permanent residence. Their parents would come over and just not leave.

H1Bs are harder to get, and so one of the easiest routes for an Indian national in to the US for semi-permanent residency is to become an Australian citizen and then immediately apply for an E3 visa in to the US.

As a white anglo saxon Australian, when I applied for my E3 visa, they didn’t want to see any of my required documents, apart from my passport and a job offer. All of the financial stuff, etc., they waved away. And i’m bringing in my same sex partner on possibly the most obscure non-advertised visa the US offers? Sure, no problem! The visa officer and I even joked about how terrible the Bush administration was and how we’d be glad when he was out of office.

Apparently Indian people have a heck of a time getting approved. US immigration assumes if there’s different generations of families visiting each other, they’ll over stay.

You can read about people’s woes on the rather excellent http://britishexpats.com/forum/ – great forums for anyone emmigrating anywhere (ignore the ‘british’ in the url).

I probably entered the US a dozen times over the last 3 years. It never took more than 30 seconds in front of each immigration officer. Go figure.

Charles Miller

The rules for the Visa waiver programme have changed recently, at least as far as Australian visitors go. It used to be that you could rock up to the States without any prior approval, fill in the green form and get through customs, but now you need to apply at the consulate before you leave.

It’s a very recent change, and there’s been little public notice of it. The only reason I know is because my employer has an office in the USA and HR have been warning us about it. It’s quite possible that this family got caught on the wrong side of the change, which was all the excuse the authorities felt they needed to treat them like criminals.

Raj77

This is the same bunch that interrogated my (Irish, atheist) childhood friend for hours on his Disneyworld holiday this summer because his father, who died when he was a small child, was Egyptian.

minTphresh

hey anti! glad u could drop by. tom hale thinks u and tak are the same human! i got a good lulz outta that 1! thnx for spanking the trolls for us, and feel free to dv my comment above, it was just something i felt needed to be said.

Fee

People I know won’t visit the US because they have heard so many horror stories about the US. These poor people couldn’t avoid trying to get into the US to see their relative. Anyone who can, will, however. Who wants to spend the first few days of a holiday having your possessions searched and being kept in a cage?

It doesn’t matter if 99 people are treated OK and 1 family gets the cage treatment. It’s the inhumane and ridiculous treatment of the 100th family that puts people off.

Most people of every nationality and religious persuasion are loving, caring, law abiding people. It would be great if they were treated as such. It would be fantastic if we went back to the idea of innocent until proven guilty, and stopped punishing people for how they look.

It seems incredible that it is beyond the wit of US immigration officials to check the veracity of the family’s story.

Anonymous

Now that Obama is running the show this sort of crap won’t be happening. Wait a few months and come on over, things will be different now. The world changed last Tuesday.

Tom Hale

No minT, I thought that they might possibly be the same person. The few hours Antinous was away today assured me that this isn’t the case.

Unless – the Antinous/Takuan entity was just showing us just how bad comments can get without moderation.

robulus

Hey Some1, that was a particularly insensitive post, on a number of levels.

I get that being an Australian citizen doesn’t prove you are not a terrorist, but Australian citizens are allowed entry to the US for short stays without a visa.

They weren’t refused entry because of any suspicion of terrorism. Your assessment of their terrorist status based on their photo and your guess as to their religion is racist no matter what the result.

From the information supplied in the article, there was no reason to suspect this family was planning to stay longer in the US than is allowed, and the actions of US customs are truly disappointing.

pewma

I’m not backing up or condoning what Some1 said but the attitude of them possibly looking like muslims because they’re brown or that muslims are all terrorists has seemed to become common place in U.S. authorities mentality. It’s stupid and ignorant but let’s not forget all of the people that thought or still think that Barack H. Obama is a closet muslim(terrorist).

If it were a group of wickens that did 9/11 I can almost guarantee there would be the same profiling going on with anyone who looks kind of goth.

I hope this country can grow up.

netposer

C’mn Cry. “Strvd”? Nc hdln bt th fcts spk fr thmslvs. t’s fckd p sttn bt thrwng n th wrd “strvd” s shtty jrnlsm. t’s prtty cls t n trght l cnsdrng ths s th lst sntnc f yr blg pst –> “W wr gvn n fd, prt frm fw bscts,” Mr Rbb sd.”

S thy wr nt strvd whch wld b knd f mpssbl n 24 hr prd.

arkizzle

“One of those giant Toblerones from the airport would be a nice start.”

WIN

Palilay

I personally know of at least two Pakistani Australians who had this happen to them as early as 2003. The difference is back then nobody would support them in questioning it because 9/11 was still fresh in their minds so their “patriotism” was still blinding.

Anyone else find it a little poingnant irony that the guy’s name is “Rabbi” ?

Blue

>A reminder to the US CBP: what you do to foreigners, their governments are apt to do to Americans.

Cory, I don’t think Americans have, or ever will have anything to worry about when visiting Australia – whose government seems to be only *slightly* less-than sycophantic when it comes to what the US government wants.

Like the UK government – America’s bitches – sitting up and begging for favours: a one-way street.

jfranchino

I don’t have any trouble believing that the US Customs and Border Control have denied entry for people whom should be allowed entry. Hopefully the new administration will improve the situation.

However, I suspect we’re not getting the whole story here.

Are there numbers on how many visitors are turned away at the US border even though they have valid passports, visas, etc.? That seems like it might be public information. Maybe we can test Obama’s new FOIA policy.

minTphresh

pewma, it’s “Wiccan”. and it has nada to do with goth, although, some goths are wiccan.

cobratronik

Cry,

Wht ths fmly xprncd t th hnds f cstms ffcls s ndfnsbl, bt pls dn’t rsrt t mldrmtc hyprbl whn tryng t mk vld pnt. “Strvd”? Rlly? Sch xggrtns nly srv t wkn yr cs n th mnds f cnscnts mrcns wh wld thrws b swyd by yr rgmnts.

ls, please keep in mind that, as is unfortunately often the case, those given positions of importance and power are not always intellectually up to the tasks they’ve been charged with performing–and that the irresponsible and idiotic actions of a few individuals do not reflect the general attitudes of the American populace.

Tom Hale

Absolutely right – google image search Wiccan babes and compare those results to Goth babes. I may have to retry it with “moderate safe search off.”

Patrick Dodds

Would dsvmllng AND the full post linked to in the Hell Sewer somewhere in the nethers of the Intarwebz be too much?
Probably. Just drawing attention to them I guess.
*sighs*

imipak

I wish recruiters and trainers would realise that the small numbers of such sociopaths who exist in any society will obviously gravitate toward professions where they can get their jollies pulling stunts like this and be paid for it. In the UK (thanks partly to tabloid hysteria, and partly to the gradual realisation that a lot of children really do suffer terrible abuse) anyone applying for a job involving working with children has to be checked against the sex offender’s register. Surely applicants for police, prison, immigration and customs and similar professions should be carefully screened to weed out those twisted personalities who’ll perpetrate evil crap like this.

Or perhaps any “normal” person will turn into a fascist scumbag once they’re wearing a smelly uniform :(

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mFAwk2AffzE

Modusoperandi

minTphresh “pewma, it’s “Wiccan”. and it has nada to do with goth, although, some goths are wiccan.”
Hey! Don’t let your “facts” get in the way of a good stereotyping, hippie!

JustDisGuy

You know what would be great? If rational, sensible people actually took control of the American government and bureaucracy back from the idiots currently in control.

My daughter has been granted a wish by the Children’s Wish Foundation. We’d like to take her to Disneyland/world, but I will not take the chance on bringing her to the States. She has a LOT of medical equipment, including a feeding tube and pumps and liquid oxygen. I’ve read here about another family that was forced to void the integrity of the sterile seal on their child’s replacement feeding tube. As I said at the time, it wasn’t life threatening, but it sure as hell wouldn’t have been convenient or pleasant either. My daughters live-in caregivers are both Filipino, and have brown skin. I can just imagine the scene at the border… “sneaky terrorst SOB’s, thinking they can waltz through because they’re with a disabled child… I’ll show them!”

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – the US has become the place that the world went to war to prevent Germany from becoming. I don’t even think there is any way to fix it at this point…

Modusoperandi

arkizzle: I can’t finish it. There’s simply too much Toblerone in a Toblerone. You want I share?

MrWeeble

Mags, while your story is unfortunate, you say that after your interview you were informed of the reason for your delay and told that at a later date you could apply for readmission to Canada. You were then released, permitted to retrieve your car and continue your planned journey home.

Now imagine how you would feel if instead, you had been put on a plane back to London (at your own expense). Imagine you were not told of any reason why you had been turned away. Imagine you were not allowed to go and retrieve your car. Now imagine that the car is in fact a loved one that you are not permitted to see in order to say your last goodbyes. I think you will now see why there is more indignation over this case than yours

arkizzle

Pewma
To be fair Some1 didn’t suggest they were Muslims, rather that “they don’t even seem to be Muslims”.

As if their being Muslim had any bearing on the rightness or wrongness of the situation.. and as if one could tell their religion from their picture or citizenship.

robulus

Hi Johnny, Australia is in the US visa waiver program, and we don’t need to apply for a visa for short stays.

Calton

Why is it whenever I read a story about CBP people behaving like fascist morons, it always seems to be LAX? Is it some sort of punishment post where CBP sends their least competent people?

Man On Pink Corner

How about knocking the hell off with the excessive disemvowellment? I’m over 18, and don’t need a patron.

Antinous / Moderator

Man On Pink Corner,

Feel free to host whatever racist and bully-loving comments you want on your own blog.

Mindpowered

In Obama’s America no less.

Perhaps, it could be, that in the interest of fiscal prudence, that budget for the entire TSA, Border Security and customs apparatus, be cut to zero.

Then bank the cash from the mass inflow of happy tourists, hard working immigrants and undelayed, uninconvieneced and happier populace.

Why you could probably cut a couple of hundred billion from the inflows.

Patrick Dodds

I’m against this kind of crap as much as the next person but “starved”? People who think this sort of treatment is OK but might be persuaded otherwise if they read a bit more about it are going to see the word “starved” and think “nah, axe-grinding” and move on.

noen

some1 is no1 2 me

The guy thinks Rodney King had it coming to him. Nice to see the GOP base still clinging to that anchor and riding it all the way to the bottom of the ocean.

zuzu

Do they show this on that revolting Homeland Security U.S.A. (i.e. border security) television show? — ABC’s attempt at following in the vicarious authoritarian tradition of COPS and JAIL.

Illegal immigration is not a problem. If you’re worried about expanding costs of social services, require proof of citizenship at the collection point.

arkizzle

Pink Corner,

It was hateful bullshit that would only cause the whole thread to be hateful in return.

stanfrombrooklyn

I don’t understand this devowelling “punishment”. All it does is pique my curiosity to wonder what someone said. Then my eyes are crossed from trying to read it. Why don’t you just establish clear rules of what people can and can’t say. If they violate those rules, then don’t post it.

P.S. While it’s obviously true that all muslims are not terrorists, it’s hard to find a terrorist or terrorist group with worldwide reach in the past 20 years that is not muslim. Please correct me if I’m wrong and George Bush does not count.

Xopher

Patrick, it’s a technological nightmare, requires extra webbage, and also…we don’t WANT the entry to be easy to read. Also, we don’t want it to be linkable (“Look what someone said on BoingBoing!”).

Cory Doctorow

If they were criminals in jail, or prisoners of war, the law would have required them to be fed (in fact, the law would have demanded an enormous and serious amount of care of the two children in particular). The fact that they were not adequately fed (by penal and military standards) during a 24h involuntary detention means that they were “starved.” What else would you call it?

zuzu

Fitting that Homeland Security USA is the Americanized version of the Australian Border Security show. Because Australia also has an awesome immigration policy. ::sarcasm::

minTphresh

patrick dodds, i believe your punishment should be to babysit modus’ imaginary hellion children for at least 3 days whilst he and his imaginary wife gorge themselves on toblerone. i feel it is only fair.

jaybee

And then there was the time they detained the chairman of Qantas for carrying aircraft plans (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/01/10/qantas.security/index.html)…..

IamInnocent

We even fought in your half-arsed war in Iraq and Afghanistan.
You’d have to look long and hard to find any sign of gratitude from the American military for its allies. They are convinced that they and they alone are saving the World, pretty much every day, and that our dieing is payment for the debt that we so contracted.

General Specific

It’s US Customs and Border Protection, not Patrol.

arkizzle

Modus,

Strictly in the interests of International Goodwill, I will have a few chunks. I think we can all reach a great new position in the world.

The Toblerone Accord?

Anonymous

My wife and I went through LAX in the summer of 2008. She was a first time entry into the US with a permanent residence card (greencard). All our papers were in order.

We were put through the ringer – which I expected as she is coming in for the first time.

What I did not expect was the condescending attitude, peppered with a hint of contempt, from the two entry agents who handled are case.

I knew it was going to be bad when I approached the counter and tried to connect by introducing my wife and I with the comment of and we have had a long day on our flight from China…

The agent quipped back, “I can make it a hell of a lot longer.”

Tom Hale

Man On Pink Corner, Without BB’s mild form of moderation, disemvowelment, the comment section would end up resembling Youtube’s comment section. Check out the comments on this Youtube video – President Barack Obama 2009 Inauguration and Address.

Xopher

Summer 178-179: Hey, at least you’re pronouncing it right!

Okathleen, we don’t do sigs here. Your website link is in your profile; please don’t put it in each post.

AntagonistPrime

Last time I visited the states was for PAX 07, the customs check was so hostile I doubt I’ll ever return. My passport was taken off me for “further inspection”, bags were searched and on the way back via Canada I had this wonderful exchange on the US side:

“So you’re an Irish citizen?”
“Yes.”
“Born in New Zealand?”
“Yes.”
“So you’re an Australian citizen?”
“No, New Zealand Citizen.”
“So which is it? Irish or New Zealand?”
“I have dual citizenship.”
“Hmmm… one country not good enough? And you live in London?”
“Yes”
“So you don’t live in either country you belong to?”
“No”
“I see…”

After that he thankfully gave my passport back and I was allowed to continue.

jjasper

jfranchino –

However, I suspect we’re not getting the whole story here.

If there were more story, the US consulate could say so.

Modusoperandi

arkizzle: Take a big piece. Share it with an enemy. If chocolate can’t bring humanity together, there is truly no hope for us.

Patrick Dodds

Hi Cory – I’d call it “not adequately fed”.

Takuan

I note Toblerone comes in white, brown and dark brown.

Keppoch

@#114 posted by tamar ,

“What’s with Americans treating us like shit?”

Why do you stereotype all American people like that? I am an American and I don’t approve of this at all.

When so many Americans stop stereotyping so many other people, perhaps they themselves will stop being stereotyped as racists.

The trick is to get that cart in front of that horse.

Master Gracey

First, let me say that this posting doesn’t even include the C & BP reason for the detention, questioning, search, return – it should have, IMHO.

From the article:

Over the next 24 hours, officers questioned the Thornleigh taxi driver and his aged-care worker wife, patted them down and searched their luggage before sending them to a detention centre in a caged van. They were then taken to a hotel with other detainees at 2.30am to sleep with armed guards by their bedside before being woken at 4.30am and put on a flight back to Sydney…

Questioned, patted-down and search their luggage – that is not unreasonable, and it is also not common. It happens, but the airports would be in gridlock if it was more than an occasional event.

A caged van strains the definition of being caged pretty far. These people were in detention, and they were moved in a secure van – is the counter argument they should have hired a taxi?

They were taken to a hotel – Cory left that out of his list of activities that transpired.

The article continues:

“They treated us like terrorists,” Mr Rabbi said. “We are Australian citizens. Why did they have to keep us in a detention centre? Why did they have to lock up my kids?”

Those SOBs at C & BP kept the kids with their parents – imagine the excitement if they took the children away from their parents! C & BP lose either way…

The article continues:

Mr Rabbi says that when he explained he was in the US to visit his father, the officers threatened him.

Because, as we all know, a foreign national attempting to relocate his family in the US illegally would say so if asked by a C & BP official…

The article continues:

Despite producing the family’s $6400 return tickets, dated February 5, he says the officers accused him of attempting to illegally stay in the US…

Return ticket? Since it is a well-known fact that C & BP/TSA screens out people with one-way tickets, tickets bought for cash, or tickets bought right before the flight, it isn’t hard to imagine that a clever border jumper would invest in return airline tickets, esp. refundable ones, pay with a credit card, and order them in advance.

The article continues:

The family, tired and hungry after their 18-hour flight from Sydney to Los Angeles via Melbourne, were given minimal food and drink during their time at the airport.

Minimal food is not the same as starving them – I’ll bet the food C & BP officials gave them during their 24 hours in America exceeded the quality and quantity the airline provided on the 18 hour flight from AU to USA, or the return flight…

Was anyone else on the flight detained, questioned, searched, patted down, returned to AU? No? Interesting… This story leaves me curious about why the had an interest in this family, something Boing Boing left out… I’m off to investigate, but in th emeantime, while it sounds bad, and likely is bad, I’ll reserve final judgement until I learn the other side of this issue.

Patrick Dodds

Hi moderators,

Just a thought, but their seems to be a discrepancy in your application of dsmvllng thus:

EmmaJune writes:

“nvlst nd prsmd jrnlst f crs shld knw th mnng f wrds. th vrly drmtc s f ‘strvd’ (y mght wnt t rfr t dctnry hr) my hlp nct sm ppl, bt clrly shws bs tht ndrmns whtvr pnt y try t mk.”

Whilst Mintphresh writes:

“some1, you may believe that your so-called arguements are mind blowingly apt, but to those of us stuck reading them, they just tend to make you sound like an ignorant dick. a walkin’ talkin’ flaccid penis.”

At the risk of a dv myself, isn’t the former more enlightening and closer to “debate” than the latter which is bordering on the vitriolic? I know Mintphresh (hello) is a regular here and has themselves suggested, further down the thread, that you dv his/her post, but whilst it still stands it seems to be a partisan application of “censorship” (I know, probably the wrong word – your blog etc etc – it’s getting on a bit in my world though, and bed beckons – bear with me). I know EmmaJune and myself are in the minority here re: our dislike of the use of the term “starve”, but is unpopularity a qualification for dsmvllng rather than offensive trolling?

Finally, and apologies for going on so long, have you ever, after due debate and consideration, re-emvowelled a post?

Antinous / Moderator

Patrick,

I miss a lot, particularly in long, wrangly threads where I end up skimming. That’s what the eyeball is for.

As to ‘starve’, moderation is contextual. Since multiple people said virtually the same thing, I left the one that best qualified for having value in the conversation, which was yours. And, yes, that’s a completely subjective judgment on my part. The fact that you have a long history of good comments also helps. Cory uses exciting language. He gets busted on it regularly from readers who view BB as an alternative New York Times and want an encyclopedia tone. He writes the way he writes, he’s successful at it and I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for him to change his style.

Comments occasionally get re-emvoweled. It generally happens when one of us completely misconstrues the meaning of the comment. I don’t think that happened in this thread.

Cinnamonbite

“Strvd vrnght.”
Y mn y mssd mdnght snck. “Cgd thm,” bcms rdng n lckd vn nd, “dtnd,” mns pt p n htl.

BFD! Frnkly, ‘m gld t hr tht th .S. trns ppl wy ccsnlly.

Takuan

ah, and as a nod no doubt to the sweet molluscs,
a filling made of white honey and almond nougat.

mags

#191, bcs lv 2 hrs sth f mntrl, t ws hghly nlkly wld b pt bck n pln t Lndn. Bt f wr frm th K nd dprtd wld hv t g bck nd b vry ngry. nd, ys, ddn’t hv dyng fthr (w prsm hs fthr rlly ws dyng). thr thn tht, my stry s th sm jst hppnd t lv clsr t hm. Prhps tht’s why thy dtnd m fr 15 hrs, tryng t fgr t whthr t lt m t pck p my cr nd g hm t Vrmnt n my wn. By th wy, n th sm rm wth m ws mn wh cm n th sm flght frm th K s dd. H ws Lbns. H, t, ddn’t knw why h ws dtnd, nd h, t, skd fr fd (h skd f thy wld g by hm hmbrgr frm brgr kng, whch thght ws fnny, nd whch thy rfsd). n th mddl f th nght, h ws tkn t dtntn cntr, prsmbly bcs h wld b dprtd n th nxt flght t. ws lcky thy vntlly dd tll m, bt ccrdng t Cndn mmgrtn lw (whch ‘v snc rd, nd ts th sm fr K mmgrtn lws), thy wr ndr n blgtn t tll m. Ys, ws bl t b “rhblttd” bt thn gn, s cn nyn wh hs bn dnd ntry t th S r Cnd f th rsn ws n ld cnvctn. f ths fmly wnts t rpply fr vs, nlss thy wr prmnntly dnd ntry, thy cn. f thy wr prmnntly dnd ntry,hwvr, thn th mmgrtn hd vry gd rsn t dtn thm nd snd thm hm t strl. nd, n, ts nt r rght t knw why. s fr ths sck lvd n, fl sd fr ths fmly, bt stll dn’t s hw ths s “rcst” r tht thy wr sngld t. nly s tht w hr n sd f th stry, th ggrvd Bngldsh fmly’s sd. Thr r mltpl lyrs f ths stry. f crs, wld fl sd f cldn’t s my fmly mmbr wh s dyng.Bt wh knws hw ccrt ths stry s? nd vn f t wr th trth (s t prbbly s), s wht? Ths r stll nt mrcn ctzns, nd thy stll r nt gvn n tmtc rght t ntr th S. N n wh s nt S ctzn s tmtclly gvn th rght t b hr. t s prvlg, nt rght. Sm gs fr th K nd Cnd (s fnd t).Th mmgrtn ffcrs rn’t sppsd t b sntmntl nd try yd, r nc. Mst f th tm, th mmgrtn ffcrs ‘v ncntrd n rt t th K nd rp (nd Cnd) r brsk. Thy dn’t hv tm t mk smll tlk r t d lts f smlng nd jkng rnd. Tht’s nt thr jb. Thr jb s t mk sr ths wh r nt lgbl t gt nt r cntry dn’t gt n. Prd. f thy lstnd t vry sb stry, thy wld lt jst bt vryn n. , fr n, m grtfl tht Cnd nd th S nd th K r dng thr bst t kp crmnls nd nwntds t. Thy my ccsnlly slp p, bt s wht? Fr th mst prt thy d gd jb. Th nly thng dffrnt frm thr stry nd mn ws tht hppnd t lv tw hrs sth f th Cndn brdr, bt stll ws hld fr 15 hrs. Hd lvd n nthr cntry, wld hv bn snt bck by pln. h, nd ws gvn wtr, bt n bscts (thy cgd m p n wtng rm fr 15 hrs nd strvd m).h, nd ‘m wht nd blnd. nd ‘m nt Cndn. Cnd hd th prfct rght t dprt m.

arkizzle

Modusi @ 201

Made me LMAO

Takuan

happens all the time

Modusoperandi

Takuan: It’s also shaped with individual pieces joined together by a common (and pretty solid) foundation.
Also, in the end, it’s all the same colour.
Maybe you should ignore that last part.

krink52

Thanks again for the previous administration’s attitude towards anyone who doesn’t look like they should be here.

arkizzle

Modus

I will bring dignataries and ambassadors from far and wide to join together in triangley goodness.

To the Accord!

Takuan

I vote the accompanying beverage be Drambuie supped from the appropriate navel.

Master Gracey

For those interested, here is an accurate-seeming, but I can’t vouch for it detailing of the entry requirements for AU citizens travelling to US:

http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/TravelBulletins/United_States-New_Entry_Requirements

dd t th mx tht ths fmly mmgrtd t frm Bngldsh fr yrs rlr (th mnnr n whch thy dd ths s nknwn, bt ssmd t b lgl/prpr), t s <>pssbl thy trppd p n n r mr f th dtld ntry rqrmnts t ntr th S lstd n th bv lnk.

Wht s thr xct ctznshp? r thy fll ctzns f , r thy n sm frm f tmprry stt n th wy t fll ctznshp? Dd thy cmply wth ll pprwrk rqrmnts?

W jst dn’t knw.

Summer

Octopuser, #84: Also, there was a case of a female Canadian citizen who was intercepted at Detroit on an airline connection back to Canada who was detained by US Customs, passport seized (accused of being forged), and put back on a plane to the country of origin. I can’t find the article but someone else can probably dig it up.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1689.htm This one didn’t happen at the Detroit airport, but O’Hare.

Charles Miller, #121: According to the story at the link, the family did in fact have visas to enter the United States.

Man On Pink Corner

Couple of points:

Man On Pink Corner, Without BB’s mild form of moderation, disemvowelment, the comment section would end up resembling Youtube’s comment section.

I’d like to think it’d look more like Fark’s… irreverent and edgy, but rarely illiterate or obscene. YouTube’s primary content attracts one demographic, while BoingBoing’s attracts a completely different one. I don’t believe that there’s anything BoingBoing could do to attract the YouTube crowd, even if they wanted to.

133

It was hateful bullshit that would only cause the whole thread to be hateful in return.

The antidote to bad speech is more speech.

If a comment is so genuinely obscene and irrelevant that it needs to be censored to maintain the blog’s values, it (arguably) should be removed altogether. Otherwise, by bowdlerizing it, you’re just calling attention to it, and making smart people more curious about what the author had to say.

134:

Feel free to host whatever racist and bully-loving comments you want on your own blog.

Fine, but stop pretending to be hosting an enlightened forum where wrongheaded, racist opinions can be exposed and rebutted as such. Political correctness is nothing more than the Wal-Marting of culture by a more-pleasant name.

Antinous / Moderator

I don’t believe that there’s anything BoingBoing could do to attract the YouTube crowd, even if they wanted to.

That’s only because you don’t see the comments that never make it through.

The antidote to bad speech is more speech.

You may thrive on conflict, but many readers don’t.

noen

“Was anyone else on the flight detained, questioned, searched, patted down, returned to AU? “

Shorter Master Gracey: The fact that they were detained proves their guilt.

Takuan

did the Border guards ask the victims if they were diabetic?

Takuan

jeez, Pinkie, read the damned Moderation Thread and read it in the context of the dates it developed over and THINK dammit. You’re embarrassing us.

buddy66

denied nourishment is better.

Master Gracey

KRNK52 sd:
Thnks gn fr th prvs dmnstrtn’s tttd twrds nyn wh dsn’t lk lk thy shld b hr.

Whn wll t bcm th rslt f th crrnt dmnstrtn’s tttd? Jst crs…

W hnstly hv n d why thy wr rtrnd t , th fmly hs thr thry, nd tht s ll tht s rprtd… Wht f th fllw brght cllctn f smngly rrplcbl fmly hrlms (wddng phts, vrs lgl pprs, tc.) ldng th C & BP gnt t hv rsnbl cs t sspct thy hd n plns t rtrn t , rtrn tckts r nt?

By nt tllng s why thy wr sngld t/dtnd, w r lft t mgn mtv/rsn, nd n thng w cn b sr f, mny f th rdrs hr cld b clld “glss hlf-mpty” typs whn t cms t S mmgrtn, C & BP, TS, tc. Y, KRNK52, hv dcdd t fll tht vcm wth yr mgnd rsn tht thy wr dtnd bsd n thr pprnc – y hv n ctl nfrmtn t bs tht cnclsn n.

Prtty sn, th nw dmnstrtn wll “wn” th plcy t th brdr, bt sspct plcs wn’t chng tht mch, n mttr hw mch y my hp fr t.

Man On Pink Corner

Here, I’ll try to put my point another way: Leaving hateful comments untouched makes the author look bad. Censoring them with extensive disemvowellment makes the blog look bad. You, as one of several individual moderators, are demanding that I trust your judgment as to what comments have merit.

Disemvowelling gives the MasterGraceys of the world more influence over BoingBoing’s gestalt, rather than less.

My advice: if you feel the need to disemvowel a whole comment rather than a few minor over-the-line excerpts, you should hose it altogether. It still isn’t the right thing to do (IMHO) but at least it doesn’t come across as patronizing, leaving you wide-open to suspicions of bias.

I know this debate has been held before, and more appropriately elsewhere, so I’ll shut up now. This just seemed like an ideal thread in which to make these points.

Takuan

what does the FSM say about Toblerone?

Patrick Dodds

Cinnamonbite: They were kept in a detention centre, not just taken to a hotel. Whilst I suspect you might be the type who never leaves the US, let’s hope when you do you are treated this way.
Jeepers, I wish I’d never mentioned the “starvation” thing….

Tom Hale

So, was a reason for detaining them given? I mean a real reason – if he, for instance, resembled someone that homeland security considers suspicious, or a similar name , or a suspicious history, that could be a legitimate reason. Detaining them only because of their race is a crime – isn’t it? – if not, it should be.

Anonymous

I’m a white, blonde, protestant Christian citizen of a nation that is an ally of the U.S. and a participant in the Iraq and Afghanistan messes. By those characteristics, I should have no qualms about travelling to the U.S. — after all, unlike all the brown, non-Christian people from nations that aren’t aligned with the U.S., I should be welcome, yes?

But I wouldn’t feel welcome.

I happen to believe in the things that far too many Americans only pay lip service to, and I would be far too conscious of America’s failure in this regard.

As the world sees, day after day, the United States abandoning any pretense at civil liberties, it slowly gives up hope for America. Even with Pres. Obama in office, I frankly no longer believe that it is possible for America to stop its descent. Some call it fascism or imperialism, but those exaggerated and inflammatory terms aren’t really necessary to describe the real problem: Americans have forgotten (or are in the process of forgetting) all the beautiful principles that the nation was founded on.

America used to be something special.

It’s just another country now.

Takuan

you know Antinous, I think we need to establish a private Chamber of Horrors and Postings Sewer. Somewhere where the filtered crap can be kept apart and shown on occasion to those that need convincing that toxic bile really does exist.

Ever wonder about people who have to look at kiddie porn as part of their job? Cops and such like that have the task of gathering evidence and chasing real monsters? Every one I every saw interviewed has obviously been marked by the job. But it has to be done.

Filtering hate speech, malignant stupidity and just plain boring mindless spray-painting of “Fuk U!” has to be done here too. Part of the necessary job. Doubt it? Just remember the most blood-boiling thing you ever saw here passed the filters.

There is no real censorship here. The most extreme positions can be presented if done with due regard for the house rules and intelligence and sensibilities of the community.

And fuck anyone who says otherwise.

Xopher

stanfrombrooklyn 192: I don’t understand this devowelling “punishment”. All it does is pique my curiosity to wonder what someone said. Then my eyes are crossed from trying to read it. Why don’t you just establish clear rules of what people can and can’t say. If they violate those rules, then don’t post it.

Please see BoingBoing’s Moderation Policy. If you read the comment thread (or search through it; it’s kind of long), you’ll see that the issues you raise have been discussed at length. In short, disemvowelling deprecates without deleting, and any system of “clear rules” will be gamed by trolls.

Mags, please cut it out. We know you’re white and blonde and a former drunk driver. I’m almost ready to ask how long you’ve worked for DHS, but you keep getting official names wrong, so maybe not.

mags

At least we don’t do this! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1127823/Illegal-immigrants-DNA-tested-new-crackdown-France.html

and I hear they want a DNA database of every UK citizen now,and I’m sure DNA testing of immigrants or potential immigrants will not be far behind in the UK. Last time I traveled there 6 weeks ago, my face was scanned. I never had that done before.

Patrick Dodds

You’re right Mint – it is fair and just and I hereby surrender.

Pam Rosengren

This is not new.

The same was done to the editor of an Australian women’s magazine when she tried to enter the US to interview Olivia Newton-John about breast cancer. The hunger made her agitated, so she was treated even worse. http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/11/17/1069027021940.html

And again, to an Australian music guru when he tried to enter the US to interview Enrique Iglesias http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/01/21/1074360810902.html?from=storyrhs

This activity is widespread, against many kinds of people. We don’t like it, and lots of us won’t travel to the USA any more. It is estimated to cost the American tourism industry $120 billion per year http://www.americazoom.org/archives/200701/

I might add that the apalling comments here, the worst I have ever seen on BoingBoing, aren’t going to help. Not even with your wonderful new President. I don’t think he can work miracles against the deeply entrenched prejudice I see here.

Thanks Cory for running this one, at least some can now see what happens to ordinary people when they try to go to the USA.

Anonymous

My earlier message seems to have gotten lost in the mire. I’m an American, blonde,48, who got deported from Canada after flying in on a flight from the UK two years ago. I live just across the border in the state of Vermont. I was not told why I was being detained, but sent to a “secondary inspection” room, where I ultimately waited 15 hours. Yes, 15. You heard me right. I was only given water to drink. I attempted repeatedly to find out why I was not allowed to leave, to no avail. Finally, I was called into an office and told I was allowed to leave the airport. I was given a transit visa to go to the Vermont border (my car was parked at a nearby park n’ride), and told that if i attempted to come back into Canada i would be in serious trouble, but that I could apply to be “rehabilitated”. And my offense? A drunk driving conviction 14 years earlier. My one and only. Am I angry? Yes, at the time, I was furious. Who wouldn’t be? Do I think they were wrong? No. Absolutely not. That’s the law and its their country.

Takuan

we will see what changes now.

The Fatherland Security was also instituted to MAKE SURE Americans traveling abroad were met with angry revenge treatment. This discourages mingling with other tribes and makes it easier to get the approval of the people to bomb the shit out of those
Others.

arkizzle

#153

Yeah, I tried to get Micronesia on board, but there are so many disparate regions, it was hard to get a concensus :p

Takuan

http://ferdyonfilms.com/GONY%201.jpg

cmtullis

Pls kp n mnd tht r gvrnmnt hr n th ‘Stts s n lngr gvrnmnt “. . .f th ppl, by th ppl, nd fr th ppl. . .” Rthr, t hs chngd frm cnstttnl rpblc t n ncnstttnl lgrchy wth sntrs nd cngrssmn bng lctd vr nd vr gn t th sm ffc ntl t pprs tht thy hv hld tht ffc fr lf. Ths r th ppl wh cntrl r gvrnmnt nd thy hv dtrmnd tht thy wsh t strngly nfrc plcs rgrdng ntrnc nt r ntn by dnyng ntrnc t r ntn t ths wh wld brfly vst rltv nd thn rtrn t thr wn shrs, whl lkng wy nd llwng ntld hndrds-f-thsnds (nd vn mllns by sm stmts) f LLGL mmgrnts t nvd r ntn frm th sth. ntld mrcn jbs hv bn lst t ths llgl lns (r gvrnmnt crrntly ss th pltclly crrct trm “ndcmntd wrkrs”) nd ths crrntly hldng pwr n th lgsltv bds f r gvrnmnt wsh t grnt mnsty t ths “nvdrs” wh wld tk jbs wy frm r wn lgl ctzns ftr hvng brkn r lws nd rdnncs t gt crss th brdr t r ntn n th frst plc.

Pls d nt fl ffndd by th rn-f-th-mll mrcn fr ths slp n th fc t n f yr wn ntnls. r gvrnmnt hs n rspct fr ts wn ctzns ny lngr, s hw cn n xpct tht thy shld hv ny rspct fr th ctzns f ths ntns wh hv lng bn r lls?

Sdly, s ths trnd ncrsng vn mr ndr th nw bm dmnstrtn. t pprs tht ths nw dmnstrtn s mr cncrnd bt “rchng t” t ths rg ntns nd trrrst grps thn t s n rwrdng ths wh hv std by s thrgh “thck-nd-thn”.

Fr mrcns, th Rpblc fds nd s lynchd by n nrly mb cnsstng f th msss f th ndctd. Th vrg mrcn ctzn s mr “ndctrntd” ths dys thn “dctd.” S pls dn’t xpct nythng tht th mrcn gvrnmnt ds n th nxt fw yrs t mk ny sns whtsvr. W r dng r bst t g th wy f th Rmn mpr.

Ths fw f s lft, wh trly lng fr frdm nd lbrty, plgz fr th thghtlssnss f r brthrn nd hw thy hv mstrtd th ctzns f r dr lls.

emmajune

nvlst nd prsmd jrnlst f crs shld knw th mnng f wrds. th vrly drmtc s f ‘strvd’ (y mght wnt t rfr t dctnry hr) my hlp nct sm ppl, bt clrly shws bs tht ndrmns whtvr pnt y try t mk.

Man On Pink Corner

154 Takuan:

you know Antinous, I think we need to establish a private Chamber of Horrors and Postings Sewer. Somewhere where the filtered crap can be kept apart and shown on occasion to those that need convincing that toxic bile really does exist.

I like that idea a lot. Replace the comment with a hyperlink — something like Click to view comment removed from thread due to TOS violation. That would demote the comment while disrupting the thread less than disemvowellment would. You can put an age/content warning on an intermediate page if you like. People who insist on reading everything from Nazi literature to the backs of cereal boxes can indulge themselves, and respond to the comment if they feel they must. Nobody would be left wondering about the mods’ biases or hidden agendas.

I can’t see any drawbacks to Takuan’s idea, apart from the implementation work it might take.

arkizzle

“Questioned, patted-down and search their luggage – that is not unreasonable..”

Not unreasonable for what? For not being a criminal? Not a terrorist?
If “Questioned, patted-down and search[ed]” was all that happened, this would not have made the news. They were detained and unreasonably returned to Australia, $6400 out of pocket and unable to see the man’s dying relative.

“They were taken to a hotel – Cory left that out of his list of activities that transpired.”

Did you miss this line: “They were then taken to a hotel with other detainees at 2.30am..”

“Those SOBs at C & BP kept the kids with their parents..”

You don’t know that. Nowhere does it state that the kids and parents were kept together. Likely they were, but you don’t have enough information to question the parent’s emotional reactions.

> Mr Rabbi says that when he explained he was in the US
> to visit his father, the officers threatened him.
“Because, as we all know, a foreign national attempting to relocate his family in the US illegally would say so if asked by a C & BP official…”

But that deserves threats? Based on no other evidence than a hunch..? If there is nothing to indicate the family’s untoward intentions, how are threats the next course of action?

“A caged van strains the definition of being caged pretty far. These people were in detention, and they were moved in a secure van..”

1. A box or inclosure, wholly or partly of openwork, in wood or metal, used for confining birds or other animals.

Seems pretty accurate to me. You seem to prefer the sanitized ‘in detention’. Both are accurate, but one is conveying the indignity of the situation and disgust at the tactics, whereas the other tries to minimise the suffering of the family and associate them with criminals deserving of this treatment.

“Return ticket?”

Wow, looks like you’ve really got their number here. You should go get a job with Border Services.

“Minimal food is not the same as starving them. I’ll bet..”

Yeah, you can say that, but since they are in detention and in the care of the state they should have been adequetly fed – to the standard of prisoners at least – sounds like three meals to me, not “a few biscuits”. And to try and light-heartedly compare this to airline food is just disingenuous.

Tom Hale

Fatherland Security? – Takuan, if you keep spreading that kind of attitude people will be bringing fingernail clippers and bottles of shampoo aboard airplanes again – and we all know what kind of chaos that may lead to. Shame on You.

noen

“what does the FSM say about Toblerone?”

That it’s a delicious after diner snack? Don’t be hatin’ on no Swiss chocolate you… you… pastafarians! The great Goddess of Tobe may smite thee and dip thee in her holy confection. Better watch it or we’ll be having chocolate covered tentacles for desert.

Takuan

and I’m all for it too, but like you say: who wants to pay for it in terms of resources and karmic taint?

It’s about trust in the end. If I put a manipulator on your chest and say “Don’t go in there.”, is it enough for you?

BingoTheChimp

@#40

Americans have forgotten (or are in the process of forgetting) all the beautiful principles that the nation was founded on.

Your statement is understandable, but a reality-check is in order:

First and foremost, please don’t let the actions of a wrong-headed minority color your opinion of all U.S. Citizens. There are lots and lots of us — maybe even 40% of the population — who are repulsed by the anti-civil liberty policies of our government. Unfortunately, we are outnumbered by the other 60% who either support those policies or (more commonly) have no critical thinking skills, relying on what they get from TV.

Second, at the risk of sounding cynical, I don’t for a minute believe that the U.S. was ever as altruistic as you suggest. Every period of our history has been marred by severe injustice of some sort: slavery, Native American policies, Monroe Doctrine, jingoism, anti-Catholic, anti-Jew, anti-women, Jim Crow, forced Chinese labor, brutal anti-union policies, Japanese internment, blacklisting, CIA-orchestrated coups….whew.

Having said that, I challenge anyone on this thread to accept personal responsibility for their country’s worst episodes and simply allow themselves to be stereotyped based on that.

The Bush administration has been worst than most, and I understand the reflex to stereotype Americans according to our most visible representatives. But that is simply repeating the behavior you are (justly) condemning.

Keppoch #171 is the worst example of continuing this cycle: he is personally stereotyping individuals he is communicating with on this post as a misguided response to the “many Americans” he finds at fault. Howzabout you direct your outrage to the appropriate individuals, instead of rejecting the solidarity of someone who agrees with you, but happens to be American?

arkizzle

“Frankly, I’m glad to hear that the U.S. turns people away occasionally.”

But for no reason? You are making the problem, right here.

Takuan

“hand”, “hand”. (bloody primates)

Lab Monkey

I think i’ll be making my next flight Sydney to Tokyo, return.

Baldhead

I’ve encountered similar thinking- though I wasn’t sent back, you could tell the guy was trying really, really hard to find a way to do so. And I’m a white Canadian. I think they must stress the idea that the US is the best place to live and all other countries are full of people trying to sneak in. Never mind that there’s quite a few countries as good as or better, with just about none of their citizens trying to sneak into the US.

Modusoperandi

It’s good to know that they’re finally cracking down on the Aussies. I hear that the Canucks are next. Take that, rest of world!

0xdeadbeef

Occams’ effin’ razor… when customs has demonstrated a pattern of incompetence and complete disregard for human rights, you assume the worst.

Tom Hale

To everyone worried about certain words used in the headline, the family was treated rudely and disrespectfully. If you’re going to let the word “starved,” keep you from acknowledging what happened, then your mind was probably made up on the matter before you read the article. For them to be denied entrance to the US because they may be attempting to illegally immigrate is total BS.

Modusoperandi

I can’t emphasize or repeat this enough: I, too, want a pony.

mdh

TSA and especially the Border Patrol (as reorganized by GWB under the HSA) are not about security from terrorism. It’s about convincing people America sucks so “they” stop tryin to come here. (This applies to Gitmo and Abu G. as well)

Theater directed to knock us down a few pegs so poorer people from around the world would stop trying to move here, and so people of concience move against us… so that then we DO have enemies to fear and to justify these expenditures.

All that said, every true American knows that Australians are entirely harmless. He must not have had his accent turned all the way up to ‘charming’.

some1

CRY DCTRW:
D y hv ny d wht n gly bt f ncnscs prjdc ths btrys?
N, bcs thr s n prjdc. Mslms cmmt nrly ll trrrsm n th wrld, nd thy d t n dly bss (nd mst f y nvr hr bt t bcs y dn’t py ttntn). Thy ls frqntly stg rts nd mply vlnc whnvr smn hrts thr prcs flngs, whch mns tht thy cn (nd d) g brsrk t ny tm fr ny rsn. dn’t rcll bngbng cvrng th < hrf="http://www.jhdwtch.rg/rchvs/024417.php" rl="nfllw">rts nd gncdl dmnstrtns (“kll ll Jws” tc.) tht fllwd prtn Cst Ld n svrl Wstrn cntrs sch s Brtn, Grmny, Nrwy, Cnd nd th S. Jws nd synggs wr ls ttckd n mny plcs. Mslms r ffth clmn t ny nfdl ntn bcs thy r nly lyl t thr Mslms. Tht mns tht f, sy, srl s bmbng Mslms smwhr, Mslms lvng n cntrs lk Brtn wll g psht.

(Tmthy McVgh)
Tht’s n gy vs. ~13,000 trrrst ttcks cndctd snc 9/11 (lw stmt).

(Th R)
Th R hs bn dsrmd. r y srsly xpctng thm t cndct trrrst ttcks n th S? Hstrclly spkng, th R ws shrt-lvd grp wth tmprl, pltcl gls. slmc trrrsm s trnl n ntr bcs t’s bsd n dvn cmmndmnt t wg wr gnst nfdls fr s lng s thy xst.

n thry nyn cld b trrrst, nd n thry w cld b ttckd by mrtns, bt Mslms r knwn thrt wth lng nd cnsstnt trck rcrd.

PLT:
Mslm s nt rc. Ths ws n ct f rcsm. thy wr dtnd bcs thy wr brwn, nthng mr, nthng lss.
nvr sd thy’r rc, nd ls dn’t blv tht thy wr dtnd bcs thy wr brwn. f tht ws th cs, ny brwn prsn ttmptng t ntr th S wld b dtnd. dn’t knw why thy wr dtnd, bt dn’t s ny rsn t blv tht t ws rcl ss.

Nt ll Mslms r trrrsts
Nt ll trrrsts r Mslms
nvr sd thy r. Y’r rgng gnst clms tht nbdy hs md.

ny dt wh qts th tw s dng mr hrm thn thr gnrnc llws thm t s.
‘m nt qtng thm, thy’r qtng thmslvs. f Mslms ddn’t cmmt s mny trrrst ttcks nd gv s mch spprt t trrrsm nd slmfscsm n gnrl, nbdy wld b sspcs f thm.

Ppl lk y r th prblm, nt ths gys.
Trrrsts rn’t th prblm, bt ppl wh tlk bt thm r? Yh, tht mks sns.

RBLS:
Thy wrn’t rfsd ntry bcs f ny sspcn f trrrsm. Yr ssssmnt f thr trrrst stts bsd n thr pht nd yr gss s t thr rlgn s rcst n mttr wht th rslt.
hd n d slm s rc. Prhps y r th rcst hr, fr trnng ths nt rc ss fr n rsn? nywy, my ssssmnt s bsd n prbblty: Mslms r mr lkly t b trrrsts thn nyn ls. Snc ths gys dn’t ppr t b Mslms (r vn Mddl-strn, bt ‘m nt ntrly sr bt tht), thr’s n rsn t thnk tht thy cld b trrrsts r cnnctd t trrrsm.

NN:
Th gy thnks Rdny Kng hd t cmng t hm. Nc t s th GP bs stll clngng t tht nchr nd rdng t ll th wy t th bttm f th cn.
H ld th plc n chs, ssltd ffcrs, rsstd rrst, pprd t b hgh n PCP nd wldn’t g dwn ftr tw hts frm tsr. Ys, h hd t cmng.

Anonymous

When I was 25 years old, crossing back from Canada (from Vancouver, B.C.) on an Am-Track bus on my way back home to Eugene, Oregon, the border guards, located at the Washington State border pulled me aside and challenged my citizenship.

They said I had a ‘weird’ accent and looked like I was from South America. Actually, I spent several years in the Southern United States, Parisburg Virginia, and I am Jewish/Irish on one side and Welsh/Native American/Mexican-Jewish on the other. At the time, I was 26 years old.

It was 1995 — not 2005.

Just another American if you know what I mean. Melting Pot and all of that.

So, they searched my stuff and found a bunch of books in other languages — Spanish, Romanian, Hebrew, French, Italian, Hungarian and German. The reason I was visiting Vancouver B.C. was to visit my then girl-friend who’s father was a retired professor who was a resident in Eugene during the school year. He read/spoke these languages, was eccentric, and asked me to take this suitcase full of books back to Eugene. I was happy to do it for him because, well, I was his daughter’s boyfriend and he liked me. Don’t look a gift-horse in the mouth don’t-you-know.

Anyway, for the next hour and a half they grilled me in various languages, well actually in very broken German and fair Spanish, which didnâ€™t help my schedule much as I could understand both. They seemed not to be serious — just passing the time. It was interesting, because one of the border agent’s uniform’s had duct-tape repairs on the shoulder and cuff. (I heard dueling-banjos in my mind’s ear when I noticed this.) This was in contrast to the Canadian border inspectors uniforms which looked like cruise ship uniforms. The Canadian border patrol even helped people with their baggage â€“ with a smile.

Finally, they let me get back on the bus — which was detained while it was searched, all on account of me being detained. The other passengers where quite peeved at me. It was a long two hours to Seattle where I caught the Am-Track train back to Eugene. Of course, by the time we got there everyone on the bus had to wait another six hours for the next train to Eugene having been delayed by the ever on-the-toes Washington State border guards.

Anyway, just a bit of anecdote to the U.S. border/customs thing. In any case, Iâ€™m glad it happened — it is a great story to tell people at cocktail parties and on online message boards.

Cheers!

Gilbert Wham

@ #9:A possible line of attack against this kind of bollocks would be making that kind of thing known to, say, Disneycorp, airlines, large hotel chains and other tourist industries. Write to their CEOs and explain why you’re not giving them your business. If enough people did it for it to be noticeable, then lobbyists will sure as shit start to lobby. Shit, if you could affect Vegas’s bottom line, Homeland Security/TSA/Border Goons would be reined in quicker than you could blink.

Well, I can dream, can’t I?

Modusoperandi

Takuan “in time, historians, sociologists, others will look back at the Bush Interregnum and define it as the death of dialog.”
I see it more as an attempt to substitute reality with ideology. For example to BushCo, Saddam did do 9/11. To them, that reality only conflicted with the predrawn conclusion wasn’t the ideology’s fault, it was reality’s. Similar can be said for virtually all of the programs of absolutists (the solution to the consistent failure of abstinence-only sex-ed is to fail harder…conservatism never fails because those who fail aren’t True Conservatives…the solution to the mad swings of laissez faire/quasi-laissez faire is less oversight…the solution to the 1,000,000 people on the littered with false positives no-fly list is to add more names…etc)

WA “Unfortunately, this leads to a situation where many people assume the worst, and that affects the image of Customs quite severely.”
When I ask an authority why something is “procedure” and the reply is “because it’s procedure”, it no longer matters whether he’s doing it in good faith or bad. When someone needs something that falls outside the handbook (like, oh I don’t know, a meal because their being held), and their pleas are ignored because “it’s not in the handbook”, the authority isn’t trying to do anything except cover his ass.
When that authority’s boss does the same things for the same reasons, enough links in the chain are rotten that the whole system must be rethought before it collapses under its own callousness.
…
Power without transparency or oversight (or poor oversight) is a license for abuse.

An authority without empathy is not an authority to be respected; at best it is one to be pitied. At worst, feared.

arkizzle

Noen, the Toblerone Accord spreads to all manner of creatures and beliefs. Come, take a chocolatey triangle in the spirit of interspecies solidarity!

Takuan

Yap’s in Micronesia, think giant chocolate coins.

Teresa Nielsen Hayden / Community Manager

Oh, you done good and you know it.

My godfather has reminded me of some non-Muslim terrorists I forgot, though I don’t guarantee they all meet the twenty-year rule: Christian Identity, the KKK and all its spinoffs, the Aryan Brotherhood, ELA, FARC, FMLN, FPMR, the Khmer Rouge, the November 17 Movement, the Ulster Volunteer Force, the Loyalist Volunteer Force (who think the Ulster Volunteer Force is soft on popery), the Red Hand Defenders (who think the Loyalist Volunteer Force is soft on popery), and … y’know, I’m not even going to try for a complete collection of Irish factions. Any time a terrorist or revolutionary movement drags itself over the line into respectability, you know it’s going to be shedding splinters and factions and embarrassing allies all the way there.

Takuan

in time, historians, sociologists, others will look back at the Bush Interregnum and define it as the death of dialog. The extinguishing of common sense by mindless, bullying, petty officialdom that stomped on the faces of people just trying to talk to each other.

Modusoperandi

Lastly, they work for us, not the other way around.

Tom Hale

SOME1, you’ll learn to tone down that sort of attitude after a while – give it a month or two. What you’ve described is Racial Profiling – and its wrong.

Xopher

Wow, I go away for a week and miss someone blatantly trolling, with racism and religious bigotry and all, and defending racial profiling. If only I’d been here.

And yet another person coming in and saying the same damn thing about DVing that we’ve heard nine billion times before. Why aren’t such things automatically disemvowelled? I mean, how often do we have to hear that?

jackie31337

Modusoperandi @201 I can, however, offer you a piece of Toblerone. I know that it’s a poor substitute, but on the positive side, it’s Toblerone.

Thanks for the imaginary Toblerone, but I think your imaginary wife needs it more than I do. ;)

Australian family caged, detained, starved and deported by US customs

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