We haven’t had a viable Left/Right choice since Eugene V. Debs was in prison. It’s been almost a hundred years of Right/Right choice. The Dems and the GOPs are the two Right wings of our single-party system — The Capitalist Party; and it rules supreme. Their battlefield is actually where they divvy up the loot. As we know, thieves fall out. Every four years we watch them quarrel over the swag. It has taken a more dramatic turn recently than at any other time since the Civil War, since one of the parties is clearly insane.

Obama is not himself insane, and I truly believe he is trying to do what FDR did: to rescue and save the Capitalist system from collapse and ruin. Whether he gets away with it or not is the question. Nobody is giving odds, either way.

Old curse: “May you live in interesting times.”

Consider – at this point, the Obama crew has not even been in place a *month* yet, following onto the most secretive administrations ever. There’s a *really* good chance that the poor lawyers who had to make a response didn’t even know *what* the previous ‘state secrets’ claim actually covered. And they can always *drop* the claim later, once they’ve vetted the materials – but if you drop it *now* before you’ve sorted it all out, you may be opening a can of worms.

Consider – the records almost certainly include stuff that *is* secret, like the names of contacts and agents under cover. As bad as the whole mess is, do you *really* want another Valerie Plame incident where somebody’s cover is blown – but this time not for political gain, but just because we dropped the state secret claim before vetting what we were releasing?

This isn’t as clear-cut as most people wish it were.

#84 POSTED BY ITSUMISHI,
“Consistency in argument FAIL

Did you even read the quotes from you I put in my post? One second you’re saying there has to be a way for people to get information out of soldiers and mentioning torture, the next minute you’re saying you oppose torture completely.

So which is it? You think they should be allowed to torture as long as it’s only a little bit. Or you’re completely against it?

For what it’s worth, the best movie I ever saw about the usefulness of torture was this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtOutxGJK5o

“torture” is not a “third party” related issue.

I am certain GIVEN TIME this will be addressed. People need to chill out and give the man some space.

the case was not a matter of national security interests, but one of “avoiding being embarrassed by obvious violation of human rights rules”.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7878343.stm

Oh and I’m on record as stating that Obama was just another politico back in the beginning of December

http://www.boingboing.net/2008/12/02/principles-for-open.html#comment-344066

Yes, I know sleep deprivation, and psychological torture is STILL torture. There has to be some way to get information from people that our government consider a threat.

Thx minT – I’m completely against torture. If the U.S. is treating anyone in an inhumane manner it should be stopped.

Consistency in argument FAIL.

You honestly believe that the U.S Government hasn’t approved or known very well that U.S soldiers and CIA operatives have tortured the absolute shit out of people? I’m not talking about water boarding (although that is CERTAINLY torture). I’m talking about pouring oil down throats, electrodes all over naked skin, beatings, sodomy, stress positions, etc, etc.

You name it they’ve done it.

Perhaps after the hundreds more decisions that are coming down the pike much like this one, the American people will realise that politics is not a personality game, and that the evils they perpetrate are endemic to the system they espouse, and there is no electable white knight who will ever manage to truly do Good within that system.

And an asteroid is on a collision course wtih the earth and the only way to stop it is to torture some retired, angry NASA scientists and a few maverick oil drilling experts, and if we don’t torture them, then the entire world is destroyed, won’t you let us torture people then?

This is “absurdist redonkulous torture justification theater”, isn’t it?

I can invent any number of hypothetical scenarios that would leave as the only option the complete suspension of rule of law, but what the fawk does that have to do with reality?

Once you start going down the path of totally hypothetical sitiations, you get sucked into designing your national security decisions based on movie plots. In short, we should stick with reality.

I’m not certain I even recognise what some people here call living. I’d call it existing. In fear.

What argument? I didn’t come here for an argument. I don’t believe the level of torture you mention has been condoned by government higher ups.

That’s about all I can find to say about this.

http://www.warhw.com/2009/02/13/war-forgiveness-and-obama/

I can invent any number of hypothetical scenarios that would leave as the only option the complete suspension of rule of law, but what the fawk does that have to do with reality?”

Unfortunately for reality, “one agent’s cover blown compromises other agents” isn’t a “hypothetical” situation, it’s a constant and major worry for all intelligence services that use undercover agents.

And I’m not arguing in favor of “ticking time bomb torture theater” – I’m arguing that maybe it’s a bad idea to drop the ‘state secret’ claim before the new team has a chance to vet the materials that would be released if we dropped it.

Yes, it *would* be nice if they dropped the claim and released all the info – but if the released info ends up compromising *other* operations, things get sticky….

I’m not cynical enough to think our government would detain people just for kicks. I’m always going to place my country’s security over the rights of a few people that the government knows or suspects may be a danger to the U.S. I’m sorry, but that’s just how I feel. Also, I really don’t believe our government would allow those detained to be tortured. At least “torture” the way most people view it – bamboo slivers under fingernails, electrical torture, rape, beatings, etc.

Yes, I know sleep deprivation, and psychological torture is STILL torture. There has to be some way to get information from people that our government consider a threat. Are there more humane ways to get info from those detained?

It didn’t even happen on your watch! Save some face for us all and come clean now, so that history books get an accurate account of what happened, and the nation as a whole can move on without making the same bad decisions in the future.