Comments on: Clay Shirky Debunks the WSJ's "Bloggers For Hire" Feature http://boingboing.net/2009/04/30/clay-shirky-debunks.html Brain candy for Happy Mutants Mon, 20 May 2013 14:50:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: Moriarty http://boingboing.net/2009/04/30/clay-shirky-debunks.html#comment-479489 Moriarty Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-479489 Would it be overly rude to ask you fatcats what kind of revenue Boing Boing takes in? Would it be overly rude to ask you fatcats what kind of revenue Boing Boing takes in?

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/04/30/clay-shirky-debunks.html#comment-481029 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-481029 What a beautiful crushing of idiocy. Thanks, Clay and Xeni! What a beautiful crushing of idiocy. Thanks, Clay and Xeni!

]]> By: Big Ed Dunkel http://boingboing.net/2009/04/30/clay-shirky-debunks.html#comment-480009 Big Ed Dunkel Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-480009 Naysayers. I've found a way to make money as a writer, paid steadily. You have to work for it. As somebody above said, ". .. nothing I'd do were it not something I loved". Or even better, as the crippled Big Lebowski said, "My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose." Naysayers. I’ve found a way to make money as a writer, paid steadily. You have to work for it. As somebody above said, “. .. nothing I’d do were it not something I loved”. Or even better, as the crippled Big Lebowski said, “My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose.”

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/04/30/clay-shirky-debunks.html#comment-480021 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-480021 @Anonymous, April 30, 2009 2:17 PM Certainly you must "bring in even a fraction of $75k/year". A small fraction is still a fraction.. @Anonymous, April 30, 2009 2:17 PM

Certainly you must “bring in even a fraction of $75k/year”. A small fraction is still a fraction..

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/04/30/clay-shirky-debunks.html#comment-479519 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-479519 whew. that's a lot of words to say: "i believe the columnist confuses mean with median." did you reach out to penn/zalesne for a response? i'd be interested if they ack their mistake or have a counterargument. whew. that’s a lot of words to say: “i believe the columnist confuses mean with median.”

did you reach out to penn/zalesne for a response? i’d be interested if they ack their mistake or have a counterargument.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/04/30/clay-shirky-debunks.html#comment-479776 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-479776 I bet that Cory, David, Mark and Xeni make a 'living' from their blogging, as long as you define 'living' as subsistence! However, other than them and a few very-high-profile others, it's not enough to eat! The "weasel words" involved in this article are particularly telling -- 'primary income' from blogging actually translates to unemployed. After all, if you're flat broke, isn't $10/week begging your primary income? Also, the tendency to present exceptional examples to protect the elite, and suppression of genuine mathematical analysis of population and economics, is breathtaking in both its oppression and brazen disregard of human needs. Notwithstanding, the MO of the American finance industry. (You know, those guys who got billions from taxpayers who lost their homes anyway?) I bet that Cory, David, Mark and Xeni make a ‘living’ from their blogging, as long as you define ‘living’ as subsistence!

However, other than them and a few very-high-profile others, it’s not enough to eat!

The “weasel words” involved in this article are particularly telling — ‘primary income’ from blogging actually translates to unemployed. After all, if you’re flat broke, isn’t $10/week begging your primary income?

Also, the tendency to present exceptional examples to protect the elite, and suppression of genuine mathematical analysis of population and economics, is breathtaking in both its oppression and brazen disregard of human needs. Notwithstanding, the MO of the American finance industry. (You know, those guys who got billions from taxpayers who lost their homes anyway?)

]]> By: Miss Cellania http://boingboing.net/2009/04/30/clay-shirky-debunks.html#comment-479526 Miss Cellania Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-479526 I make my living by blogging, but the $200 a year figure is about right for MY blog. In order to get by, I also work for FOUR other bigger sites. And I'm not getting rich by any means. I knew the article was BS, since even the people who pay me have other jobs. I make my living by blogging, but the $200 a year figure is about right for MY blog. In order to get by, I also work for FOUR other bigger sites. And I’m not getting rich by any means. I knew the article was BS, since even the people who pay me have other jobs.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/04/30/clay-shirky-debunks.html#comment-480301 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-480301 Compare and contrast http://www.boingboing.net/2008/03/04/howto-earn-an-artist.html Compare and contrast

http://www.boingboing.net/2008/03/04/howto-earn-an-artist.html

]]> By: bklynchris http://boingboing.net/2009/04/30/clay-shirky-debunks.html#comment-479538 bklynchris Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-479538 Man, I love Clay Shirkey....the thinking person's Malcom Gladwell (hope I did not insult Mr. Shirkey with the comparison). Mr/s. Moriarty, I too am interested, but would like to see that in a graph over time. What say you it is beginning to resemble a bell curve? No, jk ; P But so few of us are "unique" anymore. Man, I love Clay Shirkey….the thinking person’s Malcom Gladwell (hope I did not insult Mr. Shirkey with the comparison).

Mr/s. Moriarty, I too am interested, but would like to see that in a graph over time. What say you it is beginning to resemble a bell curve? No, jk ; P

But so few of us are “unique” anymore.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/04/30/clay-shirky-debunks.html#comment-479797 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-479797 I have been a fairly prominent paid blogger; given its pay scale, I don't see how I could have made more than about $15,000/year doing full-time work for the well-known company I wrote for. There are people doing better working behind the scenes, but not many of them, and they don't usually do the actual blogging itself. I have been a fairly prominent paid blogger; given its pay scale, I don’t see how I could have made more than about $15,000/year doing full-time work for the well-known company I wrote for. There are people doing better working behind the scenes, but not many of them, and they don’t usually do the actual blogging itself.

]]> By: chroma http://boingboing.net/2009/04/30/clay-shirky-debunks.html#comment-479581 chroma Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-479581 I know that it's considered rude to ask, but it's relevant in this case. How much do the Boing Boing bloggers make? Do guest bloggers get paid? I know that it’s considered rude to ask, but it’s relevant in this case. How much do the Boing Boing bloggers make? Do guest bloggers get paid?

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/04/30/clay-shirky-debunks.html#comment-479841 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-479841 I have ~225k monthly uniques on a 2.5 year old blog with only me and 2 volunteer writers, and I can assure you, I don't bring in even a fraction of $75k/year. If I did, I wouldn't be blogging - I'd be paying my writers and taking fun trips. And yes, I have adsense, as well as several direct advertisers. I have ~225k monthly uniques on a 2.5 year old blog with only me and 2 volunteer writers, and I can assure you, I don’t bring in even a fraction of $75k/year. If I did, I wouldn’t be blogging – I’d be paying my writers and taking fun trips.

And yes, I have adsense, as well as several direct advertisers.

]]> By: m2key http://boingboing.net/2009/04/30/clay-shirky-debunks.html#comment-479602 m2key Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-479602 Any article with Mark Penn as author more appropriately belongs in the Wal-Mart Street Journal..... Any article with Mark Penn as author more appropriately belongs in the Wal-Mart Street Journal…..

]]> By: Ryan http://boingboing.net/2009/04/30/clay-shirky-debunks.html#comment-479605 Ryan Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-479605 Also a writer and paid blogger here. I devote about 20 hours a week to my site, which in turn nets me about 20% of my yearly income, and that's before taxes, so the actual profit is waaaaaay lower. It's not a sweet deal financially, and nothing I'd do were it not something I loved. Also a writer and paid blogger here. I devote about 20 hours a week to my site, which in turn nets me about 20% of my yearly income, and that’s before taxes, so the actual profit is waaaaaay lower. It’s not a sweet deal financially, and nothing I’d do were it not something I loved.

]]> By: Rezpect http://boingboing.net/2009/04/30/clay-shirky-debunks.html#comment-479610 Rezpect Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-479610 I knew that this "2 Million Bloggers making a living from their blogs" report was total BS as soon as I read it. I write a pop culture and music blog that gets about 1,000 unique visitors a day, but it generates virtually zero income, even from those Google ads you see everywhere. And if Miss Cellania is chiming in that it's BS then you have to believe her, because that lady is EVERYWHERE. I think that to really generate income as an "independent" blogger, you have to be selling a product of some kind and also be selling ads to vendors who pay you to blog about their items. The only blogger I know of who makes any kind of a living from his blog is Frank over at the OMG Blog, who has the Gay market niche down. Good for him. I knew that this “2 Million Bloggers making a living from their blogs” report was total BS as soon as I read it. I write a pop culture and music blog that gets about 1,000 unique visitors a day, but it generates virtually zero income, even from those Google ads you see everywhere. And if Miss Cellania is chiming in that it’s BS then you have to believe her, because that lady is EVERYWHERE. I think that to really generate income as an “independent” blogger, you have to be selling a product of some kind and also be selling ads to vendors who pay you to blog about their items. The only blogger I know of who makes any kind of a living from his blog is Frank over at the OMG Blog, who has the Gay market niche down. Good for him.

]]> By: fxq http://boingboing.net/2009/04/30/clay-shirky-debunks.html#comment-479650 fxq Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-479650 Don't get me wrong, I like Shirky's screeds, but he could have saved a whole bunch o time if he just wrote: Mark Penn wrote something about blogs on the WSJ. Bwahahahahahahahah! Don’t get me wrong, I like Shirky’s screeds, but he could have saved a whole bunch o time if he just wrote:

Mark Penn wrote something about blogs on the WSJ. Bwahahahahahahahah!

]]> By: Praline http://boingboing.net/2009/04/30/clay-shirky-debunks.html#comment-479668 Praline Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-479668 Ahh, 'tis a sweet and frabjous day when Boing Boing pwns the Journal. Thank you Xeni & Clay for so handily dispatching that steaming mound of humbug. I bask in the sublime sunshine of your truth.... Ahh, ’tis a sweet and frabjous day when Boing Boing pwns the Journal. Thank you Xeni & Clay for so handily dispatching that steaming mound of humbug. I bask in the sublime sunshine of your truth….

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/04/30/clay-shirky-debunks.html#comment-479669 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-479669 Nice article. I'm a little saddened the editors at the WSJ didn't raise a higher eye brown at this. It seems badly reported. I think there is a bigger issue here and that is the career path of the modern day journalist. Blogs that are businesses (like Engadget, etc.) and do hire full-time staff are hiring a constantly rotating stream of 20-somethings for low wages that are fine for just-out-of-college grads, but not for people entering their 30s and starting families, etc. The business model of media-outlets is turning journalism into hobby, not a sustainable career and I find that frightening. When I started out ten years ago as a writer I learned a great deal from older, more experienced writers. Now, the respect for that is diminishing—don't get me started on the importance of the editor/writer relationship. I have watched these great people leave the industry one-by-one because media outlets both online and off do not want to pay them a livable wage (and, no, they are not expecting six-figure salaries). And I'm not talking about people in their twilight years here, I mean folks in their late 30s and 40s. But NOBODY seems to want to talk about this. Everyone's head is in the sand. The New York Times just won a bunch of Pulitzers, but is going bankrupt at the same time. Meanwhile, blogs rip off their stories and practically take the credit. Who will they link to when the people actually leaving their house and doing real interviews not longer can stay in business? We cannot expect a quality flow of information in a world of only part-time journalists. I don't mean to get down on blogs, I love them! I just worry about what their affect on what was once a real career. Nice article. I’m a little saddened the editors at the WSJ didn’t raise a higher eye brown at this. It seems badly reported.

I think there is a bigger issue here and that is the career path of the modern day journalist. Blogs that are businesses (like Engadget, etc.) and do hire full-time staff are hiring a constantly rotating stream of 20-somethings for low wages that are fine for just-out-of-college grads, but not for people entering their 30s and starting families, etc. The business model of media-outlets is turning journalism into hobby, not a sustainable career and I find that frightening.

When I started out ten years ago as a writer I learned a great deal from older, more experienced writers. Now, the respect for that is diminishing—don’t get me started on the importance of the editor/writer relationship. I have watched these great people leave the industry one-by-one because media outlets both online and off do not want to pay them a livable wage (and, no, they are not expecting six-figure salaries). And I’m not talking about people in their twilight years here, I mean folks in their late 30s and 40s.

But NOBODY seems to want to talk about this. Everyone’s head is in the sand. The New York Times just won a bunch of Pulitzers, but is going bankrupt at the same time. Meanwhile, blogs rip off their stories and practically take the credit. Who will they link to when the people actually leaving their house and doing real interviews not longer can stay in business? We cannot expect a quality flow of information in a world of only part-time journalists.

I don’t mean to get down on blogs, I love them! I just worry about what their affect on what was once a real career.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/04/30/clay-shirky-debunks.html#comment-479414 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-479414 Thank you for this, seriously. As a professional writer who gets paid to blog occasionally and on the side, I laughed so hard when I read the WSJ piece that I almost peed my pants. Who are these people blogging full time, anyway? Aside from a few lucky and prestigious, much of the content out there (that folks are getting paid to write) is total junk. I'd rather blog for free than write what someone expects me to write. Thank you for this, seriously. As a professional writer who gets paid to blog occasionally and on the side, I laughed so hard when I read the WSJ piece that I almost peed my pants. Who are these people blogging full time, anyway? Aside from a few lucky and prestigious, much of the content out there (that folks are getting paid to write) is total junk.

I’d rather blog for free than write what someone expects me to write.

]]> By: Brainspore http://boingboing.net/2009/04/30/clay-shirky-debunks.html#comment-479419 Brainspore Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-479419 Give it up, Xeni. We all know you're secretly making millions in sweet BoingBoing cash. Did you really think we'd believe a "debunking" story posted by <em>bloggers?</em> Give it up, Xeni. We all know you’re secretly making millions in sweet BoingBoing cash. Did you really think we’d believe a “debunking” story posted by bloggers?

]]> By: Xeni Jardin http://boingboing.net/2009/04/30/clay-shirky-debunks.html#comment-479427 Xeni Jardin Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-479427 Hey Brainspore, where I was I supposed to PayPal your hush money again? Hey Brainspore, where I was I supposed to PayPal your hush money again?

]]> By: urshrew http://boingboing.net/2009/04/30/clay-shirky-debunks.html#comment-479428 urshrew Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-479428 The newest threat to America, next to swine flu: Paid Bloggers. The newest threat to America, next to swine flu: Paid Bloggers.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/04/30/clay-shirky-debunks.html#comment-480969 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-480969 Good Lord - so the WSJ basically allowed the authors of a book to create out of whole cloth the supposedly-lucrative "trend" their book is about? How is this any different from the Journal donating adspace to Penn and what's-'is-face to hawk their wares? I think this sort of journalistic shenanigan is far more dangerous to the WSJ than to other newspapers, simply because the Journal's insistence on maintaining a demonstrably-batshit editorial board for <i>decades</i> already calls their judgement and integrity into question. A few more "mistakes" like this, and people will realize that it isn't just the banks on Wall Street that are an Enron waiting to happen. Good Lord – so the WSJ basically allowed the authors of a book to create out of whole cloth the supposedly-lucrative “trend” their book is about? How is this any different from the Journal donating adspace to Penn and what’s-’is-face to hawk their wares?

I think this sort of journalistic shenanigan is far more dangerous to the WSJ than to other newspapers, simply because the Journal’s insistence on maintaining a demonstrably-batshit editorial board for decades already calls their judgement and integrity into question. A few more “mistakes” like this, and people will realize that it isn’t just the banks on Wall Street that are an Enron waiting to happen.

]]> By: kkennedy http://boingboing.net/2009/04/30/clay-shirky-debunks.html#comment-479703 kkennedy Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-479703 Great response...but I can't find a permanlink at shirky.com...srsly! Am I just missing it? Perhaps a "latest" section (and a RSS feed for something other than "Here Comes Everybody") would be a good idea... Great response…but I can’t find a permanlink at shirky.com…srsly! Am I just missing it? Perhaps a “latest” section (and a RSS feed for something other than “Here Comes Everybody”) would be a good idea…

]]> By: Soundscout http://boingboing.net/2009/04/30/clay-shirky-debunks.html#comment-479452 Soundscout Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-479452 As a blogger hoping to make a living out of it someday, that article made me heart sink. As a blogger hoping to make a living out of it someday, that article made me heart sink.

]]> By: kkennedy http://boingboing.net/2009/04/30/clay-shirky-debunks.html#comment-479710 kkennedy Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-479710 Doh! I guess this page is permalink. *grin* OK, that works. Doh! I guess this page is permalink. *grin* OK, that works.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/04/30/clay-shirky-debunks.html#comment-479457 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-479457 That's the same Mark Penn managed the Clinton presidential campaign. We know how that one turned out. That’s the same Mark Penn managed the Clinton presidential campaign. We know how that one turned out.

]]> By: mamamel http://boingboing.net/2009/04/30/clay-shirky-debunks.html#comment-481257 mamamel Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-481257 There are a lot of points of view written here on the forum. There are thousands of bloggers trying to make money online every day. I still think it is hard to say what the average income would work out to. Many people are learning that one of the only ways to make good money from blogging is by either having numerous blogs, or blogs promoting affiliate products/programs combined with article marketing. If you do a pay per post blogging job you can earn some money but nowhere near enough to buy a home or anything of the sort. I have a few blogs, a few info products for sale, and do pay per post blogging. All combined allows me to say I make a living online as a blogger but none of them on their own would support my family. As long as the new beginner does not think they will get rich, or have visions of quitting their day job within a year, they will not be disappointed. I would still encourage others to blog for cash if they choose, especially staying focused on topics of interest. There are many ways you can add to your original blog site to increase your monthly income chances. You never know how well things will go unless you try. There are a lot of points of view written here on the forum. There are thousands of bloggers trying to make money online every day. I still think it is hard to say what the average income would work out to. Many people are learning that one of the only ways to make good money from blogging is by either having numerous blogs, or blogs promoting affiliate products/programs combined with article marketing.

If you do a pay per post blogging job you can earn some money but nowhere near enough to buy a home or anything of the sort.

I have a few blogs, a few info products for sale, and do pay per post blogging. All combined allows me to say I make a living online as a blogger but none of them on their own would support my family.

As long as the new beginner does not think they will get rich, or have visions of quitting their day job within a year, they will not be disappointed.

I would still encourage others to blog for cash if they choose, especially staying focused on topics of interest. There are many ways you can add to your original blog site to increase your monthly income chances. You never know how well things will go unless you try.

]]> By: voline http://boingboing.net/2009/04/30/clay-shirky-debunks.html#comment-480251 voline Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-480251 Let them quit their day jobs to blog. Anyone who believes Mark Penn, deserves the consequences. Let them quit their day jobs to blog. Anyone who believes Mark Penn, deserves the consequences.

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