Comments on: Fake DHS "photography license" for fake no-photos laws http://boingboing.net/2009/05/15/fake-dhs-photography.html Brain candy for Happy Mutants Thu, 20 Jun 2013 03:16:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: KeithIrwin http://boingboing.net/2009/05/15/fake-dhs-photography.html#comment-492806 KeithIrwin Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-492806 Out of curiosity, why would I need to put my name and address on this? It already has a name and address. It's not like I want to identify myself to the cops upon request. Out of curiosity, why would I need to put my name and address on this? It already has a name and address. It’s not like I want to identify myself to the cops upon request.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/05/15/fake-dhs-photography.html#comment-493062 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-493062 I'm also in favor of a modified version of this card, one that doesn't reference any real government entities. #33's got the right idea. Make it look real, but reference no real body. I feel that EFF / ACLU "endorsements" would not fool cops, they know who the ACLU is, generally despise them, and wouldn't care to respect its alleged authority anyways. Furthermore, probably having BoingBoing / EFF / ACLU endorsed passes of some type probably presents a liability problem for these orgs. I don't want any of them getting in trouble. So yeah, I have no design skills, but hook me up with a Franklin Mint Photography License if you do! I’m also in favor of a modified version of this card, one that doesn’t reference any real government entities. #33′s got the right idea. Make it look real, but reference no real body.

I feel that EFF / ACLU “endorsements” would not fool cops, they know who the ACLU is, generally despise them, and wouldn’t care to respect its alleged authority anyways. Furthermore, probably having BoingBoing / EFF / ACLU endorsed passes of some type probably presents a liability problem for these orgs. I don’t want any of them getting in trouble.

So yeah, I have no design skills, but hook me up with a Franklin Mint Photography License if you do!

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/05/15/fake-dhs-photography.html#comment-521478 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-521478 lol if you look very close at the seals..they say U.S OFFICE OF HOMELAND INSECURITY....haha I DONT THINK THE REAL SEAL SAYS THAT lol if you look very close at the seals..they say U.S OFFICE OF HOMELAND INSECURITY….haha I DONT THINK THE REAL SEAL SAYS THAT

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/05/15/fake-dhs-photography.html#comment-493320 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-493320 http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000709----000-.html Doesn't mention DHS specifically, but: Whoever, except with the written permission of the Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, knowingly uses the words “Federal Bureau of Investigation” or the initials “F.B.I.”, or any colorable imitation of such words or initials, in connection with any advertisement, circular, book, pamphlet or other publication, play, motion picture, broadcast, telecast, or other production, in a manner reasonably calculated to convey the impression that such advertisement, circular, book, pamphlet or other publication, play, motion picture, broadcast, telecast, or other production, is approved, endorsed, or authorized by the Federal Bureau of Investigation; ... Shall be punished as follows: a corporation, partnership, business trust, association, or other business entity, by a fine under this title; an officer or member thereof participating or knowingly acquiescing in such violation or any individual violating this section, by a fine under this title or imprisonment for not more than one year, or both. http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000709—-000-.html

Doesn’t mention DHS specifically, but:

Whoever, except with the written permission of the Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, knowingly uses the words “Federal Bureau of Investigation” or the initials “F.B.I.”, or any colorable imitation of such words or initials, in connection with any advertisement, circular, book, pamphlet or other publication, play, motion picture, broadcast, telecast, or other production, in a manner reasonably calculated to convey the impression that such advertisement, circular, book, pamphlet or other publication, play, motion picture, broadcast, telecast, or other production, is approved, endorsed, or authorized by the Federal Bureau of Investigation; …

Shall be punished as follows: a corporation, partnership, business trust, association, or other business entity, by a fine under this title; an officer or member thereof participating or knowingly acquiescing in such violation or any individual violating this section, by a fine under this title or imprisonment for not more than one year, or both.

]]> By: mildweed http://boingboing.net/2009/05/15/fake-dhs-photography.html#comment-493065 mildweed Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-493065 I'm also in favor of a modified version of this card, one that doesn't reference any real government entities. #33's got the right idea. Make it look real, but reference no real body. I feel that EFF / ACLU "endorsements" would not fool cops, they know who the ACLU is, generally despise them, and wouldn't care to respect its alleged authority anyways. Furthermore, probably having BoingBoing / EFF / ACLU endorsed passes of some type probably presents a liability problem for these orgs. I don't want any of them getting in trouble. So yeah, I have no design skills, but hook me up with a Franklin Mint Photography License if you do! I’m also in favor of a modified version of this card, one that doesn’t reference any real government entities. #33′s got the right idea. Make it look real, but reference no real body.

I feel that EFF / ACLU “endorsements” would not fool cops, they know who the ACLU is, generally despise them, and wouldn’t care to respect its alleged authority anyways. Furthermore, probably having BoingBoing / EFF / ACLU endorsed passes of some type probably presents a liability problem for these orgs. I don’t want any of them getting in trouble.

So yeah, I have no design skills, but hook me up with a Franklin Mint Photography License if you do!

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/05/15/fake-dhs-photography.html#comment-493321 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-493321 and http://128.253.22.246/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00001028----000-.html (a) Whoever, in a circumstance described in subsection (c) of this section— (1) knowingly and without lawful authority produces an identification document, authentication feature, or a false identification document... shall be punished as provided in subsection (b) of this section. and

http://128.253.22.246/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00001028—-000-.html

(a) Whoever, in a circumstance described in subsection (c) of this section—
(1) knowingly and without lawful authority produces an identification document, authentication feature, or a false identification document…

shall be punished as provided in subsection (b) of this section.

]]> By: jjasper http://boingboing.net/2009/05/15/fake-dhs-photography.html#comment-492812 jjasper Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-492812 Well, if the police are lying about your rights as a photographer, no one busts them. Still, I think encouraging people to do something illegal as a means of protest ought to at least come with the information that "Yes this is illegal, and here are the penalties" instead of "Who knows if it's legal to carry one of these -- probably about as legal as taking away your camera and erasing your memory card for snapping a pic on the subway." It's immature, irresponsible, and inconsiderate of the consequences to others. Well, if the police are lying about your rights as a photographer, no one busts them. Still, I think encouraging people to do something illegal as a means of protest ought to at least come with the information that “Yes this is illegal, and here are the penalties” instead of “Who knows if it’s legal to carry one of these — probably about as legal as taking away your camera and erasing your memory card for snapping a pic on the subway.”

It’s immature, irresponsible, and inconsiderate of the consequences to others.

]]> By: dragonfrog http://boingboing.net/2009/05/15/fake-dhs-photography.html#comment-493069 dragonfrog Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-493069 Now, as long as the document is clearly not identification, but a license to do something (for which no license is necessary because everyone is allowed to do it), that seems more likely to be kosher. You could even some fine print in there that says "Photography License not valid without Government-issued identification", which would serve the dual purpose of spelling out that it's not ID, and of making it seem more acceptable to authoritarian ignoramuses - by giving them an opportunity to cross-check your ID with the license, you offer them a way out of the situation that leaves both their self-importance and your camera intact. I know Saskatchewan used to have your driving license be a separate document from your provincial ID - the license was proof that Joe Schmoe was allowed to drive, and the ID was proof that you were Joe Schmoe. I kind of think some US states might also do that, but I don't know. It makes sense, right - just because your driving license is expired, it doesn't affect your identity. Typically people just put the two back-to-back in a clear plastic sleeve, but the license was still a separate document, and clearly not ID. Now, as long as the document is clearly not identification, but a license to do something (for which no license is necessary because everyone is allowed to do it), that seems more likely to be kosher. You could even some fine print in there that says “Photography License not valid without Government-issued identification”, which would serve the dual purpose of spelling out that it’s not ID, and of making it seem more acceptable to authoritarian ignoramuses – by giving them an opportunity to cross-check your ID with the license, you offer them a way out of the situation that leaves both their self-importance and your camera intact.

I know Saskatchewan used to have your driving license be a separate document from your provincial ID – the license was proof that Joe Schmoe was allowed to drive, and the ID was proof that you were Joe Schmoe. I kind of think some US states might also do that, but I don’t know. It makes sense, right – just because your driving license is expired, it doesn’t affect your identity.

Typically people just put the two back-to-back in a clear plastic sleeve, but the license was still a separate document, and clearly not ID.

]]> By: MadMolecule http://boingboing.net/2009/05/15/fake-dhs-photography.html#comment-493326 MadMolecule Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-493326 Salsaman: IAAL. See my comments #46 and #56. Based on comment #54, I'll take a guess that Jonathan V may be a lawyer as well. And incidentally, I was partially wrong in #46: It's not legal to create or possess a fake ID, never mind present it as real to a government agent. Salsaman: IAAL. See my comments #46 and #56. Based on comment #54, I’ll take a guess that Jonathan V may be a lawyer as well.

And incidentally, I was partially wrong in #46: It’s not legal to create or possess a fake ID, never mind present it as real to a government agent.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/05/15/fake-dhs-photography.html#comment-494094 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-494094 Why not just use Webcam for PPC [http://www.zone1.de/] (assuming you have a nice WM phone with a decent camera), and avoid all the drama? "I can't erase the pictures - they've already been automatically uploaded to a server over which I have no control. Sorry." Or just hold your tongue and let them think you've erased them. Works for me. Why not just use Webcam for PPC [http://www.zone1.de/] (assuming you have a nice WM phone with a decent camera), and avoid all the drama?

“I can’t erase the pictures – they’ve already been automatically uploaded to a server over which I have no control. Sorry.”

Or just hold your tongue and let them think you’ve erased them.

Works for me.

]]> By: Wordguy http://boingboing.net/2009/05/15/fake-dhs-photography.html#comment-492815 Wordguy Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-492815 @ #20 Keith, you need to put your name on it to match your other fake IDs. @ #20 Keith, you need to put your name on it to match your other fake IDs.

]]> By: shadowfirebird http://boingboing.net/2009/05/15/fake-dhs-photography.html#comment-492818 shadowfirebird Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-492818 @Arkizzle: Printing Monopoly money isn't illegal, though. ...Oh, wait, it's probably breach of copyright. Damn. @Arkizzle:

Printing Monopoly money isn’t illegal, though. …Oh, wait, it’s probably breach of copyright. Damn.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/05/15/fake-dhs-photography.html#comment-494361 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-494361 If this is for aviation and transportation photographers, you are doing ALL OF US a disservice! This will simply make DHS and other officials more suspicious that we are trying to do MORE than our LEGAL rights (photography from public locations, etc.) and attempting to conceal more sinister motives. It's probably illegal and I'd bet a good deal of my own aviation photography resources that if an officer is wise enough to recognize it's a fake, you'll lose more than your photography equipment. Best wishes, but don't count on them... If this is for aviation and transportation photographers, you are doing ALL OF US a disservice! This will simply make DHS and other officials more suspicious that we are trying to do MORE than our LEGAL rights (photography from public locations, etc.) and attempting to conceal more sinister motives. It’s probably illegal and I’d bet a good deal of my own aviation photography resources that if an officer is wise enough to recognize it’s a fake, you’ll lose more than your photography equipment. Best wishes, but don’t count on them…

]]> By: Cpt. Tim http://boingboing.net/2009/05/15/fake-dhs-photography.html#comment-493086 Cpt. Tim Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-493086 when you get hassled illegally there's a good chance you can sue. The officer might get punished. But at the end of the day he goes home. Its been a problem for NYC, and the city is getting kind of pissed at their law enforcement. when you use this illegally, well. Have fun. Not all boing boing users read the comments. Sweet christ please update the description so less intelligent readers don't try this stunt. when you get hassled illegally there’s a good chance you can sue. The officer might get punished. But at the end of the day he goes home. Its been a problem for NYC, and the city is getting kind of pissed at their law enforcement.

when you use this illegally, well. Have fun.

Not all boing boing users read the comments. Sweet christ please update the description so less intelligent readers don’t try this stunt.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/05/15/fake-dhs-photography.html#comment-497440 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-497440 Illegal? Just make it say Homeboy Security. Word. Illegal?
Just make it say Homeboy Security.

Word.

]]> By: Drew from Zhrodague http://boingboing.net/2009/05/15/fake-dhs-photography.html#comment-492833 Drew from Zhrodague Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-492833 I'd love something like this too, but probably not with the federal logos on it. If it looks professional, printed on plastic, with something generic like "Press Pass: Unrestricted" or even "Photography License" would be sufficient. I've been harassed blocks from my house for taking pictures of local buildings. Bruiser security guard came out of a building into the street to threaten me with police, saying the local hospital was a high security area. I am not so good at explaining myself, which usually makes things far worse. I also take pictures of freaking everything. How much do those ID card printers and materials cost? I’d love something like this too, but probably not with the federal logos on it. If it looks professional, printed on plastic, with something generic like “Press Pass: Unrestricted” or even “Photography License” would be sufficient.

I’ve been harassed blocks from my house for taking pictures of local buildings. Bruiser security guard came out of a building into the street to threaten me with police, saying the local hospital was a high security area. I am not so good at explaining myself, which usually makes things far worse. I also take pictures of freaking everything.

How much do those ID card printers and materials cost?

]]> By: SamSam http://boingboing.net/2009/05/15/fake-dhs-photography.html#comment-493090 SamSam Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-493090 I would think this would be much more legal, and have much the same effect, if it: * Replaced "Photography license" with "Photographer" * Removed all references to Homeland Security. Then all it's saying is the truth -- that you are a photographer -- but all the official-looking stuff, particularly the "A1 - Unrestricted," look sufficiently official to make the average rent-a-cop shut up. Actually, probably 95% of rent-a-cops <i>wouldn't</i> shut up, because they believe that their power is <i>always</i> more than yours, but these same 95% would phone in the "Homeland Security" version, and then you'll be in much bigger trouble. I would think this would be much more legal, and have much the same effect, if it:

* Replaced “Photography license” with “Photographer”
* Removed all references to Homeland Security.

Then all it’s saying is the truth — that you are a photographer — but all the official-looking stuff, particularly the “A1 – Unrestricted,” look sufficiently official to make the average rent-a-cop shut up.

Actually, probably 95% of rent-a-cops wouldn’t shut up, because they believe that their power is always more than yours, but these same 95% would phone in the “Homeland Security” version, and then you’ll be in much bigger trouble.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/05/15/fake-dhs-photography.html#comment-494118 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-494118 Actually, you can print your own Monopoly money. Hasbro has made PDF files available: http://www.hasbro.com/games/kid-games/monopoly/default.cfm?page=strategyguide/gametools Andy Ihnatko had an article in Make magazine 5 on getting in as a press photographer. It is more than a fake pass. You have to dress the part. The same tricks might help a little with the cops. In Boston, blinking lights can get you hauled away. So if you want to take pictures, don't be obvious. Play with your camera. Shoot from the hip. My camera has a movable LCD. That is not the point here, I know. I just don't like to challenge authority directly. But I will get my picture. Actually, you can print your own Monopoly money. Hasbro has made PDF files available:
http://www.hasbro.com/games/kid-games/monopoly/default.cfm?page=strategyguide/gametools

Andy Ihnatko had an article in Make magazine 5 on getting in as a press photographer. It is more than a fake pass. You have to dress the part. The same tricks might help a little with the cops. In Boston, blinking lights can get you hauled away. So if you want to take pictures, don’t be obvious. Play with your camera. Shoot from the hip. My camera has a movable LCD.
That is not the point here, I know. I just don’t like to challenge authority directly. But I will get my picture.

]]> By: chutotoro http://boingboing.net/2009/05/15/fake-dhs-photography.html#comment-493095 chutotoro Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-493095 The solution to this cop/photography problem is simple economics. If the cop oversteps their authority, then let them do it, and sue their department's pants off in the resulting civil action. Once enough departments have been hit with expensive civil rights lawsuits, then it will become in their own best interest to make sure their cops know their place. Make their actions hurt their bottom line, and they will change their own behavior. The solution to this cop/photography problem is simple economics. If the cop oversteps their authority, then let them do it, and sue their department’s pants off in the resulting civil action.

Once enough departments have been hit with expensive civil rights lawsuits, then it will become in their own best interest to make sure their cops know their place. Make their actions hurt their bottom line, and they will change their own behavior.

]]> By: Antinous / Moderator http://boingboing.net/2009/05/15/fake-dhs-photography.html#comment-493607 Antinous / Moderator Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-493607 Anonymous with the 263 character confirmation URL, Yes, it's a nightmare. We're trying to figure out a way to fix it, but for now, it's what the system does. Anonymous with the 263 character confirmation URL,

Yes, it’s a nightmare. We’re trying to figure out a way to fix it, but for now, it’s what the system does.

]]> By: Max Kennerly http://boingboing.net/2009/05/15/fake-dhs-photography.html#comment-492841 Max Kennerly Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-492841 As creative and hilarious an idea this is, I'd be awful careful about putting it into practice. Most states (all that I know of) have an "unsworn falsification to authorities" statute which makes it at least a misdemeanor to submit to a government agent documents known to be false. As creative and hilarious an idea this is, I’d be awful careful about putting it into practice. Most states (all that I know of) have an “unsworn falsification to authorities” statute which makes it at least a misdemeanor to submit to a government agent documents known to be false.

]]> By: xaxa http://boingboing.net/2009/05/15/fake-dhs-photography.html#comment-493355 xaxa Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-493355 #1 "I understand London has a problem with this" You might like to try a news source other than BoingBoing to balance your opinion on London/the UK before jumping to conclusions. #1 “I understand London has a problem with this”
You might like to try a news source other than BoingBoing to balance your opinion on London/the UK before jumping to conclusions.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/05/15/fake-dhs-photography.html#comment-493102 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-493102 Well it's illegal in Virginia; Probably other states too. COV 18.2-204.2. Facsimile or manufacture, sale, etc., or possession of fictitious, simulated official license or identification. * It is illegal to possess, produce or distribute a falsified document that can be mistaken as an official government document. * Violators face Class 1 misdemeanor charges for the sale or production of such ID and Class 2 misdemeanor charges for possession of such ID. http://www.abc.state.va.us/facts/fakeid.html Well it’s illegal in Virginia; Probably other states too.

COV 18.2-204.2. Facsimile or manufacture, sale, etc., or possession of fictitious, simulated official license or identification.

* It is illegal to possess, produce or distribute a falsified document that can be mistaken as an official government document.
* Violators face Class 1 misdemeanor charges for the sale or production of such ID and Class 2 misdemeanor charges for possession of such ID.

http://www.abc.state.va.us/facts/fakeid.html

]]> By: airship http://boingboing.net/2009/05/15/fake-dhs-photography.html#comment-493103 airship Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-493103 Much better to print out and carry a copy of the Photographer's Rights PDF: http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm Much better to print out and carry a copy of the Photographer’s Rights PDF:

http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm

]]> By: Dave Rattigan http://boingboing.net/2009/05/15/fake-dhs-photography.html#comment-492849 Dave Rattigan Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-492849 Surely the legality of presenting a cop with a document that falsely claims to be authorized by the Department of Homeland Security is a no-brainer? Surely the legality of presenting a cop with a document that falsely claims to be authorized by the Department of Homeland Security is a no-brainer?

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/05/15/fake-dhs-photography.html#comment-492850 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-492850 I love that the card has a religion field. Nice touch. I love that the card has a religion field. Nice touch.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/05/15/fake-dhs-photography.html#comment-493108 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-493108 US Law says it's illegal if: "the identification document, authentication feature, or false identification document is or appears to be issued by or under the authority of the United States or a sponsoring entity of an event designated as a special event of national significance or the document-making implement is designed or suited for making such an identification document, authentication feature, or false identification document" (<a>http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/1028.html</a>) so if this were redone to be from some fictional Photography Agency rather than from the government (kind of like the MUNI one), it would be perfectly legal. US Law says it’s illegal if:
“the identification document, authentication feature, or false identification document is or appears to be issued by or under the authority of the United States or a sponsoring entity of an event designated as a special event of national significance or the document-making implement is designed or suited for making such an identification document, authentication feature, or false identification document”
(http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/1028.html)

so if this were redone to be from some fictional Photography Agency rather than from the government (kind of like the MUNI one), it would be perfectly legal.

]]> By: samsumner http://boingboing.net/2009/05/15/fake-dhs-photography.html#comment-499764 samsumner Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-499764 Nosehat, On "May 15, 2009 2:17 AM" you posted: {Done! Thanks for the link.} concerning the DHS Photography License. As the link has been removed, could you PLEASE e-mail me either a copy of the file, or a link to it (if one is available). sam.sumner@juno.com I don't want to use it as seen, but would like to use the template to make some changes. THANKS! Nosehat,

On “May 15, 2009 2:17 AM” you posted:
{Done! Thanks for the link.} concerning the DHS Photography License.
As the link has been removed, could you PLEASE e-mail me either a copy of the file, or a link to it (if one is available).
sam.sumner@juno.com
I don’t want to use it as seen, but would like to use the template to make some changes.
THANKS!

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/05/15/fake-dhs-photography.html#comment-492863 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-492863 C'mon lets see one that says Terrorist Photographer. Now that person has balls! C’mon lets see one that says Terrorist Photographer. Now that person has balls!

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/05/15/fake-dhs-photography.html#comment-494399 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-494399 I would think this fake ID would now be fairly useless as it has made the blogs.......... I would think this fake ID would now be fairly useless as it has made the blogs……….

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