/ Cory Doctorow / 7:52 am Sun May 17, 2009

Montreal cop cuffs, busts and fines student $450 for not holding escalator rail in subway

A Montreal/Laval cop cuffed and dragged a university student away, throwing her in a holding cell and writing her a ticket for CDN$420 ...for failing to hold the handrail while she dug in her bag for her subway fare.
Bela Kosoian, a 38-year-old mother of two, says when she didn't hold the handrail Wednesday she was cuffed, dragged into a small holding cell and fined.

"It was horrible, disgusting behaviour [by police]," said Ms. Kosoian, a 38-year-old student of international law. "I did nothing wrong. They should go find the guys who stole my tires off the balcony."

Ms. Kosoian, who studies at the Université du Québec à Montreal, was riding an escalator down to catch a 5:30 p.m. subway from the suburb of Laval to an evening class downtown when she started rifling through her backpack looking for a fare.

Ms. Kosoian, who grew up in Georgia when it was still part of the Soviet Union, says she didn't catch the officer's instruction to hold the rail when he first approached.

When he told her again to hang on, she says she replied, "I don't have three hands." Besides, she had been sick and feared catching a new bug.

Woman cuffed for not holding escalator handrail (Thanks, Roy!)

(Image: John Morstad/For The Globe and Mail)

127

  1. Just want to make sure. It’s not in Montreal, it’s in Laval, not the same, really not the same!

  2. Well, I don’t see what is wrong with this. I regularly walk around downtown with a large gun, and if I see someone doing something dangerous – shoelaces untied, playing with their phone, not looking where they are walking – I rob them of several hundred dollars.

    All in the name of public safety, of course, so they learn better not to do it next time.

    Please don’t confuse me with a common criminal, however. The difference is, I use some of the revenue I generate in this manner to help the disadvantaged.

    Last year, the mayor gave me a gold medal for my service to the community.

  4. This smacks of “Not enough information” on the part of BB. I have a sneaking suspicion that there was more exchanged than the 10 or so words offered.

  6. Just out of curiosity, and kind of off-topic, but I just participated in a heated discussion on another blog:

    Is this use of the photo from Globe and Mail “fair use” according to US regulations on the subject?

    I believe it would be, in the US and UK, anyway. I’m pretty sure a court here in Denmark would rule it as an infringement and accord damages around ~$1,000, unless an explicit permission were obtained from rightsholders, in this case the photographer. (By the by: I’m not implying or alleging it wasn’t in this case. Just using it as an example.)

  8. Remember that South Park where Catman went around telling everyone to “respect his ah-tor-ah-tee?”

    I think most cops are like that….they become cops because the job makes their disk feel bigger. Face it, that line of work attracts anti-social folks who can finally bully the world with official approval. And if you’re not anti-social when you start, the nature of the work will probably make you that way after a while.

    There are some cops who join the force truly out of a desire to serve and protect, but they are the minority. Most are bullies with badges.

  11. A slight quibble with the post: this wasn’t actually the Montreal cops, just the Montreal *Transit* cops. Different police force, and Montrealers have had problems with them before regarding brutality and excessive use of force. And yes, Madfist, they have no problem administering a beatdown on the slightest of pretexts. They are brutes.

  13. @5

    Yes, because it’s illegal to be foul tempered toward authority figures.

    Police officers are intended to be protectors and servants. “To Serve And Protect”, and all that. They’re supposed to be above pettiness and personal feelings. They’re supposed to act as professionals. As much abuse as people may give them, they are never entitled to dish out abuse of their own. Be it physical, authoritarian, emotional, or otherwise.

    Police, ideally, should be calm and rational people with the patience and professionality of a customer service agent, the intelligence and wisdom of a good doctor, the character and compassion of a school teacher, the knowledge and experience of a legal assistant, and the power and responsibility of a peacekeeper.

    For every false arrest, for every aggresive encounter, for every abuse of power, an office should be scrutinized and criticized. How many photographers have been stopped because of non-existant laws? How many people have been tasered needlessly? How many peaceful protestors have been beaten into submission?

    The world’s police are breeding fear, and are themselves fearful.

    ~D. Walker

  14. “if you’re a smartass to a cop, i think your chances of arrest go up.”

    That’s true — indeed, obvious enough that people take it for granted. It’s also worrisome: ‘being a smartass’ isn’t a crime and isn’t fair grounds for arrest. It’s troubling that even in law-abiding democracies, it is taken for granted that getting mouthy with some government officials is tantamount to a crime.

    *Should* people mouth off to cops? No. Cops have to put up with a lot and I know what a frustrating job it can be. But cops shouldn’t be able to work out their frustrations by arresting with near impunity.

  15. I live in Montreal. It is a peaceful and friendly town and everyone looked at these “subway cops” (introduced two or three years ago) as a menace to our integrity and freedom.

    This is a good example of why we were against that.

    Not to mention that the subway lines are over-crowded, late and often paralyzed…

    Use your bike; it is fare more “green” and cheep!

  16. See how much they wrote her a ticket for?
    Those Montreal cops were just stoned as hell, and this was their idea of a good prank.

  17. That’s weird, I didn’t even know that was a rule. I ride the metro in Montreal all the time, and I never hold the handrail unless it’s one of those really long escalators that give me vertigo.

  19. Cops are Very Special People.
    When a cop tells you to hold a handrail, it’s not just a person giving advice, it’s a Very Special Person telling you what to do. If you treat them like any other person (“Mind your own business, my hands are full”) they will get upset. You aren’t acknowledging their specialness! Clearly, you have a problem. Just the kind of problem cops love to deal with – the problem of not treating cops like heroes who must be obeyed instantly!

  20. @ Lord Xenu : Actually, if you read the G&M article it says that it was actually the Laval (City) Cops who made the arrest and issued the ticket. The Metro officials were relieved to discover that it wasn’t ‘one of their own’ and went on record as saying it’s not the kind of infraction that they enforce.

  21. @#3 YEAH!! Those dang French! If they hadn’t bailed us out of the American Revolution, thereby guaranteeing my right to mock them, I’d have no use for them at all!!

  22. From the article:

    Isabelle Tremblay, a spokesperson for the STM, seemed relieved to establish late yesterday that Laval police stopped Ms. Kosoian.

    “We were quite surprised to hear about this, we don’t give fines for such things,” Ms. Tremblay said.

    Lord Xenu, the article seems to indicate that the officer in question is not a transit cop. I’m confused. Do you have other info that is not in the article?

  23. seems to be a rule applies that equally in many nations.

    Transit cops are all a-holes with an insecurity complex and something to prove.

    Usually they weren’t quite good enough to be “real” cops and fear that the regular police regard them as mall ninjas.

  25. Tabernac …

    First, Francophones in Quebec are not French, they are Quebecois.

    Second, after three years of living in Montreal I can personally attest that many of the old-guard Quiet Revolution Quebecois *are* racist. The language laws they enacted are ample proof of this.

    And as a personal example, I got off the Metro one night at Lionel-Groulx to find someone I recognized as a neighborhood drug addict (his dealer lived two doors down from me) panhandling on the lower platform. I went to the ticket agent and explained (in English) that although it might not be my business, I wanted to make them aware that an unsavory type was harassing paying commuters.

    The response was, “Nous sommes en Quebec, et en Quebec nous parlons Francais.” (“We’re in Quebec, and in Quebec we speak French.”)

    I guess a Francophone drug addict trumps an Anglophone taxpayer in the eyes of the old guard.

    Thankfully, such stupid and racist behavior and thinking seems to be on the wane. The younger Quebecois generations are universally appalled by this story (and good for them!).

    But for now, if you’re Anglophone, I’d personally encourage you not to live in Montreal. But a short visit can be nice.

    1. Quebecois (or Francophones) are a race? I’d like to see citations for that.

  26. #6 – “they become cops because the job makes their disk feel bigger.”

    I can personally vouch for this. It doesn’t just feel bigger. It is. When I signed up for the force, I was sitting on a 5 1/4″ floppy disk, and by the time I made detective, I’d upgraded all the way to a CD-ROM.

  27. @mneptok: I won’t disagree but every community has some cranks who take things to extremes and I’d prefer to think of the ticket agent as one of them. (I would hesitate to paint all Quebecois with the same brush.)

    That said, there’s likely an element of truth in your assessment: if she’d been “pur laine”, the cop would likely have laughed and sent her on her way.

  28. ? if openly racist police policy is practiced in other parts of Canada, the federal government takes an interest. Why is Quebec exempt?

  30. To be fair, a person could get hurt for not holding the handrail on an escalator.

    and…

    It’s only natural in that location to see escalation to violence.

    /sarcasm

  31. “Why are they exempt?”

    Secession is the excuse I think. sspct t’s lts lk th S Jwsh cmmnty- spcl ntrst grp wth pwr fr grtr thn t’s nmbrs wld ndct. nd mny. It’s not too surprising to learn that a lot of the biggest Canadian companies have french names or were otherwise started in Quebec City/ Montreal (Molson, Labatt, Bombardier…) The Old Boys’ Club in Canada meets in Quebec.

    1. I suspect it’s a lots like the US Jewish community- a special interest group with power far greater than it’s numbers would indicate.

      When you say ‘Jewish’, do you mean ‘Right-wing Christian’? Because the latter seems to have their fingers in every pie in the US.

  32. It’s called a metro!

    My friend got taken into one of those little holding cells for looking into an air vent.

  33. but everyone inside and outside Quebec knows there is no chance of secession, why is a ludicrously empty threat still used as the excuse? It would be more probable for Texas to leave the Union than Quebec to pay her own bills.

  34. Part i:

    As someone who actually read the article with my morning espresso:

    1a) I’d bet the city policeman slapped her with a fine because
    a) she didn’t listen to him the first time;
    b) she talked back.
    Any Montrealers here remember the case of Mr. Parent: Seeing a police car parked in a no-parking zone in front of a convvenience store, went inside to complain to the officers who were inside buying coffee or cigarettes. The policemen began pounding on Mr. Parent, and called for backup, declaring that Mr. Parent was going crazy and attacking them. Too bad for them, the store had a security camera taping the whole thing.

    Yes, it does begin to feel like an episode of South Park.

    1b) Why, oh why, is the policeman/bureaucrat/corporate-boss always anonymous in these stories?
    Why, oh why, didn’t the reporter at least try to get a statement from the Service de police de la ville de Laval? INSTEAD of talking to Dr. Philip Tierno (from NYU, whaaa?!), effectively threadjacking the article, and going on about germs on escalator handrails, not the point about police abuse of powers? – see below

    3) Do the police really think that they’re helping their cause by doing such stupid, anti-community actions like this?

    http://www.rcmpwatch.com/open-letter-to-zofia-cisowski/
    In a letter to Dziekanski’s mother (see below for backgroud info), psychologist Mike Webster noted:
    “Among a list of principles fundamental to democratic policing [Sir Robert Peel] noted that the relationship of the police to the community must always reflect the historic tradition that “we are them and they are us”.”
    and,
    “Unfortunately, the idea of intimidating people is entirely consistent with the RCMP management’s way of managing conflict, not only with the public, but also with its own membership.”

    So, as the RCMP does, so do the other police forces in Canada.

    It’s just like in the ‘States: since the CIA and the military and the politicians don’t have to suffer the consequences of their illegal actions, they broadcast loud and clear to all the other people down the chain of command: “Do what you want, you won’t get punished for it.”

    Background: http://preview.tinyurl.com/pju9ps
    “RCMP were poorly prepared to deal with riled Dziekanski: psychologist”

  40. Ever since I saw a young guy spit on his hand and then deliberately rub that onto the handrail of an escalator, I have avoided holding handrails if I possibly can. I think it should be anyone’s right to make that kind of choice.

    1. Having worked in a hospital, I avoid touching everything with my hands. Ew.

  41. @Antinous #37

    Quebecois are a race as much as Jews are. After all, anyone can convert to Judaism, regardless of their genetics.

    Try telling Jews that discrimination against them is not racist.

    1. mneptok,

      Neither Jews nor Quebecois are races. But congratulations on time-traveling from the 19th century. Or perhaps

      race
      2  /reɪs/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [reys] Show IPA
      –noun
      1. a group of persons related by common descent or heredity.
      2. a population so related.
      3. Anthropology.
      a. any of the traditional divisions of humankind, the commonest being the Caucasian, Mongoloid, and Negro, characterized by supposedly distinctive and universal physical characteristics: no longer in technical use.
      b. an arbitrary classification of modern humans, sometimes, esp. formerly, based on any or a combination of various physical characteristics, as skin color, facial form, or eye shape, and now frequently based on such genetic markers as blood groups.
      c. a human population partially isolated reproductively from other populations, whose members share a greater degree of physical and genetic similarity with one another than with other humans.
      4. a group of tribes or peoples forming an ethnic stock: the Slavic race.
      5. any people united by common history, language, cultural traits, etc.: the Dutch race.
      6. the human race or family; humankind: Nuclear weapons pose a threat to the race.
      7. Zoology. a variety; subspecies.
      8. a natural kind of living creature: the race of fishes.
      9. any group, class, or kind, esp. of persons: Journalists are an interesting race.
      10. the characteristic taste or flavor of wine.
      –adjective
      11. of or pertaining to the races of humankind.
      Origin:
      1490–1500; < F < It razza, of obscure orig. Synonyms: 1. tribe, clan, family, stock, line, breed. Race, people, nation are terms for a large body of persons who may be thought of as a unit because of common characteristics. In the traditional biological and anthropological systems of classification race refers to a group of persons who share such genetically transmitted traits as skin color, hair texture, and eye shape or color: the white race; the yellow race. In reference to classifying the human species, race is now under dispute among modern biologists and anthropologists. Some feel that the term has no biological validity; others use it to specify only a partially isolated reproductive population whose members share a considerable degree of genetic similarity. In certain broader or less technical senses race is sometimes used interchangeably with people. People refers to a body of persons united usually by common interests, ideals, or culture but sometimes also by a common history, language, or ethnic character: We are one people; the peoples of the world; the Swedish people. Nation refers to a body of persons living under an organized government or rule, occupying a defined area, and acting as a unit in matters of peace and war: the English nation.

    5. When you say ‘Jewish’, do you mean ‘Right-wing Christian’? Because the latter seems to have their fingers in every pie in the US.
      True, but they’re not exactly lacking in numbers.

      (Isn’t that more frightening than any conspiracy you could dream up?)

    6. Society, in the pretext of protecting itself from the criminal element, has added a layer of pernicious and pestering corruption to its social-interaction roster.

      Downsize cops or relocate them to where they are truly needed.

      The effectiveness of cops is something rational minds should seriously consider.

    7. Antinous,

      And congratulations on going ad hominem in record time.

      And you might want to read the

      5. any people united by common history, language, cultural traits, etc.: the Dutch race

      portion of Takuan’s comment @46 again.

      1. And congratulations on going ad hominem in record time.

        And good luck to you with the phrenology license. When you’re done explaining how ethnic Chinese Jews, ethnic Ethiopian Jews, Ashkenazim and Sabras constitute a single race, let me know.

    8. Wouldn’t it have been easier for the cop to just push her down their escalator to prove his point?

    9. your fault:

      Two Jewish gentlemen walk into a Chinese restaurant in China.

      They ask the waiter,

      “Hello my friend, we are just visiting your lovely country

      as part of our travels and noticed that

      we have seen Jews everywhere.

      We have seen

      North American Jews,

      South American Jews,

      European Jews,

      Australian Jews

      and even Antarctic Jews.

      We were wondering if there are Chinese Jews.”

      The waiter paused and asked if he could be excused to go and ask his boss,

      so he goes to the back for a few minutes.

      After about 10 minutes,

      he comes back and states,

      “We have apple juice,

      orange juice

      and pineapple juice.

      But so sorry, we don’t have Chinese juice.

    10. Re-reading the original post, I must say that I can detect nothing there that hints at the direction this thread has taken. Can we go back to cop-bashing please? Unless someone wishes to represent cops as a race distinct from the rest of us…

    12. “Use your bike; it is fare more “green” and cheep!”

      I’m too scared of being arrested by traffic police for terroristic bird impersonation.

      I also want to know more about why this individual keeps tyres on her balcony.

    14. American born, raised as a French Canadian, I’ve read all comments here and… where to begin?

      I won’t loose my time to fight such a display of crass ignorance.

    15. @58-I also want to know more about why this individual keeps tyres on her balcony.

      This being spring, they were probably her winter tires. If she’s in an apartment, she doesn’t have a garage to store them.

      And it is ludicrous how the article devolves into a debate about whether you can catch an illness from the handrail. It’s totally beside the point. She shouldn’t have to make an excuse or justify herself for not holding it.

    16. I’ve HAD IT with the Jewish RCMP non-tire rotaters and their racist agenda against public escalator free-handers! They and their crypto-Chinese cohorts infiltrating the subways! (I’m on to you, Innocent!)

    18. “Service de police de la ville de Laval”

      Oh, yeah…say that 5 times fast!

      That really has a lilt to it.

    20. One article about a stupid cop going way too far in Montreal/Laval and it instantly morphs into a Quebec-bashing tirade… Does anyone knows of another group of people that elicit such instantaneous contempt/hatred? Besides gays I mean.

      1. Does anyone knows of another group of people that elicit such instantaneous contempt/hatred?

        I’m descended from Newfs. Will that do?

    22. @1 – Laval is pretty much Montreal. I live in Montreal and you’re right that it’s not directly in the city- but it’s part of the Montreal metro system and the greater Montreal area- to say any different is splitting hairs. Like with a laser.

    23. How did this become an anti-French thread?

      There’s a problem with cops in most places.

      The cops in Vegas have beat several people to death on camera in just the past few years. An airport guard tasered and beat a returning US veteran for mouthing off to him. Other guards came running and took people’s cameras and cell phones. How did it get out? The computer guy copied it off the security system and posted it on the net when the government claimed on TV it never happened.

      The problem is cops and government workers are not held accountable and every other cop, guard and government clown automatically makes excuses for them. So government continues it’s slide into bullyism.

    25. I’m Canadian, I’m born in Quebec and I live in the city of Montreal. My native language is french and so is my culture. I speak english without accent. I’m learning spanish. My friends are equally divided between french-speaking and english-speaking. I work with people from many cultures and religions. I read Boing boing regularly.

      I think Montreal is a wonderful, unique place in North America. I also think the cops here are as bad as they are anywhere else on this planet at this moment of history.

      I just wanted the Canadians who read the comments to this article to know that, before posting their opinion.

    26. @25 MNEPTOK:

      I simply adore your little anecdote, it read like this:

      “These people are bigots when enforcing their preffered spoken language. I was being discriminatory and ratting on a class of person I am better than, and their response was to discriminate against me, whyen I was being discriminatory to someone else. SO UNFAIR!”

    27. Man, that would make these metro ads misleading the. Il ne fait pas beau dans l’métro.

    29. These comments are so teetering on the brink of Godwin, it’s almost ridiculous.

      Also, it might be useful to remember a little advice from our phundy phriends about a soft answer turning away wrath and all that. Of course that doesn’t give a cop license to beat you senseless, but think of it like trying to reason with a drunk or an ape… or an infant.

      How much more effort would it be to say, “I’m sorry, I’m having trouble finding something in my bag, Please give me just a moment.”

      Is it really capitulating? At the end of the day you haven’t got a fine or pending court case (which granted you didn’t deserve) and you have the satisfaction of knowing that you are smarter than a belligerent baboon whom you’ve now tamed with your tongue.

      (Yeah yeah, case by case…)

    30. That’s funny. She thinks cops are here to find criminals who steal tires…

      When will people learn that cops don’t stop crime or even solve cases…their purpose is to impose fear so we don’t step out of line.

      There is no war on terror, because we aren’t fighting cops.

      Think I’m wrong? My brother got stabbed in the neck at a party then beaten so badly both his eye sockets were broken and his left eye was punctured. He very nearly died. That was almost a year ago. Everyone there saw it happen, the police know who the kid is…and nothing has been done about it. We even have a lawyer!

      They keep telling us they are building a case. I guess they don’t have enough time when they are dealing with criminals who don’t hold hand rails, and don’t tuck tail like a beaten dog when instructed to do so.

    31. @73 J France

      ANYONE “enforcing” a “preffered (sic) spoken language” is a bigot; Anglophone or Francophone.

      It’s just Quebec actually has laws about what language is more acceptable than another. And they enforce them.

      Language police = bad. No matter what language they enforce.

      And how was I being discriminatory, exactly? By telling someone whose responsibility it is to keep passengers safe that someone I know to be a drug addict is asking for money inside a Metro station?

      Or just by speaking English?

    32. Mneptok. @78.

      Kind if with you on this. Legislating to enforce/support a language makes no sense to me. If it is the “right” language, it will survive. Let language evolve freely.

      As an aside, there just might be something to be said for the concept that it is the the REST of Canada should be voting on secession for Quebec…

    33. Why are people complaining about “language” laws in Canada when the U.S. seems to have it’s own issues with tolerance and acceptance, mi amigo. Comprende?

    34. @#80 Jack

      Err…I’m actually commenting from Canada. I don’t understand why we would need to atone for all US “issues” before we have the right to express an opinion.

      And they are language laws. Not “language” laws. They are directly about language what languages must be used. They are also enforced.

    35. “Does anyone knows of another group of people that elicit such instantaneous contempt/hatred?”

      Haven’t you seen the BB Texas bashing threads?

    39. re: race, etc.

      The Quebecois consider themselves a “nation” in the same way that the Iroquois are a nation.

    40. Only on BoingBoing…

      If you read the article and 99% of the comments after you’ll realize that they are not anti-French. That from people living here and who should know if we are the monsters that you describe. Only here on BoingBoing…

      Did one single motherfucker here stopped hating long enough to think that those cops may just very well not have been French Canadian? In the Greater Montreal 20 to 30 per cent of the Force, depending on the sector, is from other ethnic origins.

      The comments in #78, #79 are nothing but hypocrite hatred in disguise. Who are you to decide which is the people who has a right to survive?

      The famous language laws allows anyone whose education was received in English to have their children educated in English up to High School; the same laws allow for an education in English past High School for anybody. There are 3 very prosperous English universities in the province, all of them living from our taxes and since 85% of the population is francophone these universities receive a large part of their money from us. There is a public school in the Eastern Townships that exists for only three anglophones students.

      Any commerce can have any language, not just English, on its signs inasmuch as French is present. The fact is that in some places, like in Chinatown, most signs are unilingual, with no French on them and those people aren’t bothered at all. There is no need to translate the denomination: ‘Canadian Tire’ stores are called thus all throughout the province, even where there isn’t 0.1% of the population who has English as a first language.

      In this province there are three English TV networks. English radio stations are numerous: Google it.

      English persons will in actuality

      Prior to the language laws assimilation was rampant, the majority of the population had to speak English at work, it was extremely difficult to get service in French in stores like Eaton or The Bay, the Sunlife Insurance Company to give a few examples. I’ve had to fight to defend myself from group attacks, once at a convenience store, once at a garage because I dared speak French. The level of income for the French Canadian was the lowest of any ethnic group. If you had the misfortune to land in a hospital like the Jewish Hospital, the Royas Victoria Hospital or the Children Hospital there was no one there to talk to you in French, not one nurse, not one fucking doctor.

      We were called the ‘white nggrs’ of N.A. We were told to ‘speak white’. Now we can live and prosper and keep our dignity and so can anyone whose language is English.

      These are truths not hateful distortions of our reality. Our part of the country is one where is feels good to live. Racism here exists, it is simply human, but it is infinitely less intense than anywhere else in N.A.; there are more inter-ethnic marriage here than anywhere else with immigrants of first and second generation. There are no ghettos, i.e. nowhere where there is not as many francophones, whites, whatever as there are any other ethnics.

      I could go on forever.
      Pls tk yr hns rhtrc nd shv t p yr stpd ss.

    42. #87

      OK. here we go….

      “right to survive”?!. You’re reading far too much into my comments. Where did I challenge anyone’s right to survive?

      “large part of their money from us”? Who the fuck is “us”?

      I was talking about language. It was you who turned it into something else.

      Racism…. “infinitely less than anywhere in N.A.” – source, please.

      My secession comment/”joke” may have been inexcusable. Your reply makes me wonder, though.

      Again, I was talking about language.

      1. Speaking of language, can we please move back to clever innuendo instead of crude epithets?

    43. @ Benher

      EVERY TIME there’s a case of cops acting unfairly or violently, ONE GUY has to point out that if you’re nice to cops they’re less likely to abuse their authority. WHY? It’s such a dumb point to make.

    45. Time for another so called “policeman” to lose his job I think. Seriously the police MUST get tough on this sort of behaviour, for their own good and respect.

    47. OK people: S T O P

      There are a number of threads going on here, some of which are unconstructive and peripheral at best. There is both prejudice and simple ignorance, mixed in with defensiveness of nationality and personal experience, and most of it is at unintended cross-purposes.

      I am calling for it to get back on topic, now.

      * No more language bashing.
      * No more Quebecer bashing.

      Serously. Offensive people stop it. Defensive people, let’s get past it.

      * Let’s talk about cops.
      * Let’s talk about the Metro.
      * Let’s talk about Montreal/Laval (in relation to cops, and the Metro).

      * Let’s have more jokes.

      ~ Thanks for your help on this.

    48. #93 The whole metro system is being overhauled with elevators in every station. Half the buses can be access with wheelchairs too while there still is more adapted transportation (on call) for more handicapped persons.

      #87

      #87

      OK. here we go….

      “right to survive”?!. You’re reading far too much into my comments. Where did I challenge anyone’s right to survive?

      Then maybe you just need to learn more about the concept of acculturation? If we loose the possibility to live in an environment where our language is prevalent it will disappear.


      “large part of their money from us”? Who the fuck is “us”?

      Even if I was born American I was raised as a French Canadian and consider myself thus. We are a good people on average, quite tolerant, quite welcoming. Tak reported the one and only cop killing that may have been motivated by racism. The proof of that remains to be done and, say what you want, one single incident in the whole history of a people speaks for itself IMHO.


      I was talking about language. It was you who turned it into something else.
      It is not something else: our culture defines who we are and at the center of it there is our language. The survival of a culture is more than salon discussion: there is a whole lot of suffering for a whole lot of people when a whole people dies.


      Racism…. “infinitely less than anywhere in N.A.” – source, please.

      Personal experience.
      I’ve spent my life travelling: for the last 20 years I’ve spent 5-6 months outside of Canada, from Shanghai to Nairobi to Buenos Aires to Seville…

      My secession comment/”joke” may have been inexcusable. Your reply makes me wonder, though.

      Again, I was talking about language.

      You just don’t get what it implies, you apparently don’t want to know what we’ve had to endure simply because we are francophone. This will never happen again

    49. > government continues it’s slide into bullyism

      “slide”?

      like, there was a golden age, back in the day, when cops behaved themselves?

    50. “Second, after three years of living in Montreal I can personally attest that many of the old-guard Quiet Revolution Quebecois *are* racist. The language laws they enacted are ample proof of this.”

      The only xenophobic attitude here is from you. Although I never lived in Québec, I’m a Québecois and often visit my family in Montreal, and it’s certainly not a place full of racism, it’s quite the opposite. Why don’t you learn French? Because what you generally do first when you move to a place where they speak a different language, is learn that language…
      You should consider yourself lucky to live in a multicultural society, where you have the possibility to easily become bilingual.

      #87 @ WinkyBB

      “I was talking about language. It was you who turned it into something else.”

      It’s not something else. You don’t seem to understand that the right of the québecois to survive has everything to do with their language, that’s what it’s all about.

    51. #12 – Anonymous asked:

      Failure to hold a handrail is criminal? What?

      Apparently, if the reporting on the story is to be believed. Rail against the officer if you want, but there were (apparently) elected officials that passed such a law for the good of the people – don’t forget to include them in your desire for change…

      And her ticket is $100CDN for failure to follow the stickman figure at the top of the escaltor, $320CDN for creating an obstruction.

      According to fine article linked to:

      Société de transport de Montréal regulations say “it is forbidden for all persons to disobey a directive or a pictogram posted by the Société.”

      At the top of the escalator in the Montmorency station, a small sign indeed shows a stick man holding a railing with the words, “Hold the handrail.”

    52. IAmInnocent, Failix

      I am asking nicely for your help in ending this unrelated, off-topic conversation that is getting us nowhere fast (except escalating the tension of opposing views).

      I understand defending ones honour is important, and positions needs to be described explicitly (and repeatedly), but you could all be upright members of this community and step back from this dead-end thread.

      No one is winning. People have said ignorant things. I’m asking for it to stop.

      * Cops
      * Metro
      * Montreal/Lavel

      ~ again, thanks for your help on this.

    53. I understand defending ones honour is important

      It’s not about honor at all (speaking for me). I’d be unable to explain what it’s about in a few lines, but it has nothing to do with nationalism/separatism/honor/respect/etc.

      I’m asking for it to stop.

      I reluctantly fulfill your wish, although I feel the need to point out that I disagree.

      * Let’s talk about cops.

      I hate cops…

      * Let’s talk about the Metro.

      I don’t like their policies…

      * Let’s talk about Montreal/Laval (in relation to cops, and the Metro).

      One thing that north-Korea and the rest of the world have in common is that cops suck.

    54. Why Montreal? Well, they are a DISTINCT society after all…..

      (Canadians will get the joke)

    55. Lay off my Quebecois friends: let us not re-open this debate.
      Our accommodations were not crafted by ignorant anti-French bigots (who in general appear to need instruction in remedial English, anyway).
      In Canada, we have Laws against hateful speech for good reasons: most of our people have the experience of conflict in their family history, and most of us know how those conflicts started.
      The expression of hatred for a group identified by race, language or religion is a type of speech of which the harmful effects are both immediate and obvious: the benefits of legally protecting this type of speech is not at all obvious or self-evident.
      Indeed it appears to us that the unthinking respect accorded by some to the provisions of the US Constitution seems to render it but a mere shibboleth: by its reflexive and unthinking adoption, apparently the USians think vile and violent racist speech is so “valuable”, that it must be protected by law….and further that such protection is never to be questioned.
      Bah. OUR Constitution allows Quebec to pass their language laws, as they have done.
      Yet we continue as a free an democratic society, decades after the adoption of these laws.
      Vive Quebec! Vive la langue francaise!
      And for you English: Honi soit qui mal y pense!
      Finally, may I suggest that if you don’t have something good or useful to say about people or persons, then STFU: and get back to talking of things and ideas.
      Or do as the Americans do, and speak only of yourself.

    56. Dear Arkizzle,

      bashing an identifiable group of people has become an alarming trend on BB. If we can curb it somewhat we will have gone somewhere. I am on record lately for protesting against those attacks based on a poorly rationalized need to hate on at least three occasions. I do so to my own personal risk. The last thing I want to happen here is for some people, with whom I disagree at those moments but whom I otherwise hold in great esteem, to think any less of me.

      It is not about honor my dear man, it is about what is at the very core of the existence of 6-7 millions persons. Unjustifiable attacks were made and a defense was in order. That is all that I am going to say on the subject.

      Regards,
      Jean

    57. Thanks UglyCannuck :)

      For the record I am Canadian and federalist. American politicians are always talking of the best country in the world: I’ve always wondered why the did talk about Canada so much in their speeches?

      OK, I’ll shut * * up now.

      :)

    58. Geez, I almost forgot.
      It’s the May Two-four holiday up here in Canada: we celebrate at this time of year, as it is now finally safe to sleep off that 24-pack of beer outside (although a sleeping bag is still advisable).
      Happy Victoria Day! A notre freres at soeurs Quebecois aussi!

    61. Jean,

      I didn’t mean honour in a trivial manner, I meant it as a signifier of ‘your truth’. As in, it is important to defend that in which you believe. And it is.

      You are right in lots of ways, language is hugely important to cultural identity. As an Irish man I can tell you clearly, that the taking of our language (and cultural education) was one of our oppressor’s defining moves in conquering our land (and our minds). Today there is only a small area, running about half the length of the west coast of Ireland, called the Gaelteacht, where the Irish language is still spoken exclusively. It needs encouragement and protection.

      Importantly, I wasn’t grading the validity of the argument, I was saying this thread isn’t the place for it. Not your end, specifically the bashing and the ignorant assessments. I was asking for your help (the justified responder) to try prevent a petty flame war, when an actual conversation would serve it infinitely better.

      I apologise if my steering the conversation away from this tack has made you feel I didn’t value your opinion, or the right to defend your people. I was unclear.

      There is no place for racism or ex-racial prejudice on BoingBoing. If you ever have a problem with a comment, I encourage you to ‘eyeball’ it, and one of the mods will take a look (as in #3/#9/#10). It can prevent the need to even defend against ignorance, by removing the root of the problem.

      Happy Victoria Day.

    64. “Woman cuffed for not holding escalator handrail” – Welcome to the free world!

    65. I’ve been on a lot of metros in a lot of cities and all of them have a little sign by their escalators of the little man holding the handrail, HOWEVER nowhere have I ever seen a fine associated with non-compliance. It’s a stupid law and the cop is an idiot.

      Something that has gotten lost in the language argument is that Canada is officially a bilingual country and unofficially a multicultural mosaic. It’s quite different from the states with their not having an official declaration of language and the societal ideal of a melting pot.

      Where some of the frustration comes from today is the assumption of anglophones that because we were required to learn French in school that Quebecers would in turn be required to learn English so that when we meet we’d all be one happy family of Canucks bumbling along as best we can. When west coast anglos for instance visit Montreal hoping to still be able to communicate despite most of their crappy high school French being eroded, and are then met with, in some cases, outright hostility… well there’s shock. We don’t want to kill anyone’s culture here, we just want some consideration as we’ve been doing our best (and we pay taxes too).

      Then there’s the resentment that turns up when we find that French is pretty useless out in Vancouver, and all that time spent forgetting French would have been put to better use learning Mandarin or Japanese. At least it would be helpful when visiting the cool Asian malls in Richmond where the signage is rarely in English. We don’t mind, and we don’t have laws against it here, and everyone seems to get along fine, culture is still preserved.

      We really are okay folks without a ‘culture-killing’ bone in our bodies, and yet friends of mine have returned from Montreal with the odd horror stories of getting yelled at by a clerk at a Burger King, or threatened by strangers on the street. We read stories of those living in Quebec who want to send their kids to an English school but because they’re French aren’t allowed. Or my husband not being able to get a copy of his birth certificate from a federally funded hospital because they refuse to speak English on the phone.

      I’m sorry if we don’t get it all the time but seriously? How is that right?

      And we’re not fans of the cops out here either, whether they’re taser-happy RCMP, bully Translink cops or Vancouver Bulls. Shouldn’t that be enough for us to get along?

    66. Haha, When I was a kid I thought Victoria day was for the city of Victoria. I was thinking, why is there not any Saskatoon day. Just move to Montreal to long ago with some Fransaskois eduction to learn french.

      The Police men here are more friendlier (and cuter, especially when they were in the jeans and have the facial hair) then the police officers in Calgary. A step up for me since the police officers in Calgary pull you over for having a rainbow sticker on your car and warn you that you should not (this is only from personal experience of me and my friends though), cover the rainbow sticker with a bearpride sticker seems to prevent that from happening (probably since they don’t know what it is). That is a different issue. Also if I say ‘Hello or Bonjour’ to an officer here I get a friendly ‘Hello or Bonjour’ back and sometimes they strike conversation with me. Back in Calgary they just glare at me.

      Oh wait, haha I derailed here a bit, since I have not had much dealing with transit cops asides from trying to take pictures of them.

      Wait, would it have been a Bus-Trooper that stopped her, because she was getting fair (or taking out her Opus card), so she was not IN the transit system at the time.

    68. Ugh, sorry for my crappy spelling and grammar. I should have reread before I posted.

    69. Canada is an assemblage of true nations. The federal illusion has run its lifetime and a new model is emerging. It could be useful to a shrinking world to observe how Canada might succeed or fail next. Perhaps some lessons might be derived. Or cautionary examples.

    70. LOL.

      Tak, you’ve become a true diplomat, saying everything and its opposite.

      Sorry, couldn’t resist. LOL

      I do appreciate the conciliatory effort though, immensely, no laughing, not even a smirk.

    75. hm. never heard or seen anything like that happen when I was using the subway..

      in any case, there’s idiot cops everywhere. Guess we just have to file complaints and deal..it’s unfair, but you can’t fight a corrupt system.

    76. And just how do you think that Laval public servants have the highest fare salaries of all of Quebec?

    77. I can’t understand why the title talks about Montreal, and why it mentions a “Montreal/Laval” cop.

      It was in Laval, and that’s pretty much all there is to it. Two cities, two police bodies, two entities.

    78. Why is the Laval city cop issuing tickets? Isn’t enforcing metro rules the jurisdiction of the metro cops?

    79. First of all no one can be arrested this way because this is not a criminal offense therefore the agent is liable to be suing and I hope she will do so …this is improper and this agent should be fire on the spot !

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