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	<title>Comments on: Nokia and Siemens provided surveillance tools used to bust Iranian&#160;activists</title>
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	<link>http://boingboing.net/2009/06/22/nokia-and-siemens-pr.html</link>
	<description>Brain candy for Happy Mutants</description>
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		<title>By: Jonathan</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2009/06/22/nokia-and-siemens-pr.html#comment-523545</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-523545</guid>
		<description>Similar situation with &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/11/business/worldbusiness/11security.html&quot;&gt;US hedge funds investing in Chinese surveillance&lt;/a&gt;, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.boingboing.net/2007/09/11/us-hedgefunds-wax-fa.html&quot;&gt;previously on bb&lt;/a&gt;.

Thanks hannanik. The link to your full article didn&#039;t come through in your post. Here it is: http://fifi.voima.fi/artikkeli/Nokia-connects-now-in-Iran/2893 .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Similar situation with <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/11/business/worldbusiness/11security.html">US hedge funds investing in Chinese surveillance</a>, <a href="http://www.boingboing.net/2007/09/11/us-hedgefunds-wax-fa.html">previously on bb</a>.</p>
<p>Thanks hannanik. The link to your full article didn&#8217;t come through in your post. Here it is: <a href="http://fifi.voima.fi/artikkeli/Nokia-connects-now-in-Iran/2893" rel="nofollow">http://fifi.voima.fi/artikkeli/Nokia-connects-now-in-Iran/2893</a> .</p>
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		<title>By: rollerskater</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2009/06/22/nokia-and-siemens-pr.html#comment-523572</link>
		<dc:creator>rollerskater</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-523572</guid>
		<description>great little fact: Siemens backed the Nazis during WWII.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>great little fact: Siemens backed the Nazis during WWII.  </p>
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		<title>By: SednaBoo</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2009/06/22/nokia-and-siemens-pr.html#comment-523586</link>
		<dc:creator>SednaBoo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-523586</guid>
		<description>#12 rollerskater:

Siemens made the gas chambers and furnaces for the death camps as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#12 rollerskater:</p>
<p>Siemens made the gas chambers and furnaces for the death camps as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2009/06/22/nokia-and-siemens-pr.html#comment-525900</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-525900</guid>
		<description>they&#039;ve trashed their names as bad as yahoo did with china. when will these companies realize helping tyrants massacre freedom fighters is the WORST PR there is!!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>they&#8217;ve trashed their names as bad as yahoo did with china. when will these companies realize helping tyrants massacre freedom fighters is the WORST PR there is!!!!</p>
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		<title>By: Bade</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2009/06/22/nokia-and-siemens-pr.html#comment-523600</link>
		<dc:creator>Bade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-523600</guid>
		<description>Allow me to point out some facts.  Nokia Siemens make (in this case) mobile phone networks.  A MANDATORY part of a mobile phone netowrk is the lawful intercept capabilities.  They can identify where any mobile phone is that is using the network, record calls made by any mobile, record texts incoming and outgoing and record any data that the phone transmits.  The capabilities of the lawful intercept boxes are finite, it cannot monitor every phonecall or data session (all SMS are stored unencrypted in the SMSC - never use a text for any reason, they are not safe and far more expensive than a phonecall).  I have stood up in court in the UK explaining the boxes and how we know the data is accurate and this has lead directly to many convictions for illegal activities.  It is simply a part of the price of using a mobile.  The abuse of this power is the issue, not the existance of the network.

The only way Nokia could avoid putting in such a box was not to sell the the network in the first place.  That would mean no texts, no mobile tweets, no camraphone pictures of the horrors committed right now.  I think a network is better than no network.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Allow me to point out some facts.  Nokia Siemens make (in this case) mobile phone networks.  A MANDATORY part of a mobile phone netowrk is the lawful intercept capabilities.  They can identify where any mobile phone is that is using the network, record calls made by any mobile, record texts incoming and outgoing and record any data that the phone transmits.  The capabilities of the lawful intercept boxes are finite, it cannot monitor every phonecall or data session (all SMS are stored unencrypted in the SMSC &#8211; never use a text for any reason, they are not safe and far more expensive than a phonecall).  I have stood up in court in the UK explaining the boxes and how we know the data is accurate and this has lead directly to many convictions for illegal activities.  It is simply a part of the price of using a mobile.  The abuse of this power is the issue, not the existance of the network.</p>
<p>The only way Nokia could avoid putting in such a box was not to sell the the network in the first place.  That would mean no texts, no mobile tweets, no camraphone pictures of the horrors committed right now.  I think a network is better than no network.</p>
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		<title>By: hannanik</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2009/06/22/nokia-and-siemens-pr.html#comment-523617</link>
		<dc:creator>hannanik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-523617</guid>
		<description>Bade, this is NOT about the lawful intercept capabilities as such, but a separate surveillance system that archives &amp; analyses all the data gathered THROUGH lawful interception. Nokia Siemens Networks admits as much.

If you have time for a PDF, read &lt;a href=&quot;http://bigbrotherawards.net/doqs/000100004315/2007_02_01,siemens_intelligence_platform.pdf&quot;&gt;their own promotional material&lt;/a&gt;. We&#039;re talking about highly effective data mining: for example, possibly millions of phone calls monitored by speech recognition software that raises an alarm when it encounters certain keywords and patterns.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bade, this is NOT about the lawful intercept capabilities as such, but a separate surveillance system that archives &#038; analyses all the data gathered THROUGH lawful interception. Nokia Siemens Networks admits as much.</p>
<p>If you have time for a PDF, read <a href="http://bigbrotherawards.net/doqs/000100004315/2007_02_01,siemens_intelligence_platform.pdf">their own promotional material</a>. We&#8217;re talking about highly effective data mining: for example, possibly millions of phone calls monitored by speech recognition software that raises an alarm when it encounters certain keywords and patterns.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2009/06/22/nokia-and-siemens-pr.html#comment-523891</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-523891</guid>
		<description>What company delivered the motorbikes the Basji are riding?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What company delivered the motorbikes the Basji are riding?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2009/06/22/nokia-and-siemens-pr.html#comment-542324</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-542324</guid>
		<description>Siemens proved by the past that they know how to collaborate, I&#039;m surprised about Nokia in this case.. but business is business and humanity is humanity. THe consummer will judge.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Siemens proved by the past that they know how to collaborate, I&#8217;m surprised about Nokia in this case.. but business is business and humanity is humanity. THe consummer will judge.</p>
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		<title>By: hannanik</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2009/06/22/nokia-and-siemens-pr.html#comment-523384</link>
		<dc:creator>hannanik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-523384</guid>
		<description>Feel free to delete if this is too spammy. I&#039;m plugging my own article.

This morning, I interviewed &lt;a&gt;Nokia Siemens Networks&#039; spokesperson Riitta MÃ¥rd&lt;/a&gt;. 

She refused to give any details about the surveillance system her company sold to Iran, even if the information could help protesters. &quot;We do not release this information about our clients.&quot;

A moment ago, NSN sent out a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nokiasiemensnetworks.com/global/Press/Press%20releases/news-archive/Provision%20of%20Lawful%20Intercept%20capability%20in%20Iran.htm&quot;&gt;press release&lt;/a&gt; with some of the information that MÃ¥rd refused to give me earlier. They&#039;re claiming that they only sold voice monitoring of local calls, no surveillance of the Internet or of international calls. I have no idea how reliable this information is, but I&#039;m glad to see that there&#039;s public pressure about this, and that it&#039;s making the company react.

Other highlights of the interview:

&lt;b&gt;How did you take Iran&#039;s political situation into consideration when negotiating this deal?&lt;/b&gt;

&quot;Extraordinary circumstances like the ones in Iran right now cannot be predicted â€“ it can happen anywhere.&quot;

&lt;b&gt;But it hasn&#039;t exactly been a surprise. The fact that the government keeps a close watch on the opposition has been well known for years.&lt;/b&gt;

&quot;We don&#039;t set conditions like this to our clients. Companies can&#039;t act like that, alone. And after all we&#039;re talking about a system that was designed to increase people&#039;s own safety.&quot;

&lt;b&gt;How was [NSN&#039;s corporate responsibility] policy reflected in the deal with Iran?&lt;/b&gt;

&quot;We do indeed have a strict ethical code for our business partners, and we&#039;ve been very actively making sure that your suppliers don&#039;t use, for example, child labour. We use this code to choose who we buy from.&quot;

&lt;b&gt;But not who you sell to?&lt;/b&gt;

&quot;In Iran&#039;s case, there was no such impediment.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Feel free to delete if this is too spammy. I&#8217;m plugging my own article.</p>
<p>This morning, I interviewed <a>Nokia Siemens Networks&#8217; spokesperson Riitta MÃ¥rd</a>. </p>
<p>She refused to give any details about the surveillance system her company sold to Iran, even if the information could help protesters. &#8220;We do not release this information about our clients.&#8221;</p>
<p>A moment ago, NSN sent out a <a href="http://www.nokiasiemensnetworks.com/global/Press/Press%20releases/news-archive/Provision%20of%20Lawful%20Intercept%20capability%20in%20Iran.htm">press release</a> with some of the information that MÃ¥rd refused to give me earlier. They&#8217;re claiming that they only sold voice monitoring of local calls, no surveillance of the Internet or of international calls. I have no idea how reliable this information is, but I&#8217;m glad to see that there&#8217;s public pressure about this, and that it&#8217;s making the company react.</p>
<p>Other highlights of the interview:</p>
<p><b>How did you take Iran&#8217;s political situation into consideration when negotiating this deal?</b></p>
<p>&#8220;Extraordinary circumstances like the ones in Iran right now cannot be predicted â€“ it can happen anywhere.&#8221;</p>
<p><b>But it hasn&#8217;t exactly been a surprise. The fact that the government keeps a close watch on the opposition has been well known for years.</b></p>
<p>&#8220;We don&#8217;t set conditions like this to our clients. Companies can&#8217;t act like that, alone. And after all we&#8217;re talking about a system that was designed to increase people&#8217;s own safety.&#8221;</p>
<p><b>How was [NSN's corporate responsibility] policy reflected in the deal with Iran?</b></p>
<p>&#8220;We do indeed have a strict ethical code for our business partners, and we&#8217;ve been very actively making sure that your suppliers don&#8217;t use, for example, child labour. We use this code to choose who we buy from.&#8221;</p>
<p><b>But not who you sell to?</b></p>
<p>&#8220;In Iran&#8217;s case, there was no such impediment.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: cholten99</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2009/06/22/nokia-and-siemens-pr.html#comment-523388</link>
		<dc:creator>cholten99</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-523388</guid>
		<description>
Cory,

As a fellow ORG member I&#039;m appalled if this is true but as an employee of Nokia I&#039;m fairly sure it&#039;s not (or at least not as it is drafted). Well, if it is then we (Nokia employees) should be raising hell about it internally.

If you&#039;re about in London and would like me to find someone here you can speak to in person about it I&#039;ll do my best...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cory,</p>
<p>As a fellow ORG member I&#8217;m appalled if this is true but as an employee of Nokia I&#8217;m fairly sure it&#8217;s not (or at least not as it is drafted). Well, if it is then we (Nokia employees) should be raising hell about it internally.</p>
<p>If you&#8217;re about in London and would like me to find someone here you can speak to in person about it I&#8217;ll do my best&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: BadStoryDan</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2009/06/22/nokia-and-siemens-pr.html#comment-523656</link>
		<dc:creator>BadStoryDan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-523656</guid>
		<description>AFAIC, &#039;Surveillance&#039; and &#039;Data Mining&#039; are two totally different tasks. Surveillance is concerned with eavesdropping on a known target&#039;s calls or other communications. This, OTOH, is eavesdropping on EVERYONE and seeing what you can find. Not OK.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AFAIC, &#8216;Surveillance&#8217; and &#8216;Data Mining&#8217; are two totally different tasks. Surveillance is concerned with eavesdropping on a known target&#8217;s calls or other communications. This, OTOH, is eavesdropping on EVERYONE and seeing what you can find. Not OK.</p>
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		<title>By: mdh</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2009/06/22/nokia-and-siemens-pr.html#comment-523402</link>
		<dc:creator>mdh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-523402</guid>
		<description>With any luck this will prove that all the surveillance in the world won&#039;t snuff liberty. 

Alternately, it&#039;s beta testing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With any luck this will prove that all the surveillance in the world won&#8217;t snuff liberty. </p>
<p>Alternately, it&#8217;s beta testing.</p>
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		<title>By: The Jones Ultimatum</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2009/06/22/nokia-and-siemens-pr.html#comment-523412</link>
		<dc:creator>The Jones Ultimatum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-523412</guid>
		<description>BURN your Nokia.
Liberate yourself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BURN your Nokia.<br />
Liberate yourself.</p>
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		<title>By: hannanik</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2009/06/22/nokia-and-siemens-pr.html#comment-523416</link>
		<dc:creator>hannanik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-523416</guid>
		<description>Argh. Link missing from my original post. Here goes:

&lt;a href=&quot;http://fifi.voima.fi/artikkeli/Nokia-connects-now-in-Iran/2893&quot;&gt;Nokia connects â€“ now in Iran&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Argh. Link missing from my original post. Here goes:</p>
<p><a href="http://fifi.voima.fi/artikkeli/Nokia-connects-now-in-Iran/2893">Nokia connects â€“ now in Iran</a></p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2009/06/22/nokia-and-siemens-pr.html#comment-523419</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-523419</guid>
		<description>rot in hell NOKIA</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>rot in hell NOKIA</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2009/06/22/nokia-and-siemens-pr.html#comment-523422</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-523422</guid>
		<description>boycott Nokia-Siemens technologies </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>boycott Nokia-Siemens technologies </p>
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		<title>By: Takuan</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2009/06/22/nokia-and-siemens-pr.html#comment-523426</link>
		<dc:creator>Takuan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-523426</guid>
		<description>if they made it, they know the vulnerabilities and work arounds. Well?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>if they made it, they know the vulnerabilities and work arounds. Well?</p>
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		<title>By: Nword</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2009/06/22/nokia-and-siemens-pr.html#comment-523430</link>
		<dc:creator>Nword</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-523430</guid>
		<description>Whatever.

When did people start expecting large multinational companies to act in ethical or political manners?

These companies sell a tool, which will make them money. As long as the tool they&#039;re selling has legitimate uses (and it does), it&#039;s kinda hard to blame them for doing what business does best.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whatever.</p>
<p>When did people start expecting large multinational companies to act in ethical or political manners?</p>
<p>These companies sell a tool, which will make them money. As long as the tool they&#8217;re selling has legitimate uses (and it does), it&#8217;s kinda hard to blame them for doing what business does best.</p>
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		<title>By: Bloodboiler</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2009/06/22/nokia-and-siemens-pr.html#comment-523689</link>
		<dc:creator>Bloodboiler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-523689</guid>
		<description>Germans (Siemens) claiming they were just following orders? That sounds familiar.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Germans (Siemens) claiming they were just following orders? That sounds familiar.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2009/06/22/nokia-and-siemens-pr.html#comment-524462</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-524462</guid>
		<description>Is there software that would allow Iranian citizens to thwart this deep-packet data mining through a re-configuration as to how the data is put together? If this software was to be open-sourced and if the information as to its availability was circulated, it might prevent deaths and imprisonment.

Jeff Newman</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is there software that would allow Iranian citizens to thwart this deep-packet data mining through a re-configuration as to how the data is put together? If this software was to be open-sourced and if the information as to its availability was circulated, it might prevent deaths and imprisonment.</p>
<p>Jeff Newman</p>
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		<title>By: Bade</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2009/06/22/nokia-and-siemens-pr.html#comment-523700</link>
		<dc:creator>Bade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-523700</guid>
		<description>Intersting PDF Hannanik, it seems like a commercialised version of ECHELON for countries who are not in the US/UK/AUS intelligence gathering alliance.  I do think data mining is a bad thing, but nearly everything has been monitored for decades.  It is the use and abuse of that info that is heinous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Intersting PDF Hannanik, it seems like a commercialised version of ECHELON for countries who are not in the US/UK/AUS intelligence gathering alliance.  I do think data mining is a bad thing, but nearly everything has been monitored for decades.  It is the use and abuse of that info that is heinous.</p>
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		<title>By: Intersection</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2009/06/22/nokia-and-siemens-pr.html#comment-523977</link>
		<dc:creator>Intersection</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-523977</guid>
		<description>nword... You are right, corporations mostly have no souls and they are mainly just trying to make money. But, we as citizens and consumers often do have souls and we every day we make decisions with our spending and investments. It is up to regular people to raise hell as users of a company&#039;s goods. This is how we keep companies honest and provide them with the concience that our economic system doesn&#039;t provide itself. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>nword&#8230; You are right, corporations mostly have no souls and they are mainly just trying to make money. But, we as citizens and consumers often do have souls and we every day we make decisions with our spending and investments. It is up to regular people to raise hell as users of a company&#8217;s goods. This is how we keep companies honest and provide them with the concience that our economic system doesn&#8217;t provide itself. </p>
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		<title>By: hershmire</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2009/06/22/nokia-and-siemens-pr.html#comment-523732</link>
		<dc:creator>hershmire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-523732</guid>
		<description>Isn&#039;t there a US law that forbids US companies* from doing business with Iran since the US have official sanctions against them? Shouldn&#039;t the US just tell Siemens &amp; Nokia they can&#039;t do business within its borders if they want to sell surveillance technology to Iran?

*Yes, I know they aren&#039;t US companies, but they have US subsidiaries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t there a US law that forbids US companies* from doing business with Iran since the US have official sanctions against them? Shouldn&#8217;t the US just tell Siemens &#038; Nokia they can&#8217;t do business within its borders if they want to sell surveillance technology to Iran?</p>
<p>*Yes, I know they aren&#8217;t US companies, but they have US subsidiaries.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2009/06/22/nokia-and-siemens-pr.html#comment-523755</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-523755</guid>
		<description>How else would the USA get their intelligence if Nokia/Siemens don&#039;t give it to them (via their subsidiaries)?
The USA has asked the Australians to intercept domestic US telephone conversations for them, something they themselves are not lawfully allowed to do.  They have asked the Turks and Estonians to torture suspects for them, because, oh wait, they did do some of it themselves...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How else would the USA get their intelligence if Nokia/Siemens don&#8217;t give it to them (via their subsidiaries)?<br />
The USA has asked the Australians to intercept domestic US telephone conversations for them, something they themselves are not lawfully allowed to do.  They have asked the Turks and Estonians to torture suspects for them, because, oh wait, they did do some of it themselves&#8230;</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2009/06/22/nokia-and-siemens-pr.html#comment-523500</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-523500</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s what you get when corporatism gets out of control; many of us warned about that and got labeled as commies.
Surprise! If you don&#039;t put limits to the power of corporations you get something that&#039;s nearly identical to extreme communism in the way common people is getting screwed from those in power.

The economic world follows rules that don&#039;t take into account the rights of people because the economic world is a system where the dominant creature is the corporation, not the human being, as people couldn&#039;t care less about ants in the normal world.
In this context, one could state that there&#039;s no such thing as democracy in any &quot;western&quot; developed country because economic development requires being strongly integrated  into that corrupt system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s what you get when corporatism gets out of control; many of us warned about that and got labeled as commies.<br />
Surprise! If you don&#8217;t put limits to the power of corporations you get something that&#8217;s nearly identical to extreme communism in the way common people is getting screwed from those in power.</p>
<p>The economic world follows rules that don&#8217;t take into account the rights of people because the economic world is a system where the dominant creature is the corporation, not the human being, as people couldn&#8217;t care less about ants in the normal world.<br />
In this context, one could state that there&#8217;s no such thing as democracy in any &#8220;western&#8221; developed country because economic development requires being strongly integrated  into that corrupt system.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2009/06/22/nokia-and-siemens-pr.html#comment-528877</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-528877</guid>
		<description>these f&#039;ing multinationals - it is the same as selling gas to the Nazis or machetes to the Hutu govt in Rwanda in 1994 and saying &quot;well we sold it for lawful means, and if committing genocide is lawful in those countries it is not our fault.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>these f&#8217;ing multinationals &#8211; it is the same as selling gas to the Nazis or machetes to the Hutu govt in Rwanda in 1994 and saying &#8220;well we sold it for lawful means, and if committing genocide is lawful in those countries it is not our fault.&#8221;</p>
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