Uighur crisis in Xinjiang: updates, link roundup, images.

A quick roundup of news links related to the ongoing violent clashes in China's Xinjiang region between Han Chinese and ethnic Uighurs (who consider the region a sovereign nation - in many respects, the conflict is similar to that of Tibet.)

♦ Image above, from an extensive Boston Globe photo-essay which contains some graphic content: "An ethnic Uighur woman looks out the window of an apartment one day after Han Chinese mobs attacked the compound in Urumqi, China on Wednesday, July 8, 2009. (AP Photo/Ng Han Guan)"

♦ From China's state mouthpiece, People's Daily, calls to "punish Facebook" (I'm visualizing stern, uniformed Communist party officials publicly spanking Zuckerberg). Snip: "Over 90 percent of (...) netizens said that 'Xinjiang independence' activists, carrying out this type of 'online activity' severely violates China's national interests and agreed that Facebook should immediately shut down the 'Xinjiang independence" online group."

♦ Xinhua would like you to know that everything is "normal again" in the capital city of Urumqi, and that people are happily wandering the streets in search of watermelon, kebabs, and eggplant.

♦ Reuters: "Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan said Friday genocide was being committed in China's northwest province of Xinjiang and called on Chinese authorities to intervene to prevent more deaths."

♦ CSM on China's savvier media strategy: "Taking a cue from Western PR tactics, Beijing moved away from trying to block coverage altogether - and was benefited by doing so."

♦ A report filed nearly 10 years ago by Rebecca MacKinnon, then CNN's Beijing bureau chief: "Rumblings of discontent among ethnic Muslims on China's Asian frontier"

♦ NYT reports the crackdown now extends to mosques: "Chinese authorities banned prayer gatherings at mosques here on Friday, the principal day of prayer for Muslims, as security officials tried to prevent further ethnic violence in the Xinjiang region."

(most links in this post via Rebecca MacKinnon)

• [Takuan]

  the Chinese economic boom has been at the expense of Tibetan and Uighur resources. If China had purchased honestly and shared fairly, there would be far less inequity and trouble now. It has always been a racist relationship based on resource rape. That is why the witnesses must be liquidated.

• [toogreen]

  Look guys I’m not denying the fact that China has bad records when it comes to human rights and freedom on the internet and so on… I’m not on “their side” or anything, but it’s not like you just write something they don’t like on a blog and they immediately come and get you either! I’ve been writing on blogs and expressing my opinions (which are far from always favorable to China) openly for years and yet I’m still here writing freely…

  As long as you don’t go out and rub a bank or kill people, you’re pretty much as “free” as anywhere else, you know… Surely not as much as in many western countries, that’s a fact, but you guys make it sound as if China’s this place where they will shoot you if you walk by the sidewalk… Come on now it’s not THAT bad.

  Definitely not bad enough to choose 1930s Tibet over modern China, that’s for sure! Which WAS my point, that’s all. You can go back to your China bashing now, which I don’t all disagree with, but at least please admit that it was a silly statement from Antinous to say he’d rather live in shit and terror than comfortably and easily as it is possible now in – yes, China…

• [Takuan]

  http://www.cfr.org/publication/17812/

• [Takuan]

  framed
  http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/uighurs-jailed-for-hypodermic-attacks-amid-chinese-tension-1786871.html

• [Takuan]

  http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25839098-23109,00.html

• [Takuan]

  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/8169123.stm

• [Takuan]

  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8217427.stm

• [sylkworm]

  Any nation that can win the fight to be independent, is.

  Does this mean that any nation that can not win the fight for independence does not deserve it?

  as to the Human Wave wiki, do note that the whole article makes specific reference to my point, something you attempted to avoid with cherry picking a sentence or two.

  Please explain. What exactly is your point? That the PLA hasn’t used it since 1953?

• [Takuan]

  http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/26/china-arabic-tv-channel

• [sylkworm]

  BTW, Xeni, it might be helpful to post articles from news agencies that actually have reporters in Urumqi, and can give first hand accounts of what’s going on, instead of passing on unfounded speculation or simply parroting back the official government news. Rl jrnlsm? Wht cncpt!!!

  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/5794696/Chinese-authorities-ban-Uighurs-from-mosques.html

  • [Antinous / Moderator]

    sylkworm,

    We appreciate credible news links, but please don’t be rude about it next time.

• [toogreen]

  (this is a re-post as i was not logged-in first time)

  @Antinous:

  To the question:
  a
  “would you want to live in 1930′s Tibet?”

  You answered:

  “Far more than I would want to live in the Peoples Republic of China in any decade”

  You must be joking, right? That can’t be serious!!

  I’m not really on any side in this issue, because I WASN’T THERE, I DIDN’T SEE WHAT EXACTLY HAPPENED, therefore I feel like I’m not entitled to have a proper opinion on the matter (perhaps you should do the same). As for the media, I do not trust either side so I have no idea who to believe (If you think many western medias are not biased too, you’re quite naive). But one thing’s for sure, I’m just your regular Canadian caucasian that has been working in China for the last 6 years…

  And TRUST me… Between living in poor 1930′s Tibet as a slave, or in now modern, comfortable, all-you-need-at-hand/starbucks-mcdonalds-burgerking-and-so-on Shanghai of 2009, you wouldn’t wonder too long which one to pick…

  Btw I DO know personally a few Chinese people who have been through Mao’s cultural revolution, and while they would certainly rather forget these 10 awful years of their life, today they are wealthy, happy people who have everything they need.

  So come on man, please next time think twice before talking such nonsense!

  • [Antinous / Moderator]

    modern, comfortable, all-you-need-at-hand/starbucks-mcdonalds-burgerking-and-so-on Shanghai of 2009

    Trading in freedom for Burger King – priceless. My original statement stands. In fact, it stands a little taller.

• [Takuan]

  http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/07/uighur-protest-urumqi-china

• [Takuan]

  ” On Sunday July 5, Uyghur residents in Urumqi, the capital of Chinese Government occupied East Turkistan (referred to by the Chinese Government as the province of Xinjiang), engaged in peaceful protests that escalated to violence due to the heavy handed and brutal response of Chinese security forces.
  Official Chinese Government news sources admit to close to 200 dead and almost 1000 injured, but underground reports smuggled out of the country indicate that the numbers are far higher. As of today, reports allege that more than 410 people are known to have been killed, 1500 injured, and 5000 arrested. A curfew is in place, and the death count continues to grow. Reports also indicate that the protests, and brutal government response, have spread to other cities and the countryside.

  Communication systems have been cut, and Uyghur Canadians are desperate with worry for their loved ones, and for their homeland. They are angry that the Chinese Government’s ongoing repression of people it calls “ethnic minorities” continues unabated. The Chinese Government’s policies and practices in East Turkistan amount to colonialism in its most brutal form.
  In reference to the current crackdown, BBC reporter Chris Hogg said “the violence is comparable to Tiananmen Square”: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8135203.stm

  Amnesty International has called for an immediate investigation: http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=18301

• [Takuan]

  http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j794twyjYyjeOIdsKWwzCUhsgvUAD9AJNPSG0

• [sylkworm]

  Takuan, so does that mean the USA is raping Alaskan and Texan oil, West Virginian and Pennsylvanian coal?

  BTW, I’m going to help you and post some more stories:

  “Uighurs shot dead after police attacked in Chinese city of Urumqi”
  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/5817749/Uighurs-shot-dead-after-police-attacked-in-Chinese-city-of-Urumqi.html

  “China bans public mourning in Urumqi”
  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/5811104/China-bans-public-mourning-in-Urumqi.html

  You may commence with the China bashing.

• [Takuan]

  they admit one tenth, traditionally

  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8157715.stm

• [mdh]

  “ad hominem”

  You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

• [Takuan]

  I believe he said:
  http://www.tibet.com/future.html

  and pointing out that you are dishonestly serving the propaganda and political machinations of the communist party of China by continuing to spew a revised version of history is hardly “ad hominem”.

  I find it vile in the extreme that you think you can repeat such cynical lies here and think they will be tolerated. Any moment I suppose you will start with the “I’m the real victim here!” Forget the double-think, we have unfettered access to Google.

• [sylkworm]

  @Takuan, you are misinterpreting your own link. Police crackdown was not the cause the violence nor the death. The Tiananmen Square quote was taken out of context, and was only used to measure the scale of carnage, not who was causing it.

  If you read the article I posted earlier, it’s fairly obvious the Chinese Security Forces are just trying to restore law and order and prevent escalation of the violence. Most of the deaths and injuries occured before the police deployed, and were perpetrated by roaming gangs of Han and Uighur randomly attacking people on the streets.

  Heck, even Al Jazeera is more even handed (although they still misrepresent the video of Nepalese Police beating up Tibetans as Chinese).

  http://www.youtube.com/user/AlJazeeraEnglish#play/uploads/26/KwCHfBfF1m4

• [sylkworm]

  Despite your anarchist wetdreams, Xinjiang is already off the front pages and become a forgotten incident buried under the latest news-porn, just like I originally said it was going to be. Reyiba Kadeer is no Dalai Lama and the Uighurs aren’t as media savvy as the Tibetan exiles. The western world has already moved on to less depressing news like Sotomayor and latest Harry Potter. The only ones still screaming about it are the East Turkistan faction and Al Qaeida, and (let’s face it) they aren’t doing the Uighurs any favors by getting involved.

  I already established that you are beyond reasonable discussion, but I find it curious that you gleefully predict the destruction of a nation that has suffered far worse disasters. Do you honestly think that where the Cultural Revolution didn’t break China, that this would? When the great famine (far more than 3 missed meals), pitched battles in major cities between Red Guard factions, and the death one of the most popular political figures in its history followed by an internal struggle for succession; all of them combined didn’t loosen the Communist Party’s hold, and you think a few days of ethnic riots will do the trick?

  You are more than welcome to your fantasies of course. Keep in mind that I’ll have this article bookmarked and saved on my HD for future reference. Have fun posting.

• [Takuan]

  perhaps they are. We are talking about China though, aren’t we? Do you also subscribe to the philosophy that two wrongs don’t make a right but three do? Your position is morally bankrupt. In time you may see this, when it is your turn.

  Why is it that you link evil behaviour by the current Chinese government with the Chinese people? Can you not see the difference? When Mao was murdering his fifty million (Han, mostly) would you have had the courage to oppose him openly as you seem to find the courage today to support the extermination of the Tibetans and Uighurs?

• [sylkworm]

  “Although the authorities have declined to breakdown the dead on ethnic lines, reports of casualty lists from some hospitals and a gathering amount of eyewitness testimony suggest that many of the victims of Sunday’s violence were indeed Han. ”

  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/5769839/Eyewtiness-tensions-high-on-the-streets-of-Urumqi.html

  • [Antinous / Moderator]

    From your link, sylkworm:

    “Kill the Uighurs! Kill all Uighurs!” chanted a crowd of more than ten thousand Han that surged back and forth through the streets armed with any weapons that came to hand: there were claw-hammers and wrenches; axes and scaffolding poles; snooker cues and baseball bats.

    “Didn’t you hear, these Uighurs they chopped the heads off a hundred Han and left their bodies in the streets,” volunteered a man wielding a table leg, “They killed even the small children, they are barbarians and the government must act to crush them now.”

    It began almost two weeks ago with reports that a Han Chinese mob had beaten a group of Uighur toy factory workers in the southern province of Guangdong and, crucially, had been allowed to get away with it.

    So, what was your point again?

• [Takuan]

  nope. It’s very simple. The Uighurs are a distinct people that happen to be sitting on a lot of resources Beijing wants. Like Tibet. Like Tibet, Beijing has no problem with oppressing, marginalizing, jailing, liquidating and flooding out the locals with train loads of ethnic Han Chinese. It is a simple, racist holocaust conducted with deliberate planning and intent.

  In a few decades Beijing hopes that all Tibetans and all Uighurs will be dead or assimilated to the point of cultural nonexistence. If they succeed, who will be next?

• [Takuan]

  “forgotten incident buried” why so gleeful? Don’t you want the Uighurs to have self-determination? Are they your enemy or something? Do you take pleasure in their deaths, imprisonments and tortures? What did they ever do to you? Like people anywhere, they just want to live in peace and freedom.

• [sylkworm]

  you’re the one saying that Asians don’t value freedom or human rights.

  Saying they are willing to trade a little personal freedom for the collective good, is not the same as saying they don’t value freedom or human rights at all. Sorry, your all-or-nothing worldview, while entertaining, doesn’t hold up to careful scrutiny. Nor will you justify yourself by dragging everything under the sun into the discussion, in order cover up the fact that you were utterly wrong and don’t care to inform yourself about the situation to which you rabidly post about.

• [Takuan]

  http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/NEWS-World-US-Obama-may-meet-Dalai-Lama-as-Beijing-seethes/articleshow/4794138.cms

• [sylkworm]

  Takuan, racist much? Since the chinese governance of Tibet and Xinjiang, living standards have increased; most people have now have access to basic food, clothing and medicine; and basic infrastructure like roads, electricty, and indoor plumbing have been built. The chinese government also gives ethnic minorities (like Uighurs and Tibetans) scholarships and lowered test-score requiremetns to go to some of the most prestigious universities in China.

  Yup, definitely sounds like cultural genocide…

• [Takuan]

  heh heh~! purty good there sylky! Now why won’t they let them vote?

• [amdela80]

  Facebook is now blocked in all of China. Maybe we’ll get it back, maybe not.

  This round of violence was started by Han Chinese attacking Uighyr workers at a factory.

• [Takuan]

  oh dear, you are only a party hack.

• [toogreen]

  @Takuan

  Thanks for your link to the Guardian site, I clicked somewhere & stumbled upon the other side of the story:

  http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/11/urumqi-uighur-violence-victim-story

  Please do watch the video in the url. Sure the Uighurs are oppressed people, and I can understand their frustrations with Chinese, but did all these Han who died or survived those attacks really deserve such brutal beatings and murdering??

  I’m all for justice in this conflict, but I don’t believe all this violence (from both sides) is going to help achieve anything good… There are better ways to protest than going into a rage and smashing random, innocent people’s faces/heads!

• [sylkworm]

  @Antinous

  That’s from the ethnic Hans, not the Chinese Security force who are trying to play the barroom bouncer and trying to keep the two groups separated.

  My *point*, is that this is not Chinese government oppression, but ethnic tensions coming to a boil: like the equivalent of the Chicago Race Riots.

  • [Antinous / Moderator]

    My *point*, is that this is not Chinese government oppression, but ethnic tensions coming to a boil

    I don’t disagree with that. But even if Beijing takes an even-handed approach to the problem, provincial officials will almost certainly end up suppressing the Uighurs in favor of the Han. Provincial officials in China (or anywhere) are not noted for their integrity, so much as nepotism, cronyism and graft.

• [Takuan]

  how about a laogai camp? Do they have Starbucks?
  http://www.laogai.org/

• [Takuan]

  http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/why-the-west-is-silent-on-rioting-in-xinjiang/article1216861/

  heh!

  “The Uyghurs lack a charismatic figure such as the Dalai Lama to lead them. But China, perhaps unwittingly, may provide the solution. It is likening Ms. Kadeer to the Dalai Lama, saying they are both “separatists.” The People’s Daily has actually called her the “Uyghur Dalai Lama” and warned the Nobel committee not to award her the Peace Prize. Beijing may not realize it, but likening Rebiya Kadeer to the Dalai Lama may actually win her supporters in the West.”

• [Takuan]

  http://www.uyghuramerican.org/articles/595/1/Biographical-sketch-of-Rebiya-Kadeer/Biographical-sketch-of-Rebiya-Kadeer.html

• [sylkworm]

  That’s right Takuan. Anyone who doesn’t agree with you must be brainwashed by the Communist Party. Oh wait, I grew up in the States and I’ve been here for the last 25 years. Damn, that Communist pull is strong. It must be because I’m a Han and there’s no way we can resist believing Xinhua news or have independent thought, because it’s in our genes.

  Feel free to try again.

• [Takuan]

  (filthy little minorities always vote the wrong way, don’t they?)

• [Takuan]

  what percentage of Uighurs have died, relative to their total population versus Han? This is the calculus of Stalin, Mao and the Beijing Politburo. Who invented the Human Wave attack?

• [Takuan]

  http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_asiapacific/view/442408/1/.html

• [Takuan]

  http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iNtK7rB1SJb5H3kStNFQaBgFsfMQ

• [Takuan]

  you don’t have to be conscious of it.

• [Takuan]

  let’s see.. Amnesty International versus the Communist Party of China’s official propaganda organ…hmmmm, which one to believe?….

  http://www.amnestyusa.org/individuals-at-risk/priority-cases/special-focus-cases/page.do?id=1101237

• [Takuan]

  http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idINIndia-41085320090716

• [Takuan]

  http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-07-16-voa13.cfm

• [sylkworm]

  Don’t worry Takuan. I’m sure if you just post enough, no one will be able to remember how utterly wrong you were.

• [Takuan]

  http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2009/07/a-chinese-worker-has-killed-himself-after-a-fourth-generation-iphone-prototype-he-was-responsible-for-disappeared—the-25-y.html?csp=34

• [sylkworm]

  “But even if Beijing takes an even-handed approach to the problem, provincial officials will almost certainly end up suppressing the Uighurs in favor of the Han. Provincial officials in China (or anywhere) are not noted for their integrity, so much as nepotism, cronyism and graft.”

  This is definitely possible, but it is still speculation yet. I agree that this is definitely the potential for harsh government reprisals, but one thing the Party is good at is maintaining stability and control. I hope that this latest round of violence will show Beijing (and maybe general Chinese society) that it can no longer afford to ignore grievances of its minorities, and that ethnic tensions left on its own *will* become a threat to the country’s stability and perhaps survival.

• [Takuan]

  http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/08/04/chinese-survey-finds-prostitutes-more-trusted-than-officials/

• [mr.skeleton]

  Hey ya’ll,
  We compiled about ten news sources into a report for this week’s Global Pulse on Link TV:

  http://www.linktv.org/video/4086/uighurs-vs-han-chinas-west-side-story

• [Takuan]

  http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Docid=3658424&file=4

• [IamInnocent]

  progress after all

  The trick is to descend low enough so anything will feel like progress.

• [Takuan]

  http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/jul/31/china-residents-prosecute-government-environment

• [sylkworm]

  Now that communism is dead, sympathizers of the Dalai Lama, many of whom were sympathizers of Mao Zedong, seem to have forgotten what communism was all about. Communism was a political ideology obsessed with economic equality. Communism adjudged who was good and who was bad on the basis of its fatally flawed economic theory. To communist true believers the relevant question was to which economic class do you belong. Are you a capitalist victimizer or a proletarian victim? Ethnicity to communism was always irrelevant.

  The Chinese Communists were no exception. They committed their atrocities because they were fanatical radical egalitarians, “coercive egalitarians.” The Lamaist theocracy was targeted because it engaged in the economic exploitation of Tibet’s serfs.

  When Red Guards vandalized monasteries in Tibet they were doing precisely the same thing to Zen Buddhist monasteries, Taoist monasteries, Christian churches, Jewish synagogues all over the rest of China. They were not doing anything so narrowly parochial as singling out the Tibetan subculture for “cultural genocide.” Rather they were motivated by disgust for what they perceived as vestiges of unjust economic systems throughout China.

  The Dalai Lama’s allegation that Chinese Communist violence against Tibet’s serf-owning elite was racially motivated ethnic cleansing is a red herring. Chinese Communists were evil because they were coercive egalitarians. Chinese Communists were never racist.

  From: http://www.index-china.com/index-english/Tibet-s.html

  • [Antinous / Moderator]

    The Dalai Lama’s allegation that Chinese Communist violence against Tibet’s serf-owning elite was racially motivated ethnic cleansing is a red herring.

    Ignoring the fact that life in China was as bad or worse than life in Tibet while shouting “ZOMG!!!!! SERFDOM!!!!” is a red herring. A big, fat, red herring that happens to be green and smell like plastic lawn.

• [sylkworm]

  @MDH: “ad hominem” — consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.

  e.g. I am just a “party hack”, therefore everything I say is invalid. Good enough for you?

  @Antinous, you are being unrealistic. China is a huge country, by it’s nature hard to police. By your logic, America is still a slave country because there are Coyotes smuggling people into sweatshops from Mexico.

  There are indeed some very sad events in China’s history. But go into the countryside of China ask anyone off the record what they think of the Communist Party. While they won’t necessary agree with every policy, almost all will say that overall the Communist Party was beneficial for the Chinese people.

  As far as Tibet, I don’t see how you can argue with the historical facts. It was a Feudal society (you can’t deny that) and a very very under-development country, in which 99% of the population were illiterate serfs living on subsistence farming with no personal freedoms and almost no access to running water, electricity, and medicine. I won’t deny that the Chinese did some pretty bad things after they took over, but come on: would you want to live in 1930′s Tibet? Believe or not (at least in Beijing) they really did think they were doing the Tibetan people a favor. Compared to the British take-over of Tibet in 1904, the Chinese wore kid gloves: gave the capture Tibetan soldiers food & money, lectured them about communist ideals, and sent them home. Sure the Chinese weren’t saints liberating their poor Tibetan brothers, but it’s utterly ludicrous to suggest that pre-1950′s Tibet was some kind of enlightened paradise for anyone that wasn’t a Lama.

  • [Antinous / Moderator]

    it’s utterly ludicrous to suggest that pre-1950′s Tibet was some kind of enlightened paradise for anyone that wasn’t a Lama.

    The point, which you have so delicately sidestepped, is that for most of its history, the Peoples Republic of China has been far worse than pre-1950 Tibet. I’m quite certain that Mao thought that he was doing everyone a favor during the Cultural Revolution. The millions of Chinese people whose lives were destroyed might think differently.

    would you want to live in 1930′s Tibet?

    Far more than I would want to live in the Peoples Republic of China in any decade. Maybe I’m just being petit bourgeois and self-indulgent, but I find wholesale slaughter and displacement of millions for ideological reasons a bit disruptive. And what makes you think that Tibet wouldn’t have ended serfdom on its own? Funnily enough, many countries have made progress in human rights without China to enforce it via repression and slaughter.

• [Takuan]

  fight ain’t over yet.

• [sylkworm]

  @55, Actually I agree with you, although I’m not sure if giving more freedoms would necessarily equate to reduction of ethnic tensions. A good portion of the tension necessarily comes from cultural differences and a lack of awareness on the Han majority, but you are right that general censorship probably exacerbates the ethnic tensions.

  As far as voting is concerned, I remain unconvinced that unfettered democratization is the universal answer. How much good did free voting do for Georgia or Russia (who both had suspiciously one-sided elections)? Russia stands as a sharp warning, BTW, for many Chinese democratic reformers as to what can happen when a communist state suddenly implodes uncontrollably, leaving a power vacuum to anyone with the means to grab it.

  @Takuan, for someone posting so many links, you remain seeming oblivious as to what exactly happened. Read my links please. The Al-Jazeera youtube cast is a rather good non-western/non-chinese biased source, that manages to break down the events.

  1. 6/25 — In Guandong, 2 Uighur workers were killed as part of a brawl with Han Chinese workers (not Xinjiang, look on a map).
  2. 7/5 — In Xinjiang, A peaceful protest by Uighurs against the treatment of the 2 killed in Guandong is forcibly dispersed in a clash with the Chinese Police, who use tasers and electric prodes.
  3. 7/5 — Shortly afterwards, looting and burning of cars occur. Eye-witness reports of roaming bands of Uighurs (armed with clubs & knives) attack random Hans on the street. After the first day’s riot, Xinhua reported that 156 people were killed, of whom 129 were men and 27 women and 1,080 injured. The World Uyghur Congress has claimed that the death toll was much higher, at around 600.[...] Chinese authorities later stated that, of the 156 reportedly killed, 33 were Uyghur, and 123 were Han.
  4. On 7 July, there were large-scale armed demonstrations[8] by ethnic Han in Ãœrümqi. The Times reported that smaller fights were frequently breaking out between Uyghurs and Hans, and that groups of Han citizens had organized to take revenge on “Uyghur mobs”.
  5. On 10 July, due to the strict curfew, some Hui and Uyghurs demanded the government to reopen mosques for Jumu’ah. The authority allowed at least two mosques to open, but after the prayer at the White Mosque, several hundred people were gathered for a demonstration over people detained after the riot.

  [ All quotes taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_2009_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_riots ]

• [sylkworm]

  @Takuan. His Holiness hasn’t argued for Tibetan Indepdences since the 1990′s when that was published.

  Yet the Dalai Lama has democratised his “government-in-exile”, and remains more moderate than many of his followers. Not only does he accept Chinese sovereignty, arguing instead for a “middle way” of genuine autonomy within China—a compromise he has repeatedly to defend from the criticism of more radical Tibetans that it is leading nowhere. Also, the Dalai Lama is unwavering in his opposition to violence.

  [March, 2009]

  http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13257886

  You are accusing me of being a mindless voice of the Communist Party, without actually disputing any of the points I made. That’s pretty much the textbook definition of “ad hominem”. In fact, it’s pretty funny that in the very next paragraph, after claiming not to use “ad hominem”, you then attempt to put words in my mouth, painting me as a liar and a self-victimiser. I’m starting to wonder, Takuan, if you are actually capable of having a rational open discussion without assassinating the character of any people who happen disagree with you.

• [bmcraec]

  Re: ♦ A report filed nearly 10 years ago by Rebecca MacKinnon, then CNN’s Beijing bureau chief: “Rumblings of discontent among ethnic Muslims on China’s Asian frontier”

  Last time I thought about this, “ethnic Muslims” couldn’t exist. Muslim describes a religion, not a genetic rootstock.

• [Takuan]

  you think you know “exactly what happened” do you?

• [Takuan]

  peasants all, are they? You will find not everyone wishes to be a second class citizen. Especially in their own country. And most especially under a government already proven corrupt with its own citizens.

  China has already overreached, the consequences follow. It behooves the rest of the world to limit the humanitarian damage. Let us see what the next year brings, the economic ripples are still spreading and it only takes three missed meals to inflame revolution.

  Do carry on Worm, we are watching and will continue to correct you as required.

• [sylkworm]

  I’ll repost this from the other thread. First link is a feed from a South Korean source showing the aftermath of the Uighur riots of 7/5. Second link is apparently a hand-held video of the incident in Guandong that sparked this incident.

  *** GRAPHIC VIDEO ***
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXiz0YoCzjo
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dh7zpztz1tA
  *** GRAPHIC VIDEO ***

• [Takuan]

  http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia-pacific/2009/07/20097725217198672.html

• [mdh]

  That’s pretty much the textbook definition of “ad hominem”.

  really, it isn’t. Calling you a tool of the communists is his opinion.

  Calling you a tool is ad hominem.

• [Takuan]

  from the Salon review of Ellen Shell’s “Cheap, The high Cost of Discount Culture”

  It’s impossible to grapple with the global economy without addressing the tricky subject of China, and Shell does so with the right amount of clear-eyed empathy. She notes that China as a nation has grown wealthier while its poor have become poorer. According to figures released by the World Bank, between 2001 and 2003 the income of the poorest 10 percent of China’s 1.3 billion people had fallen by 2.4 percent, to less than $83 per year. In that same period, the country’s economy grew by 10 percent, and its richest people became 16 percent richer. Many of China’s poor work in factories, earning ever-shrinking pay under inhospitable or dangerous conditions, as the American conglomerates who do business there press the Chinese government to revise or reverse regulations that might make these laborers’ work lives more tolerable. The government, understandably eager for China to take its place at the global-commerce table, is all too eager to comply. A Shanghai journalist makes a piercing comment to Shell: “We do not yet have the luxury to concern ourselves too much with things like human rights.”

• [sylkworm]

  Who invented the Human Wave attack?

  “Although most massed attacks by infantry before the age of modern firepower could be (and sometimes are) described as human waves, the criticism implied by the term and the implied acceptance of high casualties from the defenders’ superior firepower mean the term is unhelpful to describe earlier conflicts. Early examples of mass infantry charges against superior defensive firepower include Pickett’s charge at the battle of Gettysburg and the Zulu attacks on British troops in the Zulu War.”

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_wave_attack

  Dude, I grew up with an outhouse.

  Now imagine the same childhood, without running water, electricity, shoes, enough food, nor medicine so that something like simple dysintry can end up killing you. Imagine having 8 kids, watching 3 of them die from disease or starvation, and having to send some of them away because you couldn’t afford feed them (this happened to my father). If you can still say you’d rather live in 1930′s Tibet, then my hat’s off to you: you are one hardcore dude.

• [mdh]

  I’m starting to wonder, Takuan, if you are actually capable of having a rational open discussion without assassinating the character of any people who happen disagree with you.

  Do you say that in an honest attempt to rise above the perceived insult?

• [sylkworm]

  @Takuan: Much better than you. It’s pretty obvious that I’m posting credible actual news sources, rather than here-say regurgitation from mainstream channels that don’t even have anyone on the ground in Xinjiang. I’m also not the one that keeps on trying to shoehorn this into a China-bashing free-Tibet rally. I just want the suffering and violence to stop.

  I’m off to work out, but please post more Raggae music videos. I’m sure they are very relevant.

  • [Antinous / Moderator]

    I just want the suffering and violence to stop.

    That seems like a euphemism for maintaining the social order at the cost of freedom.

• [Takuan]

  http://english.ntdtv.com/ntdtv_en/ns_europe/2009-07-27/163493291040.html

• [Small Om]

  This doesn’t necessarily surprise me, just recently I’ve been hosting a Chinese teacher(not teaching Chinese but from china as in Han) and while she was a very nice person you had to avoid any conversation even tangentially involving Tibet or Taiwan or else get an earful of propaganda.

  There’s no denying that living conditions in Tibet and Xinjiang improved(hell Tibet was basically a slave state under the Lamas), but actual communism is predicated on the idea of gentle homogenization over time which is why the Chinese government encourages Han migrations to lands with differing cultures to gentrify the area like Harlem and Mission Hill were.

  When certain cultures don’t immediately take to the dominant way of the thinking the Chinese government certainly goes into shock.

  @Sylkworm: the lowered test scores and scholarships would work in favor of the Uighur if they weren’t forced to choose between their cultural values or learning Han fluently. It is cultural genocide if the choice you’re given is an equal education(which doesn’t guarantee against discrimination of your group when trying to get a job) or your cultural identity. Closing Mosques on a friday doesn’t exactly seem like a culturally understanding government and I’m sure if Egypt closed Synogogues on high holidays or France closed Cathedrals you’d be singing a different tune.
  -SH.

  • [Antinous / Moderator]

    Tibet was basically a slave state under the Lamas

    SSSTTTOOOOOPPPPP repeating this inane meme, please. China officially abolished slavery in 1910 and still had 4 million children treated as slaves in 1930. And still has slavery in the provinces. The collectivization of Chinese society, forced work camps, mass murders and atrocities of the Cultural Revolution were ethically comparable or worse, and far worse in terms of violent loss of life, than Tibet’s caste-based society. And China’s communist version of serfdom lasted long after serfdom was abolished in Tibet.

    This business about how the progressive Chinese rescued those backward Tibetans from slavery is the vilest sort of propaganda.

• [Takuan]

  I am most certainly not accusing you of being a mindless voice of the communist party in Beijing. I am saying you are doing it knowingly and deliberately.

• [Takuan]

  so your youtube selection shows random corpses. Are they Han or Uighur? Who killed them? We already know there is violence and murder happening. We also already know from the Tibet example that the Beijing government manufactures whatever “news” fits their agenda.

• [Takuan]

  sure, sylk, whatever you say. Do try to remember the audience here is a little more sophisticated than what you are used to and is acutely aware that what they see on a video screen is often just an edited story.

  I know you want the violence to stop. And after the last Tibetan and Uighur are gone, you will have your way, won’t you?

• [sylkworm]

  Antinous, I think you missed my point with #97. I’m not saying the Communists were nice guys. They did commit attrocities. No one’s denying that, but to say there was a racist or genocidal element is flat out wrong. The Reds were fanatically anti-elite, and like the post said, race was a non-issue. Mao didn’t single out Tibet or Xinjiang, they did the exact same thing to the Han. If Tibet was full of ethnic Hans, the Reds would have still try to kill off the Lama class because Mao’s doctrine considered them to be oppressors of the Tibetan peasantry.

• [Takuan]

  this is Beijing’s plan and method. Deny, erase, intimidate, bury, deny, evade, shout, accuse, deny and deny. This is how they eradicated the thousands of deaths of Tienanmen Square from the minds of a billion. They know it works and works the more they get away with it. They intend to liquidate Tibet and have almost succeeded. The Uighurs are next and so are any other people in the Chinese empire that dare to be unique. The Big Lie wrote even bigger.

  There is an inevitable collision coming with the rest of the world. I expect Africa to be next.

• [Takuan]

  ps: ack ack ack!!

• [sylkworm]

  @Antinous, I think you have a horribly biased version of China, as if it’s just Pyongyang only bigger and with more people. Sure, it’s no western democracy but that will come with time in future generations. I think taking perhaps the darkest and most chaotic moments in its history to judge and extrapolate a nation’s entire value is not very useful nor enlightening. Perhaps, you really would rather live the life of an illiterate Tibetan peasant rather than live with electricity, food, roads, and running water. That’s your choice, so I’ll take your words at face value. Millions of other people, most probably including those Tibetan peasants would gladly take the later choice, if only as an means to a end of eventual autonomous rule.

  • [Antinous / Moderator]

    I think you have a horribly biased version of China

    You keep talking about the horrors of pre-occupation life while ignoring China’s own atrocities and I have the biased view?

• [sylkworm]

  Hmmmm… Maybe you won’t answer those questions because you’re afraid what those answers show. Perhaps you’re not such a smart fellow after all, and perhaps it’s far easier to be a devil’s advocate and throw rocks at others and point out their imperfections, than to actually say something meaningful. Perhaps you’re worried that if you start actually laying out your political worldview, almost everyone will see how crazy you sound. I wonder how many Tibetans or Uighur peasants would prefer your ideal system of anarchy to being an autonomous part of China. Maybe you just want to see the downfall of all civilization. Or maybe not. Your call.

• [Takuan]

  http://www.smh.com.au/world/uighur-leader-will-take-her-case-to-canberra-20090717-do9e.html

• [Takuan]

  “as an means to a end of eventual autonomous rule.”

  so if they become good slaves they may be given back the freedom that was taken from them in the first place?

  I repeat: if Tibetans and Uighurs so love being under the Han boot, let them vote to show their true love for it.

• [sylkworm]

  Do you say that in an honest attempt to rise above the perceived insult?

  I don’t consider Takuan’s words insulting as much as they are meaningless. I might be more insulted if he hit anywhere close to home, but as it is, he’s arguing with an illusion of who he thinks I am.

  As for me being a voice of the communists, it seems that every time any Chinese persons makes a statement that doesn’t denounce the Communist Party as 100%, that maybe the Party and Mao did some good somewhere, or suggests that Tibet/China isn’t so black-and-white, we’re automatically painted as brainwashed products of the communist apparatus. Usually one or two westerners that have actually spent time in China will chime in and agree with me, but they are usually either ignored or shouted down as well. Frankly, I think it’s a bit silly to suggest that 3 billion plus people can be so brainwashed and repressed into not having a clue what’s going on in their country.

  Inevitably, Tiananmen gets trotted out as some sort of Auschwitz for democratic reform (thank you, Takuan), as if the inability of western reporters to convince Chinese citizens to talk about the incident on camera is an indication that the entire nation suffered from mass-amnesia and brainwashing. It may surprise you that most of my immediate relatives in China know about it, and furthermore Tiananmen isn’t even the first, only, or last call for democracy in China. Democratic Reformers simply realized that it was far more productive to work within the system. In fact, Tiananmen was ultimately a backfire for the hardliners because many of the Beijinger and students that were killed were relatives or children of prominent Party officials.

• [Takuan]

  http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/09/04/opinion/main5288535.shtml

• [sylkworm]

  @BMCRAEC

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_China#Ethnic_Groups

  This is standard Chinese Communist M.O.. I can pretty tell you how it’s going to play out.

  They’ll arrest a couple of scapegoats, mostly Uighur but maybe a few token Hans. They’ll probably try to tie the Uighur scapegoats to pro-western separatist groups.

  Most of the other rioters they’ll detain, rough up a bit, and then let go, and make a big deal about giving the arrested uighurs a special porkless meals and how equitable they are treating them. Do more Xinhua shows about how most Uighurs and Hans actually really get along great.

  Hopefully in the long term, it will be a wake-up call ethnical Hans that there are racial inequities that need to be addressed by Chinese as a society.

• [Takuan]

  I don’t think you are a communist, I just think you serve them. I also don’t know or care if you happen to be ethnic Chinese. All I care about is that you are a wilful liar.

• [sylkworm]

  so if they become good slaves they may be given back the freedom that was taken from them in the first place?

  They were already slaves for the Lamas in the first place. As for means to an end, starving, illiterate, and diseased peasants don’t vote as well as well-fed, educated, and cultured citizens. Why does that not make sense?

  You keep talking about the horrors of pre-occupation life while ignoring China’s own atrocities and I have the biased view?

  I attempted to give a non-simplistic and nuanced representation of the occupation of Tibet, and attempted to do the same for China (i.e. both good and bad), while you only look for the worst. Maybe that kind of one-sided argument works for lawyers and internet debaters, but I find it doesn’t need to better understanding. Events like the Great Famine were very tragic, but overall the average Chinese person’s living standards improved, and their personal freedoms increased. Compared to the pre-communist prospect of being vassal to Colonial and Imperial powers (under which ‘attrocities’ and ‘wholesale slaughter of millions’ were common place), the post-Communist China has come a long way.

• [sylkworm]

  @Takuan, you also don’t seem to know or care about the facts, or anything that doesn’t directly support your political agenda.

• [Takuan]

  “non-simplistic and nuanced representation”? straight out of the Beijing playbook for the revision of Tibetan history? Just who do you think is being fooled here? Oddly enough, I have never met a Tibetan who supports your version of events. Not one.

  Answer the question: why can’t Tibetans vote?

• [Takuan]

  “facts”? I take Tibetan “facts” over Chinese “facts” when it comes to Tibet. Or are Tibetan facts automatically not facts?

  Why aren’t Tibetans allowed to vote?

• [Hawley]

  i don’t know what the big deal is over there, they all look the same anyway ya’know?

• [sylkworm]

  Let me guess Takuan. The only Tibetans you’ve met have been at Free Tibet rallies? I do admit that you are almost cute in how single-minded you are.

  I have to leave for a dinner date, now, but I will close by attempting get this discussion back on track about Xinjiang. I think part of the ethnic tension there occurred because of the recent downturn in the global economy, which hit manufacturing areas like Guandong the hardest. Uighur workers are generally paid less for the same job, and are so perceived by Hans are stealing jobs from them. I think equitable pay, worker’s rights, and better enforced laws for workplace discrimination will go a long way in easing tensions.

• [Takuan]

  heh! Uighurs, in their own land, are perceived by Han interlopers as “stealing their jobs” by being paid less. You must get a double bonus for that one.

• [Takuan]

  http://www.amnestyusa.org/actioncenter/actions/uaa15809.pdf

• [Takuan]

  http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/china-tightens-web-controls/article1225825/

• [Ugly Canuck]

  The Uighurs & the Chinese have been dancing this dance for a very very long time: for over a millenium, IIRC.
  Ironically, in light of the Western bias in favor of the Uighurs (and I too am always in sympathy , at least while yet ignorant of actual facts, with the side of the seeming underdog), the clearest war crime (ie action clearly contrary to international law and easily so provable) committed by the Bush Admin. was the transport of those Uighurs Muslims, without their consent, from Afghanistan to Gitmo (those Uighurs had nothing at all against the USA, after all, but their associates did [- and whatever happened to the freedom of association, anyway? Just words, it seems...]) – but those Uighurs seem to have forgiven it, from their new homes in Bermuda, so I won’t press the point.
  Like the Islamic “insurgents” of the Southern Philippines, who started their fight against Spanish Conquistadors, several centuries ago, and who fight on to this day (and apparently the US has decided to take sides in that centuries-old conflict, too: on religious principle? But I digress…), this “low-level” conflict shall apparently go on for some time.
  But these struggles really are none of my business: nor my Governments, and I humbly recommend that neutrality, in conflicts where one’s own interests are not engaged, is yet the most reasonable course.
  I’m personally tired of people (or governments) seemingly trying to establish their own virtue, by crowing and ranting about another’s lack or deficiency thereof.
  And I am impressed even less favorably by those “Imperialists”, of whatever nation, who wish to (and they do act as they wish!) foment conflict, vexation and dissension amongst and between others, in order to gain their own political advantages. Or even worse, solely for PR points with an ignorant public, never actually having any concern at all for those whom they profess to support: sometimes, their only “concern” is to bring ill to all sides involved, and to extend the conflict, no matter what they may say in public as to whom or what they support. As the maritime Byzantine colonies established on the Iberian peninsula once did.
  The old peasant sayings as to keeping your eye on your own affairs rather than on tales of the distant other ( though with our tech, no-one seems so “distant” anymore, eh?) still have wisdom in them.

• [Takuan]

  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/bearing-witness-20-you-ca_b_231096.html

• [Takuan]

  http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?story_id=13988479&source=hptextfeature

• [Takuan]

  warlord:
  http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j794twyjYyjeOIdsKWwzCUhsgvUAD9AHTI680

• [Takuan]

  until the Tibetans and Uighurs are allowed to democratically vote to decide who controls their lives, they are an oppressed and occupied people. Those like Mr. Worm and his ilk are apologists for enslavement.

• [Takuan]

  oh and Tienanmen Square “never happened”. Ask any “free” Chinese.

• [Takuan]

  the genocide progresses
  http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/china-plans-massive-change-in-uyghur-cultural-capital/article1214548/

• [Takuan]

  http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/china/uighurs/xinjiang/guangdong-factory

• [Takuan]

  I wonder how Uighurs would vote, given the chance?

• [Takuan]

  http://www.nationalpost.com/news/world/story.html?id=1778213

• [mdh]

  but I will close by attempting get this discussion back on track about Xinjiang.

  Nick of time, friend.

• [Takuan]

  regardless of how you wish to torture history to suit your agenda, today in Tibet and Xinjiang the people whose land it is are still unable to dictate their own destiny by democratic vote because of Chinese guns and boots. You still haven’t answered: why can’t they vote? Why are they worthless to the force that occupies them? They clearly want the Chinese to leave them in peace, they clearly own all the oil and minerals and other treasure that is being taken from them. They have shown they are willing to fight and die for their country and culture just as China has shown it is willing to obliterate them all.

  Do you really think they want to have themselves displaced by train loads of foreigners that take all the benefits of any economic development while diluting what little claim they have left to their birthright? Were the Chinese invited?

  Mao’s only significant quote on Tibet was: “Tibet will supply China with the resources it needs and China will supply Tibet with people”. No ideology beyond kill and take. Just as it is now.

• [Takuan]

  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8239591.stm

• [peterbruells]

  @takuan Err… by that reasoning Texans and Bavarians are an oppressed and occupied people, since they cannot democratically opt out of their respective union.

• [sylkworm]

  Takuan, why won’t you answer two simple questions? I just want to know your thoughts.

• [Takuan]

  http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSLJ612396

• [Takuan]

  http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/30/china-denies-leader-claim-uighur

• [Takuan]

  think of it as a pageant, a holocaust pageant
  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8240651.stm

• [Takuan]

  I rather doubt that. How about you answering the question I’ve put from the beginning: Why won’t they let them vote?

• [Takuan]

  http://www.nationalpost.com/news/world/story.html?id=1529798

• [Takuan]

  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/5818972/Chinas-credit-boom-approaches-end.html

• [Teresa Nielsen Hayden]

  Sylkworm, it’s your look-out, but I’ll warn you now that condescending to Takuan isn’t going to work. He’s substantially immune to it, and you aren’t very good at it.

• [sylkworm]

  @Takuan: Regarding your Al Jazeera article, I find it rather strange that Turkey, who has officially spoken against China, doesn’t even get a mention. Don’t they qualify as a Muslim country? It’s weird, and it seems like there some background story going on there.

  With regards to the video. Most of the bodies in the first video are too far away or grainy to make out, but several are recognizably Han. Several of the rioters are also recognizably Uighur by their hats. I’m not sure how you can cry censorship, since the South Koreans would definitely not have a vested interest in spreading Chinese propaganda.

  The bodies in the second video are uighur, probably the 2 workers that were killed which sparked the Xinjiang demonstrations.

  BTW, I almost laughed when you tried to twist my desire to stop the violence into some sort of Chinese “Final Solution to the Uighur Problem”. Really, do you think if the Chinese government wanted to commit genocide they wouldn’t have done it by now?

  • [Antinous / Moderator]

    I find it rather strange that Turkey, who has officially spoken against China, doesn’t even get a mention. Don’t they qualify as a Muslim country?

    Turkey is a secular country with a Muslim majority. So, no, unless you consider the US a Christian country.

• [Takuan]

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_wave_attack

• [Takuan]

  http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-07-10-voa47.cfm

• [Takuan]

  http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia-pacific/2009/09/2009954184928330.html

• [Takuan]

  who IS next?
  http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Nervous-China-may-attack-India-by-2012-Expert/articleshow/4771069.cms

• [sylkworm]

  Takuan, I’m doing my best to find out. I twittered @hujintao twice but he hasn’t gotten back to me yet.

  In the mean time, I’m sure you can tell me your own opinion quite easily. If any nation can not win the fight for independence, does that mean they do not deserve it? Exactly what point are you trying to make with your link to the Human Wave Attack?

• [sylkworm]

  That seems like a euphemism for maintaining the social order at the cost of freedom.

  Actually, I don’t necessarily disagree with that (assuming you’re not taking it to the ad absurdium case). At some point, you do need some social order to prevent total anarchy. Otherwise, the only freedom you have is how much you can forcibly prevent others from taking.

  I fully expect most of this will probably fall on deaf ears but in general Asian cultural values favor stability and harmony over personal freedom and individual expression. In most Asian societies (Japan, Singapore, South Korean), people are willing to trade a little personal freedom (like owning firearms, chewing gum, censorship) for greater safety, social stability, and collective prosperity. Note, I’m not saying this is better or worse, I’m just saying that this is how the Asian temperament (in general) is.

• [Takuan]

  http://eurasia.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2009/07/13/trouble_in_xinjiang_isnt_going_away

• [Takuan]

  nope, no more diversions, just answer. You must know since you clearly approve of what is being done to them. Out with it.

• [Anonymous]

  Saying this is the results of simple ethnic tension like the Chicago race riots rather than government oppression doesn’t make much sense. Those riots were the result of government oppression over a long period of time. Explosive situations like that are less likely to develop when everyone is being fair.

  The terrible conditions of Tibet back in the day don’t justify much. Early native Americans had lives I would have hated, with poor technology, little of what I would call social justice, and often constant warfare. European conquerors did them all sorts of “favors”, and it rarely makes me think well of them. At any rate, none of this would apply to the Uighurs, who are now faring the same way.

  On the other hand, if voting rights are the main standard, aren’t the Han also an oppressed people?

• [Takuan]

  “Really, do you think if the Chinese government wanted to commit genocide they wouldn’t have done it by now?”

  not been paying attention I see.

• [sylkworm]

  @SmallOm, agreed to a certain extent. At some point a given demographic group has to be part of the national identity to be considered part a nation. This doesn’t mean that they necessarily have to give up their cultural heritage, but they do have to integrate into the greater national society. It’s was a similar process for American immigrants to assimilate successfully into American culture. Education and learning Mandarin is necessary for Uighurs to be successful since that’s the language that all business & legal contracts would be conducted. As for the mosques, if you read the tail end of the Telegraph article I posted, you’ll see that the Chinese Police actually relent in the face of Uighur protests and allow 2 large mosques to hold prayers (although without sermon). I’ll grant that it’s not fair, but I took the reason for this action to be a temporary measure to de-escalate the racial violence.

  @Takuan, your ad hominem attacks demonstrate how blinded you are by your political agenda and sino-phobia. You do a dis-service to your namesake by holding up political boundaries and ethnic intolerance, over compassion for the common people. Even his Holiness the Dalai Lama has said that Tibet should not be an independent nation, since he recognizes how much China and Tibet need each other.

• [sylkworm]

  Now you are just being unreasonable. I already told you I’m doing my best to find out. How can I tell you the answer when Prime Minister Hu Jintao hasn’t told me what it is?

  I really don’t know why you won’t clarify yourself. You seem to be an intelligent fellow. Obviously, you have thought all of this through. I just want to understand what your politics are.

• [Takuan]

  http://dump.vicp.cc/cach/news.asp?n=1

• [Takuan]

  hey, If Asians like being slaves as you suggest, why couldn’t the Chinese take turns with the Tibetans and Uighurs? Let them be on top for a while.

  Or they could let them vote.

• [Takuan]

  are you sure you’ve bet on the right horse? When the the inevitable disruption comes, allegiance with former power might be a liability.

• [Takuan]

  http://gawker.com/5353356/chinese-government-closes-in-on-anonymous-commenters

• [jjasper]

  Takuan –

  I wonder how Uighurs would vote, given the chance?
  

  How about “stop beating us to death”?

• [sylkworm]

  I’ll admit you at least have some traction with Tibet, but I’m curious as to your justification for an independent East Turkistan. Xinjiang’s been a part of China since before the first European staked his flag into the Americas. Is it you contention that any people can declare themselves independent from a sovereign nation at will regardless of historical ties or how many other ethnicities (e.g. Hui & Kazaks) live in the same area? BTW, I’m just trying to understand your political worldview. So far you are demonstrating all the qualities of an Anarchist.

  Also, what point as you trying to make with the link to Human Wave Attack?

• [Takuan]

  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/03/10000-protest-needle-stab_n_277043.html

• [Takuan]

  http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/11/world/asia/11xinjiang.html?_r=3&hp

• [Uyghur News]

  here is many articles related to Uighur people.

  Thanks!

  Uighur News

  East Turkistan and Tibet Will Be Free!

• [Takuan]

  http://www.theonion.com/content/news/nothing_at_all_happens_to_28

• [Takuan]

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnJgIq48C9k&feature=related

• [toogreen]

  @Antinous & Takuan

  Come on now, my BK/Starbucks mention was just a silly way to illustrate my point, which is, living in China these days is pretty much the same as living in any other western country… politics aside.

  Of course by reading your comments it is quite obvious that you both have never set foot in China, and picture it as some sort of big version of North Korea, LOL. Geez guys, the stuff and pictures of prisons you sometimes refer to is like over 20 years old already. China is far from perfect, obviously, but it does changes too, you know?

  Btw, I’m not in any way backing up Chinese government or whatever, far from that! But your original statement (antinous) was just plain silly. Living in China today can be quite nice actually, believe it or not. As I said previously, many of the people who have been through the Cultural Revolution, been out in the farms for over 10 years working almost like slaves, well many are now living very comfortable, wealthy lives. Do you really believe they feel as if they lack any freedom? You think that before they go to bed at night they stop and think “Ah, it really sucks to be such a slave as I am, but at least I got my big TV and I can eat Burger King”?? Geez man its not like you get out in the streets and its martial law…

  And quite frankly, whenever I go back home to Canada or fly through the United States and have to endure all the airport security craziness and excess of rules and silly laws, I almost wonder which country really offers me the more so-called “freedom”…

• [Takuan]

  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7970471.stm

• [Takuan]

  http://www.canada.com/news/Exiled+Uighur+leader+violent+stance+genuine+Dalai+Lama/1839874/story.html

• [Takuan]

  thank you for a perfect demonstration of my moral argument.

• [Takuan]

  http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iWj7kMhvfE2MZBoQ5ewS8EPyJFaA

• [Takuan]

  oh dear, getting desperate now are they…
  http://www.thestar.com/world/columnist/article/665538

• [Tdawwg]

  If you’re a foreign national living in China, it should be obvious to you that you enjoy freedoms that native Chinese don’t, TooGreen. So the answer to your question would be “Canada.”

  Remember that for many of the politically-attuned, any notion of “politics aside” immediately disqualifies an argument: there’s nothing ultimately outside of politics, so what are you talking about?

  Most Western countries that I’m familiar with or have visited also aren’t toxic superfund sites, unlike much of China. Somehow breathing air that at doesn’t smell like burning feces and doesn’t kill you within a few years got left off your list of “freedoms.” Sure, the US has the Appalachian nightmare and a lot of other bad things, but I’d hate to trade our ecological problems for China’s full on ecocatastrophe….

• [Takuan]

  progress after all
  http://www.news.com.au/technology/story/0,28348,25782413-5014239,00.html

• [sylkworm]

  hey, If Asians like being slaves as you suggest, why couldn’t the Chinese take turns with the Tibetans and Uighurs? Let them be on top for a while.

  Love how you automatically equate Asian culture with slavery. Hey if you don’t want to carry 6 automatic assault rifles while driving down the sidewalk playing gangsta rap, you obviously must want to be a slave. Wonderful logic.

  Turkey is a secular country with a Muslim majority. So, no, unless you consider the US a Christian country.

  From that article: “A leading Uighur rights activist has criticised Muslim-majority countries for not speaking out against decades of alleged repression and persecution from the Chinese government.”

  Very strange that she doesn’t mention Turkey at all, since Uighurs are ethnically Turkish. I did read somewhere that she had been denied a Turkish visa twice before. Possibly the Turkish government may not want to be too close to her.

  Also: I just found this video from Al-Jazeera (on the ground coverage, what a concept!), which shows what appears to be a city trying to pull itself back together. Notable is a Uighur restaurant owner show says that he’s glad the Police came in when they did.

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_9A7gb-Ey8&feature=player_embedded

• [Takuan]

  you’re the one saying that Asians don’t value freedom or human rights. I think they do. All of them. Give it up sylk, you’re just an apologist for the unacceptable. Sure, Beijing might win and exterminate the last Tibetan and Uighur. Every possibility of that. Also every chance that they will extinguish their cultures and burn all their history too. Lots of historical precedent for successful genocide. That doesn’t make it right.
  What will you be saying when Taiwan is invaded and they start the process of liquidating the Taiwanese?
  They’re Han you know. But that won’t save them.

• [Takuan]

  genocide smokescreen
  http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/692200

• [sylkworm]

  Trading in freedom for Burger King – priceless. My original statement stands. In fact, it stands a little taller.

  This is nothing personal, because I do respect your opinion, but it’s just hard believe someone living in a developed nation talk about living without modern amenities like it was nothing. I grew up living without centralized heating, hot water, electricity, and an indoor toilet. Not the same as 1930′s Tibet, of course, but I’ve seen first hand what live in Rural China was like back in the 1980′s before the economic development: no shoes, dirt floors, shit-littered (literally) streets, general malnutrition, no electricity, kids running around outside completely naked, covered in snot & dirt, and not going to school, people suffering from easily treated illnesses (like hookworms, hepatitis, infections, mosquito-borne diseases), etc. Some of my extended family still don’t have central heating, but since then the Chinese economic boom (with its Burger Kings and Starbucks) has uplifted millions of people from poverty. It’s just hard not to get offended when someone comes along and says “no, these modern conveniences are not worth the freedom to cast a vote”. I mean, sure more personal freedom is a great thing, but so is having enough to eat and not dying from malaria.

  I think most Chinese people do value personal freedom and take a pragmatic view on democratization, but not at the cost of social anarchy. I do believe that China will eventually be democratic, that as economic reforms trickle down and increased awareness comes with education and affluency, social reform will also happen gradually and that eventually the Chinese government will become more open and democratic like Taiwan or Japan.

  • [Antinous / Moderator]

    it’s just hard believe someone living in a developed nation talk about living without modern amenities like it was nothing.

    Dude, I grew up with an outhouse.

• [Takuan]

  anarchism is ideal, but the species lacks the maturity for it at this time. Perhaps if the economics of plenty is ever allowed to penetrate.

  Any nation that can win the fight to be independent, is. I don’t know what the Uighurs want, I am not one. I do understand clearly what they do not want. The root of the problem lies in Beijing’s paranoia and inability to trust her own people. This translates into an ability to treat the non-Han as less than human.

  It is not just the obvious ethnic fracture lines just below the surface in a China that is staring economic doom in the face. Old regional prejudices and rivalries, ancient linguistic splits and the tribal nature of humans means that China could splinter into a dozen separate states if the global economy ceases to feed the breakneck growth of recent years. Something I think is inevitable.

  Rather than come up with a new, equitable model that serves all, the old guard is fighting a delaying action and refusing to look at reality. The victimization of the Tibetans and Uighurs and other minorities is a minor by-product to them, an annoyance they think will pass when the last troublesome minority is dead or assimilated. They ride the tiger and think they have a chance since 300 million have been uplifted to a prosperous lifestyle. A billion still wait. There simply are not enough resources in the world.

  They need a new model.

  as to the Human Wave wiki, do note that the whole article makes specific reference to my point, something you attempted to avoid with cherry picking a sentence or two.

• [Takuan]

  http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2009/07/11/2003448378