Barney Frank pwns crazy lady at "town hall" meeting, effectively invoking Godwin's law.

Nelson.C

Sorry, I didn’t mean to cause offence. I put the asterisks in so I could quote from Blazing Saddles while minimising offence.

Antinous / Moderator

These things take on a life of their own. No one person does anything terrible, but you look at the thread and it looks pretty ugly.

Anonymous

Oh my god!! This was just awesome!!!!! I honestly don’t bother watching these town hall meetings because the people there just have no idea of what their best interest is .. or they’ve been brainwashed or just totally ignorant! I can’t find an explanation!!!

I just wished that these people would watch the Bill Moyers Journal on PBS;their coverage of the health care issue (and if you haven’t please do, they have the videos available on pbs.org).

wil9000

Hear hear! It’s time the Dems grew a pair and started standing up to the crazies. I seem to remember a long time back when somebody stood up to a crazie and said:

“You have done enough. Have you no sense of decency?”

This was hero Joseph Welch, to Wisconsin Republican Senator Joseph R. McCarthy in 1954.

The concern of the crazies is valid, and they are entitled to their own opinions, but not to their own facts, no matter how much Rush and Karl and Sean and O’Reilly tell them otherwise. They are not “patriots” they are puppets. And why are they being maipulated like this? The average Health Company CEO’s pay is over 11 million dollars a year, so this gives each one of them 11 million reasons to disrupt the democratic process to fit their own agenda, where the bottom line is the only line.

das memsen

sorry- i’ve never considered “d***-s***” to be any more homophobic than ” a**k****** ” or “n**l******” or even the tamer “brown-nosing”. there’s nothing wrong with sucking on a penis- what’s wrong is sucking on a corporate penis when your job is to serve the millions of people that voted for you. Given that the current state of things keeps sinking lower and lower, a little righteous rage doesn’t seem out of place, in my humble opinion.

No offense intended to anyone (other than the people hanging this country out to dry.)

BookGuy

@notary sojac

If the woman in the video had actually asked the questions you pose, then it would have been a real conversation. Instead, she spouted what has, very sadly, become the now-routine Nazi nonsense, complete with visual aids. I know who my vote for “stupid” goes to.

howaboutthisdangit

Reductio ad Hitlerum. The wack-jobs are getting more and more desparate for any straw to grasp at.

2k

No one ever blows them away because they are celebrities. Far too entertaining.

Like Wilson’s hippies, calling-in to hear the right wing fascist rant.

Fox is car crash TV. I betcha a LOT of their viewers laugh in the wrong places.

Talia

#18) how about just the people who scream mindlessly at town hall meetings without bothering to ask questions, and/or compare the plan to nazi-ism?

It’s fine to have doubts. Thats why there are meetings. to hopefully assuage them.

Even if you disagree, at least act like a rational human being and prove your point through reasonable arguement, instead of wharrgarrbling. (I’m not saying YOU you, I mean people in general)

mlw99

IMHO, methinks that the only reason this exchange is known to us all is because of a 24/7 news cycle, youtube, BoingBoing, and the speed of the internet. These exchanges have happened since time immemorial. With our present infobit dissemination paradigm, our Constitution, and the willingness of public officials to tread into the trenches, these types of encounters will continue to bombard our senses. Our only defense will be the filters, perceptions, life experiences and fact-checking that we ourselves bring to the table.

As to how we are perceived by the rest of the world, well, we ARE an amalgam of the rest of the world–and courteous and thoughtful discourse doesn’t necessarily rise to the top like this exchange can.

Jay Acker

I always thought George W. Bush was way more analogous to Richard Nixon than Adolf Hitler.

The only man in modern history who can even be mentioned in the same breadth as Hitler is Stalin, and I’m afraid even he falls short.

Lets make this simple, no comparison to Hitler is possible. He defines the word incomparable better than Michael Jordan.

dculberson

Notary S, so because those claims are not possible, it’s a Nazi plan? I’m confused as to what your comment has to do with the exchange discussed in this post.

ephcee

I just don’t get what’s going on. I’ve met Americans, I’ve lived in America… but is this real? Do people really think there are going to be death panels? And why are they bringing guns to meetings?

The way these people live seems so stressful, always against something all the time…

orangebag

It seems a lot of people here have assumed the “Nazi Plan” woman is a right wing fear monger. If what I have read is true, this is not the case:

http://www.larouchepac.com/node/11111

and watch the whole video at the link given waay above.

Can a USian comment on how LaRouche is viewed?
Do people think he is the extreme wing of the Democractic Party? Cos it seems he is straight from the Department of You’re Not Helping (Jon Stewart dailyshowism)

Keith

Now, who should we characterize as “dumb”?

Someone who believes all three can be done simultaneously?

Or someone who does not?

It’s hard to say exactly what this crazy lady believes, but I’m pretty sure “Nazi Hitler socialist!” is not shorthand for a reasoned critique of Obama’s plan.

If someone were to stand up at one of these town hall meetings and ask the question you did, Sojac, I’m sure Frank, or anyone else, would gladly explain to them how this works. But that isn’t happening. All we’re left with is one side offering a plan and the other shouting gibberish that amounts to a toddler saying “No!” over and over again. That’s not a debate, that’s a temper tantrum.

bandola

Why do Americans always seem (at least to me, a Swede) to confuse public healthcare with full-blown socialism, and socialism with communism? I’m sure many Americans are smarter than that, but come on? Is the level of common knowledge really so low that ordinary people actually believe “public healthcare means everyones gonna die omg”? Where are the outcries about public water supplies, public roads, fire safety, vehicle and traffic controls?

I really hope you get some kind of good public healthcare alternative over there. Poor people should not have to be ruined by insurance companies in a developed country.

Daedalus

How did this happen, you ask?

Dudes, pants-messing fear trumps cautious, tempered hope every time.

“You know, if you work hard, and are lucky, good things might come of it.”
“HOLY CRAP ALIEN NAZI TEENAGER MUSLIMS ARE GOING TO EAT OUR BABIES AND OBAMA WANTS TO GIVE THEM ALL PASSPORTS AND FREE HEALTH CARE!”

It’s fear politics. Simpering goofballs like Glenn Beck, ego-maniacal crackpots like Bill O’Rielly and old white fleshblobs like Lou Dobbs, all traffic in it on a regular basis. It does sell ads, that’s for sure. Ads for insurance companies, amongst other things.

2HourHiatus

Now that is what I’m talking about!

I’m always glad to see a politician stand up for basic common sense.

Takuan

mouth breathing cretins
http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/08/19/gop-blame-obama-recession/

Brainspore

The gay Jewish guy and the biracial liberal guy have clearly been conspiring to craft a Nazi government for years now. Know who else wanted everybody to drive reliable, fuel efficient automobiles? HITLER, that’s who.

LittleLethe

#126

Please do not put me in the same breath as this woman. Just because I’m homeschooled by a Christian program does not make me a nutcase. I only believe the roughly 30 percent in those programs (the science portion), and that reluctantly. I tend to have to look things up via Google because I can’t trust what they’re saying. I could go on forever about the crap these things have put me through. But please, don’t compare me to her.

W. James Au

I do think Rep. Frank did a great disservice to dining room tables.

GeekDadCanada

Can we get this guy to talk to Jenny McCarthy, homeopaths and all other nutballs out there?

Itsumishi

The President has made the following assurances:

(1) 40+ million Americans who have no health insurance will now be fully covered.

(2) Those who are currently covered by Medicare or commercial insurance will have no diminution of the care they currently receive.

(3) All this will be done with no net increase in health care costs or addition to the federal deficit.

Now, who should we characterize as “dumb”?

Someone who believes all three can be done simultaneously?

Or someone who does not?

Please investigate the following countries health care systems for examples of where:
1) Everyone gets covered by some kind of health insurance system regardless of income.
2) Private care matches that of the US System (this is one point that is arguable depending on WHAT you are looking at, but generally the US honestly isn’t that good!).
3) Health care costs are much lower per person nationwide.

Australia, Canada, France, Italy, Germany, The United Kingdom, etc, etc.

It’s not a matter of can it be done, it’s been proven in many countries that it can be done quite easily.

The problem the US has is will it be done or will corporate lobbying brainwash too much of the population into thinking it’s somehow a bad idea?

Takuan

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/08/lawyer-fbi-paid-right-wing-blogger-charged-with-threats/

GeekDadCanada

The President has made the following assurances:

(1) 40+ million Americans who have no health insurance will now be fully covered.

(2) Those who are currently covered by Medicare or commercial insurance will have no diminution of the care they currently receive.

(3) All this will be done with no net increase in health care costs or addition to the federal deficit.

Now, who should we characterize as “dumb”?

Someone who believes all three can be done simultaneously?

Or someone who does not?

Well it’s done here in Canada, why not the US?

Dave Faris

For what it’s worth, Michelle Malkin, a conservative blogger and frequent Fox News pundit, claims that CNN failed to mention that the woman that Barney Frank schools is actually a Lyndon Larouche democrat on her twitter feed.

I don’t really see that as relevant. I don’t think anyone is laying the blame for the misinformation and bullshit solely on the feet of the GOP and the conservatives, though they’ve clearly done their fair share of muddying the waters.

davidasposted

I say this as an American who monitors news broadcasts from various countries around the world and currently lives overseas:

Why does this level of stupid often come from the U.S.? What is it about this country that allows for such an intense concentration of total nonsense? Where one thing apparently really means the exact opposite? Where people work feverishly against their own interest?

Anonymous

Daedalus, you made my day!!! It’s the scare tactic that they have been using and continue to use.. and the sad part is that it’s working. Ignorance make these type of propaganda work!!!! saddddddddd!

howaboutthisdangit

#93 BANDOLA: I think because too many people are willing to leave the thinking to someone else, yelling when told to yell, and believing without question what they are told by their chosen “authorities”.

Like trained monkeys, they wave the flag they have been trained to wave and attack monkeys which wave other flags.

That’s not patriotism, that’s just good training.

MrJM

Fanned!

Brainspore

Jay Acker #136:

The only man in modern history who can even be mentioned in the same breadth as Hitler is Stalin, and I’m afraid even he falls short.

Well… that depends how you choose to crunch the numbers.

error404

A nice explanatory piece from todays Guardian.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/aug/19/nhs-healthcare-america

It’s far from perfect but this explains the NHS exactly.

Daemon

Ah, the “nazis did something like this, therefor it must be evil” fallacy.

Nazis were also known to eat, sleep and raise children. So, in order for people like this lady to remain logically consistent…

Daedalus

Oh, PS notary:

#1: Cost-cutting measures throughout the government system (such as actually using computers instead of mounds of paperwork)

#2: A small increase on the tax the richest Americans pay.

#3: The cost-reducing qualities of competition that an alternative to private for-profit health insurance companies creates.

And I still say the person who think Obama is Hitler is stupid. Not you, I guess. But certainly that lady.

hbl

I’m still upset about the NHS being painted as a breeding ground for radical Islamic terrorists as it was last week. So now social healthcare is a Nazi policy as well? Now I gotta be worried about being stuck in the arm by a Nazi Jihadist when I go for my annual checkup? THERE’S FLOURIDE IN MY DRINKING WATER!!!!

Wow, there’s no cure for crazy, and it looks like it’s contagious.

Stefan Jones

I bet that woman has conversations with her kitchen table all the time and is deeply puzzled by Frank’s remarks.

#17: “How did we get to this point?”

A sizeable portion of the population are gullible, unsophisticated people. Times are as rough for them as anybody else. Perhaps more so. In the past they could be kept content by politicians like Reagan and Bush W. talking bulshyt (“Act like a dumbfuck and they’ll treat you like an equal.” — J.R. “Bob” Dobbs).

Today they are in a situation where they no longer have someone they can identify with in the White House. It upsets their narrow little worldview. This makes them easy pickings for anti-big-government ideologues, lobbyists, and shills for big business. They are presented with hate objects — Nancy Pelosi, Obama, Barney Frank — and provided with scary stories about death panels, high taxes, and rationing.

I think that about explains it.

Brainspore

Why do Americans always seem (at least to me, a Swede) to confuse public healthcare with full-blown socialism, and socialism with communism?

Public healthcare is socialist, so that’s at least technically accurate. What’s always weirded me out is that Americans are fine with lots of other things being socialized as long as we don’t actually use the word “socialized.”

Who are the “selfless heroes” that our politicians are always trying to win over? The soldiers, police officers, fire fighters, and schoolteachers. All owe their salaries to the taxpayer, but nobody seems to mind that.

Anonymous

That lady is pretty ridiculous, but her concern for gov’t overreach (which I think is what she is comparing to the nazis) is legitimate. Also, obviously frank’s concern for healthcare is legitimate. I have an idea for achieving both. We could have national health insurance AND lower taxes/govt intervention. How to fund it?

DISMANTLE THE WORLDWIDE MILITARY EMPIRE OF THE UNITED STATES

its entirely unneeded and it costs more than wut the entire rest of the planet spends…worst possible investment a govt can make…never even considered because both the democrats and republicans are merely military lobbyists essentially

ab3a

I am no fan of Representative Barney Frank. However, I detest those who invoke Hitler at everything they don’t like. Adolph Hitler was in a class of evil and demagoguery all by himself. It would be hard to out-do him in any context.

Congratulations to Barney Frank for telling off this idiot.

Now, on the left, how many of you spoke of BusHitler? I see lots of hands. If you really want intelligent discourse, we need for the Left and the Right need to discuss things dispassionately and without rancor. It may be legal to insult the other side with name-calling, but it is stupid and counterproductive.

Can’t we all just get along?

fnc

As far as I can tell, these people shouting at the town hall meetings are arguing that deciding their lives aren’t worth saving should be left in the hands of a privately paid bureaucrat under their own employ instead of a government employee. Whatever.

Re : shouting in lieu of discussion. Shouting feels good. Shouting makes otherwise powerless people feel like they’re effecting change. Even when often all shouting really accomplishes is entrenching your opponent more firmly in their position, while convincing rationally minded people that you don’t have a very good argument to make and are thus forced to replace logic with volume.

Good on Mr. Frank though. I’ve seen him “discuss” issues with O’Reilly before and told him essentially the same thing he told that crazy lady.

Stefan Jones

#92: Angry soreheads with lots of time on their hands are easier to motivate (through fear and misinformation) than level-headed people who read newspapers and don’t let fear rule their lives.

Orpheline

To paraphrase John Stuart Mill, not all conservatives are stupid; but most stupid people are conservative.

Well no, not stupid: ignorant. Much of the rank and file right-wing support base has never learned how to think, to use their minds. They’re in a big, complex, chaotic world they don’t understand; they feel powerless, scared and threatened. They’re vulnerable to this sort of rhetoric because they don’t know how to sort the truth from the crap.

They desperately want someone to give them simple directions – after all, right = good and left = bad is at least easy to understand.

So… Anyone got some good ideas for changing the situation?

Please?

Anonymous

Just so you know – the crazy lady was crazy, a Laroucheite. They supports single-payer, FWIW; anything less is a “nazi” plan in their view.

peterbruells

@143 Umm.. let ‘em opt out of mandatory insurance? With no provisions to get back in?

Sekino

That said, I don’t think Frank’s comments helped at all. When you respond to ignorance with sarcasm and disdain, nobody wins.

What?? Crass ignorance has been enabled for way too long. Disdain and fast dismissal is the only appropriate response to someone who can’t be bothered to do a 15 minute basic research on history and politics before discussing it.

Frank (and common sense) won that one. Big time.

keanon

To be frank, I was sympathetic to those who felt Bush/Cheney/Neo-Con mob were Fascists.

They lied to us to go to preemptively invade another country that was a threat to “our way of life.” They imprisoned people indefinitely, tortured people, spied on large numbers of American citzens, and stomped all over democratic discourse through intimidation such as arresting protesters at public events. All of these things happened in Spain, Italy, and Germany before WW2.

Not so much sympathy from me with those after Obama, though. The guy just wants more Americans to have access to affordable health care. Calling that fascist is nauseating and laughable all at once.

…then there’s the hilarity of the cries of “MARXIST!” and “FASCIST!” at the same time. As if those two ideologies are not diametrically opposed. Hilarious. Seems that not only is our health care system shot, but perhaps the quality of our high school-level political science and history courses may be crumbling as well.

Piers W

#163 Daemon

They ate children !!!!

Ito Kagehisa

Please explain this to me in a way that makes sense, in a way that allows me to avoid moving to the moon.

How’s this: the financial services axis bought themselves a bailout, and now they are buying themselves a “grass roots movement”.

It’s not just politicians that are for sale, you know.

mdh

So proud to call him my Congressman, and anxiously awaiting the opportunity to call him my Senator when Ted’s run is up. (Hang in there Ted, we still need you!!)

Takuan

ah republicans;
http://rawstory.com/blog/2009/08/idaho-gop-leader-tea-party-arrested/

mdh

I bet that lady only gets paid if she keeps a straight face.

mdh

Now, on the left, how many of you spoke of BusHitler?

Better question, how many of us brought guns to Bush rallies – and how long would we have lasted if we had.

Yeah, exactly.

Talia

#40:

“Now, on the left, how many of you spoke of BusHitler? I see lots of hands.”

Oh really? Over the internet? Impressive. I wish I had the power to spy on people through their computers too. :p

homestarrunrun

Even if the US gets its healthcare option, I’m still going to do everything possible to move to Canada. Whether or not we get health care options is irrelevant. We’re still a group of power-mad panicking idiots. We know little to nothing about the world around us. We have these displays of idiocy go on for months at a time. Big corporate interests rule every aspect of a government. Not only that, we use our wealth and nuclear arsenal to bully our closest allies into following us into ludicrous wars (e.g. Vietnam, current Iraq clusterfuck)

Canada seems more understanding that no one country can rule by itself. Canadians aren’t bombarded with a neverending torrent of FUD from their news media, they realize that bad things happen but take them in stride and move on when necessary. Their crime rates are nearly universally lower than the US. They have ratified the Kyoto Protocol and even Conservatives seem to understand that the environment is important and about to collapse. They have 4 parties in Parliament, on all sides of the political spectrum. They seem to be the better, more sustainable civilization and I will move to the greener pasture.

Roach

@ 39 – Lyndon Larouche’s followers were absolutely not content during Bush’s or Clinton’s terms.

I’m astonished by how many people here think only Republicans have crazies on their side. Is it a “my mother, drunk or sober” thing?

Anonymous

People watching this from outside the US should bear a few things in mind:

1. This is new. That’s why it’s on the news. It’s a worrisome development, and it is an indication that some people are going to get hurt, but no, it does not mean the US is about to erupt into pandemonium. Europe is where political demonstrations involve molotov cocktails against the cops and random arson against cars and stores. Even with this nuttiness, the US remains a relatively calm place.

2. This is not just right wing astroturf. The right wing machine knows full well not to go up against a brusque curmudgeon like Barney Frank. This kind of tactic is best done against mealy mouthed wimps. So the people who faced against Barney Frank were lone nuts acting without orders from any puppeteer. And who are still able to gain access to Barney Frank’s public appearances. The US is not yet in full lockdown mode.

3. While the right wing fringe sinks the party, the rest of us republicans have no choice but to look at starting a third, centrist party. Good thing the Bull Moose trademark is abandonware.

peterbruells

@163 Well, the Nazi did sponsor scientific program to prove the dangers of smokings. Had really good results no one dared to look at and quote from for decades after.

Keith

Now, on the left, how many of you spoke of BusHitler? I see lots of hands. If you really want intelligent discourse, we need for the Left and the Right need to discuss things dispassionately and without rancor. It may be legal to insult the other side with name-calling, but it is stupid and counterproductive.

That’s a false equivalency. The “Bushitler” left were outliers, not taken seriously by the mainstream liberal establishment or the moderate Democrats in the government. The Birthers and anti-Health Care bullies not only get their talking points from Republican Media outlets (mostly FoxNews and FreeRepublic) but elected GOP officials are carrying water for them on the Senate floor.

But hey, whatever helps you sleep at night, thinking that your side isn’t the only one full of frothing lunatics and racists.

Anonymous

I didn’t understand the objection to socialist health care in the US, until I came to realise that “socialism” is something that really scares a lot of Americans. Seriously. They don’t see Marx’s ideas as a failed social experiment from which things can be learned and some of the better ideas adopted, rather it is akin to satanism or pedophilia, something for which there is no excuse, to which there can be no quarter given. They don’t care how good (or bad) the new health plan might be, if it’s socialist then it is inherently wrong.

And while I do understand a level of apprehension about giving fiscal control to government in general, it’s better than a system where some private company decides unilaterally what you can and can’t do with your medical coverage for which you have no recourse (you can’t vote the CEO of a medical insurance company out of office) and for which they charge 8 to 10 times what the same service would cost in a socialised medicine country. Who going to pay for it? You’re already paying for it, through the nose!

Talia

#46 the right wing crazies have just managed to be a lot louder. Not to mention they get backed up by the media crazies like Beck & company.

dculberson

I have never accused public transportation of being Hitler.

Anonymous

We Must Stop Socialism

This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the U.S. Department of Energy.

I then took a shower in the clean water provided by a municipal water utility.

After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC-regulated channels to see what the National Weather Service of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration determined the weather was going to be like, using satellites designed, built, and launched by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration.

I watched this while eating my breakfast of U.S. Department of Agriculture-inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.

At the appropriate time, as regulated by the U.S. Congress and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the U.S. Naval Observatory, I get into my National Highway Traffic Safety Administration-approved automobile and set out to work on the roads build by the local, state, and federal Departments of Transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issued by the Federal Reserve Bank.

On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the U.S. Postal Service and drop the kids off at the public school.

After spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the workplace regulations imposed by the Department of Labor and the Occupational Safety and Health administration, enjoying another two meals which again do not kill me because of the USDA, I drive my NHTSA car back home on the DOT roads, to my house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and Fire Marshal’s inspection, and which has not been plundered of all its valuables thanks to the local police department.

And then I log on to the internet — which was developed by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Administration — and post on Freerepublic.com and Fox News forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can’t do anything right.

via ozone on fark.com

peterbruells

@146 I really, really can’t hear the “Europeans bombed the shit out of each other while we Americans were so sane and peaceful” anymore. Because it’s simply not true.

For one thing, WW II was just a part II, not even a sequel. Too many things were unresolved after the first part .

Second, the US was involved in quite a few wars on her own, often started by her and sometimes the cause of war was faked as well. Guys, you are sitting on a whole continent taken from the natives, despite the myths that it was either terra nullius or given to you. (And yes, that’s the way it happens in history – my ancestors came from Asia, too. Water under the bridge.)

Your greatest fortune is that you are an island power with a whopping large island shared with just two other countries, both smaller than you, and, IIRC, you went to war with both of them.

Believe me, it’s a tad different when you are living on a continent where lots of competing regional and later on world powers share borders and have to find an equilibrium.

mdh

If you really want intelligent discourse, we need for the Left and the Right need to discuss things dispassionately and without rancor.

I seem to remember waling down Broadway in NYC with a couple hundred thousand rancorous friends a few years back. I did so carrying an American Flag.

I have yet to hear intelligent discourse posed in disagreement to Obama’s ideas. Can you direct me to some?

Ned613

Yes ANTINOUS, I’m a straw man for you to cut down at the knees and impress your fellow Happy Mutants with your awesome intellect.

Talia

Intelligent discourse is a tool of the liebrul media and sekrit muslin terrists ;)

BookGuy

@daedalus

O.K., now I’m scared. I was O.K. with alien Nazi Muslims, but now that I come to find out they’re teenagers? A line has been crossed.

peterbruells

@172 Perhaper “bigger” would’ve been a better term? My English not too that good, I’m afraid. I was thinking in terms of population, military and industry.

freetard

@ #33 Davidasposted: I believe the reason so many Americans behave this way is that they have no idea of what manners are. They have no concept that their right to be rude asshats was hard-won with the blood of millions of Communists (gasp!), Godless Chinese (gasp!), tea-drinking Brits (gasp!), and sexually deviant Frenchmen (OMG!). They see themselves as the saviours of the World, rather than the johnny-come-latelys who only decided to help defeat the forces of Evil when they themselves were threatened. I’m convinced that this has lead to a culture where respect for others’ opinions and beliefs is undervalued; one that the rest of us around the world look at with a mixture of amusement and horror. Even to this day, America’s wars are seen as thinly-disguised attempts to preserve their own way of life (extravagant, wasteful, and selfish) through rude behaviour.

So, this attitude has lead to the current situation we see, where so-called ‘ordinary’ citizens think it’s perfectly acceptable to accuse their leaders of being Nazis and Communists, to deploy Rhetoric without Logic, and to generally demonstrate to the rest of the world why it’s really nice to not be an American.

As Barney Frank says in this clip, it’s a testament to the power of the First Amendment.

Captain Squiffy

Jesus, I can’t wait to go back to my high school teaching gig. Last year I had to take a meeting with a parent who insisted that Obama is an “islam” who wants to destroy America from within. If Frank was arguing with a dining room table last night, I’ll be trying to enlighten the Raymour & Flanigan showroom.

gobo

Now, on the left, how many of you spoke of BusHitler? I see lots of hands.

Well, no, you’re imagining lots of hands. There frankly weren’t a lot of Bush/Hitler comparisons during his time in office, not even among the radical lefties; he was generally thought of as an ineffectual dolt with an unfortunate habit of taking orders from God. The current ridiculous Obama/Hitler comparisons come from what the right-wing moonbats are imagining as a sort of socialist/communist secret plot to give us healthcare we can afford. Oh, the terror.

Anonymous

After all the america bashing in these comments I just want to add: Yeah we’re a little behind you from Europe, but not by THAT much. Don’t forget, just seventy years ago you guys blew yourselves up… for the second time, and were happily slicing up the world however you saw fit.

Camp Freddie

I’m sure Obama will turn into a real-life Citizen Kane. The debates remind me of the scenes where Kane is alternately accused of being a communist and a fascist.

Anonymous

wow…Fox News is continually the Goofus in the “Goofus & Gallant” equation

peterbruells

@100 While I agree that your political discourse is usually a lot more civilized and saner than these current examples of stupidy, I have to point out that political demonstrations in Europe *not* make use of molotow cocktails â€“ when this happens, it’s usually riots organized by leftist (not that they actually have a programme, though) youth rioting. Worrisome in itself, of course.

OTOH, we do not get bombed abortion clinics, at least not nearly that many.

However, the main reason why many Europeans find scenes like about the women or birthers disconcerting is, that they are shown and presented by the media as if there was actually a point. I saw the Fox take on this scene and it left me literally speechless. I know that Americans pride themselves on the fact that everybody can have their say, but really: Those people a nutters. Bonkers. To quote Dara O’Briain: “IT’S WATER!” Whatever the fear people might have, whatever valid points buried deep in their brains: They are village idiots and they deserve to be cut off and ignored after they’ve spoken. Yes, and they deserve to be ridiculed.

I was mighty glad that she had her say – uninterrupted, as I might add – but that the majority applauded Mr. Frank after his quite justified put-down.

mdh

I believe the reason so many Americans behave this way is that they have no idea of what manners are.

Manners are what you redirect discussion to when you’re losing a debate, so that nobody notices the whole point of the debate was to distract you from the pickpocket.

The con never changes.

teapot

Every time I see stuff like this I am so glad that I dont live in the USA with republican idiots who keep things moving as non-progressively as possible.

So stupid…. Why aren’t all the yanks on shooting sprees targeting these morons? They would be seriously increasing Anerica’s GDIQ if they did.

(thats right, ‘gross domestic intelligence quotient’)

guydmmann

@ #33 Davidasposted: I think the reason so many americans are so willing to believe alternate facts is because they are religiously indoctrinated. Religious indoctrination tells you that there is another set of facts which don’t require any proof which you must believe to be true. Once you have that sort of indoctrination you are primed to accept information without proof or analysis.

teapot

respect, #28

so true

demidan

Follow this link to a sad/stupid/crazy link from Gawker.
http://gawker.com/5340220/town-hall-crazies-go-through-the-ideological-rabbit-hole

WTF? Truly WTF?

J France

What do so many US citizens have against treating their countrymen and women fairly? Why is it that attempting to extend basic right and equal health care access to all is being demonised?

I know people drank too much “less government intervention” koolaid for a while there, but even in the midst of these unregulated systems failing… there is no change of heart.

And how on Earth can a national debate be so blatantly hijacked by people who don’t actually know what is being discussed? Nearly 50% of the population apparently think there will be elderly death-warrants if your care gets too expensive, or won’t yeild a “survivable” outcome under the proposed system.

AND THAT’S BECOME A TALKING POINT!! It has NO relevence to the bill at hand. NONE. Fantasy land stuff.

I mean, it’s a complex issue and has been poorly explained – and being explained peicemeal is helping no-one. But generally when people try to derail intelligent debates like this the media, general public…everyone – not just some standalone representative – makes a note that that is irrelevent, is not true etc, and we move on to relevent issues.

Everyone is so afraid of offending the dipshits and dumbarses, while their uniformed histrionics slowly erode any value Obama and his admin had to the idea of a “new” america. Someone has to stand up to here.. is it that much of a political suicide to call it call it like it is?

Are we seeing the first real, good justification for eradicating democracy in the USofA? It’s probably time for a dictatorship if this is where popular public opinion is pushing the nation.

Stefan Jones

Lyndon LaRouche is a Democrat only to the extent that he calls himself one. He is not, by any definition, a leftist, liberal, progressive or any other niche associated with Democrats.

The best description for his spot on the political spectrum might be “in the basement polishing turnips.”

druranium

#137 “Can a USian comment on how LaRouche is viewed?”

He is viewed as a paranoid extremist nutjob with a warped view of history and the world in general. I can’t believe these LaRouchies are getting airtime again. What a flashback to decades gone by, man. Tune in tomorrow to find out which group of supporters of which obscure political figure will level new charges of socialism, nazism, cannibalism, satanism, witchdoctorism, and fascism at the currently elected president of the united states. Can’t wait!
shameful times for the US, and definitely has nothing to do with healthcare.

Anonymous

I couldn’t watch the Fox news bit.. I just couldn’t. I’ve had to see that crappy coverage for so long it just gets to me. Heck, I don’t even feel that much for the healthcare issue either way, slightly for the idea proposed.. just can’t hear them go at it again.

netsharc

Has no one said yet, that is a Churchillian moment for Mr. Frank. Awesome!

Anonymous

According to the (possibly biased) BBC, the US spends 11% of its GDP (or over 7 grand a person) on health coverage. The UK spends about half of that on both counts and tends to get better outcomes.

Someone wondered how health covered could increase while not costing more? Maybe Obama looked at those figures.

civver3

Sweet verbal pwnage.

Anonymous

As it was put on “Wait Wait Don’t Tell Me” the other day, “Give me liberty, AND give me death!”

buddy66

So Lyndon LaRouche is again on the loose? The lunacy level is set at eleven. Woooo.

My comrades and I should have squashed him back when he was Lyn Marcus.

Anonymous

Yeah Barney…

darren

I think this was a very good teachable moment for young men everywhere: the cute girl you kinda like might be bat-shit insane, so watch yourself.

Stefan Jones

These fools are all over, and they’re not all LaRouchies. I just heard some coverage of a local town hall. “Sit down and let us take our country back!” “Do you swear to protect the constitution?”

Ignorant soreheads. Ignorant soreheads empowered by their self-righteous delusions.

orangebag

thankyou Boba Fett Diop for a most informative link!

As a European who (more than?)occasionally succumbs to anti-USian prejudice I was pleasantly surprised by the reasonableness of much of the discussion in the complete video.

(In case you missed it http://www.necn.com/Boston/NECN-Extra/2009/08/18/Rep-Frank-condemns-those/1250643022.html from boba fett diop)

gadgetophile

It’s just stunning to watch this unfold, and casts a pall over USA’s reputation. Do you guys realise what the insane zealotry and rage in these videos looks like to viewers from other countries?

It feels like you guys are slowly rotting from within. Freedom of speech is important. I just don’t understand why the entire media and rational population isn’t just pointing and laughing, rather than being amazed when ONE polititian does.

demidan

@105 By God I think you are right on there Churchill would have been proud of Frank!

Takuan

http://rawstory.com/blog/2009/09/right-wing-mom-cries-on-cnn/

Takuan

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lee-camp/watch-why-hitlers-unborn_b_262206.html

Anonymous

Barney Frank vs Lindon LaRouched…always good to make the Frank supporters cheer

Alex_M

Well, it’s easy to say Europe and the USA are just as bad. But my experience from living on both sides of the pond for long periods that’s just not the case right now. The US is worse off. The polarization in the last decade has been so extreme it’s like nothing in Europe, except maybe Italy. (And you don’t want to be Italy politically. Not even Italy wants to be Italy – it’s just it’s always the other guy’s fault.)

But this kind of public vitriol would be practically unheard of in Northern Europe. It’s both politically and culturally incorrect. But more importantly, to the extent that there’s extremism, it’s not been cynically embraced by the mainstream parties.

The USA is also simply less rational. We believe less in evolution than anyone else in the Western world except Turkey (Northern Europeans being at the top of the chart). Then there’s global warming and everything else where science is replaced by ideology.

This isn’t to say the USA has always been the worst; there was violent protest against the New Deal, but that was nothing compared to the right-left schisms in 20′s-30′s Germany, Italy and Spain.

But that paranoid/conspiracy theory streak is a weird constant in American politics. From Obama’s birth certificate to Kennedy being a papal pawn. I really can’t think of any European equivalent to it.

Stefan Jones

I honestly don’t understand how LaRouche is still alive; anyone with so much bile and hate in him should have bust an artery years ago.

Maybe he’s actually dead, and he speeches are now delivered by animatronic dummy.

Or he’s undead, kept semi-alive by sucking the life-essences out of baby bunnies.

Ignatz

@MDH: This is why we Americans are perceived as backward idiots. It is possible to disagree with someone without frothing at the mouth and calling into question their patriotism, parentage, cleanliness, and opinions about goats.

And as far as pickpockets go, my pocket’s already being picked. I’d just prefer it not be picked by an insurance company CEO who’s going to spend it all on electric dog polishers and fur sinks.

Takuan

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/aug/21/whole-foods-healthcare-mackey

Takuan

http://progressivenation.us/2009/08/19/the-republican-party-is-turning-into-a-cult/

bklynchris

GEEKCANADADAD?

What the hell does Jenny McCarthy have to do with this discourse? What a non sequitar…. I mean, unless, of course……

Although, its nice a Canadian is supportive of our struggle for national healthcare.

That chick was fascinating and hot, I hope someone interviews her. She “looks” sane, I wonder what her thought process is.

Antinous / Moderator

One of my yoga students, who’s in his 80s, says that that crazy Obama detractors sound just like crazy Alf Landon supporters in the 1936 election. Roosevelt was accused of being a Jew (thus subversive) just like Obama is accused of being a Muslim (thus a terrorist supporter.) Social Security was characterized as a Communist plot just like universal healthcare coverage is accused of being a Socialist plot.

It’s not just stupidity; it’s stale stupidity.

Talia

To be fair, baby bunny life essences are delicious

Takuan

what are the applicable laws in the state this ridiculous woman lives in regarding committal for insanity? She’s obviously a danger to herself and others. The first amendment is about free speech, not insane, public ravings. Does anyone really think she would pass screening by a panel of psychiatrists?

Alex_M

@#104 Well, you’re on to something there, but I think it’s more how Americans practice their religion.

Religious Americans are overall wackier than religious Europeans. American Christians are less likely to believe in Evolution. They’re more fundamentalist. They’re more likely to believe the Apocalypse is near and things like the Rapture, which aren’t very widely held among European protestants.

Essentially, Americans have a more pre-Enlightenment/Rousseau theological view, where God is very physically present and scientifically measurable. I think it’s that which puts people on the track towards irrationality more than religion in itself.

Takuan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kymkeVaSh-0

Ned613

This is a classic false flag operation. She was obviously planted by the left. Just like all those purported racists at McCain rallies.

She is a straw man so the Barney Frank can look skilled and able putting her down in front of his adoring constituents.

Antinous / Moderator

Does that explain you, too?

demidan

I am watching FoxNews while reading this thread,(I need something to yell at for sport as my toddler is too cute to get angry with). As they where going to commercial break they did show part of the clip posted here, but they of course stopped short

MooseDesign

Thank you Barney.

Kid Geezer

@#4: With you as far as Barney and Howard. Not Rahm, though. Just because he can swear alot and stick a knife in someone while smiling doesn’t mean he’s worth shit in this debate. And he isn’t, near as I can tell. The Repubs have been punking him from the start. The only values he has revolve around his ego.

Anonymous

Nazis: for when communists just aren’t scary enough any more.

buddy66

You Yurpeans (and some locals) are missing the subtext of all the drama: ‘THERE’S A N****R IN THE WHITE HOUSE!’

And how close would a man with a gun have gotten to a George Bush event?

or let’s say a black man?

Anonymous

You Americans. You’re such a funny group of people.

deckard68

I’d like to think she’s just really dim and sincerely afraid — a person intellectually unable to distinguish between socialism under fascist dictatorships versus socialist programs in countries like Sweden, Switzerland, Britain, Japan, France, etc.

Not all of these demonstrators are liars who are intentionally misrepresenting the health care options that can exist in this country. Some may actually be stupid.

ofindustry

“There frankly weren’t a lot of Bush/Hitler comparisons during his time in office”

to be absolutely fair i remembered quite a few off the top of my head. A google image search for “Bush hitler” found many of them.

it’s dumb no matter which side does it.

arborman

Americans are so cute when they froth at the mouth.

See also Albertans here in Canada. They have universal health care, some of the best in the world. They are wallowing in public money thanks to selling out their future to the oil companies. So their government is doing everything it can get away with to undermine public health care. Mostly because their talking points come from Republicans via their oil company masters.

Anonymous

Why don’t we see people waiving around photos of the sick & deceased that were denied coverage, walk into your local 7/11 and find the donation jars of uninsured children desperately needing donations for treatments their parents can’t afford. Wave around the photo’s of Insurance CEO’s yachts to better understand the motives and conflicts of interest in US’s insurance system.

Patrick Austin

@#60: Do I *really* need to go and dig up a hundred stories about crazy delusional people in Europe? For all our problems, our two party system has shut out some of the really despicable folks that get to actually influence policy in most democracies.

Our crazy people get a lot of press because we’ve got a tradition of giving them a lot of press. That’s fine, IMO. I don’t give a shit if the Italians think we’re nuts, because frankly, they’ve got plenty of their own issues to work through.

Ito Kagehisa

Your greatest fortune is that you are an island power with a whopping large island shared with just two other countries, both smaller than you, and, IIRC, you went to war with both of them.

What? What the hell happened to Canada? Did the USA conquer Quebec while I wasn’t paying attention?

hug h

The US now ranks 25th out of 30 in high income countries on life expectancy.
25th out of 30 in infant mortality.
22nd in school performance on science and math.
We are dead last in public investment.

We reap the crop of an uneducated electorate and the excessive influence of money in politics.
Not a pretty picture.

ill lich

“How dare Obama take away my right to die from a pre-existing condition, how DARE he!!”

gollux

When can we get the one way time machine portal fully functioning so we can give these people a true Godwin experience, tattoo them with the appropriate symbol and pop ‘em off directly into Auschwitz. They really need a firsthand lesson in the reality of the term and what it really represents.

hershmire

#12, this is why I haven’t owned a 24 since the ’04 elections. I don’t miss this kind of crap one bit.

spazzm

That’s one awesome beatdown. I almost feel sorry for the nutbag.

Here’s another reply that I think I would have been funny, but would probably not have made it onto TV:

“Why do you support these Nazi policies?”

“Becauze I vant to gaz all ze gay lefty jewz!”

spazzm

#122, Hug G:
“We reap the crop of an uneducated electorate and the excessive influence of money in politics.”

Indeed. I’d be willing to bet that lady is home schooled.

Tdawwg

Do you guys realise what the insane zealotry and rage in these videos looks like to viewers from other countries? It feels like you guys are slowly rotting from within.

Just keep rubber-stamping our wars, and you all can say whatever you like.

andyhavens

@#114 Antinous: Most stupidity is pretty stale. The skills necessary to come up with fresh stupidity — creativity, inquisitiveness, open mindedness — often lead one away from stupidity. The prerequisites of ongoing stupidity usually preclude originality.

One of the reasons I tend to think that the “liberal” label often indicates more intelligent thought; even if you’re wrong, you’re at least trying to be wrong in a different way.

jfrancis

If she thinks Obama’s plan is a Nazi plan, wait until she finds out what kind of health care plan is in place in Israel.

TheCrawNotTheCraw

I’m SO glad Rep. Frank responded forcefully to this nonsense.

Ugly Canuck

So who really is closer to Hitler and his ways, Bush or Obama?
Which one set up US government death squads,( or”panels”), for real?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8211088.stm

Oh right can’t call Bush Hitler….why not?

Ugly Canuck

Well the US “news media” may not have reported these allegations Re: Xe (once Blackwater – they know about “re-branding”, kinda like what the media are now doing to Obama).

It seems other people’s suffering and dieing is a lucrative thing, for some well-off Americans.

Can I get deputized to kill people too?

http://cryptome.org/0001/black-prince.htm

I ask again: who is/was closer to Hitler, in spirit? Which appeals to difference, to justify killing/maiming? Bush? Or Obama?

Ugly Canuck

You really should read those allegations in the Nation article linked to in the cryptome piece above: smuggling sawed-off machine guns with silencers to iraq to use in Blackwaters’ sport of killing Iraqis…where were the protesters with guns when you went into Iraq, for the US mission of “self-defense”? Oh yeah, intimidating the peaceniks…

Meanwhile, how many YEARS has it been now since the Dems won Congress promising to end the US “mission” to Iraq, I mean, the War? Who cares anymore, eh?

To go about armed in the midst of peace is not freedom, it is savagery and barbarism. Don’t Americans have teachers anymore?

hershmire

Er, make that “owned a TV.” Time for bed.

Duffong

Well said, though I feel bad for the dining room table.

Anonymous

@Das Memsen and J France– For the record, because no one else has said so, I agree with every word in your comments. Sigh.

Anonymous

1) This is the same Barney Frank who accused W. of passive ethnic cleansing in the wake of Katrina, so let’s hold off on declaring him Chief Guardian against rhetorical hyperbole.

2) I’m not Team Crazy Lady, either. Calling someone or something “Nazi” short circuits any kind of meaningful conversation because it is such a loaded word. I’m usually as anti-politically correctism as you can get, but there is principle and there is practicality.

That said, I don’t think Frank’s comments helped at all. When you respond to ignorance with sarcasm and disdain, nobody wins.

3) It’s a shame she didn’t stop after that first paragraph and leave her sign at home. What the health care reform debate needs to focus on is the fact that: (a) This is really crappy economic timing to try and throw even more money at a problem in an attempt to fix it and (b) The fix is being proposed in a time of increasing unease over increased government action and involvement — an unease that needs addressed, not dismissed.

Unfortunately, the sad fact is it’s easier to get people motivated to protest through fear and blatant emotional appeals than through reasoning, so a lot of Republicans are taking the path of least resistance by going the way of the death panel and echoes of Nazism.

gobo

Barney Frank is one of our smartest congresspeople, and I’m proud to see him representing reason. Well done, Barney.

Boba Fett Diop

About fucking time.

Alex_M

@#67: No offense but, Switzerland: socialist?! See, that’s the problem.

Switzerland is easily the most conservative nation in Europe (and in some respects, in the western world). To begin with, almost no taxes. But they’re also really, really socially conservative. Women were only guaranteed the right to vote in 1990!

Switzerland isn’t a single-payer system like the UK or Sweden (the other neutral country with a similar name that’s practically Switzerland’s polar opposite politically). Switzerland is a mandated-insurance system, more similar to Obama’s plan than single-payer systems.

I mean, when many Americans feel that the conservative Swiss are ‘socialist’ on health-care.. What does that make us?

yri

You go, Barney! Exactly the kind of put-down such nonsense deserves.

consideredopinion

Credit to Barney Frank. He doesn’t avoid questions from his constituents and dissenters, and appears to be treating this latest batch of protestors as directly and evenly as he did Code Pink. So good on Barney Frank!

gadgetophile

#70 Yeah I do wave my hands around a lot when I speak, but I’m not Italian.

My point was, in New Zealand we have our share of nutjobs, and we have people across the political spectrum.

However, if one of them stood up and claimed a rational government policy was a “Nazi policy” they would be plastered all over the national news as the completely batshit insane person they were.

Glenn Fleishman

Can we put Barney Frank, Rahm Emanuel, and one good cop (Howard Dean?) in a room full of all the deathers, birthers, and beyonders, and come back when the three of them have made them all cry?

Barney Frank for superhero!

technogeek

Hear, hear. I wish more politicians would learn that it *is* acceptable to say “If you’re asking that question, you don’t have any understanding of the issue or of history, and you haven’t been listening to my attempts to explain the issue — so I’m going to assume you just want to posture and ignore you rather than waste everyone’s time. You’ve had your say, dumb as it was. Next question, please.”

Maneki Nico

The fear of creeping socialism is alive and well and living in America.

Steaming Pile

Oh, snap! Lady, you got TOLD!

Anonymous

You go Barney!! Finally someone standing up to the crazy’s and not sugar coating it. Well done, hope more democrats follow your lead. How refreshing!

Anonymous

America is the heart of Boing Boing, mutants happy…and happy to be frothing! ;)
Europe is so boring……..

Anonymous

It seems that all of our media has decided to forget Godwins Law.

Isn’t that odd? The Media seems to remember it when we had a white GOP president. Why not now?

Boba Fett Diop

This is awesome, particularly considering the fact that she brings up Lyndon LaRouche at one point in her bizarre ramblings.

I’m more concerned about the people turning up to town meetings with guns, however.

Anonymous

Europe is where political demonstrations involve molotov cocktails against the cops and random arson against cars and stores.

Suddenly I realize that California is part of Europe.

You know, a lot of stuff makes more sense now.

Anonymous

#154, yeah, I just read that in the news. I really should keep my mouth shut sometimes.

–#100

Takuan

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2009/08/24/terry/

Anonymous

The whole so-called debate has greatly saddened me. I’m sick of the general asshattery that has pervaded public discourse over the last year and a half in the US. I’m also sick of having to wait 10 days to see a doctor if I have an UTI today. I’m sick of going to urgent care to get x-rays simply because I know there won’t be a wait there (I play ice hockey and generally need an x-ray about once every two years due to on-ice incidents). FSM forbid that I might need an MRI someday. That will take 3 months and I better not object to going in at 4 am on a random Tuesday.

I’ve had it with the status quo. It does no US citizen any good. Things need to change. If not, the current slide into thrid-world status will only continue to gather momentum.

jerwin

>Barney Frank is one of our smartest congresspeople, and I’m proud to see him representing reason. Well done, Barney.

Curiously, on free republic, the nimrods there have come to the opposite conclusion.

Gutierrez

Okay, had to go back and get some background to try and bridge the current administration Nazism logic gap. So they’re trying to say that the possible socialization of parts of health care is a slippery slope leading to a massive rise in social welfare, which was a component of the facist governments of the WW2 era, one of which was the Nazi government, and therefore Obama is a new Hitler. QED?

I’m glad Congressman Frank lived up to his last name.

Piers W

Isn’t Canada larger than the US?

Antinous / Moderator

Politics aside, I grew up in Massachusetts, and this reminds me of every dinnertime conversation of my childhood.

Jack Daniel

Ladies & Gents, we have found the cure for Sarah Palin. It was under our noses the whole time.

elladan

And now, watch Fox “News” coverage of this event: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uji-jjp0rs4

Excuse me while I throw up a little in my mouth.

Nelson.C

Wait, if Obama is Sheriff Bart, does that make Biden the Waco Kid? And Clinton, Lilli von Schtupp?

So who’s playing Hedy, uh, Hedley Lamarr?

error404

ALEX M , DECKARD 68 said there were socialist programs in Switzerland, not that Switzerland was socialist.

small point.

maralenenok

The longer video is even more awesome. “Which one of you wants to yell first?” Does anyone have a link to the complete town hall? It sounds like a laugh riot.

peterbruells

@18 Considering that study upon study show that the U.S. health care system in one of the most expensive and least efficient – mot effective, mind you! – one in the world, I fail to see in which way these three requirements can’t live together.

se7a7n7

It looks like there is a book about him about to come out in October…

Barney Frank: The Story of America’s Only Left-handed, Gay, Jewish Congressman, written by Stuart Weisberg

I think the book sales just doubled

Boba Fett Diop

Complete video:

http://www.necn.com/Boston/NECN-Extra/2009/08/18/Rep-Frank-condemns-those/1250643022.html

das memsen

I think Obama is a spineless, corporate-dck-sckng sellout. Given that, it is AMAZING that we now have people attacking him for the complete opposite reason than they should be. He is continually watering-down the health plan, destroying our one chance to take care of our population’s needs, selling it out to the insanely rich and corrupt health corporations… I honestly don’t get why, at this stage in the game, we now have a movement attacking him when he’s actually giving in to the exact thing these morons are demanding. The White House is already rewording their statements to make it clear that the public option is no longer a prerequisite. The good guys already lost. We’re already fucked, greed won yet again, etc. etc. All that’s left is the formality of paper and ink.

So why the fuck are these town hall meetings not full of angry liberals promoting a single-payer system instead of angry lunatics who are actually getting what they want?

WTF???

noen

“Americans are so cute when they froth at the mouth.”

You mean like the Germans? Or the Italians, Russia, China, Japan, South Africa, Indonesia, France and honestly, the rest of mankind all down through history? This is nothing new, nothing unusual or even surprising. “What!? A bunch of apes are hooting about a perceived outsider and are lusting for blood? Yawwwwwwn. Let me know when they do something new.”

Fascism is such an abused word it hardly has any meaning left so maybe if we just try to understand what is going one that would help. These people are upset, they have a right to be, they are truly suffering. The problem is their anger has been displaced from from it’s proper source, big capital, the ruling class, and misdirected onto different targets: gays, “effete, decadent liberals”, illegal immigrants, or the person of Obama (instead of his race which is the real target).

The classic case is of course that of the figure of the Jew but it needn’t be. All you need is an in-group who feels they are under attack or “penetrated” by outsiders. They then scapegoat those outsiders instead of blaming the true source of their social antagonism: the ruling class. The name for such displacement is Fetish.

It is not going to be possible to talk these people out of their delusion. Fetishists feel satisfied in their fetish, they experience no need to get rid of it. So no one is going to convince these people that Obama isn’t coming for their guns, that immigrants are not taking their jobs, gays are not turning their children. Certainly not by preaching liberal tolerance. Perhaps, just perhaps, by revealing the underlying structure some progress can be made. But I wish I knew.

I think there will be violence, maybe riots and people killed. But I don’t believe, as some on the left do, that we are headed for civil war or even an attempt at overthrowing the state. What I’m more afraid of is if some clown manages to get a shot off at the prez. I fear that the state would simply use that as justification for further repressing our freedoms. I think that’s the real danger here.

Ito Kagehisa

I am no fan of Barney Frank (quite the opposite, in fact) but I love the punchline. Well said, Congressman Frank!

BookGuy

I’m kind of sorry I watched the Fox News “take” on this. I fear to watch, yet I cannot turn away.

How did we get to this point? It seems like just yesterday everybody agreed that private insurance companies, especially HMOs, were evil entities hell bent on screwing us all out of necessary health care, even inspiring movies like “John Q.” to dramatize the situation. Now that there’s even a glimmer of hope on changing that situation, everybody’s gone batshit crazy and started championing those same companies as a shining example of capitalism at work. How? Why? Is it the work only of yelling nutjobs? Is it because the President happens to be black? Are they that bitter about it?

Please explain this to me in a way that makes sense, in a way that allows me to avoid moving to the moon.

imipak

@DavidAsPosted and others asking variants of “Why does this sort of bad crazyness only happen in the USA?”: False class consciousness.

What puzzles me is this:

* if y’all are all armed to the back teeth with assault rifles and handguns and whatnot; but

* the people who get shot are almost entirely members of the proletariat underclass;

* when people like the Fox News brigade are still walking the streets, why does *no-one*, *ever*, blow one of them away?

Oh wait! The answer to the latter’s the same as the former. Agitate, educate, organise! ;)

Notary Sojac

The President has made the following assurances:

(1) 40+ million Americans who have no health insurance will now be fully covered.

(2) Those who are currently covered by Medicare or commercial insurance will have no diminution of the care they currently receive.

(3) All this will be done with no net increase in health care costs or addition to the federal deficit.

Now, who should we characterize as “dumb”?

Someone who believes all three can be done simultaneously?

Or someone who does not?

AirPillo

The President has made the following assurances:

(1) 40+ million Americans who have no health insurance will now be fully covered.

(2) Those who are currently covered by Medicare or commercial insurance will have no diminution of the care they currently receive.

(3) All this will be done with no net increase in health care costs or addition to the federal deficit.

Now, who should we characterize as “dumb”?

Someone who believes all three can be done simultaneously?

Or someone who does not?

Well it’s done here in Canada, why not the US?

That… that can’t be right! That conflicts with my beliefs, it… it… I can’t believe that! It would prove my fears wrong!

THAT CAN’T BE RIGHT! NAZI! NAZI!!! KILL THE LYING NAZI!!!

Takuan

http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/08/19/gop-senators-torture/

Maneki Nico

@171, I believe that’s a reference to the War of 1812, though, technically, there was no Canada yet then. We were still â€” cough â€” the colonies. Oh yeah, we kicked US ass too. ;-)

Tdawwg

I think Obama is a spineless, corporate-d***-s****** sellout.

Err, I don’t think that particular homophobic epithet is allowed around here, thanks.

So why the fuck are these town hall meetings not full of angry liberals promoting a single-payer system instead of angry lunatics who are actually getting what they want?

Maybe because we spend all our time here? Seriously, chill out and watch the language.

Antinous / Moderator

Oh look, the children have a new toy. Asterisks.

I’m cleaning this up. You should have known better.

Barney Frank pwns crazy lady at "town hall" meeting, effectively invoking Godwin's law.

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