Comments on: What the world will look like if/when the oceans rise. http://boingboing.net/2009/09/04/what-the-world-will.html Brain candy for Happy Mutants Fri, 24 May 2013 15:51:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/09/04/what-the-world-will.html#comment-581633 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-581633 I think what Timothy meant was think of it more like filling a martini glass. The shore sort of slopes most places so it will take slightly more water to fill the next d(h) higher than the one before, possibly enough to cause a difference in the ultimate final height. Hehe... Captcha: integral I think what Timothy meant was think of it more like filling a martini glass. The shore sort of slopes most places so it will take slightly more water to fill the next d(h) higher than the one before, possibly enough to cause a difference in the ultimate final height.

Hehe… Captcha: integral

]]> By: dilinger http://boingboing.net/2009/09/04/what-the-world-will.html#comment-581889 dilinger Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-581889 All of the real estate comments are cute. However, realize that if the sea level rises to these levels, it will most certainly be accompanied by changing climate as the ocean currents and associated temperatures change. The land which remains above water will not likely remain a nice place to live. All of the real estate comments are cute. However, realize that if the sea level rises to these levels, it will most certainly be accompanied by changing climate as the ocean currents and associated temperatures change. The land which remains above water will not likely remain a nice place to live.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/09/04/what-the-world-will.html#comment-993026 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-993026 In the comming years the earths oceans are going to rise, most if not all of the Islands and the coastal areas around the world will be submerged under water. Who to tell, how to prepare? In the comming years the earths oceans are going to rise, most if not all of the Islands and the coastal areas around the world will be submerged under water. Who to tell, how to prepare?

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/09/04/what-the-world-will.html#comment-922631 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-922631 I cannot believe the lack of genuine seriousness about these issues. This material is not in any way funny or comedic. Do you people have children, grandchildren? I do not but I have nieces and nephews and looking at the U.S. response to $4.00+ gas prices seemed serious until prices came down low enough for everyone to take the for sale signs of their gas hogging vehicles. People really do not care about anything but their own ass and their own immediate situation. Wake up!!!!! Take a "what if " attitude and take some responsibility for our current and future state of nature. Humans are pigs, all we want is more, more, more. Learn from responsible ancestors and animals. I do not expect humans to live in tepees and take only what they need from the land but for all our sakes and those who come after- start thinking about what you can do and slow down, everyone has relatives who are going to have to live in this mess of a world we have created. Trying to think myself but I don't drive, I bike, ride the bus and walk. I do not have a car but if I did just not having one has taught me some invaluable lessons. Learning to give a damn. I cannot believe the lack of genuine seriousness about these issues. This material is not in any way funny or comedic. Do you people have children, grandchildren? I do not but I have nieces and nephews and looking at the U.S. response to $4.00+ gas prices seemed serious until prices came down low enough for everyone to take the for sale signs of their gas hogging vehicles. People really do not care about anything but their own ass and their own immediate situation. Wake up!!!!! Take a “what if ” attitude and take some responsibility for our current and future state of nature. Humans are pigs, all we want is more, more, more. Learn from responsible ancestors and animals. I do not expect humans to live in tepees and take only what they need from the land but for all our sakes and those who come after- start thinking about what you can do and slow down, everyone has relatives who are going to have to live in this mess of a world we have created.

Trying to think myself but I don’t drive, I
bike, ride the bus and walk. I do not have a
car but if I did just not having one has taught
me some invaluable lessons.
Learning to give a damn.

]]> By: vjinterkosmos http://boingboing.net/2009/09/04/what-the-world-will.html#comment-582430 vjinterkosmos Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-582430 Just finished "Flood" by Stephen Baxter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_(Baxter_novel)) last night. Didn't sleep much. Just finished “Flood” by Stephen Baxter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_(Baxter_novel)) last night.
Didn’t sleep much.

]]> By: Ugly Canuck http://boingboing.net/2009/09/04/what-the-world-will.html#comment-582175 Ugly Canuck Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-582175 Yes, Tak: Harper, like GW Bush, "dances with who brought him". Unlike some other leaders I could name: http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/09/02 Now traditionally, what color were Judas goats? Yes, Tak: Harper, like GW Bush, “dances with who brought him”. Unlike some other leaders I could name:

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/09/02

Now traditionally, what color were Judas goats?

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/09/04/what-the-world-will.html#comment-582687 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-582687 Certainly one has to choose a single image to represent the idea when writing the post, and the visual effect is probably not very striking on the continental or global scales, but I feel obliged to point out that the southern tip of Manhattan island in no way represents "the world." There, I have ground my personal Yankeecentrism axe. Now I rest. Certainly one has to choose a single image to represent the idea when writing the post, and the visual effect is probably not very striking on the continental or global scales, but I feel obliged to point out that the southern tip of Manhattan island in no way represents “the world.” There, I have ground my personal Yankeecentrism axe. Now I rest.

]]> By: Ugly Canuck http://boingboing.net/2009/09/04/what-the-world-will.html#comment-581920 Ugly Canuck Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-581920 When,people,not if. As to Tim hutton's "more volume of water needed as she rises", well,let's not forget that as water warms, it expands. When,people,not if.
As to Tim hutton’s “more volume of water needed as she rises”, well,let’s not forget that as water warms, it expands.

]]> By: MossWatson http://boingboing.net/2009/09/04/what-the-world-will.html#comment-581931 MossWatson Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-581931 Can we please declare a moratorium on these "global warming = new beach front property!" jokes. seriously. Can we please declare a moratorium on these “global warming = new beach front property!” jokes. seriously.

]]> By: Takuan http://boingboing.net/2009/09/04/what-the-world-will.html#comment-581935 Takuan Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-581935 you just want that so you can get a monopoly. Then flood the market. you just want that so you can get a monopoly. Then flood the market.

]]> By: Timothy Hutton http://boingboing.net/2009/09/04/what-the-world-will.html#comment-582202 Timothy Hutton Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-582202 <b>Ugly Canuck</b> said: <blockquote>As to Tim hutton's "more volume of water needed as she rises", well,let's not forget that as water warms, it expands.</blockquote> I found <a href="http://www.seed.slb.com/v2/FAQView.cfm?ID=1166">this article</a> interesting on melting ice and displacement, esp. these paragraphs: <blockquote>When an ice cube (or an iceberg, which is a big ice cube) floats in water, then by definition the weight of the ice cube is exactly equal to the buoyancy force, which is equal to the weight of the displaced water.</blockquote> <blockquote>When the ice cube melts, its volume changes, but its weight is conserved (law of the conservation of mass). So the melted water from the ice cube has exactly the same weight as the water that was displaced by the ice cube when it was frozen -- therefore the volume of melted water fits exactly in the previously displaced volume -- and the water level stays the same.</blockquote> <blockquote>Note that this argument applies only if the ice cube is made of the same water as the water that it is floating in. This is true, for example, with the Arctic ice pack, which is made of frozen sea water. However, it is not true for Antarctic icebergs, which are blocks of fresh-water ice from the continent that are floating in salt-water sea. In this case, we must take into account that the salt water is denser than the fresh water. The fresh-water iceberg still weighs as much as the weight of the displaced salt water, but because of the difference in density, the volume of melted fresh water will be slightly greater than the displaced volume of salt water -- so when the iceberg melts, the water level will rise, although the difference is very small.</blockquote> Again, I'm asking about the <i>calculation</i> to determine the <i>volume</i> of water required to raise the sea level, <b>not</b> questioning climate changes, their causes, or their effect on the planet. Ugly Canuck said:

As to Tim hutton’s “more volume of water needed as she rises”, well,let’s not forget that as water warms, it expands.

I found this article interesting on melting ice and displacement, esp. these paragraphs:

When an ice cube (or an iceberg, which is a big ice cube) floats in water, then by definition the weight of the ice cube is exactly equal to the buoyancy force, which is equal to the weight of the displaced water.

When the ice cube melts, its volume changes, but its weight is conserved (law of the conservation of mass). So the melted water from the ice cube has exactly the same weight as the water that was displaced by the ice cube when it was frozen — therefore the volume of melted water fits exactly in the previously displaced volume — and the water level stays the same.

Note that this argument applies only if the ice cube is made of the same water as the water that it is floating in. This is true, for example, with the Arctic ice pack, which is made of frozen sea water. However, it is not true for Antarctic icebergs, which are blocks of fresh-water ice from the continent that are floating in salt-water sea. In this case, we must take into account that the salt water is denser than the fresh water. The fresh-water iceberg still weighs as much as the weight of the displaced salt water, but because of the difference in density, the volume of melted fresh water will be slightly greater than the displaced volume of salt water — so when the iceberg melts, the water level will rise, although the difference is very small.

Again, I’m asking about the calculation to determine the volume of water required to raise the sea level, not questioning climate changes, their causes, or their effect on the planet.

]]> By: Vengefultacos http://boingboing.net/2009/09/04/what-the-world-will.html#comment-581438 Vengefultacos Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-581438 Sweet. If the ocean levels go up 14m, the condo my wife and I are trying to sell will become beachfront property. Gotta add that to the real estate listing. Sweet. If the ocean levels go up 14m, the condo my wife and I are trying to sell will become beachfront property. Gotta add that to the real estate listing.

]]> By: Clemoh http://boingboing.net/2009/09/04/what-the-world-will.html#comment-581439 Clemoh Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-581439 Suddenly living in Winnipeg isn't looking so bad! Suddenly living in Winnipeg isn’t looking so bad!

]]> By: Takuan http://boingboing.net/2009/09/04/what-the-world-will.html#comment-581952 Takuan Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-581952 http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090902133625.htm http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090902133625.htm

]]> By: Ugly Canuck http://boingboing.net/2009/09/04/what-the-world-will.html#comment-582209 Ugly Canuck Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-582209 Blast! Off-topic, but further to what i said above. I see from an internet search that the metaphor of certain leaders as being the political equivalents to "judas goats" (which i had thought to be my original) has in fact been previously used by odious people: people who are rightly held up as objects of public ridicule and contempt for their vile hate-filled racist views. It's an effective way of snookering political opposition, though: to have odious figures of public contempt and hatred enunciate truths which the rulers find unpalatable. IIRC Bin Laden also said some things about the US learning how to control countries via its experiences in Central America the early 80's. But if bin Laden says so, therefore it must be false, and thus unworthy of further comment or discussion, right? So the inconvenient and unpalatable truth need not be addressed: as the stench of the person saying it blinds people to whatever validity the statement may have. It literally becomes unworthy of further discussion. But I won't be using the 'judas goat" metaphor any more. Blast! Off-topic, but further to what i said above.
I see from an internet search that the metaphor of certain leaders as being the political equivalents to “judas goats” (which i had thought to be my original) has in fact been previously used by odious people: people who are rightly held up as objects of public ridicule and contempt for their vile hate-filled racist views.

It’s an effective way of snookering political opposition, though: to have odious figures of public contempt and hatred enunciate truths which the rulers find unpalatable. IIRC Bin Laden also said some things about the US learning how to control countries via its experiences in Central America the early 80′s.

But if bin Laden says so, therefore it must be false, and thus unworthy of further comment or discussion, right?

So the inconvenient and unpalatable truth need not be addressed: as the stench of the person saying it blinds people to whatever validity the statement may have. It literally becomes unworthy of further discussion.

But I won’t be using the ‘judas goat” metaphor any more.

]]> By: Takuan http://boingboing.net/2009/09/04/what-the-world-will.html#comment-581955 Takuan Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-581955 squealing... kind of like this at 3:47 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSBHtk8Lj2Y squealing… kind of like this at 3:47
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSBHtk8Lj2Y

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/09/04/what-the-world-will.html#comment-581444 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-581444 Hmmm... Weird. I keep seeing maps like this but... oddly enough, the real estate prices don't seem to be responding to this at all. Just the opposite in fact. I guess the "free market" really is dumb? I wonder... Hmmm… Weird. I keep seeing maps like this but… oddly enough, the real estate prices don’t seem to be responding to this at all. Just the opposite in fact.

I guess the “free market” really is dumb? I wonder…

]]> By: Ugly Canuck http://boingboing.net/2009/09/04/what-the-world-will.html#comment-582213 Ugly Canuck Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-582213 Ah. Mr.Hutton, your example does not take into account differences of temperature. Water at 70 degrees F. occupies a greater volume than water at 39 degrees F. Simply warming a (closed) cup of water increases its volume: but not its mass. That is, the density of water - hence its volume - varies with temperature. And in interesting ways, too. Apparently, pure water is at maximum density (ie is most compact) at 4 degrees C. In either direction from that temp, water becomes less dense: ie, takes up a greater space. At an oceanic scale, it may matter (pun intended!) as to the absolute level of sea rise, whether the water temp averages 15 degrees C, or 17 degrees C. Ah. Mr.Hutton, your example does not take into account differences of temperature. Water at 70 degrees F. occupies a greater volume than water at 39 degrees F.

Simply warming a (closed) cup of water increases its volume: but not its mass.

That is, the density of water – hence its volume – varies with temperature. And in interesting ways, too. Apparently, pure water is at maximum density (ie is most compact) at 4 degrees C. In either direction from that temp, water becomes less dense: ie, takes up a greater space.

At an oceanic scale, it may matter (pun intended!) as to the absolute level of sea rise, whether the water temp averages 15 degrees C, or 17 degrees C.

]]> By: BritSwedeGuy http://boingboing.net/2009/09/04/what-the-world-will.html#comment-582470 BritSwedeGuy Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-582470 "London is drowning and I... Live by the river!" “London is drowning and I…
Live by the river!”

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/09/04/what-the-world-will.html#comment-581704 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-581704 @Timothy Hutton, I believe that is already factored into the "sea levels will rise by _n_ feet" calculations for the figures they give to the public. Remember that every foot of ice cap on Antarctica and Greenland has more water content than the preceding foot for the same geometric reasons as your observation. @Timothy Hutton,

I believe that is already factored into the “sea levels will rise by _n_ feet” calculations for the figures they give to the public. Remember that every foot of ice cap on Antarctica and Greenland has more water content than the preceding foot for the same geometric reasons as your observation.

]]> By: imipak http://boingboing.net/2009/09/04/what-the-world-will.html#comment-582476 imipak Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-582476 Those asking basic questions: realclimate.org and the IPCC Summary for Policymakers (and the rest of the Fourth Assessment Report) explain all. Warning, it's hideously complex. But yeah, we're all fucked. Oh yeah, and the American SouthWest is going to turn back into it's normal climate, ie arid desert. No more inland empire in California. http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=national%20geographic%20megadrought%20south-west&meta= Those asking basic questions: realclimate.org and the IPCC Summary for Policymakers (and the rest of the Fourth Assessment Report) explain all. Warning, it’s hideously complex. But yeah, we’re all fucked.

Oh yeah, and the American SouthWest is going to turn back into it’s normal climate, ie arid desert. No more inland empire in California.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=national%20geographic%20megadrought%20south-west&meta=

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/09/04/what-the-world-will.html#comment-581710 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-581710 Even with the current sea levels a large part of the Netherlands are way below sea level. This is not reflected in the so-called interactive flood map. Even with a rise of 1 meter most of the Netherlands are shown to be flooded, which is surprising when one remembers there is something like high and low tide twice a day. Being borne and raised in the Netherlands nigh 40 years ago, I don't recall ever having to wade to school or work. Even with the current sea levels a large part of the Netherlands are way below sea level. This is not reflected in the so-called interactive flood map. Even with a rise of 1 meter most of the Netherlands are shown to be flooded, which is surprising when one remembers there is something like high and low tide twice a day. Being borne and raised in the Netherlands nigh 40 years ago, I don’t recall ever having to wade to school or work.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/09/04/what-the-world-will.html#comment-582734 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-582734 I've been trying to find a map that shows the opposite; i.e. what the coastlines looked like during the last major ice age. Anyone got a link? I’ve been trying to find a map that shows the opposite; i.e. what the coastlines looked like during the last major ice age.
Anyone got a link?

]]> By: Timothy Hutton http://boingboing.net/2009/09/04/what-the-world-will.html#comment-582226 Timothy Hutton Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-582226 <b>Ugly Canuck</b> - This is way off the topic of my original question, but let me simply say: 1) It wasn't my example, it was from the <a href="">linked-to website (SEED). 2) The text I quoted was discussing the water level when ice (from cube to berg-sized) melts, the principle should be the same. 3) The linked-to article mentioned the curious property of water that you mention (varying density around a pivot-point). 4) My original question never mentioned ice, ice caps, melting, or anything else (like absorbancy) - it was simply about how to calculate the amount of water need to raise the ocean levels across the planet, considering the wildly-varying terrain the water covers as it rises. I purposely left out any discussion about the source of the water that would cause the sea levels to rise. The graphic the original article links to is a very simplistic set of overlays (anything under sea level + "n" meters gets shaded as underwater), I was asking about the <i>amount</i> of water needed to raise the sea level by a certain amount (say 1 meter). For the sake of convienience, let's say aliens were to come in with an inexhaustable supply of saltwater that exactly matches the average temperature of the oceans right now (temp neither rises or lowers), and the polar ice caps are unaffected. Now, if there were a meter measuring the water the aliens added to the oceans to raise the sea level one meter, what would that meter read? That's the question I'm asking... I'm guessing there isn't an answer - the calculation is likely too complex - because no one has pointed me towards anything (yet).</a> Ugly Canuck – This is way off the topic of my original question, but let me simply say:

1) It wasn’t my example, it was from the linked-to website (SEED).

2) The text I quoted was discussing the water level when ice (from cube to berg-sized) melts, the principle should be the same.

3) The linked-to article mentioned the curious property of water that you mention (varying density around a pivot-point).

4) My original question never mentioned ice, ice caps, melting, or anything else (like absorbancy) – it was simply about how to calculate the amount of water need to raise the ocean levels across the planet, considering the wildly-varying terrain the water covers as it rises.

I purposely left out any discussion about the source of the water that would cause the sea levels to rise. The graphic the original article links to is a very simplistic set of overlays (anything under sea level + “n” meters gets shaded as underwater), I was asking about the amount of water needed to raise the sea level by a certain amount (say 1 meter). For the sake of convienience, let’s say aliens were to come in with an inexhaustable supply of saltwater that exactly matches the average temperature of the oceans right now (temp neither rises or lowers), and the polar ice caps are unaffected. Now, if there were a meter measuring the water the aliens added to the oceans to raise the sea level one meter, what would that meter read? That’s the question I’m asking…

I’m guessing there isn’t an answer – the calculation is likely too complex – because no one has pointed me towards anything (yet).

]]> By: Aloisius http://boingboing.net/2009/09/04/what-the-world-will.html#comment-581459 Aloisius Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-581459 If the oceans rise it seems silly to assume humans won't undertake extreme measures to counteract it like say, flooding death valley and other low lying areas. If the oceans rise it seems silly to assume humans won’t undertake extreme measures to counteract it like say, flooding death valley and other low lying areas.

]]> By: Takuan http://boingboing.net/2009/09/04/what-the-world-will.html#comment-581464 Takuan Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-581464 most crops are grown on flat land. most crops are grown on flat land.

]]> By: Takuan http://boingboing.net/2009/09/04/what-the-world-will.html#comment-581977 Takuan Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-581977 wait, Harper's from Alberta, right? http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/691316 wait, Harper’s from Alberta, right?
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/691316

]]> By: arkizzle / Moderator http://boingboing.net/2009/09/04/what-the-world-will.html#comment-582233 arkizzle / Moderator Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-582233 "<i>4) My original question never mentioned ice, ice caps, melting, or anything else (like absorbancy) - it was simply about how to calculate the amount of water need to raise the ocean levels across the planet, considering the wildly-varying terrain the water covers as it rises.<i>" Timothy, in your effort to remain utterly abstract (eg. not getting into a discussion of the reasons for rising sea levels) I believe you have misread Canuck's input, or discounted it because you think it unhelpful. It certainly sounds like a pertinent component of your question. If you are looking at the factors and algorithms need to correctly model the actual resultant coastline after a general increase in water volume (from whatever source, aliens etc), you will likely need to include the <i>new</i> temperatures at different parts of the ocean (which will change, no matter the temperature of the new water being added; as there will be a different surface area for the sun to warm, etc), to get an accurate model. As Canuck points out, the volume will be different depending on the various oceanic temperatures (which will not stay the same, no matter how much you don't want to entertain that variable), so the new coastline will be too.. by how much is a smarter persons guess^h^h^h^h^h calculation.</i></i> “4) My original question never mentioned ice, ice caps, melting, or anything else (like absorbancy) – it was simply about how to calculate the amount of water need to raise the ocean levels across the planet, considering the wildly-varying terrain the water covers as it rises.”

Timothy, in your effort to remain utterly abstract (eg. not getting into a discussion of the reasons for rising sea levels) I believe you have misread Canuck’s input, or discounted it because you think it unhelpful. It certainly sounds like a pertinent component of your question.

If you are looking at the factors and algorithms need to correctly model the actual resultant coastline after a general increase in water volume (from whatever source, aliens etc), you will likely need to include the new temperatures at different parts of the ocean (which will change, no matter the temperature of the new water being added; as there will be a different surface area for the sun to warm, etc), to get an accurate model.

As Canuck points out, the volume will be different depending on the various oceanic temperatures (which will not stay the same, no matter how much you don’t want to entertain that variable), so the new coastline will be too.. by how much is a smarter persons guess^h^h^h^h^h calculation.

]]> By: Takuan http://boingboing.net/2009/09/04/what-the-world-will.html#comment-581978 Takuan Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-581978 oh. I see http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8231006.stm oh. I see
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8231006.stm

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/09/04/what-the-world-will.html#comment-581468 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-581468 It looks as if their server may have gone underwater... It looks as if their server may have gone underwater…

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