Comments on: Visualizing the decline of empires http://boingboing.net/2009/11/17/visualizing-the-decl.html Brain candy for Happy Mutants Thu, 23 May 2013 05:40:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/11/17/visualizing-the-decl.html#comment-640797 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-640797 The British, French and Spanish still have a couple....not sure about Portugal. The British, French and Spanish still have a couple….not sure about Portugal.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/11/17/visualizing-the-decl.html#comment-640543 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-640543 to fontastique: all former colonial powers retain so-called 'overseas territories', which are in fact former colonies now integrated or assimilated (to a varyig extent) to their master. See eg the French islands in the Carribbean and in the Indian Ocean, the British Falklands or the US-controlled part of Samoa. to fontastique: all former colonial powers retain so-called ‘overseas territories’, which are in fact former colonies now integrated or assimilated (to a varyig extent) to their master. See eg the French islands in the Carribbean and in the Indian Ocean, the British Falklands or the US-controlled part of Samoa.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/11/17/visualizing-the-decl.html#comment-641577 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-641577 Très intéressant. Ce système de visualisation pourrait être utilisé pour représenter les autres grandes nations de cette époque : -Empire russe -Empire ottoman -Empire (Etat) américain Très intéressant. Ce système de visualisation pourrait être utilisé pour représenter les autres grandes nations de cette époque :
-Empire russe
-Empire ottoman
-Empire (Etat) américain

]]> By: acb http://boingboing.net/2009/11/17/visualizing-the-decl.html#comment-640560 acb Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-640560 @16: <i>To my knowledge, those countries do not have any more colonies.</i> Britain still has a handful: the Falklands, Gibraltar, Bermuda, the British Virgin Islands and a few islands in the south Atlantic (Tristan Da Cunha and Saint Helena come to mind). There are several books about them, like <i>The Teatime Islands</i> and <i>The Last Pink Bits</i>. @16: To my knowledge, those countries do not have any more colonies.

Britain still has a handful: the Falklands, Gibraltar, Bermuda, the British Virgin Islands and a few islands in the south Atlantic (Tristan Da Cunha and Saint Helena come to mind). There are several books about them, like The Teatime Islands and The Last Pink Bits.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/11/17/visualizing-the-decl.html#comment-641584 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-641584 Alors là vraiment Haiti qui fut la colonie la plus prospère de la France à l'époque et le deuxième pays à prendre son indépendance sur le continent américain ne figure pas du tout sur ce graphique. Selon moi, cette omission de l'importance du rôle jouer par Haïti dans la décolonisation de l'Amérique est quelque peu dommage. Mais bon... Alors là vraiment Haiti qui fut la colonie la plus prospère de la France à l’époque et le deuxième pays à prendre son indépendance sur le continent américain ne figure pas du tout sur ce graphique. Selon moi, cette omission de l’importance du rôle jouer par Haïti dans la décolonisation de l’Amérique est quelque peu dommage. Mais bon…

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/11/17/visualizing-the-decl.html#comment-641084 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-641084 On the contrary, it's not Palestine, but Israel. Palestine never came to existence as an independant State, because of its invasion by Egypt and Jordan in 1948-49, and by Israel in 1967. On the contrary, it’s not Palestine, but Israel.
Palestine never came to existence as an independant State, because of its invasion by Egypt and Jordan in 1948-49, and by Israel in 1967.

]]> By: tomorrowboy http://boingboing.net/2009/11/17/visualizing-the-decl.html#comment-640840 tomorrowboy Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-640840 Portugal's only overseas possessions now are the Azores and the Madeira islands in the Atlantic. Both of which are autonomous to some extent. Portugal’s only overseas possessions now are the Azores and the Madeira islands in the Atlantic. Both of which are autonomous to some extent.

]]> By: merreborn http://boingboing.net/2009/11/17/visualizing-the-decl.html#comment-640073 merreborn Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-640073 Apparently I know far less about this segment of history than I should. Why do we learn so little about world history 1800-1980 in high school history courses in the US? They go on and on about ancient china, medieval europe, etc., but don't say a damn word about anything that happened in the last 200 years -- unless it directly involved the US. Apparently I know far less about this segment of history than I should.

Why do we learn so little about world history 1800-1980 in high school history courses in the US?

They go on and on about ancient china, medieval europe, etc., but don’t say a damn word about anything that happened in the last 200 years — unless it directly involved the US.

]]> By: the_headless_rabbit http://boingboing.net/2009/11/17/visualizing-the-decl.html#comment-640075 the_headless_rabbit Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-640075 It's not much different in Canada. We learn that the Spanish and Portuguese empires existed, but they are little more than a footnote in the textbook. I never realized that they were each bigger than the Brits at times. It’s not much different in Canada.

We learn that the Spanish and Portuguese empires existed, but they are little more than a footnote in the textbook. I never realized that they were each bigger than the Brits at times.

]]> By: Trent Hawkins http://boingboing.net/2009/11/17/visualizing-the-decl.html#comment-640853 Trent Hawkins Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-640853 aside from lack of other empires (german, russian, chinese, mongolian, japanese, etc.) Canada should have budded off of the British AND the French. aside from lack of other empires (german, russian, chinese, mongolian, japanese, etc.) Canada should have budded off of the British AND the French.

]]> By: twaza http://boingboing.net/2009/11/17/visualizing-the-decl.html#comment-640355 twaza Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-640355 A wonderful visualization. It would be a big mistake to speed up display of the "boring years", as the contrast between stability and change would be totally lost. I did not see the Republic of Ireland fissioning off in 1922. It would be really interesting to compare the growth of the Russian Empire with the growth of the European empires. A wonderful visualization. It would be a big mistake to speed up display of the “boring years”, as the contrast between stability and change would be totally lost.

I did not see the Republic of Ireland fissioning off in 1922.

It would be really interesting to compare the growth of the Russian Empire with the growth of the European empires.

]]> By: linnen http://boingboing.net/2009/11/17/visualizing-the-decl.html#comment-640100 linnen Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-640100 Interesting, but incomplete. By the methodology at the link this does not show the whole story. I am sorry, but where is the US? During the Spanish-American War we absorbed Spanish possessions. Not to mention German and Dutch overseas colonies that were gained and lost from 1900 to 1950. The methodology says the top 4 empires during the 19th and 20th centuries. It looks more like just the top 4 at the *start* of the 19th century, ignoring the rise and fall of everyone else. Interesting, but incomplete. By the methodology at the link this does not show the whole story. I am sorry, but where is the US? During the Spanish-American War we absorbed Spanish possessions. Not to mention German and Dutch overseas colonies that were gained and lost from 1900 to 1950.

The methodology says the top 4 empires during the 19th and 20th centuries. It looks more like just the top 4 at the *start* of the 19th century, ignoring the rise and fall of everyone else.

]]> By: NeilFraser http://boingboing.net/2009/11/17/visualizing-the-decl.html#comment-640356 NeilFraser Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-640356 jimjambandit: The US is a tricky one. Unlike previous empires, America's empire cannot be not measured in surface area conquered. Its empire is more economic, more nebulous. For instance, is Canada part of the American empire? One could argue that both ways. (I'm Canadian) jimjambandit: The US is a tricky one. Unlike previous empires, America’s empire cannot be not measured in surface area conquered. Its empire is more economic, more nebulous. For instance, is Canada part of the American empire? One could argue that both ways. (I’m Canadian)

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/11/17/visualizing-the-decl.html#comment-642406 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-642406 As said, some independancies are missing. As said by another, if is showed the protugese empire, it is necessary to show the Nederland's empire. The synthesis is nice but limited. The story began before 1800 (no mention of the concession by Napoleon of the North America to the thirteen United States), almost with the concession of India by the french to the english, then with the anglofrench war in America and his consequency, the America's Independance. We don't see how english and french empire grow while turkish empire decline. We don't see "the" empire, Austria but the exercice is limited to maritime empires. We well see the consequency of the second war. As said, some independancies are missing. As said by another, if is showed the protugese empire, it is necessary to show the Nederland’s empire.

The synthesis is nice but limited. The story began before 1800 (no mention of the concession by Napoleon of the North America to the thirteen United States), almost with the concession of India by the french to the english, then with the anglofrench war in America and his consequency, the America’s Independance. We don’t see how english and french empire grow while turkish empire decline. We don’t see “the” empire, Austria but the exercice is limited to maritime empires.

We well see the consequency of the second war.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/11/17/visualizing-the-decl.html#comment-640103 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-640103 Here's my question: what political, social, economic, and/or technological changes led to the rapid decline of the four main empires in the early 1960s? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Here’s my question: what political, social, economic, and/or technological changes led to the rapid decline of the four main empires in the early 1960s?

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/11/17/visualizing-the-decl.html#comment-640366 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-640366 @Linnen: It's not incomplete according to the author's own description. The animation looks at 'maritime' empires. The US was still almost entirely a continental nation, along with Russia and China. The British empire, by comparison, was one middling-size island in control of a heap of overseas territories. Very different emphasis. @Linnen: It’s not incomplete according to the author’s own description. The animation looks at ‘maritime’ empires. The US was still almost entirely a continental nation, along with Russia and China. The British empire, by comparison, was one middling-size island in control of a heap of overseas territories. Very different emphasis.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/11/17/visualizing-the-decl.html#comment-640881 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-640881 I wonder about the methodology... Australia detaches from Britain around 1940. Is this because of the Statute of Westminster 1942 or because or Curtin's look to America speech? The split occurred in 1939 but the Australia bubble stabilises a year or two after? Even with those, Australia remained closely allied with Britain well after (fighting for example in Malaysia)... and I'm not so sure why 1901 Federation wasn't chosen. I wonder about the methodology… Australia detaches from Britain around 1940. Is this because of the Statute of Westminster 1942 or because or Curtin’s look to America speech? The split occurred in 1939 but the Australia bubble stabilises a year or two after? Even with those, Australia remained closely allied with Britain well after (fighting for example in Malaysia)… and I’m not so sure why 1901 Federation wasn’t chosen.

]]> By: Dean Putney http://boingboing.net/2009/11/17/visualizing-the-decl.html#comment-640123 Dean Putney Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-640123 As great as the visualization is, I wonder if it might be better with a soundtrack. As great as the visualization is, I wonder if it might be better with a soundtrack.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/11/17/visualizing-the-decl.html#comment-640382 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-640382 Eh....What about Ireland? We faught for and gained independence from the British Empire between 1916-1921. Am really surprised this has been left out. Eh….What about Ireland? We faught for and gained independence from the British Empire between 1916-1921. Am really surprised this has been left out.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/11/17/visualizing-the-decl.html#comment-640404 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-640404 Nice way of visualising the data but I couldn't help but notice a distinct lack of Irish independence in there. We gained independence from the British empire too you know!!! Nice way of visualising the data but I couldn’t help but notice a distinct lack of Irish independence in there. We gained independence from the British empire too you know!!!

]]> By: jetfx http://boingboing.net/2009/11/17/visualizing-the-decl.html#comment-640151 jetfx Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-640151 A number of his dates are off. He states that the dominions are considered part of an empire, so you see Canada and Australia leaving Britain in the 1930s, but he has Cuba's independence in the 1860s, even though formal independence would not be until 1902. Spain however did grant Cuba more autonomy during the last 40 years of rule, much like Britain did for its dominions. There is some slight incongruity to declare that one does not want to sound pretentious by calling this 'data visualization' and then refer to the product as having 'ludic' qualities. A number of his dates are off. He states that the dominions are considered part of an empire, so you see Canada and Australia leaving Britain in the 1930s, but he has Cuba’s independence in the 1860s, even though formal independence would not be until 1902. Spain however did grant Cuba more autonomy during the last 40 years of rule, much like Britain did for its dominions.

There is some slight incongruity to declare that one does not want to sound pretentious by calling this ‘data visualization’ and then refer to the product as having ‘ludic’ qualities.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/11/17/visualizing-the-decl.html#comment-640158 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-640158 linnen, a pure eye candy representation like that would never be complete. There are a lot of huge nations/empires that grew and shrinked along this time but are not represented. For what its intentions were, it's pretty damn cool and well done. linnen, a pure eye candy representation like that would never be complete. There are a lot of huge nations/empires that grew and shrinked along this time but are not represented.
For what its intentions were, it’s pretty damn cool and well done.

]]> By: David Carroll http://boingboing.net/2009/11/17/visualizing-the-decl.html#comment-640415 David Carroll Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-640415 Niel: I like to think that Canada has facilitative symbiotic relationship with the US. The last time America tried to actually conquer Canada, we won and burned down the White House! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812#Overview But I digress. Visually this post is beautiful in its simplicity, and is a fun way to illustrate dry facts. The author is clearly into graphic arts more than history. For those of you who wished it included other empires, or dispute certain dates: Make your own! I overheard this quote referring to criticism of a municipal design plan yesterday: "If you put five architects in a room you will get seven opinions." IMHO this can apply to graphic artists and historians too! Niel: I like to think that Canada has facilitative symbiotic relationship with the US. The last time America tried to actually conquer Canada, we won and burned down the White House! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812#Overview

But I digress. Visually this post is beautiful in its simplicity, and is a fun way to illustrate dry facts. The author is clearly into graphic arts more than history. For those of you who wished it included other empires, or dispute certain dates: Make your own!

I overheard this quote referring to criticism of a municipal design plan yesterday: “If you put five architects in a room you will get seven opinions.” IMHO this can apply to graphic artists and historians too!

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/11/17/visualizing-the-decl.html#comment-640927 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-640927 la bulle fini toujours par exploser!! lol!!!restons modestes , sereins, humbles et chacun son tour!!! lol!!! la bulle fini toujours par exploser!! lol!!!restons modestes , sereins, humbles et chacun son tour!!! lol!!!

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/11/17/visualizing-the-decl.html#comment-640687 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-640687 It's not Israel but Palestine !!! It’s not Israel but Palestine !!!

]]> By: VagabondAstronomer http://boingboing.net/2009/11/17/visualizing-the-decl.html#comment-640434 VagabondAstronomer Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-640434 The absence of the Dutch empire bothers me. From the late 16th century to the mid 20th, the Dutch had settlements spreading from the Caribbean to the western edge of the Pacific, and did not finally lose the remaining larger ones until World War II and some time after. But, yeah, pretty neat. The absence of the Dutch empire bothers me. From the late 16th century to the mid 20th, the Dutch had settlements spreading from the Caribbean to the western edge of the Pacific, and did not finally lose the remaining larger ones until World War II and some time after.
But, yeah, pretty neat.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/11/17/visualizing-the-decl.html#comment-642994 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-642994 The story of the European colonial empires does not begin with the French giving their first Asian-American empire to the British (btw this is not reflected there, France possessed Louisiana up to 1803). It dates even before the West European discovery of Americas. The first Portuguese colony (i.e. non European) was conquered in 1415, in Northern Africa. First Spanish, in 1491. This is apparent in the first images of the synthesis, in 1800, when Portuguese and Spanish empires are much bigger than the French. The story of the European colonial empires does not begin with the French giving their first Asian-American empire to the British (btw this is not reflected there, France possessed Louisiana up to 1803). It dates even before the West European discovery of Americas. The first Portuguese colony (i.e. non European) was conquered in 1415, in Northern Africa. First Spanish, in 1491.
This is apparent in the first images of the synthesis, in 1800, when Portuguese and Spanish empires are much bigger than the French.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/11/17/visualizing-the-decl.html#comment-641208 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-641208 vraiment bien fait , le côté organique est bien saisi ! d'accord sur le fait que seraient pas mal aussi : les autres empires maritimes ( allemagne, hollande, japon, ...) et.... une sorte d animation pour les "zones d'influence" ( en chine ou en thailande par exemple) ? mais je dis bravo ! vraiment bien fait , le côté organique est bien saisi ! d’accord sur le fait que seraient pas mal aussi : les autres empires maritimes ( allemagne, hollande, japon, …) et…. une sorte d animation pour les “zones d’influence” ( en chine ou en thailande par exemple) ? mais je dis bravo !

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/11/17/visualizing-the-decl.html#comment-641477 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-641477 Yes, this matches quite well with model projected by the Prime Radiant thousands of years ago. Yes, this matches quite well with model projected by the Prime Radiant thousands of years ago.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/11/17/visualizing-the-decl.html#comment-640713 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-640713 It could and should be a very long answer. In stupidly short, let me say this (on the basis that we're talking of the explosion of the British and French empires in the 1960's not the Spanish which had already vanished): the two world wars weakened the two European metropolises on their soil and, more important, demonstrated to their colonies that they were weak. Hence, from 1945, every colony knew that its former conqueror was, in fact, fallible. The United Nations Organization developed gradually an emphasis on self-determination of peoples; this stance against colonialism was supported by the only great powers of the post-war period, US, as a former colony, and USSR, as a supporter of communist revolutions in colonies. India, independent in 1948 but already with a seat in the League of nations pre-war, was a role model for the would-be independent. In 1956, a colonial plan by Britain and France (and Israel) in Egypt to capture the Suez channel was prevented by USSR and US, and made the two European nations understand the time of military adventures was over for them. It could and should be a very long answer. In stupidly short, let me say this (on the basis that we’re talking of the explosion of the British and French empires in the 1960′s not the Spanish which had already vanished): the two world wars weakened the two European metropolises on their soil and, more important, demonstrated to their colonies that they were weak. Hence, from 1945, every colony knew that its former conqueror was, in fact, fallible. The United Nations Organization developed gradually an emphasis on self-determination of peoples; this stance against colonialism was supported by the only great powers of the post-war period, US, as a former colony, and USSR, as a supporter of communist revolutions in colonies. India, independent in 1948 but already with a seat in the League of nations pre-war, was a role model for the would-be independent. In 1956, a colonial plan by Britain and France (and Israel) in Egypt to capture the Suez channel was prevented by USSR and US, and made the two European nations understand the time of military adventures was over for them.

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