Anyway, bit of a coincidence that someone from RI would post basically a duplicate of my post. Hours after mine (loser:), but still, it’s chillin ;P
HASD
Reality is way stranger than fiction.

And if someone *has* been trained in resisting torture, they’ll spread a number of falsehoods in with whatever they say so the interrogator will have to chase down dangerous false leads, giving whatever target the torture was intended for a chance to escape.

In the case of the much vaunted “ticking time bomb” scenario, let’s say the terrorist knows where the bomb is, pretends to crack, then sends the police to the exact opposite end of town. Good work, eh? The resources that might have been sent to defuse the bomb elsewhere are now neutralized.

Occasionally, though, someone will release some true information under torture, but what torture also does is give the victim enough hatred for the interrogator to cling onto whatever other information they can and never trust the interrogator again.

In short, torture is an unreliable tool used by idiots to make themselves feel macho. Which is why Bush used it.

Mohammad (peace to his name) is said to have cut the sleeve from his garment to avoid disturbing a sleeping cat, but he did not care for dogs, and commanded his followers to regard them only as work animals, never as pets or companions. They are filthy beasts, after all.

Many of the psychological tortures inflicted at Abu Ghraib by the US are invisible to the unschooled American mind; the torturers worked at learning how to permanently degrade their victims in ways that mere physical abuse could never accomplish.

It was never about gathering information. It was always about gratifying certain peoples’ need to increase the sum total of human suffering and pain in the world. That was and is the goal of the people who created the system that resulted in Bagram and Abu Ghraib; these people devoutly believe in the biblical definitions of Good and Evil, and ardently wish to personify the latter. The devil always quotes scripture.

We know how vulnerable the average person is to manipulation, propaganda, advertising, hypnotism… are we just an Alien Xbox? It would explain why we’re so preoccupied with sports, warfare and rock band. I’m sure someone wise has mentioned that things aren’t at all as they appear.

Or maybe some treat us like toys and others like lab rats and still others like Kindergarten students. I prefer being the latter, the wonders never cease.

Your position seems to be “they’d hate us no matter what, because we’re so awesome and they’re jealous.” Mine is more along the lines of “they admire us for what we do right and despise us for what we do wrong.”

No. You cannot defeat evil by becoming evil. This is a war that is much more about ideology than about who fights dirtier. If you want to defeat an ideology, you don’t kick it in the junk. Using violence doesn’t make you right. That’s part of the insidious wickedness in the terrorist mindset to begin with. If you want to defeat an ideology you engineer social change. You don’t do that with bullets and waterboards and flying airplanes into buildings. You do it with economics, engineering, diplomatic ties, infrastructure, indoor plumbing, internet access, roads, airports, a “serve and protect” style police force, national solidarity, festivals, organized religion (yes), and more sociology, psychology, and anthropology than gunpowder and metal. You do it by understanding that terrorism is an act of desperation, that suicide attacks are a symptom of hopelessness, and that torture is violent paranoia. You comprehend zeitgeists and memes, social networks and economic consequences, vengeance cycles and the roots of fundamentalism. This is what Chris Nolan’s Batman teaches us: A concept is much more potent than a person.

@ mahone dunbar: “…In historic context, to equate water-boarding and the treatment of the GITMO prisoners with classic torture is disingenuous, to say the least, particularly when the criticism of America comes from Mr. Valle, a Frenchman;…”

The idea that the only valid criticism can come from the unblemished is a pernicious little falsehood that needs to be stomped out. This isn’t a continuum. This is a binary: ARE YOU DOING SOMETHING BAD? YES/NO. IF YES, THEN STOP IT.

I’m pretty sure you’re also pretty sure of whatever you also pull out of your hat.

Further… even if true, to assume further that they “had no stake” because they were drafted is also drafty.

Assume what is convenient for you, but why share it?

… oh,thought you said Palin… Pain… ok… never mind…

Besides that, no, the IP issue, while still contentious, doesn’t get the play it used to at the forum, though it usually flares up whenever activity in the region does. And Hugh has basically been hounded out, though he occasionally makes a cameo. Come on back sometime and call the rest of the posters there losers, too. You’re makin’ me feel all special.

I can scarcely imagine having a career aussi intéressant que la votre. Your interpretation of the ufo phenomena in relation to folklore is an inspiration. I have read Magonia, the trilogy, and recently the old ‘UFOs from Space’ and have followed your career somewhat. You’ve managed to be consistently associated with some very advanced research, sometimes I wonder if you aren’t an ambassador from an advanced civilization, but I am a functional crazy so don’t be too flattered.

Now that I’m past my kneejerk reaction, I’m considering the possibility that you’re more interested in the replies that your post might generate than the flawed logic. Dr. Vallée opens with a troll post hehe, who would have thought!

Do you know what I find more bizarre than the Dr.X phenomenon and Ingo Swann’s encounters with Mr.Axelrod combined? The mere fact that we exist. There aren’t words to describe how amazing and unlikely it is. Amazing because of the process from the supposed big bang start until now and the ongoing requirements, unlikely because it’s supposed to be random.

More credible to me is that we are part of an information system created by a super-intelligence. Literally a simulation in a computer, WE could be artificially intelligent avatars . Or maybe forms of consciousness playing with the avatars. The possibilities are unlimited, we know so little. I don’t rule out God, just fearful or silly interpretations of God. Talk about mind control, there’s been an ongoing stream of it from Italy since ancient times.

I feel like I’ve already taken too much of your time, but if you could recommend book or an author to me, I’d be very grateful. And my last post was maybe a bit raw for Boing Boing, I don’t mind if it doesn’t get published.

Best Wishes!

damn right, i doubt anyone could imagine the bloodshed that would have followed if we had attacked the nazis instead of solving our differences through diplomatic channels.

So if you’re high on the horse and trying to say that waterboarding isn’t torture, hold out your hand, make a fist and punch yourself as hard as possible.

So we each have our general positions, even if they each could probably use a bit more defining. But as a very vague proposition, I think my view is a better description of reality, at least for some of the more articulate and fashionable parts of the European population. I don’t think the social trend setters base their preferences in international relations on human rights. Instead, if I may simplify and exaggerate a little, they base their views on other factors — such as, who is the plucky underdog? — and only later come to human rights as a talking point, whichever side it comes down on.

As I recall, a lot of rhetoric in the cold war considered the USSR and the USA as either moral equivalents, or else gave less credit to the USA. Israel was popular among lefties, until Israel started to beat the Arabs. Gradually, the Palestinians became cast as hero-victims, and the Israelis as villains. I’ve already mentioned the romanticization of the Cuban revolution.

Also, Jesse Ventura was a Navy Seal who had the waterboarding training. He calls it torture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=071dlJmfQA0

And 64, the MK survivor ladies will NEVER get recognition. Stop tilting at windmills. Who is going to admit to those heinous crimes when they can just let it drop down the memory hole. Physical trauma based programs using children as subjects? Sex camp for 9 year olds to be deployed in blackmail operations? Nobody wants to believe ANYONE is capable of that level of sickness, let alone secret parts of their own government.

All the survivors have is their word and there’s always Elizabeth Loftus, the FMS cult, and the Ministry of Truth to add further doubt as to the veracity of any claims they may have. I find it a bit of a stretch to imply that a brief comment about LSD works against their cause.

The MK-type stuff is the only thing I can think of that has a level of disinformation comparable to that which permeates the ufo topic. I think you go too far by presuming that a comment about LSD makes Dr.Vallee an expert the in history of US black programs,like the internet detectives at RI.

I doubt he’s aware of the survivors that are now in their 50′s and 60′s or what they went through. It’s a dark twisted subject, not too many want people want to traumatize their minds by considering such a depressing subject with it’s huge noise to signal ratio.

Your snide comment about how this post will somehow adversely affect them, is just typical RI pessimism. That forum is a cesspool of negativity and paranoia. Here we have an acclaimed intellectual who can post about any topic that he wishes. One of the topics chooses draws attention to the black programs of the 60′s and 70′s. Is it just possible that this could pique someone’s interest in the topic, that they might learn more.

I’m guessing the “we torture therefore we have no truth drugs” assertion is just trolling. I don’t know what he’s thinking. But one thing that is certain is a PhD in Computer Science would spot a glaring logic error like that in about 2 seconds.

A primary difficulty is that the logic of his conclusion does not seem to follow, that is:

“Our henchmen use waterboarding = there is no truth serum”

There’s no more reason to believe that U.S. torture would stop if there was a “truth serum” in existence than there is to think that because we torture there is no truth serum. The one simply doesn’t follow the other, Torture has nothing to do with obtaining actionable intelligence. It is a technique of power, of propaganda, and of brain washing, or mind control, via extreme abuse.

Which leads us to another problem with the blog post. Mr. Vallee’s conclusion tends to validate the concept of incompetence and failure with regard to MKULTRA and the U.S. government’s successive and possibly ongoing mind control programs. The survivors of these programs have a difficult time being recognised as victims, despite government admission and congressional testimony. It’s too bad that Mr. Vallee’s opinion here looks like it will contribute another specious talking point for the skeptics, and further degrade a more general pubic’s ability to come to terms with the survivor’s reports.

It seems out of character for Mr. Vallee to take the U.S. intelligence agencies at their word for much of anything, much less on the use or efficacy of their psychoactive medications, or their motivations for torture. In as much as his research in the paranormal has been an inspiration for many years, it is hoped that he can attain his previous high standards in his successive blog posts here as well.

Or maybe your sarcasm is recursive…

Once you start waterboarding, you *are* one of the terrorists.

Back in 2002-2003, when Cheney was talking about “the dark side”, the Bush Administration wanted evidence tying Saddam Hussein to al Queda. Many of them really believed that it was there, so they could tell themselves that they were trying to get to the truth, but they wanted the prisoners to confess that it was so, that Saddam was connected, so they could go after them. If they had a working truth serum, they wouldn’t like or believe what they would hear. Hence, torture.