Comments on: How police departs use asset forfeiture laws to steal money from poor people http://boingboing.net/2009/12/04/how-police-departs-u.html Brain candy for Happy Mutants Thu, 23 May 2013 13:54:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: mgfarrelly http://boingboing.net/2009/12/04/how-police-departs-u.html#comment-656151 mgfarrelly Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-656151 I love how the government supports asset forfeiture. It's a bit like a thief being in favor of unlocked doors. I live in a city where cops and public servants from the "Department of Revenue" scour low income neighborhoods in the dead of night looking for any and every possible automobile infraction. I lived in such an area and received tickets for such infractions as "Cracked tail-light structure" (it wasn't cracked) and "expired city sticker" (a week before it expired). It's commonplace to shake-down these neighborhoods because the people either pay up front out of fear, or don't pay and end up with a "boot" on their car which leads to a tow 48 hours later which can run you upwards of a grand. Are the streets safer? Is it any easier to navigate the city? Are the roads more accessible to all? Nope. I love how the government supports asset forfeiture. It’s a bit like a thief being in favor of unlocked doors.

I live in a city where cops and public servants from the “Department of Revenue” scour low income neighborhoods in the dead of night looking for any and every possible automobile infraction. I lived in such an area and received tickets for such infractions as “Cracked tail-light structure” (it wasn’t cracked) and “expired city sticker” (a week before it expired). It’s commonplace to shake-down these neighborhoods because the people either pay up front out of fear, or don’t pay and end up with a “boot” on their car which leads to a tow 48 hours later which can run you upwards of a grand.

Are the streets safer? Is it any easier to navigate the city? Are the roads more accessible to all? Nope.

]]> By: jaytkay http://boingboing.net/2009/12/04/how-police-departs-u.html#comment-656156 jaytkay Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-656156 This is kind of shocking to learn, but "innocent until proven guilty" in the US means they can't legally imprison you without a conviction. But they can take your property. I know some attorneys who work forfeiture cases, and they laughed while I tried to grock that. "Yeah, that surprises everybody." This is kind of shocking to learn, but “innocent until proven guilty” in the US means they can’t legally imprison you without a conviction. But they can take your property.

I know some attorneys who work forfeiture cases, and they laughed while I tried to grock that. “Yeah, that surprises everybody.”

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/12/04/how-police-departs-u.html#comment-986653 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-986653 I had my money taken by the police who said I had drugs. I didnt and had the charges dropped but still never got my money or car back, Yes I did file a bond to go to court about the car and money but never got a date to go to court and the city attorney wont tell me why. I feel very angry that I lost my car and money and $2,000 in bond money and was never even given a chance. I thought when all charges were dismissed I would get the $ back . Too late for the car the impound, storage fee is 6,000. I had my money taken by the police who said I had drugs. I didnt and had the charges dropped but still never got my money or car back, Yes I did file a bond to go to court about the car and money but never got a date to go to court and the city attorney wont tell me why. I feel very angry that I lost my car and money and $2,000 in bond money and was never even given a chance. I thought when all charges were dismissed I would get the $ back . Too late for the car the impound, storage fee is 6,000.

]]> By: nutbastard http://boingboing.net/2009/12/04/how-police-departs-u.html#comment-656169 nutbastard Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-656169 i feel for the victims of this kind of theft. i had a traffic ticket that i had to put up $500 for. i wont get into details but it was NOT a moving violation. so i put up the money and demand a court date. 3 weeks later i go to court. no cop. note from cop saying he couldn't make it. judge asks if i object to a continuance. i do. my objection is noted but overruled. 2 weeks later i go back to court. no cop again. case dismissed. yay. they say i'll get my money back in 4-6 weeks. 11 weeks later it shows up in the mail. in the end i was out $500 for 16 weeks, and lost 4 hours of paid time off, plus another couple hours of my free time. why i have to submit 'bail' for a non moving violation infraction is beyond me. why they don't give me back MY money the same day the case is dismissed is also beyond me. i imagine they make a tidy sum off the interest of all the bail they hold in the mean time. assholes, the whole lot of them. i feel for the victims of this kind of theft.

i had a traffic ticket that i had to put up $500 for. i wont get into details but it was NOT a moving violation.

so i put up the money and demand a court date.

3 weeks later i go to court. no cop. note from cop saying he couldn’t make it. judge asks if i object to a continuance. i do. my objection is noted but overruled.

2 weeks later i go back to court. no cop again. case dismissed. yay. they say i’ll get my money back in 4-6 weeks.

11 weeks later it shows up in the mail.

in the end i was out $500 for 16 weeks, and lost 4 hours of paid time off, plus another couple hours of my free time.

why i have to submit ‘bail’ for a non moving violation infraction is beyond me. why they don’t give me back MY money the same day the case is dismissed is also beyond me. i imagine they make a tidy sum off the interest of all the bail they hold in the mean time.

assholes, the whole lot of them.

]]> By: cstatman http://boingboing.net/2009/12/04/how-police-departs-u.html#comment-656434 cstatman Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-656434 yet one more reason to avoid Detroit. yet one more reason to avoid Detroit.

]]> By: Robbo http://boingboing.net/2009/12/04/how-police-departs-u.html#comment-656181 Robbo Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-656181 I'd like to think the recent shenanigans of the Justice Department, echoing and reinforcing Bush era dogma, is a result of the "sleepers" left behind by the previous administration - continuing to dole out federal legal responses that contradict what the Big O would do. make enough noise and maybe these louts will get kicked down the stairs and into the streets where they belong. If I'm wrong then the current administration is just as much of wretched hive of scum and villainy as the previous douchebags who haunted those halls. I’d like to think the recent shenanigans of the Justice Department, echoing and reinforcing Bush era dogma, is a result of the “sleepers” left behind by the previous administration – continuing to dole out federal legal responses that contradict what the Big O would do. make enough noise and maybe these louts will get kicked down the stairs and into the streets where they belong. If I’m wrong then the current administration is just as much of wretched hive of scum and villainy as the previous douchebags who haunted those halls.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/12/04/how-police-departs-u.html#comment-656190 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-656190 It's only "asset" forfeiture when it happens to rich people. It’s only “asset” forfeiture when it happens to rich people.

]]> By: KPS666 http://boingboing.net/2009/12/04/how-police-departs-u.html#comment-656446 KPS666 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-656446 It's worth mentioning that jaytkay's comment is only the tip of the iceberg. The Bill of Rights itself and Constitutional protections, in general, apply ONLY to criminal cases and not civil ones. Asset forfeiture is only one of a wide variety of assaults on citizens and their property that are completely legal in civil proceedings. At very least let's not forget that if you are sued in civil court you have no right to a court-appointed attorney so poor people can have their lives destroyed simply because they lack the ability to obtain representation. While loss of your freedom in a criminal case is serious business, the loss of everything else in a civil matter runs a pretty damned close second. It’s worth mentioning that jaytkay’s comment is only the tip of the iceberg. The Bill of Rights itself and Constitutional protections, in general, apply ONLY to criminal cases and not civil ones. Asset forfeiture is only one of a wide variety of assaults on citizens and their property that are completely legal in civil proceedings. At very least let’s not forget that if you are sued in civil court you have no right to a court-appointed attorney so poor people can have their lives destroyed simply because they lack the ability to obtain representation. While loss of your freedom in a criminal case is serious business, the loss of everything else in a civil matter runs a pretty damned close second.

]]> By: nutjob http://boingboing.net/2009/12/04/how-police-departs-u.html#comment-656705 nutjob Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-656705 Would it have killed you to spell out "departments" in the headline? I must've re-read it a dozen times before I realized "departs" wasn't a verb, but an abbreviation. Yeah, I'm slow sometimes. Would it have killed you to spell out “departments” in the headline?

I must’ve re-read it a dozen times before I realized “departs” wasn’t a verb, but an abbreviation. Yeah, I’m slow sometimes.

]]> By: Jewels Vern http://boingboing.net/2009/12/04/how-police-departs-u.html#comment-656203 Jewels Vern Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-656203 It wouldn't take much to support a charge of racketeering. It wouldn’t take much to support a charge of racketeering.

]]> By: SKR http://boingboing.net/2009/12/04/how-police-departs-u.html#comment-656206 SKR Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-656206 It's the same as it ever was. It’s the same as it ever was.

]]> By: joeposts http://boingboing.net/2009/12/04/how-police-departs-u.html#comment-656463 joeposts Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-656463 "Here in Toronto, the cops regularly go on 'safety' blitzes." And they searched 6,000 random houses and apartments looking for evidence in a missing persons case. People who exercised their right to deny police entry without a warrant were warned they'd be put under surveillance and maybe subject to a search warrant. http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/mariam/article/723531--6-000-homes-canvassed-for-mariam-clues "Hi there, just want to take a look in your kitchen to make sure you haven't been committing any crimes, Mmmkay?" “Here in Toronto, the cops regularly go on ‘safety’ blitzes.”

And they searched 6,000 random houses and apartments looking for evidence in a missing persons case. People who exercised their right to deny police entry without a warrant were warned they’d be put under surveillance and maybe subject to a search warrant.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/mariam/article/723531–6-000-homes-canvassed-for-mariam-clues

“Hi there, just want to take a look in your kitchen to make sure you haven’t been committing any crimes, Mmmkay?”

]]> By: doublethink http://boingboing.net/2009/12/04/how-police-departs-u.html#comment-656212 doublethink Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-656212 A similiar thing happened to me, albeit not to the tune of 14 hundred dollars. I was pulled over for a seatbelt violation, and after much waiting in the car the officer informed me my car was flagged as stolen and I would have to be arrested, and the car towed. It was all very amiable and it amounted to a DMV error, but I had to pay over 300 bucks in impound/towing fees. A similiar thing happened to me, albeit not to the tune of 14 hundred dollars. I was pulled over for a seatbelt violation, and after much waiting in the car the officer informed me my car was flagged as stolen and I would have to be arrested, and the car towed. It was all very amiable and it amounted to a DMV error, but I had to pay over 300 bucks in impound/towing fees.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/12/04/how-police-departs-u.html#comment-656984 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-656984 I assume that this is common knowledge, but just in case it is not, please recall that the current state of our asset forfeiture law exists because of the drug war. The original rational that led the Supreme Court to allow this (in my opinion) blatantly unconstitutional sort of behavior was that drug dealers represented too great of a threat to society to rely on due process. Just remember this when you are tallying the pros and cons of drug prohibition. I assume that this is common knowledge, but just in case it is not, please recall that the current state of our asset forfeiture law exists because of the drug war. The original rational that led the Supreme Court to allow this (in my opinion) blatantly unconstitutional sort of behavior was that drug dealers represented too great of a threat to society to rely on due process. Just remember this when you are tallying the pros and cons of drug prohibition.

]]> By: george57l http://boingboing.net/2009/12/04/how-police-departs-u.html#comment-657250 george57l Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-657250 Yeah - what nutjob said. It took me a second or three to figure out it wasn't 'departs' as in 'leaves' or 'goes away'. 'Depts.' would have done it, too. First time I ever saw 'departs' used as a shortened form of departments. Yeah – what nutjob said. It took me a second or three to figure out it wasn’t ‘departs’ as in ‘leaves’ or ‘goes away’.

‘Depts.’ would have done it, too. First time I ever saw ‘departs’ used as a shortened form of departments.

]]> By: Dan Mac http://boingboing.net/2009/12/04/how-police-departs-u.html#comment-656486 Dan Mac Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-656486 The story of Donald P. Scott of Los Angeles is one of the most egregious in the annals of forfeiture. The Police and the Parks Service plotted to get his property, and in their action, shot him dead. Sorry, it's a wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_P._Scott Also fear.org (Forfeiture Endangers American Rights) runs their website on forfeiture, with victim stories,statistics, and a is a gathering point for resources. The Sheriff of Nottingham lives! The story of Donald P. Scott of Los Angeles is one of the most egregious in the annals of forfeiture. The Police and the Parks Service plotted to get his property, and in their action, shot him dead.
Sorry, it’s a wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_P._Scott

Also fear.org (Forfeiture Endangers American Rights) runs their website on forfeiture, with victim stories,statistics, and a is a gathering point for resources.

The Sheriff of Nottingham lives!

]]> By: J France http://boingboing.net/2009/12/04/how-police-departs-u.html#comment-656266 J France Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-656266 Trends like this are incredibly worrysome for law enforcement. When you "incentivize" officers and departments with performance based quotas and make them "more responsible" for their own funding streams.... These are the results. For a while now larger police departments have been less about serving their community, and more their own needs - such as producing skewed evidence for tougher laws to allow broader (lazier) policing. Consorting laws are a good example of this, and specifyinv key groups they are to apply to. Of course it often falls to the individual patrol / officer, but common sense is being beaten out of recruits in favour of towing the line. People who show independant thought are targeted and eradicated from the recruiting process. Clearly not wanted. Trends like this are incredibly worrysome for law enforcement. When you “incentivize” officers and departments with performance based quotas and make them “more responsible” for their own funding streams…. These are the results.

For a while now larger police departments have been less about serving their community, and more their own needs – such as producing skewed evidence for tougher laws to allow broader (lazier) policing. Consorting laws are a good example of this, and specifyinv key groups they are to apply to.

Of course it often falls to the individual patrol / officer, but common sense is being beaten out of recruits in favour of towing the line. People who show independant thought are targeted and eradicated from the recruiting process. Clearly not wanted.

]]> By: jeligula http://boingboing.net/2009/12/04/how-police-departs-u.html#comment-656268 jeligula Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-656268 "This is kind of shocking to learn, but "innocent until proven guilty" in the US means they can't legally imprison you without a conviction. No, but they can still throw you in jail for no reason whatsoever. This happened to me, and my boss posted bail. She talked to the DA, the DA tracked down the paperwork, read it, and promptly tore it up and threw it away. I was free to go, because I didn't do anything. The bail was already posted, though, so they didn't give it back and I had to pay my boss back. For doing absolutely nothing. When it comes to forfeiture and fees, there is absolutely no justice whatsoever and it doesn't surprise me that they are taking in more and more. “This is kind of shocking to learn, but “innocent until proven guilty” in the US means they can’t legally imprison you without a conviction.

No, but they can still throw you in jail for no reason whatsoever. This happened to me, and my boss posted bail. She talked to the DA, the DA tracked down the paperwork, read it, and promptly tore it up and threw it away. I was free to go, because I didn’t do anything. The bail was already posted, though, so they didn’t give it back and I had to pay my boss back. For doing absolutely nothing. When it comes to forfeiture and fees, there is absolutely no justice whatsoever and it doesn’t surprise me that they are taking in more and more.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/12/04/how-police-departs-u.html#comment-656283 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-656283 No kidding. Police towing policy is particularly harsh against homeless people. People who live in vehicles in San Francisco are targeted for towing if they don't move and re-park every few days, and sometimes even if they do. It breaks up groups of people who would otherwise be able to hang together for safety, and it deprives people of *all* their assets when there's a tow and the owner can't pay the corruptly high fees to recover it. Poor people's property rights deserve more attention. Including from conservatives. Maybe especially from conservatives. No kidding. Police towing policy is particularly harsh against homeless people. People who live in vehicles in San Francisco are targeted for towing if they don’t move and re-park every few days, and sometimes even if they do. It breaks up groups of people who would otherwise be able to hang together for safety, and it deprives people of *all* their assets when there’s a tow and the owner can’t pay the corruptly high fees to recover it.

Poor people’s property rights deserve more attention. Including from conservatives. Maybe especially from conservatives.

]]> By: johnlancia http://boingboing.net/2009/12/04/how-police-departs-u.html#comment-656284 johnlancia Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-656284 Taxation without representation. For the new millennium that is. The weasels that we have in office are only concerned with staying in office. Not creating a better society. Thus, they are loathe to raise or create new taxes. But they have to pay for the ever increasing cost of doing government business (pay-raise's, office renovations, their moats, at least in Britain, etc etc...), so they are left with the only option available to them. Start writing tickets for everything. Here in Toronto, the cops regularly go on 'safety' blitzes. Which is their way to saying that anyone doing 5 kph or more is going to get ass raped. They pull over ten or fifteen cars at a time and have a team of cops working on it. Which only makes sense, crime rates have been dropping steadily for decades now. So there isn't really that much for the cops to do besides raise money for the city and province. Its as though they keep hiring more cops just so they can write more tickets and fighting crime doesn't even come into the equation. It must be really frustrating for cops nowadays, they go into it all bright eyed and bushy-tailed. Thinking that they are going to be making a difference and taking down bad guys like Crokett and Tubbs. Then they wind up spending most of their time writing tickets, doing paper work and showing up to court to make sure those tickets generate money. Meanwhile, real criminals are two blocks away selling drugs in Dundas square with no one around to stop them. It goes a long way towards explaining why they get so fucked up about the least little thing and tasing ten year old girls. Or beating up old ladies because they talk back too much. Taxation without representation. For the new millennium that is. The weasels that we have in office are only concerned with staying in office. Not creating a better society. Thus, they are loathe to raise or create new taxes. But they have to pay for the ever increasing cost of doing government business (pay-raise’s, office renovations, their moats, at least in Britain, etc etc…), so they are left with the only option available to them. Start writing tickets for everything. Here in Toronto, the cops regularly go on ‘safety’ blitzes. Which is their way to saying that anyone doing 5 kph or more is going to get ass raped. They pull over ten or fifteen cars at a time and have a team of cops working on it. Which only makes sense, crime rates have been dropping steadily for decades now. So there isn’t really that much for the cops to do besides raise money for the city and province. Its as though they keep hiring more cops just so they can write more tickets and fighting crime doesn’t even come into the equation.
It must be really frustrating for cops nowadays, they go into it all bright eyed and bushy-tailed. Thinking that they are going to be making a difference and taking down bad guys like Crokett and Tubbs. Then they wind up spending most of their time writing tickets, doing paper work and showing up to court to make sure those tickets generate money. Meanwhile, real criminals are two blocks away selling drugs in Dundas square with no one around to stop them. It goes a long way towards explaining why they get so fucked up about the least little thing and tasing ten year old girls. Or beating up old ladies because they talk back too much.

]]> By: Red Leatherman http://boingboing.net/2009/12/04/how-police-departs-u.html#comment-656556 Red Leatherman Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-656556 @doublethink: A similar thing happened to my wife too, she had car trouble and the police stopped by, found that our car WAS-NOT reported stolen so they impounded it so they could continue to check if it was going to be reported stolen sometime in the future and tossed her in jail for a day. You can say the words to the tune of the Thanksgiving day massacre if ya want. @doublethink:
A similar thing happened to my wife too, she had car trouble and the police stopped by, found that our car WAS-NOT reported stolen so they impounded it so they could continue to check if it was going to be reported stolen sometime in the future and tossed her in jail for a day.
You can say the words to the tune of the Thanksgiving day massacre if ya want.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/12/04/how-police-departs-u.html#comment-656301 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-656301 It is so disingenuous to blame the President for every single tiny decision of various Government departments, as if he is the micro manager-in-chief. I can just see Obama in the war room debating the surge in Afghanistan and then taking a call about how best to rob poor people in order to support some local police department's budgets. *THIS JUST IN* Just because you don't like President Obama or something doesn't make him the origin of every gripe you have in the world. Good job not putting the blame on your local corrupt police department, the people who are really screwing you over. It is so disingenuous to blame the President for every single tiny decision of various Government departments, as if he is the micro manager-in-chief. I can just see Obama in the war room debating the surge in Afghanistan and then taking a call about how best to rob poor people in order to support some local police department’s budgets.

*THIS JUST IN* Just because you don’t like President Obama or something doesn’t make him the origin of every gripe you have in the world. Good job not putting the blame on your local corrupt police department, the people who are really screwing you over.

]]> By: dhalgren http://boingboing.net/2009/12/04/how-police-departs-u.html#comment-656574 dhalgren Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-656574 I think N.W.A. said it best, Fuck tha Police! I think N.W.A. said it best, Fuck tha Police!

]]> By: johnlancia http://boingboing.net/2009/12/04/how-police-departs-u.html#comment-656364 johnlancia Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-656364 I like President Obama, much better than I liked his predecessor. But that whole hope and change spiel he had was a crock of shit. He's pretty much Bush-lite. No Tortures brought to justice, escalating the war, same wiretapping going on, movie industry flacks working directly for him to bring new DRM into play, etc etc... Democrats and Republicans, more than at any time in their history, are just two sides of the same coin. I like President Obama, much better than I liked his predecessor. But that whole hope and change spiel he had was a crock of shit. He’s pretty much Bush-lite. No Tortures brought to justice, escalating the war, same wiretapping going on, movie industry flacks working directly for him to bring new DRM into play, etc etc…
Democrats and Republicans, more than at any time in their history, are just two sides of the same coin.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/12/04/how-police-departs-u.html#comment-656372 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-656372 Scuse me, but Wayne County is in Michigan (namely Detroit and surrounding area), not Illinois. Scuse me, but Wayne County is in Michigan (namely Detroit and surrounding area), not Illinois.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/12/04/how-police-departs-u.html#comment-656884 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-656884 if florida they are require to serve notice in a timely fashion. And usually, all it takes is for you to file an appeal and they release to you your stuff. if florida they are require to serve notice in a timely fashion. And usually, all it takes is for you to file an appeal and they release to you your stuff.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/12/04/how-police-departs-u.html#comment-657912 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-657912 I hope we get a handle on this type of abuse soon. It will only get harder as the government gets larger and hungrier. There will be more incentive to have police and prosecutors "self fund" in order to allow the rest of the budget to continue uncut. Let this kind seizure become ordinary, and pretty soon you won't like the guys who show up wanting to become cops. Dump these forfeiture laws, the red light cameras, and any other activity where we entangle police or prosecutorial self interest with the awesome power of the justice system. I hope we get a handle on this type of abuse soon. It will only get harder as the government gets larger and hungrier. There will be more incentive to have police and prosecutors “self fund” in order to allow the rest of the budget to continue uncut.

Let this kind seizure become ordinary, and pretty soon you won’t like the guys who show up wanting to become cops.

Dump these forfeiture laws, the red light cameras, and any other activity where we entangle police or prosecutorial self interest with the awesome power of the justice system.

]]>