Comments on: Rewriting "fear" memories http://boingboing.net/2009/12/14/rewriting-fear-memor.html Brain candy for Happy Mutants Sat, 25 May 2013 09:57:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: Xenu http://boingboing.net/2009/12/14/rewriting-fear-memor.html#comment-665095 Xenu Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-665095 Ah, I knew this plot seemed familiar! Ah, I knew this plot seemed familiar!

]]> By: Caroline http://boingboing.net/2009/12/14/rewriting-fear-memor.html#comment-665101 Caroline Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-665101 Talk to someone with severe PTSD sometime. The fear response to memories can become pathological, sending the body into full panic mode all the time at the slightest trigger of the memory. The physical and mental stress of feeling that much fear all the time can do really bad things to people. They can't integrate or learn from the frightening or painful experiences, because their brains constantly react by panicking. Being able to reduce the fear response to those memories would actually help those memories impart their "important information." Talk to someone with severe PTSD sometime.

The fear response to memories can become pathological, sending the body into full panic mode all the time at the slightest trigger of the memory. The physical and mental stress of feeling that much fear all the time can do really bad things to people. They can’t integrate or learn from the frightening or painful experiences, because their brains constantly react by panicking. Being able to reduce the fear response to those memories would actually help those memories impart their “important information.”

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/12/14/rewriting-fear-memor.html#comment-664851 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-664851 This is what most trauma therapies do, like EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing, which doesn't really rely on the eye movement thing anymore, but the name has stuck) except it doesn't "erase" the memory, just lessons the emotional valence. There's a really interesting article by Gunter and Bodner on memory and PTSD that I don't have the link to. This is what most trauma therapies do, like EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing, which doesn’t really rely on the eye movement thing anymore, but the name has stuck) except it doesn’t “erase” the memory, just lessons the emotional valence. There’s a really interesting article by Gunter and Bodner on memory and PTSD that I don’t have the link to.

]]> By: Phikus http://boingboing.net/2009/12/14/rewriting-fear-memor.html#comment-665124 Phikus Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-665124 You're right, I don't suffer from any life-crippling phobias. Dang it! For someone who does, and can find help in this, great. I was only speaking of my own personal experience and preference. But I believe that our fear informs us. We developed it for a reason; for survival. If we take away all fearful memories (which people would do if it were as easy as taking a pill,) then we might keep making the same mistakes over and over again. I find the best solution to fear is to face it (even for a phobic: a little at a time.) If you zap it away like magic, then you have not really found your courage. You have overcome nothing, so the potential to imprint a new phobia still exists in you. Often there is an easier solution than what technology / pharmacology can provide. I would venture to say that a person's irrational fear of dogs does define that person's experience to a large extent. I'm not saying it is the totality of who they are, but it at least defines how they get through the day in our modern milieu. Collectively, our experiences are all we really are (and I'm talking about identity and personality here.) Who knows what side effects may be caused by tugging at some of the strands that make us us. And I can think of a ton of nefarious uses for such an invention that are enough to make me phobic. You’re right, I don’t suffer from any life-crippling phobias. Dang it! For someone who does, and can find help in this, great. I was only speaking of my own personal experience and preference.

But I believe that our fear informs us. We developed it for a reason; for survival. If we take away all fearful memories (which people would do if it were as easy as taking a pill,) then we might keep making the same mistakes over and over again. I find the best solution to fear is to face it (even for a phobic: a little at a time.) If you zap it away like magic, then you have not really found your courage. You have overcome nothing, so the potential to imprint a new phobia still exists in you. Often there is an easier solution than what technology / pharmacology can provide.

I would venture to say that a person’s irrational fear of dogs does define that person’s experience to a large extent. I’m not saying it is the totality of who they are, but it at least defines how they get through the day in our modern milieu. Collectively, our experiences are all we really are (and I’m talking about identity and personality here.) Who knows what side effects may be caused by tugging at some of the strands that make us us. And I can think of a ton of nefarious uses for such an invention that are enough to make me phobic.

]]> By: Phikus http://boingboing.net/2009/12/14/rewriting-fear-memor.html#comment-664869 Phikus Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-664869 Erasing and changing memories. What could possibly go wrong? We won't remember, will we? Fearful memories impart important information for learning and development. Pull one thread, who knows what else might unravel that is important to a psyche, tempting as it may be. So no thanks. Our pain makes us who we are. Erasing and changing memories. What could possibly go wrong? We won’t remember, will we?

Fearful memories impart important information for learning and development. Pull one thread, who knows what else might unravel that is important to a psyche, tempting as it may be. So no thanks. Our pain makes us who we are.

]]> By: MrsBug http://boingboing.net/2009/12/14/rewriting-fear-memor.html#comment-665386 MrsBug Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-665386 I have to agree with your statement about stuff being connected. There's so much that's tied together, it would seem fool-hardy. Antinous, excellent point. If having an irrational fear is crippling, I can't imagine one where you DON'T KNOW what it's about. Talk about a definition of hell.... I have to agree with your statement about stuff being connected. There’s so much that’s tied together, it would seem fool-hardy.

Antinous, excellent point. If having an irrational fear is crippling, I can’t imagine one where you DON’T KNOW what it’s about. Talk about a definition of hell….

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/12/14/rewriting-fear-memor.html#comment-665133 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-665133 I agree that this being a 'wash away a bad day' idea could/would be bad. But, as a sufferer of PTSD, I can see the merit in some situations. You said that our fear informs us, for survival - but out of control, fear inhibits just that. My life is impaired by my mind's inability to work through events, and it definitely impairs the quality of my life. I've learned my lessons, and I'm ready to move on but my mind can't let go. You're talking survival - so am I. I agree that this being a ‘wash away a bad day’ idea could/would be bad.
But, as a sufferer of PTSD, I can see the merit in some situations. You said that our fear informs us, for survival – but out of control, fear inhibits just that. My life is impaired by my mind’s inability to work through events, and it definitely impairs the quality of my life. I’ve learned my lessons, and I’m ready to move on but my mind can’t let go. You’re talking survival – so am I.

]]> By: Phikus http://boingboing.net/2009/12/14/rewriting-fear-memor.html#comment-665137 Phikus Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-665137 How can any "important information" be imparted if the memory itself is gone? What relevance would such a vague remembrance have? It's tempting to wish for a miracle drug or procedure to free yourself of your debilitating fear. All I am saying is that one should be very careful of the potential cost in the form of irreversible side effects before making such a devil's bargain. The one thing that is true about tinkering with memory is that one never knows what one would be missing. There are many other methods of helping one to cope with fearful memories (some good, some bad) without complete erasure, so be careful what you wish for. That is all. How can any “important information” be imparted if the memory itself is gone? What relevance would such a vague remembrance have? It’s tempting to wish for a miracle drug or procedure to free yourself of your debilitating fear. All I am saying is that one should be very careful of the potential cost in the form of irreversible side effects before making such a devil’s bargain.

The one thing that is true about tinkering with memory is that one never knows what one would be missing. There are many other methods of helping one to cope with fearful memories (some good, some bad) without complete erasure, so be careful what you wish for. That is all.

]]> By: Antinous / Moderator http://boingboing.net/2009/12/14/rewriting-fear-memor.html#comment-665138 Antinous / Moderator Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-665138 Well, as someone with PTSD, I can tell you that remembering the incident is the only way that you're going to work through it. Just because scientists believe that they've erased the memory doesn't mean that the terror isn't stored in some corner of the unconscious that we haven't discovered yet. Imagine having the incessant unknown fear and never being able to understand where it comes from or work through it. If Kafka and Sartre had a child, that's the story that he'd write. Well, as someone with PTSD, I can tell you that remembering the incident is the only way that you’re going to work through it. Just because scientists believe that they’ve erased the memory doesn’t mean that the terror isn’t stored in some corner of the unconscious that we haven’t discovered yet. Imagine having the incessant unknown fear and never being able to understand where it comes from or work through it. If Kafka and Sartre had a child, that’s the story that he’d write.

]]> By: Avram / Moderator http://boingboing.net/2009/12/14/rewriting-fear-memor.html#comment-664884 Avram / Moderator Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-664884 Phikus, I'm guessing you don't suffer from some kind of life-crippling phobia or traumatic memory. Phikus, I’m guessing you don’t suffer from some kind of life-crippling phobia or traumatic memory.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/12/14/rewriting-fear-memor.html#comment-664888 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-664888 Have they not ever heard of Neuro-linguistic programming? NLP can be very effective at reassociating the subjective and the techniques have been around since the 70s. Have they not ever heard of Neuro-linguistic programming? NLP can be very effective at reassociating the subjective and the techniques have been around since the 70s.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/12/14/rewriting-fear-memor.html#comment-664921 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-664921 No sir. But then, I am a plant. (With apologies to the creators of Quark) No sir. But then, I am a plant.

(With apologies to the creators of Quark)

]]> By: CANTFIGHTTHEDITE http://boingboing.net/2009/12/14/rewriting-fear-memor.html#comment-664934 CANTFIGHTTHEDITE Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-664934 Isn't any and all technology a double-edged sword? So your irrational fear of dogs, or whatever, is rationalized by how it defines you as a person? Not really. Isn’t any and all technology a double-edged sword?

So your irrational fear of dogs, or whatever, is rationalized by how it defines you as a person? Not really.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/12/14/rewriting-fear-memor.html#comment-664965 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-664965 Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind? Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind?

]]> By: Teapunk http://boingboing.net/2009/12/14/rewriting-fear-memor.html#comment-665221 Teapunk Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-665221 And somewhere at the end of this theory, we have the Dollhouse. Or Supersoldiers, whose brains are rewritten to forget all traumatic experiences of war and are ready for the next battle. It would be of course great if this method could help people with PTSD, but how can you get over something if you can't remember what is was you wanted to get over? How do you know the trigger is really gone? A simple smell can bring you a thousand memories - how do you delete that? And somewhere at the end of this theory, we have the Dollhouse.
Or Supersoldiers, whose brains are rewritten to forget all traumatic experiences of war and are ready for the next battle.
It would be of course great if this method could help people with PTSD, but how can you get over something if you can’t remember what is was you wanted to get over?
How do you know the trigger is really gone? A simple smell can bring you a thousand memories – how do you delete that?

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/12/14/rewriting-fear-memor.html#comment-666255 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-666255 Wow --- science is catching up with scientology Wow — science is catching up with scientology

]]> By: nobody http://boingboing.net/2009/12/14/rewriting-fear-memor.html#comment-665494 nobody Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-665494 Scientologists claim that this is possible without the pharm. When I was unfortunate enough to attend one of their conventions at age eleven, this technique was our initial introduction to the religion. If you ever hear a scientologist say something like "What are you afraid of?" or "Now tell me that story again," now you can nod appreciatively before you smack them in the forehead. Scientologists claim that this is possible without the pharm. When I was unfortunate enough to attend one of their conventions at age eleven, this technique was our initial introduction to the religion. If you ever hear a scientologist say something like “What are you afraid of?” or “Now tell me that story again,” now you can nod appreciatively before you smack them in the forehead.

]]> By: CANTFIGHTTHEDITE http://boingboing.net/2009/12/14/rewriting-fear-memor.html#comment-665496 CANTFIGHTTHEDITE Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-665496 Yes, the memories of our experiences define us, which Greg Egan addressed in Permutation City. However, if instead of erasing memories we can remember them without directly re-experiencing negative emotions, and only remember that we happened to experiencing negative emotions at the time, I think that would be a very useful tool that could help a boatload of people get on with their lives. You wouldn't lose the experience, only the overpowering emotional baggage. Yes, the memories of our experiences define us, which Greg Egan addressed in Permutation City. However, if instead of erasing memories we can remember them without directly re-experiencing negative emotions, and only remember that we happened to experiencing negative emotions at the time, I think that would be a very useful tool that could help a boatload of people get on with their lives. You wouldn’t lose the experience, only the overpowering emotional baggage.

]]> By: cuvtixo http://boingboing.net/2009/12/14/rewriting-fear-memor.html#comment-664985 cuvtixo Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-664985 This reminds me that many "general" anesthetics work by blocking the emotional response to pain, rather than the sensation of pain itself. It is rather strange to knowingly and consciously experience, because we usually don't separate the two. But physical pain becomes much less unpleasant without the dread and panic that usually accompany it. And while undergoing surgery, one doesn't miss the "learning experience" that would come from the onset of pure pain. This reminds me that many “general” anesthetics work by blocking the emotional response to pain, rather than the sensation of pain itself. It is rather strange to knowingly and consciously experience, because we usually don’t separate the two. But physical pain becomes much less unpleasant without the dread and panic that usually accompany it. And while undergoing surgery, one doesn’t miss the “learning experience” that would come from the onset of pure pain.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/12/14/rewriting-fear-memor.html#comment-665012 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-665012 What is the technique? The linked article never says. What is the technique?

The linked article never says.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/12/14/rewriting-fear-memor.html#comment-665528 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-665528 There is something that helps one to remember experiences without directly re-experiencing negative emotions. It's called MDMA and was used extensively as a powerful tool for psychotherapy before being banned. There is something that helps one to remember experiences without directly re-experiencing negative emotions. It’s called MDMA and was used extensively as a powerful tool for psychotherapy before being banned.

]]> By: Roach http://boingboing.net/2009/12/14/rewriting-fear-memor.html#comment-665021 Roach Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-665021 Todd Brown over at Twitch recently wrote about a short film about this subject called "Re-Wire" - http://twitchfilm.net/news/2009/12/she-said-you-could-get-rid-of-it.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TwitchEverything+%28Twitch%3A+Everything%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher Todd Brown over at Twitch recently wrote about a short film about this subject called “Re-Wire” -

http://twitchfilm.net/news/2009/12/she-said-you-could-get-rid-of-it.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TwitchEverything+%28Twitch%3A+Everything%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/12/14/rewriting-fear-memor.html#comment-665311 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-665311 "I'm thinking of ordering one of those mind-erasing kits." "You already HAVE one!" “I’m thinking of ordering one of those mind-erasing kits.”

“You already HAVE one!”

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/12/14/rewriting-fear-memor.html#comment-664815 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-664815 Hmmm, seems like there might be other useful applications for this technology? Hmmm, seems like there might be other useful applications for this technology?

]]> By: CLAVDIVS http://boingboing.net/2009/12/14/rewriting-fear-memor.html#comment-665846 CLAVDIVS Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-665846 Cuvxito, do you have a link for info about those anasthetics? That's seriously the freakiest drug I've ever heard of, even more than the anti-anxiety drugs that don't keep you from being scared but just make you not care that you are. Cuvxito, do you have a link for info about those anasthetics? That’s seriously the freakiest drug I’ve ever heard of, even more than the anti-anxiety drugs that don’t keep you from being scared but just make you not care that you are.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2009/12/14/rewriting-fear-memor.html#comment-665598 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-665598 Although one common reason people go to therapy is to help cope with daily life, another key purpose of psychotherapy is to help process experiences: NLP, EMDR, and process-experiential therapy (PET) are all ways in which experiences can be transformed. Neurologically, you are decoupling triggers from fear reaction. Yes, psychotherapy - like life experience - can change your brain. I suppose what I'm saying is that this article can represent cutting edge research only in a field which forgot that "invasive" procedures aren't the only ones that are actually effective. Duh. Although one common reason people go to therapy is to help cope with daily life, another key purpose of psychotherapy is to help process experiences: NLP, EMDR, and process-experiential therapy (PET) are all ways in which experiences can be transformed. Neurologically, you are decoupling triggers from fear reaction. Yes, psychotherapy – like life experience – can change your brain.

I suppose what I’m saying is that this article can represent cutting edge research only in a field which forgot that “invasive” procedures aren’t the only ones that are actually effective. Duh.

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