Comments on: Labeling the consumer: how mindless ID-scanning can hurt customers http://boingboing.net/2010/03/03/labeling-the-consume.html Brain candy for Happy Mutants Thu, 20 Jun 2013 08:20:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: Maik http://boingboing.net/2010/03/03/labeling-the-consume.html#comment-726528 Maik Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-726528 An argument for ID scanning is that it's a good way to ensure the ID will actually be checked. If a store simply makes it policy to check every ID, they won't be. It takes time, it annoys the customer and in many cases it's obvious the customer is of age anyway, so the employees will just skip it. In the supermarket I use most often, they now have integrated ID checks with the cash register. As soon as the barcode of a restricted item is scanned, the register reminds the cashier to check ID with a petulant beep and an on-screen message; the cashier can't scan items or do anything else until he presses two buttons to indicate that he has verified the customers age. Apparently, some programming effort went into the system: it knows which age is required for which item, it calculates which date (or earlier) needs to be on the identification document, and if e.g. an 18+ item has already been confirmed it won't ask for a 16+ item scanned later. So what happens in practice? As soon as they hear the tell-tale beep, the cashiers immediately and automatically hit the buttons to make the notice go away, without as much as a single look at the screen or the customer, and certainly without asking for ID. If the cashier is required to physically insert the ID card somewhere, this problem is avoided. This obviously still leaves a whole lot of other loopholes in the system, but I'm willing to accept the premise that selling some things to kids is a bad idea, and that a reasonably well-working system is better than nothing. Of course, none of this can be used to argue for storing any information from the identification document after the age check is completed. That's just inappropriate. An argument for ID scanning is that it’s a good way to ensure the ID will actually be checked. If a store simply makes it policy to check every ID, they won’t be. It takes time, it annoys the customer and in many cases it’s obvious the customer is of age anyway, so the employees will just skip it.
In the supermarket I use most often, they now have integrated ID checks with the cash register. As soon as the barcode of a restricted item is scanned, the register reminds the cashier to check ID with a petulant beep and an on-screen message; the cashier can’t scan items or do anything else until he presses two buttons to indicate that he has verified the customers age. Apparently, some programming effort went into the system: it knows which age is required for which item, it calculates which date (or earlier) needs to be on the identification document, and if e.g. an 18+ item has already been confirmed it won’t ask for a 16+ item scanned later.
So what happens in practice? As soon as they hear the tell-tale beep, the cashiers immediately and automatically hit the buttons to make the notice go away, without as much as a single look at the screen or the customer, and certainly without asking for ID.
If the cashier is required to physically insert the ID card somewhere, this problem is avoided. This obviously still leaves a whole lot of other loopholes in the system, but I’m willing to accept the premise that selling some things to kids is a bad idea, and that a reasonably well-working system is better than nothing.
Of course, none of this can be used to argue for storing any information from the identification document after the age check is completed. That’s just inappropriate.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/03/03/labeling-the-consume.html#comment-726534 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-726534 It's strange to not be allowed buy alcohol at the age of 20. It’s strange to not be allowed buy alcohol at the age of 20.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/03/03/labeling-the-consume.html#comment-728333 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-728333 I went to school in Pittsburgh 20 years ago. The state run hard liquor stores didn't card anyone ever. That such draconian restrictions apply be beer sales is hilariously ironic. I went to school in Pittsburgh 20 years ago. The state run hard liquor stores didn’t card anyone ever.

That such draconian restrictions apply be beer sales is hilariously ironic.

]]> By: bosconet http://boingboing.net/2010/03/03/labeling-the-consume.html#comment-726543 bosconet Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-726543 Hmm, me thinks that instead of using your driver's license you should just use your passport. While that does contain demographic info it does not have a machine readable address. Also if you are concerned about your alcohol purchases being tracked or anything else associated with purchasing your booze with a credit card, just use cash. Hmm, me thinks that instead of using your driver’s license you should just use your passport. While that does contain demographic info it does not have a machine readable address. Also if you are concerned about your alcohol purchases being tracked or anything else associated with purchasing your booze with a credit card, just use cash.

]]> By: JayByrd http://boingboing.net/2010/03/03/labeling-the-consume.html#comment-726546 JayByrd Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-726546 There was a divorce case in Idaho a few years back where wifey's lawyer served a subpoena on a grocery chain to acquire purchase records on hubby's beer-buying habits as documented by his courtesy card. It worked. There was a divorce case in Idaho a few years back where wifey’s lawyer served a subpoena on a grocery chain to acquire purchase records on hubby’s beer-buying habits as documented by his courtesy card. It worked.

]]> By: justi121883 http://boingboing.net/2010/03/03/labeling-the-consume.html#comment-727064 justi121883 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-727064 @16: Native Pennsylvanian here, and as some people have hinted, the PA liquor laws have nothing to do with "prohibition" and everything to do with the fact that the state booze monopolies are enormous tools for political patronage. It started partly as a way to pacify organized crime at the end of the Prohibition era--all the better-connected rum-runners were shuffled off into the Dept. of the Sauce. Now, they're just a bunch of bureaucrats on rich sinecures bartered for campaign support. @16: Native Pennsylvanian here, and as some people have hinted, the PA liquor laws have nothing to do with “prohibition” and everything to do with the fact that the state booze monopolies are enormous tools for political patronage. It started partly as a way to pacify organized crime at the end of the Prohibition era–all the better-connected rum-runners were shuffled off into the Dept. of the Sauce. Now, they’re just a bunch of bureaucrats on rich sinecures bartered for campaign support.

]]> By: jz639 http://boingboing.net/2010/03/03/labeling-the-consume.html#comment-726812 jz639 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-726812 I've never, in all my years living in PA or elsewhere, heard of the state referred to as "east Utah", though I can understand the comparison from a disatnce. PA has bad liquor laws, Utah has (I'm guessing) bad liquor laws. Do PA liquor laws really keep you from having a drink? I'm not sold. PA laws encountered by the general consumer (since I haven't seen them noted elsewhere) go something like this: - beer is sold by the case or larger quantity only in beer stores. This has been a boon for local breweries, which can be more competitive against national brands per case, but not per six pack. Pennsylvania has, per my observation, one of the healthiest local microbrewery markets in the nation. The juggernaut of this industry is Yuengling, which is family owned, the oldest operating brewery in America, and very interested in keeping Bud and Miller from overrunning PA beer sales. - beer can be sold in six packs as restaurants and bars which meet certain criteria, and never more than a twelve pack can be sold at once to one customer. - wine and liquor is sold in state-run liquor stores only, with the exception of state LCB-sanctioned wineries and their sales outlets. In years past, the liquor stores were often run like a catalog company, where you place your order from a catalog at the front desk and a bottle shows up from the back on a conveyor belt. This is no longer the case. - each county has a given amount of liquor licenses for restaurant and bar service. This is a problem in some counties as economic trends turn the liquor license into the most valuable asset of a small-town bar/restaurant and nightlife flees to more populated areas. - the state-run liquor control board controls the sale of wine and liquor throughout the state, that means if you aren't in their catalog, you aren't getting sold without a special arrangement. Importing wine is also a problem in PA, though I'm not sure how much more than any other comparable state. - Until a few years ago, Sunday sales were limited to six packs at restaurants. Some beer distributers and state run liquor stores are now open on Sunday until 5 or so. AS for the quality of the local booze in PA, Yuengling, Victory, Iron City, Lions Head, Troegs, and any number of other local brewhouses are able to provide a wide selection of top-shelf brews. The strange beer laws are often traced back (according to them) to the efforts of these local brewers and their distributors to keep the local industry competitive against national brands. If wine or spirits are your thing, it's a different story entirely. Red wine production is climactically limited in much of PA, though PA has an excellent climate for white grapes and fruit, so whites and dessert wines of top quality are not hard to locate among local wineries. Wines from out of state are largely limited to a select list of national brands. Fetzer and Gallow show up on far too many shelves in PA, but some improvements have been made over recent years. Booze isn't a big production item in PA, and shelves are stocked almost exclusively with proven national sellers. I haven't seen much in the realms of micro-distilleries outside of PA, which leads me to believe that this isn't just a state-specific issue. Of course none of this addresses privacy issues or identification, which is the real reason for the thread. Sorry about that. I’ve never, in all my years living in PA or elsewhere, heard of the state referred to as “east Utah”, though I can understand the comparison from a disatnce. PA has bad liquor laws, Utah has (I’m guessing) bad liquor laws. Do PA liquor laws really keep you from having a drink? I’m not sold.

PA laws encountered by the general consumer (since I haven’t seen them noted elsewhere) go something like this:

- beer is sold by the case or larger quantity only in beer stores. This has been a boon for local breweries, which can be more competitive against national brands per case, but not per six pack. Pennsylvania has, per my observation, one of the healthiest local microbrewery markets in the nation. The juggernaut of this industry is Yuengling, which is family owned, the oldest operating brewery in America, and very interested in keeping Bud and Miller from overrunning PA beer sales.
- beer can be sold in six packs as restaurants and bars which meet certain criteria, and never more than a twelve pack can be sold at once to one customer.
- wine and liquor is sold in state-run liquor stores only, with the exception of state LCB-sanctioned wineries and their sales outlets. In years past, the liquor stores were often run like a catalog company, where you place your order from a catalog at the front desk and a bottle shows up from the back on a conveyor belt. This is no longer the case.
- each county has a given amount of liquor licenses for restaurant and bar service. This is a problem in some counties as economic trends turn the liquor license into the most valuable asset of a small-town bar/restaurant and nightlife flees to more populated areas.
- the state-run liquor control board controls the sale of wine and liquor throughout the state, that means if you aren’t in their catalog, you aren’t getting sold without a special arrangement. Importing wine is also a problem in PA, though I’m not sure how much more than any other comparable state.
- Until a few years ago, Sunday sales were limited to six packs at restaurants. Some beer distributers and state run liquor stores are now open on Sunday until 5 or so.

AS for the quality of the local booze in PA, Yuengling, Victory, Iron City, Lions Head, Troegs, and any number of other local brewhouses are able to provide a wide selection of top-shelf brews. The strange beer laws are often traced back (according to them) to the efforts of these local brewers and their distributors to keep the local industry competitive against national brands.

If wine or spirits are your thing, it’s a different story entirely. Red wine production is climactically limited in much of PA, though PA has an excellent climate for white grapes and fruit, so whites and dessert wines of top quality are not hard to locate among local wineries. Wines from out of state are largely limited to a select list of national brands. Fetzer and Gallow show up on far too many shelves in PA, but some improvements have been made over recent years. Booze isn’t a big production item in PA, and shelves are stocked almost exclusively with proven national sellers. I haven’t seen much in the realms of micro-distilleries outside of PA, which leads me to believe that this isn’t just a state-specific issue.

Of course none of this addresses privacy issues or identification, which is the real reason for the thread. Sorry about that.

]]> By: mjj12 http://boingboing.net/2010/03/03/labeling-the-consume.html#comment-726561 mjj12 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-726561 I come from Australia, and the state of New South Wales (containing Sydney) also has ridiculous laws. To open a bar, you have to have a hotel licence, and there are a finite number of these. (One does not require such a licence to provide accommodation, so a "hotel licence" is basically a licence to open a bar). These licences sell for hundreds of thousands of dollars in the way that New York taxi plates do. There are also a relatively small number of licences to run "bottle shops" (ie liquor stores), and these again sell for large sums of money. Grocery stores, gas stations etc cannot sell alcohol unless they buy one of these licences and then they open a separate alcohol store next to their main store, with a separate check out line etc. There are all kinds of weird rules to prevent anyone else competing with these businesses. For instance, it is illegal to drink (or even hold) alcoholic drinks in a restaurant while standing up. Theatres and cinemas may have bars, but nobody may buy drinks from them except ticket holders. And lots of other weird stuff. It's all vested interests wanting to keep monopolies, but anytime someone suggests changing it, we immediately here about how it is all about public safety / protecting children / blah. I come from Australia, and the state of New South Wales (containing Sydney) also has ridiculous laws. To open a bar, you have to have a hotel licence, and there are a finite number of these. (One does not require such a licence to provide accommodation, so a “hotel licence” is basically a licence to open a bar). These licences sell for hundreds of thousands of dollars in the way that New York taxi plates do. There are also a relatively small number of licences to run “bottle shops” (ie liquor stores), and these again sell for large sums of money. Grocery stores, gas stations etc cannot sell alcohol unless they buy one of these licences and then they open a separate alcohol store next to their main store, with a separate check out line etc. There are all kinds of weird rules to prevent anyone else competing with these businesses. For instance, it is illegal to drink (or even hold) alcoholic drinks in a restaurant while standing up. Theatres and cinemas may have bars, but nobody may buy drinks from them except ticket holders. And lots of other weird stuff. It’s all vested interests wanting to keep monopolies, but anytime someone suggests changing it, we immediately here about how it is all about public safety / protecting children / blah.

]]> By: efergus3 http://boingboing.net/2010/03/03/labeling-the-consume.html#comment-726562 efergus3 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-726562 The Song Of The Temperance Union: http://supersearch.mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=6989 The Song Of The Temperance Union: http://supersearch.mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=6989

]]> By: Viadd http://boingboing.net/2010/03/03/labeling-the-consume.html#comment-726819 Viadd Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-726819 Does your local pot dealer scan your driver's license? Maybe you should switch. Does your local pot dealer scan your driver’s license? Maybe you should switch.

]]> By: JonStewartMill http://boingboing.net/2010/03/03/labeling-the-consume.html#comment-726565 JonStewartMill Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-726565 Only about 25% of Americans own passports, and I'd guess that the majority of that 25% leave their passports home unless they expect to be traveling outside the country. Only about 25% of Americans own passports, and I’d guess that the majority of that 25% leave their passports home unless they expect to be traveling outside the country.

]]> By: tsdguy http://boingboing.net/2010/03/03/labeling-the-consume.html#comment-726573 tsdguy Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-726573 The current PA policy is a combination of political patronage (LCB is 1 gigantic political favor dump), political power (Beer distributors are a major political contributor - way over tavern and bar organizations - remember who's wife is a multimillionaire beer distributor) and revenue (LCB makes billions for the state). PA law requires establishments that server beer and wish to sell must have a large % (like 75%) of it's sales to food. I think the scanning is an attempt to match up the physical license with the supposedly secure (hah!)data on the strip - like someone that could fake an ID including the security hologram couldn't fake the mag data. As far as I know, the data is local - ie, just shown to the cashier to match with the license. The current PA policy is a combination of political patronage (LCB is 1 gigantic political favor dump), political power (Beer distributors are a major political contributor – way over tavern and bar organizations – remember who’s wife is a multimillionaire beer distributor) and revenue (LCB makes billions for the state).

PA law requires establishments that server beer and wish to sell must have a large % (like 75%) of it’s sales to food.

I think the scanning is an attempt to match up the physical license with the supposedly secure (hah!)data on the strip – like someone that could fake an ID including the security hologram couldn’t fake the mag data. As far as I know, the data is local – ie, just shown to the cashier to match with the license.

]]> By: _OM_ http://boingboing.net/2010/03/03/labeling-the-consume.html#comment-726584 _OM_ Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-726584 ...The problem started when Prohibition was put into effect. It was not something that a great majority of the US wanted at the time, but the Temperance movement was wielding the "Sword of God" at that time, and like the Sufferage movement took advantage of a war-weary and confused populace to force what was clearly a "special interest group" agenda into a bill that became a Constitutional amendment. One that state governments passed without allowing the voters in most states to decide out of fear of the Bibble Thumpers and their claim to be speaking for God/Yahweh/Roddenberry. ...The bigger mistake, however, was made by FDR. One of the ways to help stimulate the economy was to get the Farm Belt going again, and to do this he needed to restore an additional traditional need for grains: the manufacture of alcohol for consumption. At the same time, it became obvious that Prohibition wasn't working, as those who wanted a drink would get one no matter the cost. And as most people know, the "wrong" people were getting rich off of the sales of illegal liquor. The problem was that the Bibble Thumpers were not budging over Prohibition, and when FDR started vowing to end it if elected in his campaign speeches, these Bibble Thumpers started campaigning against him on the basic bullshit platform that "it don't matter who's elected, so long as he keeps the demon rum out of the hands of honest Americans!" ...Now, here's where FDR's mistake comes in: in the states where the greatest resistance to repealing Prohibition was concentrated, FDR made a bunch of "under the table" deals that led to the totally clusterfracked mish-mash of liquor laws we have across the country today. In exchange for supporting the repeal of the 19th Amendment, the states, counties, cities, towns, and even *neighborhoods* would retain the right to individually decide just how much that repeal applied to them. They could open up the sale of alcohol to the entire state, or they could tightly control it down to city blocks if they wished. Just so long as production of consumable spirits were allowed, and the distilleries could open back up again to buy grains from the farmers who now had a new and viable market for their goods. In turn, the Alcohol and Beverage Commissions of most of the states were given a wide range of powers that effectively exempted them from having to respect the constitutional rights of anyone they bust. Hell,if Boing Boing is so worried about the DMCA, they should look at the TABC and its bust record sometimes. ...What FDR should have done was renig on his deals the second he got into office. The repeal of the 19th Amendment should have allowed for consumable spirits to be produced in the US, and sold *anywhere* in the US. From the States down to the Neighborhoods, booze would be legal to sell and consume by anyone of legal adult age, no exceptions. This would have effectively nuked not only the power base of crooks like Al Capone - which was the public face of the evils of Prohibition - but the power base of the Bibble Thumpers who caused the mess in the first place. Considering the situation at the time, he could have easily gotten away with this by pointing out *both* of these failings, and the nation would have thrown the Bibble Thumpers into the jails as readily as they wanted to end Scarface's empire with a hail of lead. ...But he didn't. And that's why liquor laws across this country are, as stated above, a total clusterfrack. There's no logical reason for one county to be dry when the county next door is 100% wet any more than there is a rational reason to deny alcohol to someone for three years after they've become a legal adult with voting rights. Especially if they're old enough to go to war and die for their country. …The problem started when Prohibition was put into effect. It was not something that a great majority of the US wanted at the time, but the Temperance movement was wielding the “Sword of God” at that time, and like the Sufferage movement took advantage of a war-weary and confused populace to force what was clearly a “special interest group” agenda into a bill that became a Constitutional amendment. One that state governments passed without allowing the voters in most states to decide out of fear of the Bibble Thumpers and their claim to be speaking for God/Yahweh/Roddenberry.

…The bigger mistake, however, was made by FDR. One of the ways to help stimulate the economy was to get the Farm Belt going again, and to do this he needed to restore an additional traditional need for grains: the manufacture of alcohol for consumption. At the same time, it became obvious that Prohibition wasn’t working, as those who wanted a drink would get one no matter the cost. And as most people know, the “wrong” people were getting rich off of the sales of illegal liquor. The problem was that the Bibble Thumpers were not budging over Prohibition, and when FDR started vowing to end it if elected in his campaign speeches, these Bibble Thumpers started campaigning against him on the basic bullshit platform that “it don’t matter who’s elected, so long as he keeps the demon rum out of the hands of honest Americans!”

…Now, here’s where FDR’s mistake comes in: in the states where the greatest resistance to repealing Prohibition was concentrated, FDR made a bunch of “under the table” deals that led to the totally clusterfracked mish-mash of liquor laws we have across the country today. In exchange for supporting the repeal of the 19th Amendment, the states, counties, cities, towns, and even *neighborhoods* would retain the right to individually decide just how much that repeal applied to them. They could open up the sale of alcohol to the entire state, or they could tightly control it down to city blocks if they wished. Just so long as production of consumable spirits were allowed, and the distilleries could open back up again to buy grains from the farmers who now had a new and viable market for their goods. In turn, the Alcohol and Beverage Commissions of most of the states were given a wide range of powers that effectively exempted them from having to respect the constitutional rights of anyone they bust. Hell,if Boing Boing is so worried about the DMCA, they should look at the TABC and its bust record sometimes.

…What FDR should have done was renig on his deals the second he got into office. The repeal of the 19th Amendment should have allowed for consumable spirits to be produced in the US, and sold *anywhere* in the US. From the States down to the Neighborhoods, booze would be legal to sell and consume by anyone of legal adult age, no exceptions. This would have effectively nuked not only the power base of crooks like Al Capone – which was the public face of the evils of Prohibition – but the power base of the Bibble Thumpers who caused the mess in the first place. Considering the situation at the time, he could have easily gotten away with this by pointing out *both* of these failings, and the nation would have thrown the Bibble Thumpers into the jails as readily as they wanted to end Scarface’s empire with a hail of lead.

…But he didn’t. And that’s why liquor laws across this country are, as stated above, a total clusterfrack. There’s no logical reason for one county to be dry when the county next door is 100% wet any more than there is a rational reason to deny alcohol to someone for three years after they’ve become a legal adult with voting rights. Especially if they’re old enough to go to war and die for their country.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/03/03/labeling-the-consume.html#comment-726591 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-726591 I had the bar code on my ID scanned once, and only once, At a gas station, to buy a pack of smokes. Immediately after getting in my car I took a black paint pen and colored in a few white spots, then took my pocket knife and scrapped off a few of the black spots. Now the cashier tries to scan it in 3 or 4 times, then just puts in my birthday and moves on. I'm not sure what one can do for a mag strip, but carving out a couple chunks should do the trick. I also don't know whether messing with IDs in this fashion is legal but fuck it, it's my personal data and if I don't want to give it to you, you don't need it. And to ANON @#11 "First, I wouldn't take my kids to a liquor store with me. Having the liquor store come to me isn't in my kids' best interest either, I don't think. So I'll leave them home with my wife, but that means they don't get to go shopping and see how food is chosen and money is managed and all the other stuff you can learn there." Is the very sight and presence of alcohol going to twist and warp your children into raging alcoholics? Along with choosing food, and managing money, a really important lesson you might want to instill is that there is nothing sinister or evil about alcohol. Among responsible adults it is perfectly fine to enjoy a beer, or glass of wine, or even too much beer, and 5 glasses of wine(as long as you have a DD. By shielding them at all cost from the very sight of alcohol you're probably just setting yourself up for a lot of disappointment when they get older. "Second, for alcoholics and other substance addicts this has -got- to be a torment. Before, you had to avoid bars and liquor stores if you wanted to avoid temptation. Now you have to avoid grocery stores, too?" I've supported many of my friends in getting help for substance abuse. Taken them to AA and NA meetings, driven them out to a shack in the country when they are coming down and need to get away from it all. Most of them were successful in their efforts, and regularly hang out at bars (drinking free cokes as the DD), and believe it or not even go grocery shopping from time to time. One of them actually braved going to a liquor store (GASP) to get me a bottle of wine as a house warming gift. I'm not, nor have I ever been an alcoholic, so perhaps I shouldn't speak for those that are, but I think most would take your suggestion of "Torment at the grocery store" with a laugh. The onus is on the addict to adjust their behavior in order to function in society, not the other way around. If someone is having trouble resisting temptation while they buy ramen, that person needs to get over it and move on. Not saying that's an easy thing to do, but it is what must be done. I had the bar code on my ID scanned once, and only once, At a gas station, to buy a pack of smokes.
Immediately after getting in my car I took a black paint pen and colored in a few white spots, then took my pocket knife and scrapped off a few of the black spots. Now the cashier tries to scan it in 3 or 4 times, then just puts in my birthday and moves on.
I’m not sure what one can do for a mag strip, but carving out a couple chunks should do the trick.
I also don’t know whether messing with IDs in this fashion is legal but fuck it, it’s my personal data and if I don’t want to give it to you, you don’t need it.

And to ANON @#11
“First, I wouldn’t take my kids to a liquor store with me. Having the liquor store come to me isn’t in my kids’ best interest either, I don’t think. So I’ll leave them home with my wife, but that means they don’t get to go shopping and see how food is chosen and money is managed and all the other stuff you can learn there.”

Is the very sight and presence of alcohol going to twist and warp your children into raging alcoholics? Along with choosing food, and managing money, a really important lesson you might want to instill is that there is nothing sinister or evil about alcohol. Among responsible adults it is perfectly fine to enjoy a beer, or glass of wine, or even too much beer, and 5 glasses of wine(as long as you have a DD. By shielding them at all cost from the very sight of alcohol you’re probably just setting yourself up for a lot of disappointment when they get older.

“Second, for alcoholics and other substance addicts this has -got- to be a torment. Before, you had to avoid bars and liquor stores if you wanted to avoid temptation. Now you have to avoid grocery stores, too?”

I’ve supported many of my friends in getting help for substance abuse. Taken them to AA and NA meetings, driven them out to a shack in the country when they are coming down and need to get away from it all. Most of them were successful in their efforts, and regularly hang out at bars (drinking free cokes as the DD), and believe it or not even go grocery shopping from time to time. One of them actually braved going to a liquor store (GASP) to get me a bottle of wine as a house warming gift. I’m not, nor have I ever been an alcoholic, so perhaps I shouldn’t speak for those that are, but I think most would take your suggestion of “Torment at the grocery store” with a laugh. The onus is on the addict to adjust their behavior in order to function in society, not the other way around. If someone is having trouble resisting temptation while they buy ramen, that person needs to get over it and move on. Not saying that’s an easy thing to do, but it is what must be done.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/03/03/labeling-the-consume.html#comment-726592 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-726592 I live in the Pittsburgh area. We do have very strict alcohol laws, but Mike forgot to mention the six pack shops in Pennsylvania as a possible source of beer. They are more of a pain really than a convenience. They are always inhabited by the shadiest of local folk, the prices are high and you can only carry out 24 beers at a time. So if you were planning on getting two cases for a party you have to make two trips to your car. I went with a couple of friends to buy beer at the Giant Eagle last week in Washington Pennsylvania and all three of us had to have our ID’s scanned even though only one of us was buying beer. Also, when I jokingly made the comment “just like old times” while handing him my card the clerk shot me a look that could be described as borderline combative. Seeing this, my other friend decided to joke about having a fake ID. The clerk stopped mid-transaction made a very stern comment about how he can’t say that then proceeded to scan the ID and study the picture on the card for almost a full minute. We laughed the situation off as we have encountered many like it while living in Pennsylvania. Oh and we have horrible public transportation so the DUI’s and public intoxication crimes in the area are through the roof. I live in the Pittsburgh area. We do have very strict alcohol laws, but Mike forgot to mention the six pack shops in Pennsylvania as a possible source of beer. They are more of a pain really than a convenience. They are always inhabited by the shadiest of local folk, the prices are high and you can only carry out 24 beers at a time. So if you were planning on getting two cases for a party you have to make two trips to your car. I went with a couple of friends to buy beer at the Giant Eagle last week in Washington Pennsylvania and all three of us had to have our ID’s scanned even though only one of us was buying beer. Also, when I jokingly made the comment “just like old times” while handing him my card the clerk shot me a look that could be described as borderline combative. Seeing this, my other friend decided to joke about having a fake ID. The clerk stopped mid-transaction made a very stern comment about how he can’t say that then proceeded to scan the ID and study the picture on the card for almost a full minute. We laughed the situation off as we have encountered many like it while living in Pennsylvania. Oh and we have horrible public transportation so the DUI’s and public intoxication crimes in the area are through the roof.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/03/03/labeling-the-consume.html#comment-728898 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-728898 Other states offer beer and wine in their grocery stores, but do not mandate the ID-scanning such as in PA with the Giant Eagle chain. As another person said - many times I can walk into the liquor store without having my ID even checked. Then again, I am over 30 now so I shouldn't have to be scanned at all. What if someone who visibly looks older than 30 (ex: wrinkles and grey hair) - seriously people are just getting dumber these days! Other states offer beer and wine in their grocery stores, but do not mandate the ID-scanning such as in PA with the Giant Eagle chain.

As another person said – many times I can walk into the liquor store without having my ID even checked. Then again, I am over 30 now so I shouldn’t have to be scanned at all. What if someone who visibly looks older than 30 (ex: wrinkles and grey hair) – seriously people are just getting dumber these days!

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/03/03/labeling-the-consume.html#comment-900422 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-900422 Yes or no ? When my Drivers License is scanned does it record my alcohol purchases? Yes or no ? When my Drivers License is scanned does it record my alcohol purchases?

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/03/03/labeling-the-consume.html#comment-726872 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-726872 I live in Rochester, Wegmans' home town, it is definitely not a company-wide policy to scan your ID for booze, when they scan some booze the register beeps and won't let them do anything until they put in an appropriate DOB, I believe it is their policy to proof everyone, even those who are obviously over 30, I've seen stooped over little old ladies with white (or blue) hair and wrinkles have to fish out their IDs for wine. But if buying booze at the gas station leads to drunken driving, then we're screwed, we have a liquor store that has a drive-thru window. I live in Rochester, Wegmans’ home town, it is definitely not a company-wide policy to scan your ID for booze, when they scan some booze the register beeps and won’t let them do anything until they put in an appropriate DOB, I believe it is their policy to proof everyone, even those who are obviously over 30, I’ve seen stooped over little old ladies with white (or blue) hair and wrinkles have to fish out their IDs for wine.

But if buying booze at the gas station leads to drunken driving, then we’re screwed, we have a liquor store that has a drive-thru window.

]]> By: Tidmarsh http://boingboing.net/2010/03/03/labeling-the-consume.html#comment-726624 Tidmarsh Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-726624 One store in my town occasionally asks to scan my ID for alcohol purchases. Thankfully it's the only store in town that does, as I refuse and spend my money elsewhere. According to http://www.turbulence.org/Works/swipe/barcode.html, it looks like there's plenty of useful information for an identity thief encoded in a driver's license. According to the state-by-state analysis, http://www.turbulence.org/Works/swipe/state_analysis.html , it looks like PA includes the SSN with all the other personal info on the card. Jackpot! I wonder if this policy might also be a useful way for enterprising teenagers to buy beer. My DL has lots of security features on the front, and none on the back. If the store just reads the bar code, why not photoshop a new back of the license with an older birthdate in the barcode? Stick it on the back and trim carefully--you'll have all of the security features on the front, and if you get caught with it, the police won't be able to read the changes to the bar code without scanning. One store in my town occasionally asks to scan my ID for alcohol purchases. Thankfully it’s the only store in town that does, as I refuse and spend my money elsewhere.

According to http://www.turbulence.org/Works/swipe/barcode.html, it looks like there’s plenty of useful information for an identity thief encoded in a driver’s license. According to the state-by-state analysis, http://www.turbulence.org/Works/swipe/state_analysis.html , it looks like PA includes the SSN with all the other personal info on the card. Jackpot!

I wonder if this policy might also be a useful way for enterprising teenagers to buy beer. My DL has lots of security features on the front, and none on the back. If the store just reads the bar code, why not photoshop a new back of the license with an older birthdate in the barcode? Stick it on the back and trim carefully–you’ll have all of the security features on the front, and if you get caught with it, the police won’t be able to read the changes to the bar code without scanning.

]]> By: Matt http://boingboing.net/2010/03/03/labeling-the-consume.html#comment-726626 Matt Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-726626 I moved to PA a few years ago, and have been frustrated by the alcohol laws ever since. There was a bill in the state senate a couple years ago that aimed to change the beer distribution laws. It disappeared, I believe, due to pressure applied by the beer distributors. Senator John Rafferty has created another bill with the same aims, but one major addition: he wants mandatory ID scanning for *all* beer sales. This is his concession to the "think of the children" opponents to sensible beer laws. To readers in PA: please write your senator and tell them to support this bill. Link to PDF of bill talking points: http://www.senatorrafferty.com/PDF/2010/BeerTalkingPoints.pdf Although I don't like the idea of stores data-mining from my ID, I am willing to deal with it in order to get these antiquated, backwards beer laws reformed. I moved to PA a few years ago, and have been frustrated by the alcohol laws ever since. There was a bill in the state senate a couple years ago that aimed to change the beer distribution laws. It disappeared, I believe, due to pressure applied by the beer distributors. Senator John Rafferty has created another bill with the same aims, but one major addition: he wants mandatory ID scanning for *all* beer sales. This is his concession to the “think of the children” opponents to sensible beer laws. To readers in PA: please write your senator and tell them to support this bill.

Link to PDF of bill talking points:
http://www.senatorrafferty.com/PDF/2010/BeerTalkingPoints.pdf

Although I don’t like the idea of stores data-mining from my ID, I am willing to deal with it in order to get these antiquated, backwards beer laws reformed.

]]> By: Obviously http://boingboing.net/2010/03/03/labeling-the-consume.html#comment-726887 Obviously Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-726887 Yeah well... we're the home of Yuengling Lager. So there. And don't you ever refer to Pennsylvania as "East Utah" ever again. We've got no trouble getting liquor. Just look at the Coal Region. But yes, the liquor laws are stupid, and the only reason there's dissent against loosening them is because the distributors will go out of business. It makes no difference to me really. It's not like alcohol is prohibited in anyway. As for the ID scans you also need them to get into certain casinos or for other age-verifications. Honestly, it doesn't concern me all that much. Yeah well… we’re the home of Yuengling Lager. So there.

And don’t you ever refer to Pennsylvania as “East Utah” ever again. We’ve got no trouble getting liquor. Just look at the Coal Region.

But yes, the liquor laws are stupid, and the only reason there’s dissent against loosening them is because the distributors will go out of business. It makes no difference to me really. It’s not like alcohol is prohibited in anyway.

As for the ID scans you also need them to get into certain casinos or for other age-verifications. Honestly, it doesn’t concern me all that much.

]]> By: Agies http://boingboing.net/2010/03/03/labeling-the-consume.html#comment-726632 Agies Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-726632 I'm not exactly sure what evils Giant Eagle and Wegmans will do with the data that they collect from driver's licences that they don't already do with the data from customer loyalty cards. I’m not exactly sure what evils Giant Eagle and Wegmans will do with the data that they collect from driver’s licences that they don’t already do with the data from customer loyalty cards.

]]> By: A Nonny Moose http://boingboing.net/2010/03/03/labeling-the-consume.html#comment-726901 A Nonny Moose Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-726901 Do you give them your real name and address when you fill out the loyalty card? I never do (most of the time they don't seem concerned about whether or not you even fill it out), and I toss the card and get a new one very once in awhile just for kicks. Being legally required to have my personal info tied to every purchase just doesn't sit right with me. Do you give them your real name and address when you fill out the loyalty card? I never do (most of the time they don’t seem concerned about whether or not you even fill it out), and I toss the card and get a new one very once in awhile just for kicks. Being legally required to have my personal info tied to every purchase just doesn’t sit right with me.

]]> By: PathogenAntifreeze http://boingboing.net/2010/03/03/labeling-the-consume.html#comment-726648 PathogenAntifreeze Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-726648 The whole time I was reading this I felt like I was reading about some third world country, or at least somewhere that was more ridiculous on the courting V For Vendetta scale than the US is at present... This is a state to which I will refrain from moving. Thank you for posting this Dr. Shaughnessy. The whole time I was reading this I felt like I was reading about some third world country, or at least somewhere that was more ridiculous on the courting V For Vendetta scale than the US is at present… This is a state to which I will refrain from moving. Thank you for posting this Dr. Shaughnessy.

]]> By: gollux http://boingboing.net/2010/03/03/labeling-the-consume.html#comment-726908 gollux Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-726908 They must be on to something there in Pennsylvania. It also explains why Oregon streets are littered with drunken snoring bodies starting about 10 feet from the entrance of any store or supermarket. And all the weaving cars that end up in the ditches within the first mile, driven by those more capable of throttling back their alcohol intake. We need some more draconian control on our beer and wine sales here or we won't be able to get through another day without falling into an alcoholic stupor. They must be on to something there in Pennsylvania. It also explains why Oregon streets are littered with drunken snoring bodies starting about 10 feet from the entrance of any store or supermarket. And all the weaving cars that end up in the ditches within the first mile, driven by those more capable of throttling back their alcohol intake. We need some more draconian control on our beer and wine sales here or we won’t be able to get through another day without falling into an alcoholic stupor.

]]> By: george57l http://boingboing.net/2010/03/03/labeling-the-consume.html#comment-726654 george57l Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-726654 <i>"First, I wouldn't take my kids to a liquor store with me. Having the liquor store come to me isn't in my kids' best interest either, I don't think. So I'll leave them home with my wife, but that means they don't get to go shopping and see how food is chosen and money is managed and all the other stuff you can learn there. <i>Second, for alcoholics and other substance addicts this has -got- to be a torment. Before, you had to avoid bars and liquor stores if you wanted to avoid temptation. Now you have to avoid grocery stores, too?"</i> Given the very reasonable rules re not abusing other commenters, I won't risk a blow-by-blow deconstruction of all the <b>fail</b> I find in that comment, however tempting it may be, in case I cross the line. (Dead certainty, I suspect.) So I'm going to say nothing more than: Firstly, WTF? And secondly, WTF? (And wish that all the UK families in TESCO of a Saturday had the same 'values' as this commenter, so that their pesky brats were all left at home for fear of being perverted by all the cost-price booze on view. Food shopping would be soooo much more pleasant!) I'm always amazed at puritanical, almost obsessive/fetishistic, US attitudes to booze, compared to attitudes to sex and violence. Of course, this is only in some quarters - 'cos I just remembered reading this 'booze and kids' story only a couple of days ago: http://www.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/03/02/brooklyn.babies.in.bars/index.html So let me get this right - in the US you cannot retail booze to adults for take-away consumption, without severe and inconvenient restrictions, cannot buy booze without an ID, cannot drink until 21 (?) but it's reasonable to protest if prevented from taking your toddler into a bar full of daytime drinkers? <b>Q:</b>Should bars that admit baby buggies be required to scan the ID of the baby? Discuss. ;-) “First, I wouldn’t take my kids to a liquor store with me. Having the liquor store come to me isn’t in my kids’ best interest either, I don’t think. So I’ll leave them home with my wife, but that means they don’t get to go shopping and see how food is chosen and money is managed and all the other stuff you can learn there.

Second, for alcoholics and other substance addicts this has -got- to be a torment. Before, you had to avoid bars and liquor stores if you wanted to avoid temptation. Now you have to avoid grocery stores, too?”

Given the very reasonable rules re not abusing other commenters, I won’t risk a blow-by-blow deconstruction of all the fail I find in that comment, however tempting it may be, in case I cross the line. (Dead certainty, I suspect.) So I’m going to say nothing more than: Firstly, WTF? And secondly, WTF?

(And wish that all the UK families in TESCO of a Saturday had the same ‘values’ as this commenter, so that their pesky brats were all left at home for fear of being perverted by all the cost-price booze on view. Food shopping would be soooo much more pleasant!)

I’m always amazed at puritanical, almost obsessive/fetishistic, US attitudes to booze, compared to attitudes to sex and violence. Of course, this is only in some quarters – ‘cos I just remembered reading this ‘booze and kids’ story only a couple of days ago:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/03/02/brooklyn.babies.in.bars/index.html

So let me get this right – in the US you cannot retail booze to adults for take-away consumption, without severe and inconvenient restrictions, cannot buy booze without an ID, cannot drink until 21 (?) but it’s reasonable to protest if prevented from taking your toddler into a bar full of daytime drinkers?

Q:Should bars that admit baby buggies be required to scan the ID of the baby? Discuss. ;-)

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/03/03/labeling-the-consume.html#comment-726910 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-726910 This reminds me of Chattanooga, Tennessee, where a few years ago I went into a wine store to buy some wine and when I asked about buying a corkscrew, I was told that the law did not allow them to sell corkscrews and wine at the same time. This is the same city that once fought over having alcoholic drinks served on a restaurant's outside terrace, claiming that the drinking glasses had to be opaque lest the youth of the city were tempted by the sight of people consuming alcoholic beverages. Crazy! This reminds me of Chattanooga, Tennessee, where a few years ago I went into a wine store to buy some wine and when I asked about buying a corkscrew, I was told that the law did not allow them to sell corkscrews and wine at the same time. This is the same city that once fought over having alcoholic drinks served on a restaurant’s outside terrace, claiming that the drinking glasses had to be opaque lest the youth of the city were tempted by the sight of people consuming alcoholic beverages.
Crazy!

]]> By: Halloween Jack http://boingboing.net/2010/03/03/labeling-the-consume.html#comment-726912 Halloween Jack Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-726912 Yeah, all sorts of places have weird liquor laws. In Ohio, the state has a monopoly on liquor sales; the county in Tennessee where Jack Daniel's is distilled is dry; &c. Illinois got mentioned in a This American Life episode (the one that talked about the informer at Archer Daniels Midland, the one who was played in the movie by Matt Damon) in which they talked about the state law that basically locks in the local liquor distributors by prohibiting stores from buying directly from alcoholic beverage producers. Yeah, all sorts of places have weird liquor laws. In Ohio, the state has a monopoly on liquor sales; the county in Tennessee where Jack Daniel’s is distilled is dry; &c. Illinois got mentioned in a This American Life episode (the one that talked about the informer at Archer Daniels Midland, the one who was played in the movie by Matt Damon) in which they talked about the state law that basically locks in the local liquor distributors by prohibiting stores from buying directly from alcoholic beverage producers.

]]> By: FruitSmack! http://boingboing.net/2010/03/03/labeling-the-consume.html#comment-726411 FruitSmack! Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-726411 I don't understand why they think the world will end in a drunkpocolypse if they allow grocery stores to sell beer and wine. Many other states already do so and they've not fallen to the hoards of marauding boozers. Sounds more like a strawman put up so the distributors stay the only game in town, with the side effect being the stupid privacy problems with scanning ID. I don’t understand why they think the world will end in a drunkpocolypse if they allow grocery stores to sell beer and wine. Many other states already do so and they’ve not fallen to the hoards of marauding boozers.

Sounds more like a strawman put up so the distributors stay the only game in town, with the side effect being the stupid privacy problems with scanning ID.

]]> By: No Imagination http://boingboing.net/2010/03/03/labeling-the-consume.html#comment-726418 No Imagination Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-726418 I lived in Pittsburgh for 10 years. The takeout price for six packs at a bar was not out of line for the price of a case at a distributor. Of course, that was in the 70's, so bars may have gotten greedier since then . I lived in Pittsburgh for 10 years. The takeout price for six packs at a bar was not out of line for the price of a case at a distributor. Of course, that was in the 70′s, so bars may have gotten greedier since then .

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