Afghanistan: Taliban chops off nose, ears of 19-year-old girl for "shaming" her in-laws

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60 Responses to “Afghanistan: Taliban chops off nose, ears of 19-year-old girl for "shaming" her in-laws”

  1. Mark Temporis says:

    While I agree with the “no slams agains muslims” policy, I do have to say that the fact that religious people can be cruel is proof that religion is useless.

    • Rostam says:

      Mark,
      Hospitals can kill people. Police can be corrupt. Teachers can be stupid. Medicine can kill you. All of these things are useless. Except when they aren’t.

  2. Anonymous says:

    Oh, for goodness sake. If the fact that religious people can be cruel is proof that religion is useless…then you can also prove that government, philosophy, and science are all useless as well.

  3. theLadyfingers says:

    And yet Paris Hilton lives.

    • Melanie says:

      “And yet Paris Hilton lives.”

      You sympathize (I presume) with one woman attacked for trying to live life as she wants to while thinking another woman who does so should not live? Rather interesting.

      You can have a open, tolerant and inclusive society, or you can have one that dictates who gets to participate according to belief system, moralities, cultural identity, personality, and so on. The picking and choosing of the latter undermines the ideals of the former.

      As much as I’m not fond of Ms. Hilton, I don’t want to be part of a society that wouldn’t have her as a member. Otherwise there is no equality. No liberty.

  4. Marsha Keeffer says:

    Women for Afghan Women is a wonderful group and we’ve donated to them for years. They’ve done educational programs and taught women to start small businesses – they do terrific work and I’m glad to see they’re helping Bibi heal and get help after such horrific abuse.

  5. Anonymous says:

    The Taliban is pure evil. PURE EVIL. Any sign of art, music,, intellectual growth, beauty, happiness…and it is something to be stamped out by them, an offense against them.

    I said so the summer before 9/11 when they were blowing up ancient Bhudda’s and making people paper over their windows and torturing people for singing songs.

    I say it now.

    It’s cultural, its religious, its WHATEVER. I don’t care how you get around to it but evil ought to be called out for what it is.

  6. Antinous / Moderator says:

    Notary Sojac,

    You keep saying the same thing. So I took out the extras. If you have a fresh point to make…

  7. Eseck says:

    My blood is boiling… the pleasure I would have to have those responsible privately presented to me is immeasurable… Sharp toys and it shall not be swift…

  8. Anonymous says:

    Patriarchy–male domination of society–is dangerous to public health everywhere–in Afghanistan, Israel, America, India, and spaces in between. In principle this tragic incident is no different than the social forces that produce the “pussy shrinking”, and breast enhancement industries in the United States together with the vast shelter networks for abused women in Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston, Washington, Seattle, New York, and Miami. Localizing misogyny does not help in understanding this universal malaise.

  9. Anonymous says:

    the picture describes a terrible problem of a very very sick society. religion plays one part.

    first – i do not have a solution to the problem. it took europe hundreds of years to emerge from the dark ages and even our society is far from equal.
    i guess one could have dropped all the money that has been spent on war in food, supplies, building material to begin with with better results than the war that is currently going on.

    i do not like the “time” header and its implications. it might as well have been “it happens despite the billions of dollars we spent on this war” or “this happens even though we are there” or “this happens in many more countries (genital mutilation in africa, child prostituion in asia,… loads of pictures that tear your heart to pieces. or would do so if they were shown or at least witnessed by someone from the west).
    it even happens to afghani women abroad. no war. civilized surrounding. police one phone call away.

    just a few weeks ago, i witnessed a trial of an afghan husband who killed his wife with multiple stab wounds in front of the three kids – for “disrespecting him”. for example using the phone without asking him first.
    when asked whether his wife was crying for mercy or had asked him to stop he replied “yes, but she did not say PLEASE”.

    this happened in peace times. no need to send any army to Offenbach, Germany.

    It IS a horrible picture. It IS a horrible fate this girl is facing. But does it necessarily mean this war is good?
    how would the headline have been (and the reaction here) if the girl had lost her beauty not by some crazed husband, but by some gun-happy helicopter, shooting a group of people in iraq? if tomorrow the times would say, there was a misunderstanding, the girl was even lucky only her nose was shot off, the guy next to her carrying a telephoto lens had his whole head blown off – what would be the reaction then, war-wise?

    BTW: the guy killing his wife got jail for life
    BTW2: i tried 50 times retrieving my password – i am usually registred as a user and forgot my password – anyone else has this problem? i have no intention to “hide” behind some anon.

  10. Sekonda says:

    Bastards.

  11. Zergonapal says:

    Religion is a balm for the weak of mind, they follow the leaders like sheep rather than think for themselves.
    I do not begrudge them their comforts, they can do as they please, but when they use it as a tool for justification of cruel acts that in my mind is a reason to take that tool away.
    However what was done to this this woman had little to do with religion, it was fueled by greed when her father sold her into slavery and it was fanned by malice when she was mutilated in the name Islam.
    If there was truly a god then the perpetrators of this act would be stuck done by his wrath, for surely such acts have done more damage to the faith than any anti-religious pogrom.
    Yet I am an atheist and instead I will echo the hope that justice will someday find these men and they will know great sorrow.

    • Antinous / Moderator says:

      There’s nothing in this story that says that her mutilation has anything to do with religion. From Wikipedia: “The Taliban’s extremely strict and anti-modern ideology has been described as an “innovative form of sharia combining Pashtun tribal codes…”. From the linked article: “Baad in Pashtunwali, the law of the Pashtuns, is a way to settle a dispute between rival families.”

      It might benefit victims of brutality for us to correctly identify the source of the problem instead of trying to use them as poster children for our own pet causes.

      • Phoenicks says:

        Thank you. Excellent point.

      • Dewi Morgan says:

        Thanks for that note about Baad and Pashtun tribal codes. Handy insight!

        My first instinct, on reading that article, was to think: I don’t understand why this kind of behaviour could be institutionalised. Clearly I don’t know enough about the culture that caused this type of law to be passed, and without understanding, I’ll be doomed to condemn them as monsters.

        But here’s the thing: I know that people are not monsters. I know that cultures are not monsters. Other than a very tiny minority of sociopaths, nobody sees themselves as evil. Not the judge who passed sentence on her, nor the person who carried out the sentence.

        People see themselves as on the side of right. THAT is why wars and conflicts are so intractable.

        So. I’m trying to understand.

        ==
        I’m imagining that I see a person’s reputation as the thing upon which his livelihood and wellbeing, and that of the family he supports, stands upon: their ability to eat depends on the trust the community has in their reputation.

        And brought before me is a girl who, we are told, wilfully and knowingly damaged the reputation of their father (whether this is running away from the father’s client, or walking hand in hand with a boy before marriage, as in another well-publicised case). She did this with her full wits about her. There were extenuating circumstances, but perhaps I am not allowed to take those into account: perhaps my law does not account for them. Perhaps I am required to stand by a simple law of eye for eye and tooth for tooth, regardless of extenuating circumstances.

        So, I look at the damage done. It is, I feel, severe. If I do not exact an equal penalty, I will be called weak, and so will the law I uphold. I know there are many others in the area in the same situation as the victim: tacitly condoning her behaviour could cause massive social upheaval.

        Perhaps I don’t like the law: but it is not a law I can change, it’s “God’s law”, and there is no way to campaign to have it changed through any legislature. As a believer in that God, I could no more advocate not following those laws, than I could advocate indulging in blasphemy against Him.

        And so I look at the possible penalties. Rather than anything crippling, a shaming cosmetic mutilation seems warranted for damage to reputation, so I put her down for two counts of that.
        ==

        Hrm. I can see how it might happen. I can’t *like* it, nor (as an agnostic) can I believe that religion is not the root of the problem here: if they didn’t believe their silly sky-phantasm made magic, irrevocable laws, then they wouldn’t need to enact them. But I can see how a society could develop where rigid adherence to the rules would become seen as the only guarantee of salvation and of maintaining the cultural values.

        Are we better in the West? By our own morality, yes. People are still having parts of their brains burnt out against their will through electroconvulsive therapy and drugs; but we don’t throw stones at them. We jail people for decades, great swathes of our population seeing the best years of their lives go by in striped sunlight, but we don’t chop off the hands of thieves. We shackle families and their descendants with debts they can never pay off when they become ill, but we don’t let them walk out into the desert to die. We prevent people from marrying unwilling ten year old girls, keeping them in filth, and abusing them, but…

        … no, the comparison doesn’t work there. My metaphor broke as I was writing it. Crap.

        tl;dr: I don’t think calling them monsters will fix anything. Understanding them might, but that’s a lot harder than I thought it’d be, and I can’t do it.

  12. floraldeoderant says:

    This tragedy happened in the way all tragedies tend to: People lose perspective and horror ensues. Sickening.

    On a side note, Boingboing is a Midas-maker. Like an accidentally cranky dungeon master who drops a metric ton of gold on the players, Xeni posted this and womenforafghanwomen went down. :( Someone need to design a better internet funnel/qeueing system so that worthy causes don’t get flooded out beyond max capacity.

  13. benher says:

    Ugh. Poor girl.

    There’s so much to say and yet so little.

  14. dainel says:

    Xeni, please fix the header and stop slandering the Taliban for no reason. I dislike them as much as you do, but there’s no need to make things up. They do plenty of awful things for real.

    Please read the linked article http://www.womenforafghanwomen.org/front_lines.php

    It says her husband did it. He’d been abusing her. She ran off, and the neighbour helped her to the police. Who unfortunately put her in jail until her father came to get her. He then gave her back to her husband! Who promptly cut off her nose and ears. And then left her to die in the mountains.

    It does say she wants to charge her husband, but he’s unreachable because he is a Talib in Uruzgan. It does not say whether this is because Uruzgan is under Taliban control, or if the husband is a high ranking Taliban commander. There’s no mention of the Taliban approving of what the husband did.

    • Dewi Morgan says:

      Thanks Daniel. That version of the story makes a lot more sense than it being a sentence imposed by a judge and carried out officially.

      Both men and women are abused in this specific way in Afghanistan. A man had it done to him (this time, unquestionably by Taliban supporters for political reasons) because he voted: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/08/31/barbaric-mutilation-man-has-nose-and-ears-cut-off-by-taliban-for-voting-in-afghanistan-elections-115875-21637997/

      There is a significant difference though, on both sides of the culture gap: this woman got no support from her community for recovering, while the man did get what minimal medical support they had available (nothing like counselling or plastic surgery, far as I can tell). On the other hand, the woman gets full medical and mental from the West, is being flown to the US, gets offers from plastic surgeons to treat her for free, a “post-operative support structure”, etc. However, the man got no support from the West: not even basic medicine.

      Is this a gender thing? I dunno. But we have a “WomenForWomen” group, but no “MenForMen” group; we have “women’s shelters” but no “men’s shelters”; we oppose FGM but promote circumcision; we are shocked at female mutilation but see male mutilation as just a hardship for them to endure, or even as funny Bobbittry.

      Obviously these are social comparisons, which can never accurately compare like with like. But I think they show our society’s still a bit of a mishmash of misandry and misogyny, and we haven’t fully ironed out the kinks in equality yet (and might never do so, as long as we still think gender is meaningful). They also show that their society is where ours used to be: strongly misogynist.

  15. donaldrburleson says:

    This outrageously disgusting mutilation of an innocent young woman is what you get with religious belief systems, which are responsible 100 percent, let’s not pretend otherwise. I am very proud to be an atheist. In a godless world such things would not happen, or at least would be much, much harder to explain away.

  16. _OM_ says:

    Yet more proof that the first thing we should do whenever we come across these Taliban bastards is put them out of our collective misery with a bullet between the eyes.

    “It might benefit victims of brutality for us to correctly identify the source of the problem instead of trying to use them as poster children for our own pet causes.”

    …We already know the cause of their problem, son. It’s a bunch of religious whackjobs using God as means to place themselves into a position of power and control over their own people for the sole purpose of promoting a sick and all but genocidal agenda. No Supreme Deity worth worshiping would demand the type of sacrifices these psychotic mullahs/ayatollahs/imams/mumbojumboists call for.

    Like it or not, the only surefire answer is to eliminate those in charge of such an asinine theocracy, because they’re clearly not acting in the best interests of anyone, especially their own followers.

    [cue peacenik flames]

  17. Antinous / Moderator says:

    I have a good idea where she can get some Living Related Donor tissue.

  18. General Specific says:

    Fucking vile human beings.

    • Xeni Jardin says:

      I would agree with you that the people who did this to her are vile human beings.

      A pre-emptive warning to others, however, that comments inciting hate against “Muslims” or “Islam” in this thread will be disemvoweled or removed. This is not a place for hate.

      Let’s all remember that the people who first came to this young woman’s aid were Muslim, many of the people who are helping her now are Muslim, and that the sickos in the Taliban do not equal all Muslims in Afghanistan or everywhere, any more than Christian sickos in the US who do awful things equal all Christians everywhere.

      • Anonymous says:

        Xeni, thank you for the wisdom in your reply. I, like others, was reacting with anger and hate about this incident. Your reminder helped broaden my perspective to a more humane outlook.

        I hope there is some way to replace the attitudes that allow such cruelty towards women and children… or anyone.

      • ab3a says:

        With due respect, Xeni, you owe it to yourself to actually spend time reading the Koran as it is interpreted by Fundamentalist Islamic adherents. I have no problem with an interpretive stance on the Koran or the Hadith, any more than I have a problem with an interpretive stance on reading the Hebrew Bible.

        However, the Taliban’s Fundamentalist view on these texts seems utterly barbaric even by seventh century standards. I have no hatred for those who believe this way. Only pity.

        • Anonymous says:

          Your comment is certainly commentilicious, but what does it have to do with Xeni’s comment?

        • johnnyaction says:

          Fundamentalist reading of the Bible esp. old testament and using that as a framework for living also results in vile human behavior.

          • rebdav says:

            Unfortunately the some of the vilest behavior is denigrating the religion of another, Judaism, through the lens of the predominant and oppositional replacement theology religion, Christianity. A decent percentage of the Christian bible bonus material discusses how the Jewish text is mean hard law and how the Christians bring love and forgiveness to the world. If you have never met an Orthodox Jew and spent a few days in such a community please take your hate elsewhere. Please do not assume you understand Judaism by lunch table talk based on what someone remembers from a Christian Sunday school lesson based on a terrible English translation of the Hebrew text.

            I have met and been friends with fundamental Muslims. I do not agree with their desire to see a worldwide caliphate but while they may disagree with my view of a world of free choice even they are horrified by the violence in these back mountain Taliban enclaves.

          • dculberson says:

            You do know that not only Judaism has the Old Testament in their bible, right? I think it’s likely that JohnnyAction was referring to fundamentalist Christians in his post. I.e. Phelps with his “God Hates Fags” and “Thank God For Dead Soldiers” signs.

  19. PathogenAntifreeze says:

    In the mid-late ’90s, I remember reading articles about the Taliban’s rule of Afghanistan. Often the article would be about a young woman being executed for being out without male family escort, or for driving, etc… I felt at the time that if the US military were to be deployed to various spots around the planet for idealistic missions, taking out the Taliban would be the best such mission imaginable.

    After 9/11, I was *pleased* when Bush announced his intention to do exactly that. I felt it should have been a lot sooner, but better late than never. Unfortunately, he decided to go play games with peoples’ lives and our economy by adventuring in Iraq before finishing the job in Afghanistan, and the Taliban crept back into areas of control.

    We’ve had a new president for over a year now (who campaigned on a promise to refocus on Afghanistan and finish the job), and we still have this huge and expensive military force deployed over there… *WHY* do the Taliban still have a foothold?

    • Brainspore says:

      We’ve had a new president for over a year now (who campaigned on a promise to refocus on Afghanistan and finish the job), and we still have this huge and expensive military force deployed over there… *WHY* do the Taliban still have a foothold?

      Perhaps the Taliban are part of a problem that does not have a military solution.

    • Anonymous says:

      The Taliban and the Iraqi insurgents have a foothold for the same reason Americans would have a foothold if it was invaded by a foreign force; you know your own country like the back of your own hand, and its not easy to get about if you know nothing about it. It’s ironic that American’s often scratch their heads at their stalemate in these places when their own history shows similar elements such as guerrilla warfare when they fought the British for their independence. Although America’s heart is in the right place, its head is in the clouds tactically, and its feet are currently on a landmine. And now they want to send in robots to fight these wars. the US Military was already 50 years more advanced than the Taliban, but its now face-planting into diminishing returns on technology.

  20. Boondocker says:

    This is just incomprehensible.

  21. arikol says:

    I’ve only known three moslems personally, all are/were good people who look at this disgusting treatment of a human being as being monstrous and very un-moslem. This does not fit in with their religion.

    Sadly, evil as the Taliban seem (and let’s remember that the US government originally supported the Taliban), the current rulers are little better and seem to do nothing to stop these atrocities.

    And again, this is not a moslem problem, this is a human problem. Evil indoctrinating use of violent old texts (qu’ran, bible) is nothing new and has been used by those who want absolute power through the ages. It’s just that the west, and the more civilized parts of the moslem world stopped doing that a while back. We recognized that mixing worldly power and divine thingumabobbies is a bad idea and stopped using religious courts. We’ve done pretty badly ourselves (inquisition springs to mind) but have learned from our experiences.

    Of course we want everyone else to learn from our experiences, but it doesn’t work like that. We can try to accelerate their learning, but that’s all.

  22. ab3a says:

    Sheltered as we are; in our cocoon of laws, education, and civility; we tend to forget the barbarism of earlier cultures. Don’t let revisionist historians or anthropologists fool you. There are some evil cultures out there that truly should not be allowed to continue in this day and age.

    This is what is wrong with moral relativism. In our western culture, women have fought for centuries for better rights, protections, and opportunities. To turn around and then say that there is nothing wrong with a society that enforces or condones a Burka is to deny everything your mother, grandmothers and great grandmothers fought for.

    As a father of two daughters, I can only say this is utterly depraved and evil behavior. This is made worse by a society that accepts such behavior as part of living. We should not contribute to this depravity by condoning it in any way. Those who fail to see anything wrong with the way Fundamentalist Islam treats women are effectively aiding and abetting the downfall of civilization.

    This is pretty nearly as evil and as wrong as anything gets. Say a prayer, not for Bibi Aisha, for she is strong and recovering; say a prayer instead for everyone who supported her mutilation: That they may learn the depravity of what they have done.

    • Anonymous says:

      @ab3a The Taliban are not, as you seem to suggest, an “earlier culture” but in fact a social-religious ideology that is just as modern as, say, feminism or American evangelicalism. But that isn’t my point, which is this: Neither anthropology nor historiography try to “fool” anyone into accepting “moral relativism,” as you say-but only, broadly, to show that human behavior and culture takes many forms and observation and description cannot make normative claims if it is to attain to science.
      Ironically, it is the religious worldview that deals in absolutes of custom-which in one place demands a nose, in the other an eye, but everywhere demands retribution.

  23. wylkyn says:

    In other news, a Lebanese religious pilgrim has recently been sentenced to death in Saudi Arabia for being a sorcerer. Apparently he used to host a TV show where he predicted the future. He was traveling to SA on a pilgrimage when he was captured and condemned to death Amnesty International is currently trying to get King Abdullah to stop the execution and return the man to his family.

    See, this is where the make-believe goes bad.

  24. Bucket says:

    The third link is broken, but it probably doesn’t matter much as the womenforafghanwomen.org site appears to have blown a gasket.

  25. stumo says:

    “some people may find the full image of her brutally disfigured face disturbing”

    To be honest, I hope anyone would find it disturbing.

    Sadly, it seems, those who did it don’t find it disturbing enough. It’s worrying what we as a species are capable of.

  26. LiudvikasT says:

    That’s what happens when religion is taken seriously. Christianity or any other religion is as bad, it just that followers are no longer as true to the evil of religion.
    The only thing I can’t understand is why after hundreds years of moral development, our society fails to prevent that barbarism in those countries where that kind of barbarism is common.

  27. Terry says:

    Let’s start by saying that this poor girl’s treatment – especially at the hands of her family – was monstrous. That said, can we all stop judging another culture based upon her treatment? What happened to this girl was the actions of individuals, NOT a culture or a religion (speaking of which, shall we talk about the ritual mutilation of male infants’ genitalia? How about ritualized, symbolic cannibalism?). Islam does not condone this sort of behavior, nor do the overwhelming majority of Muslim cultures.

    Horrible, despicable things were done to this girl. By people. People who should be held responsible for their behavior, and who should not try to justify it by applying cultural or religious filters to it.

    In the end, all cultures are heinous if taken to an extreme. Even ours.

    • EvilSpirit says:

      “Ritualized, symbolic cannibalism?” Really?? *That’s* your moral equivalent here? Selling little girls (just to restrict it to the offense that does seem to be part of the local culture) is *just* like eating crackers that you think are magically Jesus??

      I’ll grant you the point on infant genital mutilation, though.

    • Antinous / Moderator says:

      Sheikh Tantawi, the Grand Imam of al-Azhar mosque and head of al-Azhar University, was until he died a week ago, the foremost cleric in Sunni Islam. He barred students from wearing the niqab at university, condemned suicide attacks and declared that, “Extremism is the enemy of Islam. Whereas, jihad is allowed in Islam to defend one’s land, to help the oppressed. The difference between jihad in Islam and extremism is like the earth and the sky.”

      As citizens of the US or UK, would we want to be defined by the hillbillies in Deliverance or the villagers of Royston Vasey?

      • sequential says:

        That may be true for that particular mosque and that particular spiritual leader, but what about the thousands of madrassas in Pakistan and the Arab middle east where it’s often hard for madrassa students to pick up a science, mathematics or geography textbook published in the last 40 years?

        Also, although Islamic spiritual leaders have indeed denounced terrorism and associated acts of violence, Islam as a religion has not been through the Reformation experienced by other large monotheistic faiths (Christianity and Judaism), nor has Islam as a political movement been through the Enlightenment experienced in the West.

        In many cases, teachers in a large number of madrassas still view Islam as the youngest and most supreme of the three (Islam, Chistianity, Judaism) main monotheistic faiths. Coupled with the absence of economic opportunity, the rule of law, and representative government in many Islamic states, there’s a reason why many Islamists lash out.

      • Terry says:

        Exactly! The word ‘Jihad’ appears in the Koran precisely 4 times. In each case, it describes a struggle, specifically a spiritual one. Only extremists use ‘Jihad’ to describe a holy war.

  28. Anonymous says:

    I had a professor at Berkeley who was fond of saying that one man’s Taliban was another man’s freedom fighter. Somehow that just doesn’t seem right at all… These people aren’t freedom fighters, they are extreme right wing fascists.

  29. Anonymous says:

    By No Means is this An Agreement with this Practice, or Justification or otherwise, just a relay of an experience in the 70′s. Back then, traveling in Afghanistan and “north west” Pakistan, I saw more than a few such women. I was told that this had been done for a thousand years.

  30. JohnCJ says:

    Having lived in Afghanistan for over a year, I can tell you that Islam there is quite different than Islam in more civilized places like Turkey. The Afghanis are a primitive, tribal people who are culturally barely out of the stone age. This may sound “hateful” and un-PC, but it’s the sad truth. If not for the influx of technology from one of the long list of invaders, they would be a thousand years behind us. Now, of course they have AK47s, but they have no moral development past early agrarian tribesmen.

    • Terry says:

      The Haudenosaunee put together their Great Law centuries ago. The Great Law was so enlightened and forward-thinking that many have argued that the founding fathers of the United States of America freely ‘borrowed’ from the Great Law while writing the US Constitution.

      The Haudenosaunee are also known as the six nations. Specifically the Oneida, Mohawk, Cayuga, Onondaga, Seneca and Tuscarora. They are also referred to as The Iroquois League or The Iroquois Confederacy.

      And at the time they developed the Great Law, they were agrarian tribesmen.

    • Sephirajo says:

      What does their level of development on a technology level have to do with their MORAL development. Morals have nothing to do with technology.

      Also, as per fundamentalism in Islam and it’s treatment of women, it’s horrible, but it’s not the WHOLE of Islam. It should be noted that in a pure fundamentalist view of Christianity a woman could be stoned to death for just about anything. Read the bible sometime. I mean, REALLY read it.

  31. Anonymous says:

    I knew it, so typical.
    The minute something happens around the world muslims become the first to blame. I suggest for all you haters to go read the “original” news. That’s the only thing ill say.

  32. Antinous / Moderator says:

    ab3a,

    You made your point. No need to repeat it.

  33. seanmichaelragan says:

    Maybe it’s not the most productive response, and as much as I try to live up to the example of men like Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr., and the Dalai Lama in my own life, and as much as I believe in the whole an-eye-for-an-eye-makes-the-whole-world-blind thing, here’s what I think we should do about that: Slaughter them like fucking pigs.

    Which would suggest that I think pigs should be slaughtered, and I don’t. But these guys? Yeah. Twice. And it’s not an Islam thing. Just a bunch of…well, there’s not really a hard enough word, is there?…who mutilated a young girl.

    Also, you know, we should raise a bunch of money and hire the world’s greatest plastic surgeon to do what he or she can for her.

  34. Notary Sojac says:

    Xeni:

    You are of course correct in discouraging …comments inciting hate against “Muslims” or “Islam”…

    I agree with that sentiment, inasmuch as my view is that I respect Islam as a faith while remaining completely opposed to the concept of sharia in government.

    But it would have been nice of you to omit the obligatory Declaration of Moral Equivalency — “Christian sickos in the US who do awful things equal all Christians”. Unless you really think that, for example, American fundamentalists campaigning against gay marriage are just as bad as Iranian fundamentalists decapitating gays in the public square.

    • desiredusername says:

      @ Notary Sojac: Your full quote should have been “any more than Christian sickos in the US who do awful things equal all Christians everywhere” (emphasis mine). I don’t think Xeni said that campaigning “was just as bad” as decapitation. What she wrote is called an analogy not an equivalency. With an analogy the two things being compared can be relatively similar (literal analogy) or dissimilar except for some trait (figurative analogy). In neither case is there a claim to point for point equivalency. Rather good reading comprehension should allow you to extract the value that blaming all Muslims for this action is like blaming all Christians for the intolerance or irresponsibility exhibited by a few. However you are more interested in comparing the types of actions in question, than observing that the trait illustrated by the analogy is that of condemning a community for the actions of extremists within that community. The community could have just as well been dog breeders, math nerds, or star bellied sneetches, but it made sense to use another major religion as an analogy and it’s harder to find any case of Buddhist extremism. Hindu extremism might also be a good comparison since it has forced sati, the contemporary caste system, and riotous actions such as the Babri Mosque demolition. However, none of those things are point for point equivalent are they. Forced sati, may be worse, or better, than disfigurement of young women, depending upon your subjective opinion, but they are better understood as analogies since this “equivalency” comparison doesn’t have to be introduced.

      I hope this helps you with your feeling of being attacked.

  35. sequential says:

    Oh come on dude! Anyone who honestly believes the greedy infidel west is largely to blame for the dispicable actions of religious fundamentalists and *all* associated problems of failing or failed Islamic states seriously needs to get off their moral high horse. We’re not the ones running around cutting off ears and noses in the name of religion.

  36. Anonymous says:

    Sounds pretty much like a lot of conservative US religions; they just don’t have the guts to go all the way and live their commitment. :-)

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