Comments on: Correcting the ignorant UK Members of Parliament who "debated" the Digital Economy Bill http://boingboing.net/2010/04/08/correcting-the-ignor.html Brain candy for Happy Mutants Tue, 21 May 2013 16:09:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/04/08/correcting-the-ignor.html#comment-755980 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-755980 You! Give the governor a harumph! You better watch your ass. You! Give the governor a harumph!

You better watch your ass.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/04/08/correcting-the-ignor.html#comment-755984 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-755984 On a comcast cable network (and presumably similar ill-run excuses for networks) you can unplug your DOCSIS2-compliant cable modem and plug it back in at a different physical address and it will run just fine. The operations group at comcast should get a notification in their logs that you've migrated across segments (if you do - if you move within the same apartment complex, for example, you will likely remain in the same (heavily oversubscribed) segment) but they aren't likely to act on it. The cable modem hardware contains the address (like a NIC MAC, if you are ethernet savvy) that is used to gain access. This is why you can steal a cable modem from your neighbor and get his/her access. Of course, if you steal a cable modem and the owner reports the loss to the ISP, they can easily track down the physical location of the device. OK, if it's comcast they can with great difficulty track down the location, but you get my point. It's incredibly unlikely that a member of Parliament knew any of this. But I'm surprised you didn't, Cory! Are there no cable ISPs in the UK any more? All gone to das blinkenlights? On a comcast cable network (and presumably similar ill-run excuses for networks) you can unplug your DOCSIS2-compliant cable modem and plug it back in at a different physical address and it will run just fine.

The operations group at comcast should get a notification in their logs that you’ve migrated across segments (if you do – if you move within the same apartment complex, for example, you will likely remain in the same (heavily oversubscribed) segment) but they aren’t likely to act on it.

The cable modem hardware contains the address (like a NIC MAC, if you are ethernet savvy) that is used to gain access. This is why you can steal a cable modem from your neighbor and get his/her access.

Of course, if you steal a cable modem and the owner reports the loss to the ISP, they can easily track down the physical location of the device. OK, if it’s comcast they can with great difficulty track down the location, but you get my point.

It’s incredibly unlikely that a member of Parliament knew any of this. But I’m surprised you didn’t, Cory! Are there no cable ISPs in the UK any more? All gone to das blinkenlights?

]]> By: Laurel L. Russwurm http://boingboing.net/2010/04/08/correcting-the-ignor.html#comment-756528 Laurel L. Russwurm Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-756528 There is just so much wrong with the Digital Economy Bill. It doesn't directly harm me because I'm a Canadian. But the damage it does to the idea of democracy is incalculable, and after all, everything is connected. <a href="http://whoacanada.wordpress.com/2010/04/08/debill-bad4democracy/">Oh! Canada: DEBill... bad4democracy</a> And of course it is another step up from the DMCA toward ACTA. There is just so much wrong with the Digital Economy Bill.

It doesn’t directly harm me because I’m a Canadian. But the damage it does to the idea of democracy is incalculable, and after all, everything is connected.

Oh! Canada: DEBill… bad4democracy

And of course it is another step up from the DMCA toward ACTA.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/04/08/correcting-the-ignor.html#comment-756281 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-756281 I wrote post #40 before, but I'd like to rephrase: Assuming that ISPs can just switch off a person's internet for alleged illegal file sharing, it would be interesting to see what would happen if SPYWARE was successfully spread which did nothing more than download and distribute copyrighted materials. The average user's computer is infected with 28 Spyware programs, all able to send and receive information from the internet. So it would not be too far-fetched to think that one of these could transfer copyrighted material. The reason I bring up this point, is to those people who ask "I am liable if my roommate does it?" The truth is that as long as you have a computer that is connected to the internet you are liable. I wrote post #40 before, but I’d like to rephrase: Assuming that ISPs can just switch off a person’s internet for alleged illegal file sharing, it would be interesting to see what would happen if SPYWARE was successfully spread which did nothing more than download and distribute copyrighted materials.

The average user’s computer is infected with 28 Spyware programs, all able to send and receive information from the internet. So it would not be too far-fetched to think that one of these could transfer copyrighted material.

The reason I bring up this point, is to those people who ask “I am liable if my roommate does it?” The truth is that as long as you have a computer that is connected to the internet you are liable.

]]> By: shaunoneil http://boingboing.net/2010/04/08/correcting-the-ignor.html#comment-756540 shaunoneil Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-756540 To be fair, I've actually done this. We moved from one house to another, without remembering to inform the cable company. The previous tenant used the same cable provider, so we were physically connected already. And simply forgot. We were paying the bill, and receiving the service .. easy to forget that there's anything wrong there. A few months later, they came along the pulled the line, since there was no active account listed at this address. An Ohh moment. now that I think of it, I have no idea what address is attached to my 3g modem anymore .. To be fair, I’ve actually done this. We moved from one house to another, without remembering to inform the cable company. The previous tenant used the same cable provider, so we were physically connected already. And simply forgot.

We were paying the bill, and receiving the service .. easy to forget that there’s anything wrong there.

A few months later, they came along the pulled the line, since there was no active account listed at this address. An Ohh moment.

now that I think of it, I have no idea what address is attached to my 3g modem anymore ..

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/04/08/correcting-the-ignor.html#comment-755775 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-755775 With Dsl you just need the telco to activate a Dsl signal on the line and you can connect through your Isp without telling them your address. With Dsl you just need the telco to activate a Dsl signal on the line and you can connect through your Isp without telling them your address.

]]> By: watchout5 http://boingboing.net/2010/04/08/correcting-the-ignor.html#comment-755776 watchout5 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-755776 Maybe I don't get the slang, but I don't understand this. I've read it a few times, but I have no idea what he's or you's saying. Is the thought that since you can move physical locations the need to cancel your internet based on name is needed? Helps! Maybe I don’t get the slang, but I don’t understand this. I’ve read it a few times, but I have no idea what he’s or you’s saying. Is the thought that since you can move physical locations the need to cancel your internet based on name is needed? Helps!

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/04/08/correcting-the-ignor.html#comment-756036 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-756036 > Obviously Cory has decided to completely ignore the 4.9% of UK internet users who connect via dial-up and who can connect from anywhere they have a phone line. And not just dial-up users. I don't know about the UK but here in Canada, you can keep your phone number when you move if you are within the same exchange area (I did it last time I moved). So since I use an ISDN service (as do millions of other people), I could have continued to access my Internet account after moving even if I didn't inform the provider of my change of address. And if someone is also using electronic billing to pay their Internet bills, they may well not bother sending a change of address to the provider because they don't think it's necessary. > Obviously Cory has decided to completely ignore the 4.9% of UK internet users who connect via dial-up and who can connect from anywhere they have a phone line.

And not just dial-up users. I don’t know about the UK but here in Canada, you can keep your phone number when you move if you are within the same exchange area (I did it last time I moved). So since I use an ISDN service (as do millions of other people), I could have continued to access my Internet account after moving even if I didn’t inform the provider of my change of address. And if someone is also using electronic billing to pay their Internet bills, they may well not bother sending a change of address to the provider because they don’t think it’s necessary.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/04/08/correcting-the-ignor.html#comment-755781 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-755781 Cory, in fact Mark Todd was arguing that notifications are likely to be ineffective regardless of how they are issues. It was in response to Tom Watson's amendment to remove email as a method of notification. There is also the (completely ignored) situation of mobile broadband, which has no such physical ties to your home address. Cory, in fact Mark Todd was arguing that notifications are likely to be ineffective regardless of how they are issues. It was in response to Tom Watson’s amendment to remove email as a method of notification.

There is also the (completely ignored) situation of mobile broadband, which has no such physical ties to your home address.

]]> By: remmelt http://boingboing.net/2010/04/08/correcting-the-ignor.html#comment-755782 remmelt Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-755782 "In this metaphorical world that they have constructed, my hon. Friend Mr. Watson, who is in his place but not paying attention, is Luke Skywalker. He is the little guy, the plucky loner fighting the machine. Clay Shirky is Obi Wan Kenobi, the wise, broad, almost mystical guru figure. [etc]" Therefore, you must acquit. “In this metaphorical world that they have constructed, my hon. Friend Mr. Watson, who is in his place but not paying attention, is Luke Skywalker. He is the little guy, the plucky loner fighting the machine. Clay Shirky is Obi Wan Kenobi, the wise, broad, almost mystical guru figure. [etc]”

Therefore, you must acquit.

]]> By: paulbradshaw http://boingboing.net/2010/04/08/correcting-the-ignor.html#comment-755786 paulbradshaw Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-755786 The quote above, watchout5, was with regard to the part of the debate where they were talking about whether warnings should be sent by email or post. Tom Watson was pointing out that many emails will go unread; the MP above was pointing out that letters may go to an old address. To be fair, you could buy a 3G-based wifi router and change address? The quote above, watchout5, was with regard to the part of the debate where they were talking about whether warnings should be sent by email or post. Tom Watson was pointing out that many emails will go unread; the MP above was pointing out that letters may go to an old address. To be fair, you could buy a 3G-based wifi router and change address?

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/04/08/correcting-the-ignor.html#comment-755787 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-755787 Maybe he's still on dialup? Maybe he’s still on dialup?

]]> By: Yamara http://boingboing.net/2010/04/08/correcting-the-ignor.html#comment-756043 Yamara Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-756043 As I posted last month... "This is all a grand <b>conversation</b>, and aggrieved 'rightsholders' are going to have to answer this question: <i>Why should anyone else have to pay to hear what you have to say?</i>" It's obvious that the only reason they can ever come up with is, "It's the law. And if it wasn't, it is now." But laws that are disobeyed by all--or even a wide majority--as a natural consequence of human interaction erodes respect for the Law as a whole. This is untenable for any civilisation, and its unforgivable that over-budget storytellers and silk-wearing buskers have led this Parliament of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pied_Piper_of_Hamelin">Hamelin</a> to buy into this self-destruction. Britons, welcome to the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution">Eighteenth Amendment to the US Constitution</a>. Unless you can by some miracle get the Lords or Liz to stop it, get used to a steady hypocritical stream of the great and the powerful shouting at you: <b>T E M P E R A N C E !</b> As I posted last month…

“This is all a grand conversation, and aggrieved ‘rightsholders’ are going to have to answer this question:

Why should anyone else have to pay
to hear what you have to say?”

It’s obvious that the only reason they can ever come up with is, “It’s the law. And if it wasn’t, it is now.”

But laws that are disobeyed by all–or even a wide majority–as a natural consequence of human interaction erodes respect for the Law as a whole. This is untenable for any civilisation, and its unforgivable that over-budget storytellers and silk-wearing buskers have led this Parliament of Hamelin to buy into this self-destruction.

Britons, welcome to the Eighteenth Amendment to the US Constitution. Unless you can by some miracle get the Lords or Liz to stop it, get used to a steady hypocritical stream of the great and the powerful shouting at you:

T E M P E R A N C E !

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/04/08/correcting-the-ignor.html#comment-755789 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-755789 i thought the same thing when mark todd said that, but immediately afterwards i realised its quite common nowadays for people to use a broadband dongle.. especially the more transient students this criminal bill is targeting. the point stands though, I spent most of the debate wishing i could transport myself there and tell them exactly what it was they were debating. i thought the same thing when mark todd said that, but immediately afterwards i realised its quite common nowadays for people to use a broadband dongle.. especially the more transient students this criminal bill is targeting.
the point stands though, I spent most of the debate wishing i could transport myself there and tell them exactly what it was they were debating.

]]> By: DanielZKlein http://boingboing.net/2010/04/08/correcting-the-ignor.html#comment-755792 DanielZKlein Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-755792 He... didn't really say that, did he? That's... wow. One of two things: either ignorance of such epic proportions that I wonder how the man can even function in the 21st century or dedicating 1% of his brain cycles to this discussion while using the other 9% (REMEMBER WE ONLY USE TEN!!!) (sorry the stupid is infectious) while using the other 99% to, I don't know, play Farmville on his iPhone or Pocket Billiard on his iCock. Seriously, wow. He… didn’t really say that, did he? That’s… wow. One of two things: either ignorance of such epic proportions that I wonder how the man can even function in the 21st century or dedicating 1% of his brain cycles to this discussion while using the other 9% (REMEMBER WE ONLY USE TEN!!!) (sorry the stupid is infectious) while using the other 99% to, I don’t know, play Farmville on his iPhone or Pocket Billiard on his iCock.

Seriously, wow.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/04/08/correcting-the-ignor.html#comment-755793 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-755793 also, just for the record, mark todd voted against. http://bit.ly/aR533Q also, just for the record, mark todd voted against.
http://bit.ly/aR533Q

]]> By: The Mad Hatter http://boingboing.net/2010/04/08/correcting-the-ignor.html#comment-755802 The Mad Hatter Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-755802 Politicians and lawyers often don't understand technology. Its not that they are stupid, its that they don't have the background. This is why you have to push. Some industry type shows up with a lot of graphs and charts, and yes, they are probably going to believe him/her, after all, when you lobby the government, you send your best person, with as much backup as possible, and you don't mention anything that detracts from what you want done. So you have to push, and keep on pushing. I've been doing that in Canada with a series of articles which I am filing with the government and the opposition parties: http://madhatter.ca/2010/04/06/james-gannon-presentation-copyright-viewed-by-a-lawyer-correct-legally-but-wrong-part-1/ http://madhatter.ca/2010/04/07/james-gannon-presentation-copyright-viewed-by-a-lawyer-correct-legally-but-wrong-part-2/ http://madhatter.ca/2010/04/08/james-gannon-presentation-%E2%80%93-copyright-viewed-by-a-lawyer-%E2%80%93-correct-legally-but-wrong-%E2%80%93-part-3/ You have to keep in pushing, and pushing. It may take a while for the politicians to understand what you are saying, don't forget that what they've been told by the 'content distributors' is what they heard first, and it will take time persuade the politicians that it is wrong. Wayne Politicians and lawyers often don’t understand technology. Its not that they are stupid, its that they don’t have the background. This is why you have to push. Some industry type shows up with a lot of graphs and charts, and yes, they are probably going to believe him/her, after all, when you lobby the government, you send your best person, with as much backup as possible, and you don’t mention anything that detracts from what you want done.

So you have to push, and keep on pushing. I’ve been doing that in Canada with a series of articles which I am filing with the government and the opposition parties:

http://madhatter.ca/2010/04/06/james-gannon-presentation-copyright-viewed-by-a-lawyer-correct-legally-but-wrong-part-1/

http://madhatter.ca/2010/04/07/james-gannon-presentation-copyright-viewed-by-a-lawyer-correct-legally-but-wrong-part-2/

http://madhatter.ca/2010/04/08/james-gannon-presentation-%E2%80%93-copyright-viewed-by-a-lawyer-%E2%80%93-correct-legally-but-wrong-%E2%80%93-part-3/

You have to keep in pushing, and pushing. It may take a while for the politicians to understand what you are saying, don’t forget that what they’ve been told by the ‘content distributors’ is what they heard first, and it will take time persuade the politicians that it is wrong.

Wayne

]]> By: ADavies http://boingboing.net/2010/04/08/correcting-the-ignor.html#comment-755806 ADavies Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-755806 Dear honerable friend, If we post an annotation, do we have to use the same kind of silly talk as the politicians? Hmph, hmph, hmph, hmph Dear honerable friend,

If we post an annotation, do we have to use the same kind of silly talk as the politicians?

Hmph, hmph, hmph, hmph

]]> By: elguapostrikes http://boingboing.net/2010/04/08/correcting-the-ignor.html#comment-755812 elguapostrikes Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-755812 Took me a minute to get the 'honorable' title- I kept thinking I was back in Baltimore, hon. Took me a minute to get the ‘honorable’ title- I kept thinking I was back in Baltimore, hon.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/04/08/correcting-the-ignor.html#comment-755814 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-755814 Are you sure he didn't mean that the new tenant at your old address could be doing the "bad stuff", but the ISP still thinks you live there? Are you sure he didn’t mean that the new tenant at your old address could be doing the “bad stuff”, but the ISP still thinks you live there?

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/04/08/correcting-the-ignor.html#comment-755818 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-755818 I'm sorry, what part of this are you guys not getting? Go re-read Lessig's observations. The problem is not stupidity, it's corruption. It's also not (often) the "here's a big bag of loot, vote this way" corruption, but a more systemic problem of the relationship between money on politics. It would not help if the stuffed suits in Parliament/Congress/whatever understood the issues in detail. They are still beholden to interests that have made their investments and are now seeing the returns. The internet developed so fast that it ran ahead of the instruments of state and corporate control. Those are now re-asserting themselves. I’m sorry, what part of this are you guys not getting? Go re-read Lessig’s observations. The problem is not stupidity, it’s corruption. It’s also not (often) the “here’s a big bag of loot, vote this way” corruption, but a more systemic problem of the relationship between money on politics.

It would not help if the stuffed suits in Parliament/Congress/whatever understood the issues in detail. They are still beholden to interests that have made their investments and are now seeing the returns.

The internet developed so fast that it ran ahead of the instruments of state and corporate control. Those are now re-asserting themselves.

]]> By: t1wl3t http://boingboing.net/2010/04/08/correcting-the-ignor.html#comment-755822 t1wl3t Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-755822 signed up with a vpn, since your first article. signed up with a vpn, since your first article.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/04/08/correcting-the-ignor.html#comment-755825 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-755825 Yes, you are correct: you have no idea. All broadband contracts (other than mobile, but that's a different kettle of fish) relate to a physical connection that ends with a box on the wall that you plug in to. Yes, you are correct: you have no idea.

All broadband contracts (other than mobile, but that’s a different kettle of fish) relate to a physical connection that ends with a box on the wall that you plug in to.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/04/08/correcting-the-ignor.html#comment-755826 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-755826 Getting to work on this! Getting to work on this!

]]> By: octopod http://boingboing.net/2010/04/08/correcting-the-ignor.html#comment-755843 octopod Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-755843 au contraire, I think it's pretty obvious from the more reasoned commentary at tc, ars, or even el reg, that the freetard movement seriously needs to rethink the way it approaches making it's case. like, explain what the problems are instead of creating strawmen. a more reasoned approach seems to have worked to remove clause 43. moving forward, perhaps there's a lesson in that. au contraire, I think it’s pretty obvious from the more reasoned commentary at tc, ars, or even el reg, that the freetard movement seriously needs to rethink the way it approaches making it’s case. like, explain what the problems are instead of creating strawmen.

a more reasoned approach seems to have worked to remove clause 43.

moving forward, perhaps there’s a lesson in that.

]]> By: bardfinn http://boingboing.net/2010/04/08/correcting-the-ignor.html#comment-755848 bardfinn Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-755848 Cory - The quote from Mark Todd may have been in the context of a subscriber to a wireless ISP. That said, a group of citizens should band together to determine whether these MP's are reading copyrighted bedtime stories to their children over the phone, and if so, take appropriate now-legal steps to have the MP's wireless internet service (their mobile phones) cut off without trial or recourse to appeal. Perhaps the MP's are receiving pirated ring tones from their family or employees via MMS. What are they doing with their work computers? Perhaps there is no distinction in the bill between cutting off an entire home from the internet for the copyright sins of a single unknown individual allegedly operating from a given IP address, and cutting off an entire government department for the copyright sins of a single unknown individual ... Cory –

The quote from Mark Todd may have been in the context of a subscriber to a wireless ISP.

That said, a group of citizens should band together to determine whether these MP’s are reading copyrighted bedtime stories to their children over the phone, and if so, take appropriate now-legal steps to have the MP’s wireless internet service (their mobile phones) cut off without trial or recourse to appeal. Perhaps the MP’s are receiving pirated ring tones from their family or employees via MMS. What are they doing with their work computers? Perhaps there is no distinction in the bill between cutting off an entire home from the internet for the copyright sins of a single unknown individual allegedly operating from a given IP address, and cutting off an entire government department for the copyright sins of a single unknown individual …

]]> By: brianary http://boingboing.net/2010/04/08/correcting-the-ignor.html#comment-756108 brianary Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-756108 Isn't BoingBoing a media company? Couldn't someone from there send three copyright infringement notifications to each MPs ISP? There's only one way to show them. <strong><em>Show</em></strong> them. Isn’t BoingBoing a media company? Couldn’t someone from there send three copyright infringement notifications to each MPs ISP?

There’s only one way to show them. Show them.

]]> By: littlerunninggag http://boingboing.net/2010/04/08/correcting-the-ignor.html#comment-755872 littlerunninggag Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-755872 How does this work for people, like myself, who have tenants that live with them? If they steal music, my Internet is liable? How does this work for people, like myself, who have tenants that live with them? If they steal music, my Internet is liable?

]]> By: giryan http://boingboing.net/2010/04/08/correcting-the-ignor.html#comment-755874 giryan Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-755874 Just like to point out to everyone who has rolled over and given up that this is not law yet. It still has to be passed by the Lords, who could send it back to the Commons. Just like to point out to everyone who has rolled over and given up that this is not law yet.
It still has to be passed by the Lords, who could send it back to the Commons.

]]> By: jo3lr0ck5 http://boingboing.net/2010/04/08/correcting-the-ignor.html#comment-755880 jo3lr0ck5 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-755880 This is just joke people, if they ever do pass this don't you think that the people will find a way around it?? I don't believe the UK constituents are going to take this lying down, I have already heard that people are not going to even pay attention to this if it does come to pass. This is just joke people, if they ever do pass this don’t you think that the people will find a way around it??

I don’t believe the UK constituents are going to take this lying down, I have already heard that people are not going to even pay attention to this if it does come to pass.

]]>