What is so egregious about this new law is that it necessarily targets legal immigrants and American citizens as well. By requiring them, at the whim of law enforcement, to prove their citizenship, we are violating civil rights provided to them under the 4th Amendment. And that the legal citizens who will be targeted are, necessarily, Hispanic, makes this an issue of racial profiling.

I agree with you that we need to fix the problem of immigration. But I can’t agree with your claim that we need to violate the rights of Americans to do it.

It sounds like you do indeed consider illegal immigration to be a big problem. What I have never understood is why people consider it such a huge problem in the first place.

I am not ragging or trying to just flame you in any way, it’s a good faith question because I really just don’t get it.

To me, immigration has far more upside to the US than downside. I don’t buy the crime argument, since study after study shows immigrants do crimes at about the same rate as citizens (if you leave out the circular argument about being here illegally). They bring in either valuable skills or, yes, cheap labor that citizens don’t seem to want to do much anymore. As our population ages, which it will, immigration brings in young, productive people.

As far as sucking up resources, being productive, they contribute way more than they consume.
A friend of mine here (legally) from Canada has an idea. She thinks that all immigrants should hold a 1-week general strike next May Day – no work. Let’s see how the US economy likes that!

Culturally, I don’t really see the downside either. American culture has already changed again and again, both from within, but mainly from wave after wave of immigrants. What exactly are immigration opponents trying to prevent from happening culturally? So is change bad? Are you sad that we don’t live in a Puritan theocracy starving to death every winter? Doesn’t one of our greatest national symbols, the Statue of Liberty, explicitly invite the poor and unwashed to come to us??

Can you help clue me in as to why it’s such a big deal that we need things like fences, National Guard, ICE concentration camps, and Stalinesque laws to deal with it? Because otherwise I don’t get it. Yes, we need to control immigration and make sure they contribute taxes, etc. like everybody else is supposed to do, but why the big freakout? It certainly smells like racism.

There were plenty of first generation German immigrants that waved the German flag and didn’t speak English. Yet somehow the US survived and was stronger for their presence (and particularly for the presence of their children).

The simple fact is that this new law does give AZ police the authority to randomly stop anyone they want, under the guise of “reasonable suspicion”. Whether you believe this new authority will be abused is irrelevant — the possibility is there. And, despite your assertion that suspected behavior will be the mitigating factor, you can’t reasonably claim that anyone who is not Hispanic will be stopped for such suspicious behavior.

This may not be armband- and white sheet-wearing, overt bigotry, but a law that targets one segment of the population based on color of skin or country of origin is dictionary-definition racism. And that’s not how we do business here in the U.S.

As others have pointed out, police already had the power to check the immigration status of those under investigation of a crime. That you don’t seem troubled by the fact that, in casting this wider net, police may ensnare innocent Americans, is disappointing.

I believe the threshold for what constitutes a “lawful stop” is incredibly low.

I don’t believe that all immigration related concerns are founded on racial prejudice, but I do think a great deal of it is based on perceived problems rather than actual ones.

The argument that they’re doing jobs citizens “don’t want to do” kind of falls apart when we have as high an unemployment rate as we do. If my options were to be unemployed and starve or work as a janitor, gardener, etc, you bet I’d take that job.

Many of these comments aren’t distinguishing legal from illegal immigration; I don’t know how anyone could convincingly argue against legal immigration – we have a system set in place to handle legal immigration and immigrants, and a process to citizenship. The problem is that illegal immigrants bypass that system entirely – the most damage they do is to legal immigrants who are following the rules.

There is also the argument that we are perpetuating Mexico’s exploitation of their own citizens. As long as they know that their surplus population will continue to flow into the US, they can continue to disenfranchise their own people and delay reform.

Again, these are arguments I’ve heard against illegal immigration – I don’t feel that I personally have enough information to submit any of these as my own opinion, but these arguments are at least worth looking into. While there are undoubtedly some racists, I think it’s possible to be against illegal immigration for the reasons listed above and not for irrational race-based ones.

And it’s also possible to be against illegal immigration while also recognizing the humanity of illegal immigrants, recognizing that they’re stuck in a tough situation with few options- and this new Arizona law seems to ignore that fact. A good law would balance the good of the country and the good of helping individuals – while also not violating civil liberties.

> But you fail to state that all those previous immigrants, Mexicans included, all
> did what? They assimilated to the American ways and laws, therefore contributing
> to our society as AMERICANS. They did not flaunt there illegality and abuse the
> system while waving the flags of their “homeland”.

What? People waving flags of other countries? UNHEARD OF!

In about two weeks, my children, all born in the Good ol’ U.S.A, will be going to a Salute to Israel Day Parade. In that parade, they’ll be waving flags of Israel. Are they no longer U.S. citizens? Are they not assimilating? Are they destroying our country?

By the way, they’re marching with their Boy Scout troop.

Come down and see all the Irish flags being waved at the New York St. Patrick’s Day Parade. Come down to Little Italy and see all the Italian flags being waved around during their street fairs. Are these people unAmerican too? Are they “refusing to assimilate”?

Are you really upset because people are proud of their heritage and wave the flags of their old countries as part of the celebration of that heritage? I hope you aren’t from the South and see all those old Confederate banners. Talk about “not assimilating”. Heck, didn’t they fight a war against us? Or, is that particular one okay?

My grandmother came to this country and spoke Yiddish because they apparently didn’t speak English from where she came from in Russia. No one asked her if she “wanted to assimilate”. No one asked her if she was taking a job away from an American. No one asked her if she had a college degree. All they said was “You want a job? Here’s a job as a milliner.

Her daughter spoke English. Her daughter, my mother, went to school and got a college degree. Her daughter, my mother married a man whose grandfather came to the U.S. and never spoke a word of English.

They came from Germany and Russia. They came here because they were told in their country they weren’t Germans or Russians. They came here, and the minute they stepped on the shore, they became Americans. Poland disappeared from the world for over 200 years, yet people thought of themselves not as Russians, but Poles. Those very same people took one step on our shores, and they’re Americans. That’s the greatness of our country.

My Father-in-Law family lived in what is now Iraq for over 2000 years. Yet, in 1952, the Iraqi government didn’t think he was Iraqi. He came here, started a business and hired a whole bunch of people. He made sure his daughter, my wife, got an education he never had.

From those “foreigners” who are very proud of their heritage are three fine American boys. They’ve volunteered in the first aid squad. They’ve helped other children in school. They’ve collected food and clothing for those who are less fortunate. They’ve done well in school, never did drugs, and somehow managed not to fall into a life of crime. They are exemplary citizens and I think we should all be proud that we have such great Americans.

What are you so upset about? Why the ranting? People come here not speaking English? They may never learn English because it’s hard to learn a new language, but they make sure their children do. These people come here because they are willing to work. They start businesses, they hire other people. They build up our economy.

You apparently have never talked to someone who was an immigrant — “illegal” or not. They are the most patriotic Americans you’ll ever meet. They love this country. They love the fact that this country is giving them a chance to prove themselves. They want to become an American citizen just like you. They are teaching their children English. They are pushing their children through school. They want their children to live the American dream. They are Americans not by default, but by choice.

Yet, how can you be a proud American if you aren’t allowed to drive a car or get health insurance or hold a job? How can you send your kids to college, so they can be successful and pay taxes and help build this country up when you aren’t allowed to get student loans or attend a public college or in some states, graduate?

Yes, these people are changing America, but that’s the greatness of our country. We completely rebuild this country every 20 years. 225 years ago, this country was a gentocracy. You couldn’t vote if you didn’t have money, or were not a white male. When our founding fathers talked about protecting the minority, they were talking about protecting those with the money from those without. We had slavery. We were antibusiness because the ideal was to be a gentleman farmer with several dozen slaves who did the dirty work.

Yet, it changed. By the 1820s, almost all white males were allowed to vote much to the chagrin of the gentry who felt this ruined America. In the 1860s, we eliminated slavery over the objections of those who thought that people would forget “their place”. In the 1920s, we gave women the right to vote over the objections of those who felt that it would destroy the moral fabric of this country. In the 1960s, we extended equal rights to everyone over the objections of those who hated someone because they were different. None of this destroyed America. Instead, it made America greater and stronger.

We talk about original intentions with our Constitution. Did anyone of the people who signed that document intended that a Black man whose father was not a citizen of this country and whose wife is a decedent of slavery would be elected president?

I am sure if our founding fathers saw our country today, they’d be shocked. They never “intended” this. And, after that initial shock, they’d be proud of what this country has become. They always talked about America, that backwards, uncivilized land would someday become a beacon of light unto the world. And, now it is. Ask anyone in the streets of Africa or in the market stalls of Southeast Asia about America and they’ll all tell you how much it inspires them.

Every 20 years, we turn this country inside out. Today, we’re building a new foundation for the next generation. If someone wants to come here and help with that task, I’d say give them a shovel and a hearty welcome to their new home. They are, whether you like it or not, Americans.

anyone who thinks this is acceptable is nuts.

Actually, you are right. We don’t need all that stuff to deal with it. If we did two simple things, no one would have any reason to suggest anything that might smack of the NKVD.

First: if any employer is found to have employed anyone who is not either a US citizen or a legal alien, that employer will be fined $100,000 per illegal employee per year, or fraction of a year. No exceptions.

Second: return to the original intent of the Fourteenth Amendment. That is to say, you become a US citizen by birth only if at least one of your parents is a citizen on your birthday.

And as far as accusations of “racism” go, the word has been so cheapened by inappropriate use in the last thirty years that you may find that it no longer intimidates as it once did, even in those few cases where the term may still be vaild.

This puts law enforcement officers in a lose-lose position: If they ask a disproportionate number of legal Hispanic citizens and immigrants for proof of citizenship, they can be sued for civil rights violations. If they don’t ask for proof from a disproportionate number of Hispanic people, they can be sued by any member of the public who feels they aren’t doing their job.

If I was a police officer faced with this, the only way I’d see to avoid eventually getting sued would be to apply the law universally: Demand proof of citizenship from every person, at every stop, whether they’re brown, black, yellow or white.

As an Arizona resident, I’m hoping the law gets repealed. In the meantime, I’m tryin to spend my money, as much as I can, at Hispanic-owned businesses.

Ill Lich: Nailed it on the head, as usual. Sad that you have to even think it through for some folks.

Changes the whole tone. I agree we need to go after the employers of illegals, with a sledgehammer, rather than the illegals themselves.

When you lay down with dogs, son, you get up with fleas. If you don’t want to be labeled a racist stop talking like one.

You don’t need anti-immigration laws to keep people from smashing windows or sleeping on your lawn. But that’s exactly the bullshit every white racist spouts! You are actively identifying yourself as part of their group in other people’s minds, and you are effectively joining their ranks when you help these people by promoting their ideas and ideals.

You also said “We are coming to a head in some states and it’s going to get even uglier.”

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard this same line from the RaHoWa clowns. You are again self-identifying as a racist by using their threatening language. If we don’t hit them first brown people will rape our women and kill our babies, yawn, yawn, heard it before.

“Dupnik had harsh words for anyone who thinks SB 1070 will not lead to racial profiling. “If I tell my people to go out and look for A, B, and C, they’re going to do it. They’ll find some flimsy excuse like a tail light that’s not working as a basis for a stop, which is a bunch of baloney.“”

He thinks the law is “racist” and “disgusting” and says he won’t be enforcing it. But what does he know?