Comments on: FCC hands Hollywood the keys to your PC, home theater and future http://boingboing.net/2010/05/07/fcc-hands-hollywood.html Brain candy for Happy Mutants Sat, 25 May 2013 09:57:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: jo3lr0ck5 http://boingboing.net/2010/05/07/fcc-hands-hollywood.html#comment-783360 jo3lr0ck5 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-783360 I think this is good, you get to enjoy the movie from home and the content creators/providers protect their product/service...I don't see what the big problem is and I think this will help set more records as it catches on with the public. I think this is good, you get to enjoy the movie from home and the content creators/providers protect their product/service…I don’t see what the big problem is and I think this will help set more records as it catches on with the public.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/05/07/fcc-hands-hollywood.html#comment-782849 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-782849 @#93 - Perhaps you did not read into this the same way I did... See my post above - #91. It does not seem that open source software will avoid having to use locked down hardware. If there is something in the firmware of a device, us linux users are in the same boat as everyone else (not to mention issues developing, as always, to run on closed source hardware). Unless of course, you know how to run an x86 comparable system on an arduino ... @#93 – Perhaps you did not read into this the same way I did…
See my post above – #91.

It does not seem that open source software will avoid having to use locked down hardware. If there is something in the firmware of a device, us linux users are in the same boat as everyone else (not to mention issues developing, as always, to run on closed source hardware). Unless of course, you know how to run an x86 comparable system on an arduino …

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/05/07/fcc-hands-hollywood.html#comment-782851 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-782851 Now I feel ill. The good news: Someone hacked the TPM (Trusted Platform Module) chip recently... so if *that's* possible then anything can be hacked, hardware-wise. You just have to find someone who has the know-how and is willing to do it. And, the Moral: There is nothing built by Man that Man cannot take apart again. Now I feel ill.

The good news: Someone hacked the TPM (Trusted Platform Module) chip recently… so if *that’s* possible then anything can be hacked, hardware-wise. You just have to find someone who has the know-how and is willing to do it.

And, the Moral:

There is nothing built by Man
that Man cannot take apart again.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/05/07/fcc-hands-hollywood.html#comment-783112 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-783112 Keep your old hardware? Keep your old hardware?

]]> By: Xeno http://boingboing.net/2010/05/07/fcc-hands-hollywood.html#comment-782345 Xeno Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-782345 This is yet another reason to get your MythTV box up and running This is yet another reason to get your MythTV box up and running

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/05/07/fcc-hands-hollywood.html#comment-785172 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-785172 Good! Let them do their worst! The more they try to put people in a headlock, the more piracy there will be. And then they'll go sniveling to the gov again, that it's "ruining the business" as they usually do. Corporate welfare at its best. When they began playing this shell game with TV fifteen years ago, I just canceled my cable subscription and stopped watching the damn thing altogether, even broadcast TV. Also, I only go to second run theaters where a bucket of popcorn is still about $1.50. By the time the movie gets there, I know I won't be disappointed. What about the few really good shows like Lost or Carnivale? I rent the whole season at the video store for next to nothing and watch it all in one weekend with like minded friends. We have a ball and a lot of beer! I recently had to sit down and watch TV for a whole evening with a sick relative. It drove me bananas! No wonder she's sick! It was like watching broadcast from another planet. What little I managed to follow (I was totally disinterested in whatever they were excited about on screen) was so incredibly stupid and irritating that I thought there was something wrong with ME! I found out that I don't need to be brainwashed by TV every night, or listen only to the news they want me to know, or pay for stupid shows about whales I don't give a hoot about (No! I don't care at all about whales, OK?), or see whatever few worthwhile shows there are immediately as they come out, or pay through the nose at the theater to see a bunch of first run bombs in hopes that the next movie's going to be any good. They pushed me fifteen years ago. This is my way of pushing back. I am not to be messed with. Good! Let them do their worst! The more they try to put people in a headlock, the more piracy there will be. And then they’ll go sniveling to the gov again, that it’s “ruining the business” as they usually do. Corporate welfare at its best.

When they began playing this shell game with TV fifteen years ago, I just canceled my cable subscription and stopped watching the damn thing altogether, even broadcast TV.

Also, I only go to second run theaters where a bucket of popcorn is still about $1.50. By the time the movie gets there, I know I won’t be disappointed. What about the few really good shows like Lost or Carnivale? I rent the whole season at the video store for next to nothing and watch it all in one weekend with like minded friends. We have a ball and a lot of beer!

I recently had to sit down and watch TV for a whole evening with a sick relative. It drove me bananas! No wonder she’s sick! It was like watching broadcast from another planet. What little I managed to follow (I was totally disinterested in whatever they were excited about on screen) was so incredibly stupid and irritating that I thought there was something wrong with ME!

I found out that I don’t need to be brainwashed by TV every night, or listen only to the news they want me to know, or pay for stupid shows about whales I don’t give a hoot about (No! I don’t care at all about whales, OK?), or see whatever few worthwhile shows there are immediately as they come out, or pay through the nose at the theater to see a bunch of first run bombs in hopes that the next movie’s going to be any good.

They pushed me fifteen years ago. This is my way of pushing back.

I am not to be messed with.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/05/07/fcc-hands-hollywood.html#comment-782358 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-782358 But don't worry. At least we have the Internet. But what if those bad ol' corporations who built it try to take it over? We'd better give the FCC authority to keeps it nice and neutral. That'll work great! "The Obama White House has done some good, but its administrative branch is stuffed with Hollywood lawyers who are Democratic Party stalwarts." Sooo....the "administration" is somehow on our side, and the FCC is a rogue executive branch agency acting against their wishes? Even better. But don’t worry. At least we have the Internet. But what if those bad ol’ corporations who built it try to take it over? We’d better give the FCC authority to keeps it nice and neutral. That’ll work great!

“The Obama White House has done some good, but its administrative branch is stuffed with Hollywood lawyers who are Democratic Party stalwarts.”

Sooo….the “administration” is somehow on our side, and the FCC is a rogue executive branch agency acting against their wishes? Even better.

]]> By: Yana http://boingboing.net/2010/05/07/fcc-hands-hollywood.html#comment-782359 Yana Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-782359 I haven't had a "set-top box" since 1994 and haven't owned a TV since 2009. I haven’t had a “set-top box” since 1994 and haven’t owned a TV since 2009.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/05/07/fcc-hands-hollywood.html#comment-783642 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-783642 I just will not buy anything new, with SOC on it.. I'll stick with what i got.. Turn off automatic updates. I just will not buy anything new, with SOC on it..

I’ll stick with what i got.. Turn off automatic updates.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/05/07/fcc-hands-hollywood.html#comment-782876 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-782876 It won't affect piracy, it will affect regular consumers // the majority of people. Pirates are just scapegoats for upping security/fascist control - I don't think they really care about pirates. They can be dealt with when the rest of the population have been zombiefied. It won’t affect piracy, it will affect regular consumers // the majority of people. Pirates are just scapegoats for upping security/fascist control – I don’t think they really care about pirates. They can be dealt with when the rest of the population have been zombiefied.

]]> By: OrcOnTheEndOfMyFork http://boingboing.net/2010/05/07/fcc-hands-hollywood.html#comment-783393 OrcOnTheEndOfMyFork Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-783393 Once you let the movie industry mandate this SOC infrastructure, the TV industry will demand to use it to. "DVRs are killing our ad revenue. We have to disable recording to stay in business," they'll say. And the FCC will bow willingly. The PC + internet is the only thing left for proper content, and even then, the PC is quickly being replaced by "walled garden" Apple devices... Once you let the movie industry mandate this SOC infrastructure, the TV industry will demand to use it to. “DVRs are killing our ad revenue. We have to disable recording to stay in business,” they’ll say. And the FCC will bow willingly. The PC + internet is the only thing left for proper content, and even then, the PC is quickly being replaced by “walled garden” Apple devices…

]]> By: lasttide http://boingboing.net/2010/05/07/fcc-hands-hollywood.html#comment-782376 lasttide Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-782376 The new DRM schemes will break, just like every other DRM scheme, within a couple weeks at most. The majority of people that buy their gear at Best Buy and Walmart will only have the choice of pre-crippled gear, but nerds will find Chinese and Korean manufacturers to make working tech. So really, we'll be watching 1080p rips of new movies, but in a small percentage of the overall population because its just one step harder to get pirated content (googling "non-drm hardware", buying it and THEN getting a torrent). The new DRM schemes will break, just like every other DRM scheme, within a couple weeks at most. The majority of people that buy their gear at Best Buy and Walmart will only have the choice of pre-crippled gear, but nerds will find Chinese and Korean manufacturers to make working tech.
So really, we’ll be watching 1080p rips of new movies, but in a small percentage of the overall population because its just one step harder to get pirated content (googling “non-drm hardware”, buying it and THEN getting a torrent).

]]> By: Szwagier http://boingboing.net/2010/05/07/fcc-hands-hollywood.html#comment-782377 Szwagier Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-782377 I don't give a rat's ass about Hollywood, but this is a huge step in the wrong direction. Piracy wins, Hollywood loses more face and money, and most of the world's population continue not to care one way or the other. I don’t give a rat’s ass about Hollywood, but this is a huge step in the wrong direction. Piracy wins, Hollywood loses more face and money, and most of the world’s population continue not to care one way or the other.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/05/07/fcc-hands-hollywood.html#comment-783406 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-783406 this is bad and we should all fight it but it's so easy to get around its a joke.. come on people even if all the hardware companies jump on to this wagon, there will be bios flashes that disable this stuff and programs that circumvent it. i dont know how well osx will fair but windows and Linux have a lot of programmers out there that already do stuff like this there are home made drivers and bios flashes for a lot of hardware out there from routers to graphics cards to tv's. a great example of this is nvidia's xphysics tech. this is bad and we should all fight it but it’s so easy to get around its a joke.. come on people even if all the hardware companies jump on to this wagon, there will be bios flashes that disable this stuff and programs that circumvent it. i dont know how well osx will fair but windows and Linux have a lot of programmers out there that already do stuff like this there are home made drivers and bios flashes for a lot of hardware out there from routers to graphics cards to tv’s. a great example of this is nvidia’s xphysics tech.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/05/07/fcc-hands-hollywood.html#comment-782639 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-782639 I already don't. fell into a bunch that send me movies to download that have drm disabled. haven't bought one in over 2 years!!! theaters charge way too much for my taste. stuff I burn off is just as good and would do that anyway to keep from messing the original up if I bought it. I already don’t. fell into a bunch that send me movies to download that have drm disabled. haven’t bought one in over 2 years!!! theaters charge way too much for my taste. stuff I burn off is just as good and would do that anyway to keep from messing the original up if I bought it.

]]> By: tkaraszewski http://boingboing.net/2010/05/07/fcc-hands-hollywood.html#comment-782385 tkaraszewski Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-782385 This is a very scary-sounding article that doesn't actually tell me how my own life will be affected in any way. Remember Intel's Processor Serial Number that everyone freaked out about but amounted to nothing? This is a very scary-sounding article that doesn’t actually tell me how my own life will be affected in any way. Remember Intel’s Processor Serial Number that everyone freaked out about but amounted to nothing?

]]> By: DrPretto http://boingboing.net/2010/05/07/fcc-hands-hollywood.html#comment-783155 DrPretto Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-783155 We NEED TO OPEN EVERYTHING. an alternate market (something similar to Google Android market). As someone said before, we need OPEN HARDWARE, but it is not that easy, we NEED OPEN CONTENT, OPEN SOFTWARE (like Linux), OPEN HARDWARE MANUFACTURERS (PCs, DVD players, TVs, etc...) With an Alternative Market, we can say Goodbye to Hollywood, and expensive content with bad quality . Like someone said before we should not forget other great alternatives of entertainment, like spend some time with your family outside, go to a REAL THEATER, Dance, play REAL music instruments or watch some REAL band with talent, Do something useful with your hands (with wood, ceramics), etc... Look at the state of music industry TODAY: Bad rap (with no melody) Lady Gaga and Justin Bieber (icons of discographic industry). THEN Just look for some videos of THE BEATLES (a band founded 50 years ago today) on youtube, I am sure you can find many 6 to 15 years old TEEN fans of the beatles, because they cant stand what the industry is "GIVING THEM" today (as an expensive GIFT). By the way if you think I am an old man, I am 30 years old. You know, if Cory Doctorow and Richard Stallman start a Political and Universal party, COUNT ME IN. WE SHOULD DEFFEND OUR FREEDOM TO DECIDE. ARENT WE LIVING IN DEMOCRACY?? We NEED TO OPEN EVERYTHING. an alternate market (something similar to Google Android market).
As someone said before, we need OPEN HARDWARE, but it is not that easy, we NEED OPEN CONTENT, OPEN SOFTWARE (like Linux), OPEN HARDWARE MANUFACTURERS (PCs, DVD players, TVs, etc…)
With an Alternative Market, we can say Goodbye to Hollywood, and expensive content with bad quality .

Like someone said before we should not forget other great alternatives of entertainment, like spend some time with your family outside, go to a REAL THEATER, Dance, play REAL music instruments or watch some REAL band with talent, Do something useful with your hands (with wood, ceramics), etc…

Look at the state of music industry TODAY: Bad rap (with no melody) Lady Gaga and Justin Bieber (icons of discographic industry). THEN Just look for some videos of THE BEATLES (a band founded 50 years ago today) on youtube, I am sure you can find many 6 to 15 years old TEEN fans of the beatles, because they cant stand what the industry is “GIVING THEM” today (as an expensive GIFT).
By the way if you think I am an old man, I am 30 years old.
You know, if Cory Doctorow and Richard Stallman start a Political and Universal party, COUNT ME IN.
WE SHOULD DEFFEND OUR FREEDOM TO DECIDE.
ARENT WE LIVING IN DEMOCRACY??

]]> By: godisafiction http://boingboing.net/2010/05/07/fcc-hands-hollywood.html#comment-782136 godisafiction Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-782136 So assuming we don't have a time machine, what's the solution? So assuming we don’t have a time machine, what’s the solution?

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/05/07/fcc-hands-hollywood.html#comment-783417 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-783417 I warned you about this when Obama picked Biden. This is all perfectly in line with his entire career; I've known Joe for decades and he's always openly been big media's BFF. I warned you about this when Obama picked Biden. This is all perfectly in line with his entire career; I’ve known Joe for decades and he’s always openly been big media’s BFF.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/05/07/fcc-hands-hollywood.html#comment-782394 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-782394 How is this not a violation of the Computer Fraud and Abuse act as "Exceeding Access"? If I put a DVD/Blu-Ray/New-Hotness(tm) disk into my computer I want it to do one thing *and one thing only*: play a video. By doing anything else automatically (phoning home, turning off components of *my* computer system, etc.) it has exceeded the access *I* gave it over *my* property. Unfortunately, IANAL, so I have no idea how this isn't a violation of the law when it happens to a networked computer. I would appreciate it if someone with more knowledge than I would chime in. How is this not a violation of the Computer Fraud and Abuse act as “Exceeding Access”? If I put a DVD/Blu-Ray/New-Hotness(tm) disk into my computer I want it to do one thing *and one thing only*: play a video. By doing anything else automatically (phoning home, turning off components of *my* computer system, etc.) it has exceeded the access *I* gave it over *my* property. Unfortunately, IANAL, so I have no idea how this isn’t a violation of the law when it happens to a networked computer. I would appreciate it if someone with more knowledge than I would chime in.

]]> By: DrPretto http://boingboing.net/2010/05/07/fcc-hands-hollywood.html#comment-783165 DrPretto Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-783165 OPEN SOURCE HARDWARE LINKS for people interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-source_hardware http://opencollector.org/Whyfree/ http://boingboing.net/2009/03/18/open-source-hardware.html http://antipastohw.blogspot.com/2009/03/introducing-open-source-hardware.html http://www.openhardware.de/ http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2007/04/open_source_hardware_what.html http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2009/12/open_source_hardware_2009_-_the_def.html http://harkopen.com/ http://www.arduino.cc/ http://www.linuxfund.org/projects/ogd1/ http://www.wired.com/gadgets/miscellaneous/news/2008/03/etech_hardware http://www.oshwbank.org/ http://opencores.org/ OPEN SOURCE HARDWARE LINKS for people interested:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-source_hardware
http://opencollector.org/Whyfree/
http://boingboing.net/2009/03/18/open-source-hardware.html
http://antipastohw.blogspot.com/2009/03/introducing-open-source-hardware.html
http://www.openhardware.de/
http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2007/04/open_source_hardware_what.html
http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2009/12/open_source_hardware_2009_-_the_def.html
http://harkopen.com/
http://www.arduino.cc/
http://www.linuxfund.org/projects/ogd1/
http://www.wired.com/gadgets/miscellaneous/news/2008/03/etech_hardware
http://www.oshwbank.org/
http://opencores.org/

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/05/07/fcc-hands-hollywood.html#comment-785471 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-785471 The solution? S-Video, actually ... The solution? S-Video, actually …

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/05/07/fcc-hands-hollywood.html#comment-783168 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-783168 No problem.My coder friends and I will write plenty of drivers for free. No problem.My coder friends and I will write plenty of drivers for free.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/05/07/fcc-hands-hollywood.html#comment-783680 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-783680 The solution is stop buying movies, and Pirate everything. The solution is stop buying movies, and Pirate everything.

]]> By: fr4nk http://boingboing.net/2010/05/07/fcc-hands-hollywood.html#comment-782146 fr4nk Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-782146 The AP reports: "In its decision Friday, the agency stressed that its waiver includes several important conditions, including limits on how long studios can use the blocking technology. The FCC said the technology cannot be used on a particular movie once it is out on DVD or Blu-Ray, or after 90 days from the time it is first used on that movie, whichever comes first." The AP reports:
“In its decision Friday, the agency stressed that its waiver includes several important conditions, including limits on how long studios can use the blocking technology. The FCC said the technology cannot be used on a particular movie once it is out on DVD or Blu-Ray, or after 90 days from the time it is first used on that movie, whichever comes first.”

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/05/07/fcc-hands-hollywood.html#comment-782658 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-782658 Hackers are about to become very important to me. ANYTHING that can be put into an electronic device can be hacked and altered or disabled. . . period. The FCC has just created a new economy, this is the age of the hacker. I will gladly pay a reasonable cost to have my devices cleaned of all of this kind of crap and I bet there are millions of people just like me out there. All you software and hardware hackers out there, send a thank you letter to the FCC for securing your financial future! Hackers are about to become very important to me. ANYTHING that can be put into an electronic device can be hacked and altered or disabled. . . period. The FCC has just created a new economy, this is the age of the hacker. I will gladly pay a reasonable cost to have my devices cleaned of all of this kind of crap and I bet there are millions of people just like me out there. All you software and hardware hackers out there, send a thank you letter to the FCC for securing your financial future!

]]> By: dainel http://boingboing.net/2010/05/07/fcc-hands-hollywood.html#comment-782147 dainel Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-782147 If SOC is not required by law, what is to prevent manufacturers from *NOT* including them? I'm thinking of those cheap DVD players from China does do not respect the region-lock. If SOC is not required by law, what is to prevent manufacturers from *NOT* including them? I’m thinking of those cheap DVD players from China does do not respect the region-lock.

]]> By: Cory Doctorow http://boingboing.net/2010/05/07/fcc-hands-hollywood.html#comment-782149 Cory Doctorow Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-782149 Yeah, the FCC says that they can only use it for 90 days or until the DVD release, but they *don't* say that this can only be used while the movie's in theaters. The studios sold this to the Commission by saying that they wanted to enable the "new business model" of watching current release movies on your TV at home. But as worded, the FCC just sets up a new release window: instead of theater -> delay -> DVD, they'll go theater -> delay -> SOC -> DVD. This will piss off the DVD retailers, but the studios have practically declared war on them already (see Redbox). Yeah, the FCC says that they can only use it for 90 days or until the DVD release, but they *don’t* say that this can only be used while the movie’s in theaters.

The studios sold this to the Commission by saying that they wanted to enable the “new business model” of watching current release movies on your TV at home.

But as worded, the FCC just sets up a new release window: instead of theater -> delay -> DVD, they’ll go theater -> delay -> SOC -> DVD. This will piss off the DVD retailers, but the studios have practically declared war on them already (see Redbox).

]]> By: Trotsky http://boingboing.net/2010/05/07/fcc-hands-hollywood.html#comment-782150 Trotsky Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-782150 Is SOC on the iPad? Then I'm good. Is SOC on the iPad?

Then I’m good.

]]> By: Cory Doctorow http://boingboing.net/2010/05/07/fcc-hands-hollywood.html#comment-782151 Cory Doctorow Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-782151 The analogy to DVDs is a good one, but it has two critical flaws: * DVD-CCA license terms don't regulate sub-components (except to the extent that they prohibit user-modifiability). This means that you can build a noncompliant DVD player out of the same stuff as a compliant one. Not true for next-gen DRM. * The DVD-CCA did not set aside a war-chest for suing license violators. As a result, they've had almost no suits against noncompliant device vendors. This is NOT true of next-gen license cartels: these folks have asked their founding members to give them huge reserve-sums for suing noncompliant implementors. So while noncompliant DVD vendors were able to get parts and avoid litigation, the studios are attempting to see to it that next-gen DRM violators will not enjoy these safe harbors. The analogy to DVDs is a good one, but it has two critical flaws:

* DVD-CCA license terms don’t regulate sub-components (except to the extent that they prohibit user-modifiability). This means that you can build a noncompliant DVD player out of the same stuff as a compliant one. Not true for next-gen DRM.

* The DVD-CCA did not set aside a war-chest for suing license violators. As a result, they’ve had almost no suits against noncompliant device vendors. This is NOT true of next-gen license cartels: these folks have asked their founding members to give them huge reserve-sums for suing noncompliant implementors.

So while noncompliant DVD vendors were able to get parts and avoid litigation, the studios are attempting to see to it that next-gen DRM violators will not enjoy these safe harbors.

]]>