Comments on: Jim Woodring's giant dip pen project http://boingboing.net/2010/07/15/jim-woodrings-giant.html Brain candy for Happy Mutants Wed, 22 May 2013 06:10:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: benher http://boingboing.net/2010/07/15/jim-woodrings-giant.html#comment-835844 benher Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-835844 No offense to the physics pendants who commented on this story, but who took a shit in your happy mutant breakfast cereal this morning? Yes, if you've ever used a nib then you know how the ink works. There are plenty of ways to solve this issue. Baring alterations to the materials or ink themselves, the inside of the giant nib could be modified to hold and dispense the ink or a smaller nib fitted to the forefront of the large nib. Easy to use? No. Practical? No. But Impossible? No. Even without watching the video, Jim states that the pen is 'fully functional' which I would assume means that he has worked it out on some level. Jim's an incredible artist, and rather than stagnate he's trying something new. Coming up with new and interesting ideas all the while being true to yourself is a difficult task... unfortunately pointing out the obvious (of which the artist in question is already well aware) is painfully easy. No offense to the physics pendants who commented on this story, but who took a shit in your happy mutant breakfast cereal this morning?

Yes, if you’ve ever used a nib then you know how the ink works. There are plenty of ways to solve this issue. Baring alterations to the materials or ink themselves, the inside of the giant nib could be modified to hold and dispense the ink or a smaller nib fitted to the forefront of the large nib. Easy to use? No. Practical? No. But Impossible? No.

Even without watching the video, Jim states that the pen is ‘fully functional’ which I would assume means that he has worked it out on some level.

Jim’s an incredible artist, and rather than stagnate he’s trying something new. Coming up with new and interesting ideas all the while being true to yourself is a difficult task… unfortunately pointing out the obvious (of which the artist in question is already well aware) is painfully easy.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/07/15/jim-woodrings-giant.html#comment-835598 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-835598 The question of how the ink will be made to adhere to the pen and still come flowing between the tines is still being worked out but I'm confident I can make it go. A series of stacked baffles with a delta feeder, perhaps, or using magnetic paint (the kind you can paint on a wall and then stick magnets to), with some rare earth magnets strategically placed on the nib. At any rate the figuring out will be fun. If anyone has any suggestions they'd care to share please do. I would be remiss if I didn't mention that USAPS has all sorts of interesting projects on it. See for yourself: http://projectsite.unitedstatesartists.org/ The question of how the ink will be made to adhere to the pen and still come flowing between the tines is still being worked out but I’m confident I can make it go. A series of stacked baffles with a delta feeder, perhaps, or using magnetic paint (the kind you can paint on a wall and then stick magnets to), with some rare earth magnets strategically placed on the nib. At any rate the figuring out will be fun. If anyone has any suggestions they’d care to share please do.

I would be remiss if I didn’t mention that USAPS has all sorts of interesting projects on it. See for yourself: http://projectsite.unitedstatesartists.org/

]]> By: GreatRewards http://boingboing.net/2010/07/15/jim-woodrings-giant.html#comment-835344 GreatRewards Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-835344 Bigger is not always better. Bigger is not always better.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/07/15/jim-woodrings-giant.html#comment-835345 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-835345 surface tension! blaaaaarg!!!! surface tension!

blaaaaarg!!!!

]]> By: dreamparacite http://boingboing.net/2010/07/15/jim-woodrings-giant.html#comment-835350 dreamparacite Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-835350 I don't know if anyone watched the entire video, but he mentions the surface tension problem himself I don’t know if anyone watched the entire video, but he mentions the surface tension problem himself

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/07/15/jim-woodrings-giant.html#comment-835370 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-835370 I forsee DISASTER. In attempting to even a) BEND the nib and b) get the tarry ink to flow Jim will fatally impale himself on the pen, proving the old adage once and for all re: swords v. writing instruments. I forsee DISASTER.

In attempting to even
a) BEND the nib and
b) get the tarry ink to flow

Jim will fatally impale himself on the pen, proving the old adage once and for all re: swords v. writing instruments.

]]> By: Trotsky http://boingboing.net/2010/07/15/jim-woodrings-giant.html#comment-835635 Trotsky Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-835635 Surface tension and other bothersome aspects of what we casually refer to as the "laws" of physics matter not to one such as Woodring. He'll do it. It's only a matter of time. Surface tension and other bothersome aspects of what we casually refer to as the “laws” of physics matter not to one such as Woodring. He’ll do it. It’s only a matter of time.

]]> By: Xopher http://boingboing.net/2010/07/15/jim-woodrings-giant.html#comment-835639 Xopher Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-835639 Or perhaps hundreds of tiny stargates, coming from a world made of ink? I think that would be more likely to work. Or perhaps hundreds of tiny stargates, coming from a world made of ink? I think that would be more likely to work.

]]> By: peedee http://boingboing.net/2010/07/15/jim-woodrings-giant.html#comment-835640 peedee Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-835640 For the doubters: the man deals with ink for a living; he understands it thoroughly. Art is all about doing stuff like this and putting engineering in the back seat for a while. Don't misunderstand - engineering is vital, but at times the idea needs to be in the forfront and let the engineering catch up. I've frequently found the how-to only after seeing the finished piece in my sketchbooks. For the doubters: the man deals with ink for a living; he understands it thoroughly. Art is all about doing stuff like this and putting engineering in the back seat for a while. Don’t misunderstand – engineering is vital, but at times the idea needs to be in the forfront and let the engineering catch up. I’ve frequently found the how-to only after seeing the finished piece in my sketchbooks.

]]> By: Trotsky http://boingboing.net/2010/07/15/jim-woodrings-giant.html#comment-835643 Trotsky Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-835643 Say "hi" to Dorman for me, Jim. Also, as an amusing aside, the Dorman link on your Wikipedia page directs to an NYC Fire Commissioner. Say “hi” to Dorman for me, Jim.

Also, as an amusing aside, the Dorman link on your Wikipedia page directs to an NYC Fire Commissioner.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/07/15/jim-woodrings-giant.html#comment-835390 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-835390 Definitely a fluid mechanics fail. Even if you "buckingham-pi" the viscosity up to scale, you still have the problem that the porosity of the paper will be unchanged. The globs of ink will sit on the page like chocolate mouse on a hardwood floor. Definitely a fluid mechanics fail. Even if you “buckingham-pi” the viscosity up to scale, you still have the problem that the porosity of the paper will be unchanged. The globs of ink will sit on the page like chocolate mouse on a hardwood floor.

]]> By: Unmutual http://boingboing.net/2010/07/15/jim-woodrings-giant.html#comment-835397 Unmutual Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-835397 yeah he mentions it, and then says there will be some kind of mechanism to replicate the effect . . . whatever that means. Seems like a high tech solution to pay tribute to such a low tech device. . . yeah he mentions it, and then says there will be some kind of mechanism to replicate the effect . . . whatever that means. Seems like a high tech solution to pay tribute to such a low tech device. . .

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/07/15/jim-woodrings-giant.html#comment-874828 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-874828 The giant pen won't happen unless we all donate to Mr. Woodring's project. He still needs a little over $2000 to make it happen so tell your friends and let's fireball this across the interwebz http://bit.ly/aUIjYQ The giant pen won’t happen unless we all donate to Mr. Woodring’s project. He still needs a little over $2000 to make it happen so tell your friends and let’s fireball this across the interwebz http://bit.ly/aUIjYQ

]]> By: M. Campbell http://boingboing.net/2010/07/15/jim-woodrings-giant.html#comment-835420 M. Campbell Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-835420 Utter fluid mechanics fail. Even if you do "buckingham-pi" the surface tension up to scale. There's the porosity of the writing surface to deal with as well. The interplay between vicosity (a length-cubed property) and surface tension (a length-linear property) will probably mean the ink would sit up on the paper like chocolate mousse on a hardwood floor. You know what this is useful for? As a PhD candidancy exam question in mechanical engineering. Utter fluid mechanics fail.
Even if you do “buckingham-pi” the surface tension up to scale. There’s the porosity of the writing surface to deal with as well. The interplay between vicosity (a length-cubed property) and surface tension (a length-linear property) will probably mean the ink would sit up on the paper like chocolate mousse on a hardwood floor.
You know what this is useful for? As a PhD candidancy exam question in mechanical engineering.

]]> By: M. Campbell http://boingboing.net/2010/07/15/jim-woodrings-giant.html#comment-835441 M. Campbell Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-835441 whoops. I screwed that up. I meant "The interplay between density (a length-cubed property) and viscosity (a length-linear...). But I think the intuition is correct. whoops. I screwed that up. I meant “The interplay between density (a length-cubed property) and viscosity (a length-linear…). But I think the intuition is correct.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/07/15/jim-woodrings-giant.html#comment-835442 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-835442 Jim already KNOWS the physics involved concerning the scale and fluid issue you are all bringing up. If you had watched his video, you'd know that! I think he's probably got a pretty good head on his shoulders about it and am down to pitch in and see what he makes of it! Jim already KNOWS the physics involved concerning the scale and fluid issue you are all bringing up. If you had watched his video, you’d know that! I think he’s probably got a pretty good head on his shoulders about it and am down to pitch in and see what he makes of it!

]]> By: hdon http://boingboing.net/2010/07/15/jim-woodrings-giant.html#comment-835976 hdon Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-835976 To overcome poor surface tension vs. scale of the pen tip, he should use a magnetic material for the tip, and a ferrofluid for the ink.. To overcome poor surface tension vs. scale of the pen tip, he should use a magnetic material for the tip, and a ferrofluid for the ink..

]]> By: hellishmundane http://boingboing.net/2010/07/15/jim-woodrings-giant.html#comment-835483 hellishmundane Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-835483 he should proposition a state college sculpture class to make that pen. He would at least get it done a lot cheaper. he should proposition a state college sculpture class to make that pen. He would at least get it done a lot cheaper.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/07/15/jim-woodrings-giant.html#comment-835493 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-835493 The man deals in dreams. On some level, he knows what he's doing. The man deals in dreams. On some level, he knows what he’s doing.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/07/15/jim-woodrings-giant.html#comment-835519 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-835519 Engineering to the rescue! Porous materials would permit normal ink to be used. For example: http://www.mcmaster.com/#porous-aluminum/=7z54wg 15% porous. or you could buy porous brass, SS, ceramic, etc. Engineering to the rescue! Porous materials would permit normal ink to be used. For example:

http://www.mcmaster.com/#porous-aluminum/=7z54wg

15% porous.

or you could buy porous brass, SS, ceramic, etc.

]]> By: King Sky Prawn http://boingboing.net/2010/07/15/jim-woodrings-giant.html#comment-835522 King Sky Prawn Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-835522 Instead of a new ink to work in a giant reservoir, I immediately thought of a reservoir made of a fractal pattern of normal-sized reservoirs, like a river delta. Instead of a new ink to work in a giant reservoir, I immediately thought of a reservoir made of a fractal pattern of normal-sized reservoirs, like a river delta.

]]> By: Kakiman http://boingboing.net/2010/07/15/jim-woodrings-giant.html#comment-835791 Kakiman Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-835791 A ball-point pen of that scale does work. My son, for a 7th grade project, built a working scaled-up model of a pen, 6 times actual size, so that it ended up being about 3 feet long. The body of the pen was 3" PVC pipe (left over from our potato cannons), the tip was cut to size from a funnel and glued into place, the roller ball was a large (about 1/2" steel ball bearing dropped from the inside into the tip so that it was held captive but still protruded), and finally, he put a small finish nail just behind the ball bearing to keep it in place in the bottom of the tip. Black spray paint on the whole thing made it look like a pen. He used tap water with food coloring as ink and he could write pretty well with it - at least as legible as his 'normal' writing - the key was to have just the right amount of pressure on the ball for it to roll freely. It would drip a little (about one drop per every three or four seconds), but I imagine that wouldn't happen with a more viscous fluid. Total cost: Two dollars (all items except the funnel were garage scavenged). A ball-point pen of that scale does work.
My son, for a 7th grade project, built a working scaled-up model of a pen, 6 times actual size, so that it ended up being about 3 feet long. The body of the pen was 3″ PVC pipe (left over from our potato cannons), the tip was cut to size from a funnel and glued into place, the roller ball was a large (about 1/2″ steel ball bearing dropped from the inside into the tip so that it was held captive but still protruded), and finally, he put a small finish nail just behind the ball bearing to keep it in place in the bottom of the tip. Black spray paint on the whole thing made it look like a pen.
He used tap water with food coloring as ink and he could write pretty well with it – at least as legible as his ‘normal’ writing – the key was to have just the right amount of pressure on the ball for it to roll freely. It would drip a little (about one drop per every three or four seconds), but I imagine that wouldn’t happen with a more viscous fluid.

Total cost: Two dollars (all items except the funnel were garage scavenged).

]]> By: Unmutual http://boingboing.net/2010/07/15/jim-woodrings-giant.html#comment-835295 Unmutual Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-835295 Wouldn't the surface tension of the ink just cause it all to run right out of the pen? I'd imagine that the amount that actually sticks to the tip wouldn't be much different than a regular sized pen. Wouldn’t the surface tension of the ink just cause it all to run right out of the pen? I’d imagine that the amount that actually sticks to the tip wouldn’t be much different than a regular sized pen.

]]> By: Jeremy Hill http://boingboing.net/2010/07/15/jim-woodrings-giant.html#comment-835301 Jeremy Hill Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-835301 I second Unmutual. Isn't the whole reason these pens work the surface tension of the ink? Seems unlikely unless you have extremely thick ink. Unless it's just designed as a massive pen with a tiny standard sized tip on the very large tip. I second Unmutual.

Isn’t the whole reason these pens work the surface tension of the ink? Seems unlikely unless you have extremely thick ink.

Unless it’s just designed as a massive pen with a tiny standard sized tip on the very large tip.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/07/15/jim-woodrings-giant.html#comment-835303 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-835303 I don't think his large pen will work. My experience with nibs is that the surface tension that facilitates the movement of the water-based ink will only work at small scales. I don’t think his large pen will work.
My experience with nibs is that the surface tension that facilitates the movement of the water-based ink will only work at small scales.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/07/15/jim-woodrings-giant.html#comment-835306 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-835306 Fluid Physics FAIL, Woodring. LOVE the comics, but stick to art. Fluid Physics FAIL, Woodring.

LOVE the comics, but stick to art.

]]> By: Unmutual http://boingboing.net/2010/07/15/jim-woodrings-giant.html#comment-835309 Unmutual Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-835309 Maybe he will use tar balls . . . Maybe he will use tar balls . . .

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2010/07/15/jim-woodrings-giant.html#comment-835313 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-835313 I third the first two posts. For the giant dip pen to work as giant pen (making giant, scaled up lines) it will need the physics of the ink scaled up, too. Otherwise it will essentially just be a giant handle for a regular dip pen, drawing regular lines. But, it may be possible to just make the ink very viscous. I'll be interested to hear how it turns out. I third the first two posts. For the giant dip pen to work as giant pen (making giant, scaled up lines) it will need the physics of the ink scaled up, too. Otherwise it will essentially just be a giant handle for a regular dip pen, drawing regular lines. But, it may be possible to just make the ink very viscous. I’ll be interested to hear how it turns out.

]]> By: dystopianforhire http://boingboing.net/2010/07/15/jim-woodrings-giant.html#comment-835319 dystopianforhire Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-835319 I'm fairly sure normal dip pen inks (which are typically thickened with gum arabic to increase viscosity and thus the amount held by the nib) would be disappointing in this nib. Perhaps a syrupy ink, like screen-printing ink, would do better? Gum arabic is pretty easy to find, too, so a custom mix is always a possibility. There are definitely ways to make this work, and I'm curious to see the end results. I’m fairly sure normal dip pen inks (which are typically thickened with gum arabic to increase viscosity and thus the amount held by the nib) would be disappointing in this nib. Perhaps a syrupy ink, like screen-printing ink, would do better? Gum arabic is pretty easy to find, too, so a custom mix is always a possibility. There are definitely ways to make this work, and I’m curious to see the end results.

]]> By: Peter S. Conrad http://boingboing.net/2010/07/15/jim-woodrings-giant.html#comment-835323 Peter S. Conrad Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-835323 I agree--the surface tension of the ink doesn't work the same way at that scale. Same reason a water-strider can walk on the surface of a pond and you can't. And thick ink, unless it's just right, will be clumpy and unwieldy. This is exactly why big paintbrushes were invented. Not to mention how hard it will be to flex the nib! On the other hand, if anyone can pull this off and prove us all wrong, Jim Woodring can. I agree–the surface tension of the ink doesn’t work the same way at that scale. Same reason a water-strider can walk on the surface of a pond and you can’t. And thick ink, unless it’s just right, will be clumpy and unwieldy. This is exactly why big paintbrushes were invented. Not to mention how hard it will be to flex the nib!

On the other hand, if anyone can pull this off and prove us all wrong, Jim Woodring can.

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