Yeah I’m gonna have to defend Tim and jh a little bit here.

You’re right that if they give money to the church that makes them complicit in the church’s active suppression of a group’s civil rights…but frankly that argument could be made pretty much just as strongly for any one of us.

If they are Mormon presumably they believe LDS have a pretty decent handle on the truth and that there is more reasons to be in the church than not…it’s no inconsequential thing to leave it therefore and tithing is serious among Mormons as it is among a few other sects. It is still voluntary…but pretty strongly encouraged.

Arizona likewise uses taxpayer dollars to restrict the basic civil rights of a certain segment of it’s citizens. You can leave Arizona…but that’s not nothing either. So are all Arizonians (Arizonae?) complicit in that bigotry? Maybe. True, tax isn’t voluntary. But you can leave.

Likewise the federal government is complicit in all kinds of disequal treatment…what is okay for one group of people to do (us) is not okay for another (everyone who dislikes us). Are we complicit from paying taxes? True…it’s a huge undertaking to leave a country permanently, much huger than not paying your tithe…but for some truly, honest in their beliefs folks perhaps not any huger of an undertaking than leaving a church. And yes, taxes aren’t voluntary…except they sort of are.

There are plenty of tax protesters out there who, for example, don’t send part or all of their taxes in for one reason or another…anti-war etc. Now, those people suffer some inconvenience…but typically the protestors (as opposed to the merely self-interested dodgers) more or less get away with it. They suffer, they require courage…but the government doesn’t lock them up generally. Now it’s easy for some people (including myself) to say…well heck even the threat of getting locked up is much more of a burden than anything a Mormon will suffer from leaving the church…but then we’re not Mormon. What if you feel that you will be denied heaven? To some, that would be quite significantly more of a burden than a little stint in jail…something they might undertake without a second thought rather than lose the kingdom.

snakedart, I’m not saying you’re wrong…I’m saying your argument is problematic and I wouldn’t make it as strongly as you’re making it. We’re all complicit in terrible things to a greater or lesser extent…and living in the United States I’m complicit in worse things than the average.

I’m just saying watch out for glass houses.

Your arguments are remarkably similar to those I hear from people who are anti-Islam.

You have every right to be angry about the actions of the church on this matter; this is clearly a deeply personal issue for you. But please keep in mind that those of us on this forum who are LDS are saying “We agree with you” and have argued with many that we know–our families, our friends, people we have known our entire lives in some cases–that you should have the right to marry who you want. I have made your exact argument to my brother, my parents, my sister, my brother-in-law, my coworkers, my former girlfriend, and to each of my friends who supported Prop 8. We are not your enemy.

We disagree with the actions of many of the church members and the leaders of the church. But just as you probably don’t move to a different state or country every time your government does something you don’t like, we don’t change religions that quickly either.

You mentioned you weren’t raised or were ever a Mormon, which I’m not surprised by since you seem to have a very one-sided view of the church and it’s teachings. As I said in a previous post, ignorance is what creates homophobia, xenophobia, and ignorance is why Prop 8 was passed to begin with. And I honestly think ignorance is why you believe the LDS church is your enemy.

I’m not saying you have to like the church or agree with everything it says, but you seem so adamant about hating it and fighting it that I can’t imagine you actually know the vast majority of what it does or teaches.

Please, don’t perpetuate the very same kind of ignorance has caused you so much pain; before declaring the LDS church your sworn enemy, learn what it is actually like and actually teaches from real members and real sources, not anti-Mormon sites. (And there are a LOT of them; at a bookstore I worked at, there were 7 LDS books, one was actually written by a church leader, 3 were anti-Mormon, and 3 were about the FLDS church and Warren Jeffs.)

(I wasn’t replying exactly to YOU in my comment, btw; I was actually replying to the general sentiment. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.)

HOWEVER: It’s not the objection to individual Mormons, but rather to the Mormon religion as a whole. The Mormon religion is not pro-gay marriage or pro-gay in any way, shape, or form.

That said, Mormon individuals are likely not going to be pro-gay, because the Mormon religion is not pro-gay. There may be a few, but they are rare, and I would be willing to bet that they are not officially recognized by the Mormon church, or are no longer active.

If you pay taxes in your country, are you responsible for or complicit in every act that is done by your government? Are all Americans responsible and complicit for the innocent lives that are lost in Afghanistan?

Yes. Yes it does. And that’s why it makes me so angry. They’re doing these terrible things, committing these atrocities in my name. I DO think it makes me complicit, and it DOES make me feel guilty and dirty.

There’s an important difference though. I have no legal right to withhold my taxes because I don’t agree with how they’re spent. You can withhold your tithes without legal consequence (yes, you will have social consequences; nothing is to be bought without paying a price).

And yes, I’m being kind of hard on tithing Mormons. Remember that your Church is my enemy; depriving it of funding is one tactic I’m using to fight it.

I guess this is why I don’t usually get into these arguments on the internet; logic and rationality are always trumped by anger and rhetoric.

This is true. You’re not on the side of that you think you’re on, though.

And be honest, how long do you think it would be before a gay couple insisted that they be allowed to have a marriage ceremony performed in a Mormon temple, and brought suit to bear?

They would lose, and rightly so. That’s why we have a First Amendment. If you believed in what America stands for at all, you would know that.

What about nocturnal emissions? It is very rare that a primate masturbates to orgasm, but I’m pretty sure that a monkey who has gone months without a sexual release would still be fully functional if he found a willing partner.

(emphasis added)

O. My. Gods. You don’t get out much, do you? GO TO THE ZOO and stop making idiotic pronouncements. Your ignorance is truly monumental.

And no, nocturnal emissions are not adequate, according to my urologist, for anyone over the age of 14 or so. The gods gave us hands (different from any other primate’s), and that’s what they’re for.

It does change my life. It forces me to acknowledge that marriage, something I may hold sacred and dear as it is, is something else.

For heavens’ sake, stop whining. You’re pathetic. And…so, it hurts me that Mormonism, which I firmly believe is just a nut-cult, is acknowledged as a real religion. So that means I can try to get a law passed which strips the CJCLDS of its status as a church, right? So it would become the for-profit corporation it’s always been anyway, and my definition of ‘religion’ will be protected. And of course my right to my definition of ‘religion’ trumps your right to freedom OF religion, so you really can’t object at all.

I don’t really feel that way, but if I did your “logic” would indicate that if the CJCLDS prevailed in court, that would hurt me, because a definition I hold dear has been legally changed.

That’s the stupidest thing you’ve said yet, a significant achievement.

The crucial point you seem to be missing is that the church isn’t imposing anything different upon gays that it imposes upon any other member.

…and you top it almost immediately. Yeah, the law bars rich and poor alike from sleeping under bridges.

A tithe payer voluntarily gives his or her money to the LDS Church under the express agreement that it will be used at the church’s discretion.

And now you’re trying to redefine ‘voluntarily’. Sorry, but if you’re raised from birth to believe that you can only get into heaven if you tithe (or only if you get married in the Temple, or whatever), that’s an extension of the term ‘voluntary’ that I think is unwarranted. Maybe I’ll sponsor a referendum in your state to define ‘voluntarily’ as “without coercion, including but not limited to lifelong brainwashing,” and that your church should therefore be banned from collecting tithes.

And I think Antinous was right. You’re too twisted and delusional to argue with. Good night.

No, they don’t throw me in jail. But if I am not a full tithe payer I will be unable to receive a temple recommend which is necessary to be married in the church. … As such, by not paying tithing, I am also denied the right to marry in my own faith.

Now I did not know that. Not paying your tithe would really be putting your money where your mouth is on marriage equality, then. It would amount to deciding not to get married yourself (in the Temple, with the Garments and the whole I-of-course-don’t-know-what) until the Church drops its opposition to letting gays get married (in the City Clerk’s office, legally but NOT in the Temple OR even the Mormon Church, with NO expectation that the Church would or should recognize such a marriage now or ever). That would be a welcome display of solidarity, but it’s more than I (for one) am willing to ask of you.

This makes me angrier at the Mormon Church, because it seems like they’re really running a particularly vicious money-sucking racket. It makes me much more sympathetic to you, though.

I am very sorry that this feels like a personal attack on you. I know my words and what I say mean nothing to you

On the contrary, it means a lot to me. It means a lot about you and what kind of person you are. It doesn’t change my opinion of the LDS Church as a whole.

But then I’ve never done anything worse to a Mormon than say “your church is my enemy.” I felt horrible when, right after Prop 8 passed, I saw some Mormon boys on mission and had a strong urge to hit them (a friend explained their situation to me, and that evil desire went away; now my inclination is to feed them, not assault them). I suppose some Mormons might take my derisive comments about Joseph Smith and Mormon doctrine as worse than that, but I don’t. I’m not going to try to keep Mormons from getting jobs, or say they shouldn’t have marriage licenses, or deface their property (or that of the church, for that matter).

But as I said, within actual church meetings I have never once heard anything about politics or Proposition 8 stated. Not one time in a church meeting has politics ever come up. Not one time have I heard my Bishop, my teachers, or anyone else declare anything political in church meetings.

So, then, it appears that what’s really going on is that Monster took $20 million of the church’s money to spend on his personal crusade. Is there any method short of assassination for getting rid of a Prophet once he’s elevated, or installed, or whatever? He sure seems to be a bad one.

You have made it harder for me to make strident pronouncements about Mormons and the LDS Church. I actually appreciate that; thank you. Someone else in this thread is going to make it easier, though!

I like how you don’t actually explain why this is so. Can you explain it without sounding homophobic?

I also have a good friend of many years who was raised Mormon, though you’ll probably discount her because she got herself excommunicated.

I think Joseph Smith (the founder of your religion) and Gerald Gardner (the founder of mine) had a lot in common. Both were charismatic con men, and both were in it for the women. The main differences are a) while Joseph Smith concocted a fairly preposterous story about his acquisition of the ancient texts, Gerald Gardner wrote them himself and claimed to have copied them out of Ye Auncient Bookes of Lore, forsooth, and b) while Joseph Smith wanted to marry lots of women, Old Gerald just wanted them to get naked and whip his pasty English buttocks with silken flails.

Obviously I don’t think a complete charlatan (or even a madman) as founder invalidates the whole religion, or I wouldn’t be a Wiccan. I had Mormons pretty much listed under “kinda crazy but pretty harmless,” and in fact thought the Mormon take on the afterlife of non-Mormons was relatively kind and gentle: you just go to the second-best heaven, which sounds OK, especially since the first-best heaven sounds like only an insane power-mad freak would even want it.

So the actions of the CJCLDS in California made me change my behavior. They amount to a declaration of war on the gay community. I’m amazed that I keep on hearing Mormons talk like we’re not allowed to fight back. Well, hell with that. What do you all EXPECT us to do?

So that’s another thing: the evil men (and they are ALL men) who are running your church right now are bringing your religion into disrepute. Do you have any way of getting rid of them? What pressure can rank-and-file Mormons bring to bear to stop them from using your money to disgrace your church and everything good that it stands for (and it does stand for some good things—just not my job to mention them in the middle of a war)? The only thing I can think of is “don’t tithe.” If there’s a movement within the church to stop this crap and get rid of alleged-Prophet-and-actual-scumbag Monson, I haven’t heard of it.

If you know of anything, let me know. I’ll tell Mormons to join up with Mormons for Same-Sex Marriage if I know it exists.

Mon français est strictement Google Translate, alors pardonnez-moi si c’est faux.

No system is perfect and as much as SCOTUS makes me crazy and I want to throw things at Kennedy’s head (preferably a shoe) I still like them better than any other branch of government. Even though that’s not saying much. Power corrupts and there is hardly a soul with any real power who isn’t corrupt. But still. Let’s get rid of the more corrupt before the less corrupt.

I do not share Breyer’s fondness for the legislature. I would much rather get rid of the Senate than the judiciary. By the way is anyone taking up a collection for that?

It does make me glad that I was able to educate you a little bit about it. It’s not as clear-cut/black-and-white for LDS members as it may seem to be. Very few things in life are. (Though sadly, a lot of my more faithful LDS friends seem to think it is. That’s a whole different can of worms.)

You may cheer now, but remember this the next time a judge twists the plain meaning of the law to reach a conclusion he wants but that you don’t.

That doesn’t strike me as picky or procedural, but rather petty and spiteful. But hey — thanks for playing.

And, uh… whatever you do, the next time you’re having lawful married heterosexual relations, try not to think of all the lawfully married homosexuals doing it at the same time as you. Yep, you definitely won’t want to be thinking about all that hot, steamy, man-on-man, woman-on-woman action taking place within legally recognized marriages while you’re dutifully trying to bang one out for The Big Guy. Do NOT allow salacious thoughts of moist, throbbing, same-sex genitals in passionate frottage to distract you from your Godly mission…

You’re telling people that homosexual behavior is acceptable and moral and forcing them to accept a legal sanction of such behavior.

Ah. The fundamental flaw in your world view. You believe that humans are fundamentally devoid of rights,and human rights only exist when granted by the state. Now that we understand that, we can just completely ignore you.

Also, there’s a two-day period for the proponents to argue why there should be a stay on the ruling. Given their track record of arguments… hopefully no stay.

The Mormon church is putting its opinion out there, just like you are, and both sides hope the state decides in their favor. You can’t fault the Mormon church from getting involved when you’re just as involved.

The ads paid for by the CJCLDS (your tithes, Tim’s, many other people’s) told knowing, deliberate lies about what the failure of Prop 8 would mean. For example, they claimed that churches would be forced to recognize (possibly perform, I can’t remember now) same-sex marriages. That’s impossible in this country, and I would oppose changing that with every fiber of my being. I want to live in a country where churches decide what marriages they will perform or acknowledge. Religious freedom is a critical quality-of-life issue to me.

This is what I meant before then I said that Monster and his minions were bringing the church into disrepute. They used its money to bear false witness against their neighbors. Or don’t Mormons believe in the ten commandments? It seems to me I read that they do.

Bullshit again. If I have the right to marry, that doesn’t change your life in any way. If you get your way and I don’t, it has a huge impact on me socially, economically, and legally. You don’t see that because you don’t want to, and you don’t want to because you’re a homophobe and/or too stupid to see the difference between actual harm and “wahh, I didn’t get my wayyyy” fake childish tantrum “harm.”

Suck it, Utah.

Sck t, Mrmn Chrch!

It’s a privileged sort of view that generally comes from straight people who either are already married, or will eventually get married. They may also have the ability to get a lawyer. Or maybe they are someone in a “domestic partnership” that has successfully done a lot of the legwork with lawyers, because they could afford it.

But they forget a few important facts: It’s not cheap, it’s not easy, and it likely does not and likely will continue not to give the same full benefits and privileges that actual married people get.

This “marriage should be abolished” argument has no basis in current reality, and I’m tired of it. Gay marriage is on the table right now. Gay marriage is the important issue. Abolishing marriage is not going to happen. It’s a fantasy. And even if it were to happen, it’s certainly not going to happen now. But gay people will continue to be discriminated against, while you wistfully wish, upon your privileged stool, that marriage would be abolished. Real people every day are affected by the inability to get married. They are what is important. Not some fantasy of abolishing marriage.

There are actual people out there who either do not vote for pro-gay issues, or specifically vote against them, all the while claiming not to be anti-gay. Yet they are specifically speaking out against or voting against the issues that affect people they claim to care about, because of some extremely ridiculous view that their actions are going to somehow abolish marriage. In reality, they are supporting the bigots. The bigots don’t give a flying monkey why someone votes against gay issues. It’s a vote for them, either way.

Maybe the way marriage is perceived by society will be changed one day, but that can only happen if marriage is expanded to be equal for everyone, and not by keeping it exactly as it is by voting with the bigots.

Here’s another person using the “activist judges” dodge. Why don’t you just admit that you hate gays and don’t want us to get the goodies? I’m so sick of this bullshit.

Equal protection means everyone has the right to be treated equally under the law. California’s law treated same-sex couples differently than different-sex couples; that violates equal protection. Even you can see that, which is why I don’t believe that’s your real problem with this ruling.