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	<title>Comments on: Question: How long would your Ph.D. have taken if everything&#160;worked?</title>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/08/30/question-how-long-wo.html#comment-873735</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-873735</guid>
		<description>The whole process of my PhD (research+writing+defense) took over 7 years. That includes one year in the middle when I lost my funding and didn&#039;t advance much. And I always dedicated a lot of time to teaching, which I love.
But I can&#039;t calculate a &quot;what if&quot; time like you did, David, because in my field (morphofunctional analysis of the skeleton in some rodents) it&#039;s not about experiments that can be successful or fail: it&#039;s about seeing anatomical features and understanding what I see.
Being able to *see* this way took me several years of looking, describing, measuring, dissecting and comparing many specimens, time and again. It could have taken maybe 4 years, but not much less. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The whole process of my PhD (research+writing+defense) took over 7 years. That includes one year in the middle when I lost my funding and didn&#8217;t advance much. And I always dedicated a lot of time to teaching, which I love.<br />
But I can&#8217;t calculate a &#8220;what if&#8221; time like you did, David, because in my field (morphofunctional analysis of the skeleton in some rodents) it&#8217;s not about experiments that can be successful or fail: it&#8217;s about seeing anatomical features and understanding what I see.<br />
Being able to *see* this way took me several years of looking, describing, measuring, dissecting and comparing many specimens, time and again. It could have taken maybe 4 years, but not much less. </p>
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		<title>By: Lanny Budd</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/08/30/question-how-long-wo.html#comment-875015</link>
		<dc:creator>Lanny Budd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-875015</guid>
		<description>Sorry to burst your bubble, but if everything you did in graduate school worked it would take ten years to get a PhD. Your PI would never let you go.

You have to find that middle ground where you are productive enough to get the degree signed. It is in between that place where you such are a clear danger to everyone that you are asked to get the heck out immediately (I would presume that grinding 100g of high explosive with a mortar and pestle qualifies) and that other place where you are so competent that your boss shackles you to your bench and loses the key.

The good news is that S. A. Scoggin&#039;s tale of the above and more is now free for download:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/36568510/A-Novel-and-Efficient-Synthesis-of-Cadaverine</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry to burst your bubble, but if everything you did in graduate school worked it would take ten years to get a PhD. Your PI would never let you go.</p>
<p>You have to find that middle ground where you are productive enough to get the degree signed. It is in between that place where you such are a clear danger to everyone that you are asked to get the heck out immediately (I would presume that grinding 100g of high explosive with a mortar and pestle qualifies) and that other place where you are so competent that your boss shackles you to your bench and loses the key.</p>
<p>The good news is that S. A. Scoggin&#8217;s tale of the above and more is now free for download:<br />
<a href="http://www.scribd.com/doc/36568510/A-Novel-and-Efficient-Synthesis-of-Cadaverine" rel="nofollow">http://www.scribd.com/doc/36568510/A-Novel-and-Efficient-Synthesis-of-Cadaverine</a></p>
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		<title>By: Rocket Scientista</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/08/30/question-how-long-wo.html#comment-873488</link>
		<dc:creator>Rocket Scientista</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-873488</guid>
		<description>I like your point- that to people who don&#039;t do this for a living, it&#039;s often hard for them to understand just how much time goes to things that don&#039;t wind up produced, or in the final anything-- they&#039;re just notes and scraps of things built that never get used.

Sure, the PhD is in the journey, but trying to get my mother to understand that there are few tangible benchmarks is hard.  She asks about progress and I never have a good answer.  I might send her here.

Thus far, I&#039;ve been in my current PhD program 2 years, and I think I&#039;ve gotten done less than a month of *tangible* work, most of which has been VERY recent (and still could not work in the end).  We&#039;ll see how long this takes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like your point- that to people who don&#8217;t do this for a living, it&#8217;s often hard for them to understand just how much time goes to things that don&#8217;t wind up produced, or in the final anything&#8211; they&#8217;re just notes and scraps of things built that never get used.</p>
<p>Sure, the PhD is in the journey, but trying to get my mother to understand that there are few tangible benchmarks is hard.  She asks about progress and I never have a good answer.  I might send her here.</p>
<p>Thus far, I&#8217;ve been in my current PhD program 2 years, and I think I&#8217;ve gotten done less than a month of *tangible* work, most of which has been VERY recent (and still could not work in the end).  We&#8217;ll see how long this takes.</p>
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		<title>By: Chrs</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/08/30/question-how-long-wo.html#comment-873745</link>
		<dc:creator>Chrs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-873745</guid>
		<description>Agreed.  I love it when you get a really pretty result, but it turns out you didn&#039;t control for a few critical things that mean the statistically-gorgeous positive result you got can&#039;t be defended.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed.  I love it when you get a really pretty result, but it turns out you didn&#8217;t control for a few critical things that mean the statistically-gorgeous positive result you got can&#8217;t be defended.  </p>
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		<title>By: aschwa5</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/08/30/question-how-long-wo.html#comment-873747</link>
		<dc:creator>aschwa5</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-873747</guid>
		<description>Mine (in psychology) took about 6.5 years. 2 years was working on my adviser&#039;s research; 2.5 years was resisting my adviser&#039;s attempt to control the rest of my graduate school experience, i.e. squirming until she let me do my own research; 1 year was screwing up my own research. Then I did about 6 months of good research, and took a few months to stubbornly write up. So I think the 6 months estimate is pretty accurate, if a person has their $h!t together. Obviously the massive bureaucracy of large (American) institutions makes that unlikely, even in the best of circumstances. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mine (in psychology) took about 6.5 years. 2 years was working on my adviser&#8217;s research; 2.5 years was resisting my adviser&#8217;s attempt to control the rest of my graduate school experience, i.e. squirming until she let me do my own research; 1 year was screwing up my own research. Then I did about 6 months of good research, and took a few months to stubbornly write up. So I think the 6 months estimate is pretty accurate, if a person has their $h!t together. Obviously the massive bureaucracy of large (American) institutions makes that unlikely, even in the best of circumstances. </p>
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		<title>By: McLuhanesque</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/08/30/question-how-long-wo.html#comment-874521</link>
		<dc:creator>McLuhanesque</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-874521</guid>
		<description>To add my $0.02 worth: My PhD was in social sciences and my research is in organization theory, specifically a new fundamental theory of organization called, &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://valencetheory.pbworks.com&quot;&gt;Valence Theory of Organization&lt;/a&gt;. It took me a total of 5 years - 1.5 years of coursework, comprehensive and getting my proposal approved, 6 months at the end to sew together the final thesis (I did an awful lot of writing along the way during the research process itself), and the rest was interviews, transcriptions, and detailed analysis (about a year and a half on analysis of 500+ single-spaced pages of transcripts). 

During that time, I also had a &quot;hobby research&quot; project on online distance education (2 conference presentations and a book chapter out of that one), and was very active in student advocacy and support. I probably could have completed a year or so sooner, but would have missed out on many of the important experiences and learning, and certainly missed out on many of the deep friendships and relationships. 

A PhD is a transformative process if you allow it so. It can be so much more so than an instrumentalist, qualifying paper chase as many people in the STEM disciplines seem to construct it. 

But then again, I DID mention that I&#039;m in the social sciences, right? :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To add my $0.02 worth: My PhD was in social sciences and my research is in organization theory, specifically a new fundamental theory of organization called, &#8220;<a href="http://valencetheory.pbworks.com">Valence Theory of Organization</a>. It took me a total of 5 years &#8211; 1.5 years of coursework, comprehensive and getting my proposal approved, 6 months at the end to sew together the final thesis (I did an awful lot of writing along the way during the research process itself), and the rest was interviews, transcriptions, and detailed analysis (about a year and a half on analysis of 500+ single-spaced pages of transcripts). </p>
<p>During that time, I also had a &#8220;hobby research&#8221; project on online distance education (2 conference presentations and a book chapter out of that one), and was very active in student advocacy and support. I probably could have completed a year or so sooner, but would have missed out on many of the important experiences and learning, and certainly missed out on many of the deep friendships and relationships. </p>
<p>A PhD is a transformative process if you allow it so. It can be so much more so than an instrumentalist, qualifying paper chase as many people in the STEM disciplines seem to construct it. </p>
<p>But then again, I DID mention that I&#8217;m in the social sciences, right? :)</p>
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		<title>By: JamesMason</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/08/30/question-how-long-wo.html#comment-873506</link>
		<dc:creator>JamesMason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-873506</guid>
		<description>How long would it take if I actually did the damned thing, instead of procrastinating, playing Civ-IV (now #5 is coming!) and generally screwing off?

My wife can never know...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How long would it take if I actually did the damned thing, instead of procrastinating, playing Civ-IV (now #5 is coming!) and generally screwing off?</p>
<p>My wife can never know&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/08/30/question-how-long-wo.html#comment-873764</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-873764</guid>
		<description>Mine is in mathematics and took 6 years. I think it might have been 4 if I had worked</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mine is in mathematics and took 6 years. I think it might have been 4 if I had worked</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/08/30/question-how-long-wo.html#comment-873255</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-873255</guid>
		<description>I think your estimate is pretty accurate. It took me longer to do mine but there was also developing, adapting and learning new techniques and &quot;growing up&quot; time. The whole Ph.D. is not just about the science results, but the maturation of a scientist. If the first, then 6 months should do it, if the 2nd ...

SC</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think your estimate is pretty accurate. It took me longer to do mine but there was also developing, adapting and learning new techniques and &#8220;growing up&#8221; time. The whole Ph.D. is not just about the science results, but the maturation of a scientist. If the first, then 6 months should do it, if the 2nd &#8230;</p>
<p>SC</p>
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		<title>By: dotAaron</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/08/30/question-how-long-wo.html#comment-873513</link>
		<dc:creator>dotAaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-873513</guid>
		<description>I believe you stopped a hacker ring at the same time you did your diss too. Overall, how long did your PhD take? And how long did chasing hackers extend it? :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe you stopped a hacker ring at the same time you did your diss too. Overall, how long did your PhD take? And how long did chasing hackers extend it? :-)</p>
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		<title>By: Courtney</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/08/30/question-how-long-wo.html#comment-874026</link>
		<dc:creator>Courtney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-874026</guid>
		<description>Thank you. I lost track of how many people I secretly wanted to punch in the face while trying to calmly explain the distinction between &quot;negative result&quot; and &quot;the experiment (i.e. controls) didn&#039;t work&quot; during a particularly long and frustrating period during which non-scientific people parroted the sentiment that I could just publish my failures and then other people could learn from them.

In real life, my PhD in pharmacology took 5.5 years. If I could delete the multiple failures (including having to rewrite my entire thesis proposal because the hypothesis was based on something that turned out to be a tissue culture artifact, and the aforementioned 6-month period where controls refused to come out right) and a year-long period of depression where I had trouble dragging myself out of bed due to aforementioned failures, I could have completed my dissertation research in about 6-8 months. Tack on another 3 months to write and two years of coursework, and I put the entire thing at about 3 years.

I&#039;m not in laboratory research anymore.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you. I lost track of how many people I secretly wanted to punch in the face while trying to calmly explain the distinction between &#8220;negative result&#8221; and &#8220;the experiment (i.e. controls) didn&#8217;t work&#8221; during a particularly long and frustrating period during which non-scientific people parroted the sentiment that I could just publish my failures and then other people could learn from them.</p>
<p>In real life, my PhD in pharmacology took 5.5 years. If I could delete the multiple failures (including having to rewrite my entire thesis proposal because the hypothesis was based on something that turned out to be a tissue culture artifact, and the aforementioned 6-month period where controls refused to come out right) and a year-long period of depression where I had trouble dragging myself out of bed due to aforementioned failures, I could have completed my dissertation research in about 6-8 months. Tack on another 3 months to write and two years of coursework, and I put the entire thing at about 3 years.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not in laboratory research anymore.</p>
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		<title>By: aguane</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/08/30/question-how-long-wo.html#comment-873259</link>
		<dc:creator>aguane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-873259</guid>
		<description>My degree is in clinical psychology. If everything had gone right the first time with out all the quirks and hassles along the way, I think it would have taken me no longer than 4 months (including writing time).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My degree is in clinical psychology. If everything had gone right the first time with out all the quirks and hassles along the way, I think it would have taken me no longer than 4 months (including writing time).</p>
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		<title>By: Chocolatey Shatner</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/08/30/question-how-long-wo.html#comment-873772</link>
		<dc:creator>Chocolatey Shatner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-873772</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m mid-PhD, in Library and Information Science.  I did a year of residency, then went back to work at my job full time.  I&#039;ve just begun year 4; I hope to finish in the next year and a half.  I think if I had stayed in school full-time, I would have finished last year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m mid-PhD, in Library and Information Science.  I did a year of residency, then went back to work at my job full time.  I&#8217;ve just begun year 4; I hope to finish in the next year and a half.  I think if I had stayed in school full-time, I would have finished last year.</p>
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		<title>By: Mim</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/08/30/question-how-long-wo.html#comment-873263</link>
		<dc:creator>Mim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-873263</guid>
		<description>So, we&#039;re conflating PhD with Dissertation now?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, we&#8217;re conflating PhD with Dissertation now?</p>
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		<title>By: complicity</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/08/30/question-how-long-wo.html#comment-873267</link>
		<dc:creator>complicity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-873267</guid>
		<description>The question misunderstands the role and purpose of the PhD. The PhD&#039;s outcome is not the thesis - that&#039;s just a byproduct, an artefact, a recording- but the critical thinking, understanding and knowledge of the person who earns the PhD. You&#039;re not the person who started the PhD; you&#039;re someone else.

So, time for reading, understanding, and developing skills, thought processes and judgement usually needs to be factored in.

The PhD is not just doing the experiments and getting the results; it&#039;s formulating the experiments and understanding why you want to run them, and what the results mean in a broader context.

My PhD took just over five years. Even if all the experiments and programming had worked without error, and other human factors had not occurred to slow things up, a decent number of years would still be needed for developing an understanding the field and formulating the right questions. Less than three years seems unlikely, given my starting point.

In much the same way, undergraduate courses take a number of years, and the person who graduates successfully is very different from the younger person who entered the course.

Often, gaining the necessary maturity can&#039;t be rushed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The question misunderstands the role and purpose of the PhD. The PhD&#8217;s outcome is not the thesis &#8211; that&#8217;s just a byproduct, an artefact, a recording- but the critical thinking, understanding and knowledge of the person who earns the PhD. You&#8217;re not the person who started the PhD; you&#8217;re someone else.</p>
<p>So, time for reading, understanding, and developing skills, thought processes and judgement usually needs to be factored in.</p>
<p>The PhD is not just doing the experiments and getting the results; it&#8217;s formulating the experiments and understanding why you want to run them, and what the results mean in a broader context.</p>
<p>My PhD took just over five years. Even if all the experiments and programming had worked without error, and other human factors had not occurred to slow things up, a decent number of years would still be needed for developing an understanding the field and formulating the right questions. Less than three years seems unlikely, given my starting point.</p>
<p>In much the same way, undergraduate courses take a number of years, and the person who graduates successfully is very different from the younger person who entered the course.</p>
<p>Often, gaining the necessary maturity can&#8217;t be rushed.</p>
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		<title>By: ROSSINDETROIT</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/08/30/question-how-long-wo.html#comment-873274</link>
		<dc:creator>ROSSINDETROIT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-873274</guid>
		<description>I work with technology that&#039;s decades old and exhaustively documented.  Nothing like original research or pushing out into unexplored territory.  Even given all the background work behind me, developing a new implementation takes many many hours of frustrating experiments.  It&#039;s basically a process of finding everything that doesn&#039;t work and one or two hints at usable stuff.
Science and technology are badly misunderstood by the public, who see only the results - the pony - and not the mountain of manure that was shoveled to find it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I work with technology that&#8217;s decades old and exhaustively documented.  Nothing like original research or pushing out into unexplored territory.  Even given all the background work behind me, developing a new implementation takes many many hours of frustrating experiments.  It&#8217;s basically a process of finding everything that doesn&#8217;t work and one or two hints at usable stuff.<br />
Science and technology are badly misunderstood by the public, who see only the results &#8211; the pony &#8211; and not the mountain of manure that was shoveled to find it.</p>
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		<title>By: pooya72</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/08/30/question-how-long-wo.html#comment-873275</link>
		<dc:creator>pooya72</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-873275</guid>
		<description>I can imagine for someone in humanities it would take entire 4 years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can imagine for someone in humanities it would take entire 4 years.</p>
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		<title>By: dwdyer</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/08/30/question-how-long-wo.html#comment-873787</link>
		<dc:creator>dwdyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-873787</guid>
		<description>Mine took long enough that I quit.

All the coursework was done, all the cumulative exams were done, it was down only to the work.

I came to conclusion that the area had actually been played out, and I got tired of the academic games.  The work I did actually led me to believe the underlying mechanism was not what my prof. believed it was, but I couldn&#039;t take it that direction.  In some labs, it&#039;s not about the science, it&#039;s about products and hype unfortunately.

Eventually, I just couldn&#039;t do it anymore.  I don&#039;t consider it time wasted in my life, and I really don&#039;t regret anything.  

I could have copped out and wrote a crap dissertation like so many others and I would have ended up in a completely different place than I am now (a completely different field), and where I am now isn&#039;t bad at all.

It&#039;d be nice to lay claim to the doctorate to have letters after my name, I have to admit.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mine took long enough that I quit.</p>
<p>All the coursework was done, all the cumulative exams were done, it was down only to the work.</p>
<p>I came to conclusion that the area had actually been played out, and I got tired of the academic games.  The work I did actually led me to believe the underlying mechanism was not what my prof. believed it was, but I couldn&#8217;t take it that direction.  In some labs, it&#8217;s not about the science, it&#8217;s about products and hype unfortunately.</p>
<p>Eventually, I just couldn&#8217;t do it anymore.  I don&#8217;t consider it time wasted in my life, and I really don&#8217;t regret anything.  </p>
<p>I could have copped out and wrote a crap dissertation like so many others and I would have ended up in a completely different place than I am now (a completely different field), and where I am now isn&#8217;t bad at all.</p>
<p>It&#8217;d be nice to lay claim to the doctorate to have letters after my name, I have to admit.  </p>
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		<title>By: pooya72</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/08/30/question-how-long-wo.html#comment-873276</link>
		<dc:creator>pooya72</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-873276</guid>
		<description>Awesome. We put too much emphasis on the product than the process it took to create it. We view education as means to increase GDP.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Awesome. We put too much emphasis on the product than the process it took to create it. We view education as means to increase GDP.</p>
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		<title>By: jon_anon</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/08/30/question-how-long-wo.html#comment-873277</link>
		<dc:creator>jon_anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-873277</guid>
		<description>My PhD took 10 years (in the field of music theory, at an ivy institution). I haven&#039;t got any laboratory mishaps to blame, but those 10 years include two years of coursework and one year of studying for comprehensive exams; then my first dissertation project didn&#039;t end up working out and I changed topics; my advisor died a year or so into what became my final project; and so I basically developed the tools and did the research and writing alone and unsupervised. There was one year in the middle when I had an instructorship at another university; three other years that I worked as a teaching assistant; and the last three years of my &quot;dissertation work&quot; I had started in my current tenure-track job in a different country, which meant things basically ground to a halt on my dissertation until my current institution was about to fire me for not completing the diss as promised when I started. So I have kind of good excuses, but at the same time it was a project that, looking at it now, should have taken no more than a year of proper work. I didn&#039;t have the sort of narrow, focused existence that many grad students seem to lead, I had a full rich life while I was in grad school which also contributed to everything taking so long. The only thing I would do differently, and the advice I have for anyone else, is: if you get a tenure-track job, do everything to finish your dissertation before September, because it will be IMPOSSIBLE once your teaching and committee work starts, and you have all the responsibilities that junior profs get saddled with these days.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My PhD took 10 years (in the field of music theory, at an ivy institution). I haven&#8217;t got any laboratory mishaps to blame, but those 10 years include two years of coursework and one year of studying for comprehensive exams; then my first dissertation project didn&#8217;t end up working out and I changed topics; my advisor died a year or so into what became my final project; and so I basically developed the tools and did the research and writing alone and unsupervised. There was one year in the middle when I had an instructorship at another university; three other years that I worked as a teaching assistant; and the last three years of my &#8220;dissertation work&#8221; I had started in my current tenure-track job in a different country, which meant things basically ground to a halt on my dissertation until my current institution was about to fire me for not completing the diss as promised when I started. So I have kind of good excuses, but at the same time it was a project that, looking at it now, should have taken no more than a year of proper work. I didn&#8217;t have the sort of narrow, focused existence that many grad students seem to lead, I had a full rich life while I was in grad school which also contributed to everything taking so long. The only thing I would do differently, and the advice I have for anyone else, is: if you get a tenure-track job, do everything to finish your dissertation before September, because it will be IMPOSSIBLE once your teaching and committee work starts, and you have all the responsibilities that junior profs get saddled with these days.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/08/30/question-how-long-wo.html#comment-873278</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-873278</guid>
		<description>Just discovered following site www.buydegree.org which offers a Ph.D. for $210 in 5 days. Gosh. Sounds kinda fishy, but would have saved me tons of money and time. LOL. Is this for real?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just discovered following site <a href="http://www.buydegree.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.buydegree.org</a> which offers a Ph.D. for $210 in 5 days. Gosh. Sounds kinda fishy, but would have saved me tons of money and time. LOL. Is this for real?</p>
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		<title>By: CantEvenGo</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/08/30/question-how-long-wo.html#comment-873791</link>
		<dc:creator>CantEvenGo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-873791</guid>
		<description>I did an LIS PhD in 4 years.  wouldn&#039;t recommend it.  take your time...get your methods classes in, find some theory classes, and marinate in the relative freedom of graduate school.

Tenure track is hard enough.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I did an LIS PhD in 4 years.  wouldn&#8217;t recommend it.  take your time&#8230;get your methods classes in, find some theory classes, and marinate in the relative freedom of graduate school.</p>
<p>Tenure track is hard enough.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/08/30/question-how-long-wo.html#comment-873281</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-873281</guid>
		<description>I realize this post is more about the pace of scientific discovery than about the process of getting a PhD, but there&#039;s a big difference between the work that goes into a dissertation (among the first significant output in a researcher&#039;s career) and the work that goes into a paper ten or fifteen years into a research career.

Those extra 4.5 years in your PhD probably consisted of more than just failed experiments.  If you were to go back now and repeat all the experiments you performed---those that failed as well as those that didn&#039;t---you probably would not take 5 years to do them all; my bet is it&#039;d be more like 1.5 or 2.  If this is true, what explains the discrepancy?

You were probably taking classes during some of those years.  You probably also work more efficiently now than you did then.  But in addition, the point of grad school is to learn how to do research, and that learning is a slow, time-consuming, error-prone process.

My observation has been that if you took a graduating PhD and somehow erased their memory of all their research, experiments, results, conclusions, and writing, but were able to preserve in their minds the lessons about *how* to do all those things that they&#039;d learned over the course of their PhD experience, they&#039;d be able to re-do all the work in about two years.

Of course, in a research career there&#039;s also the ramp-up time for a long-term research agenda, grant-writing, etc., and the apparent time to produce any given result or publication doesn&#039;t necessarily take that into account.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I realize this post is more about the pace of scientific discovery than about the process of getting a PhD, but there&#8217;s a big difference between the work that goes into a dissertation (among the first significant output in a researcher&#8217;s career) and the work that goes into a paper ten or fifteen years into a research career.</p>
<p>Those extra 4.5 years in your PhD probably consisted of more than just failed experiments.  If you were to go back now and repeat all the experiments you performed&#8212;those that failed as well as those that didn&#8217;t&#8212;you probably would not take 5 years to do them all; my bet is it&#8217;d be more like 1.5 or 2.  If this is true, what explains the discrepancy?</p>
<p>You were probably taking classes during some of those years.  You probably also work more efficiently now than you did then.  But in addition, the point of grad school is to learn how to do research, and that learning is a slow, time-consuming, error-prone process.</p>
<p>My observation has been that if you took a graduating PhD and somehow erased their memory of all their research, experiments, results, conclusions, and writing, but were able to preserve in their minds the lessons about *how* to do all those things that they&#8217;d learned over the course of their PhD experience, they&#8217;d be able to re-do all the work in about two years.</p>
<p>Of course, in a research career there&#8217;s also the ramp-up time for a long-term research agenda, grant-writing, etc., and the apparent time to produce any given result or publication doesn&#8217;t necessarily take that into account.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/08/30/question-how-long-wo.html#comment-873282</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-873282</guid>
		<description>
Totally agree; my thesis would have taken 1 year maximum. But I learn not to underestimate the value of the incubation process. This process is when the thesis idea is a burr more than anything else but stays in the background of your mind while doing other things... then, one day, it just clicks, it comes to fruition. then, one does the experiments or runs the models and ready to write.... but it is during the incubation process that slowly and latently we become true researchers.

Conclusions: I would have never become a researcher in 1 year, but the final thesis numbers took 1 year to produce.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Totally agree; my thesis would have taken 1 year maximum. But I learn not to underestimate the value of the incubation process. This process is when the thesis idea is a burr more than anything else but stays in the background of your mind while doing other things&#8230; then, one day, it just clicks, it comes to fruition. then, one does the experiments or runs the models and ready to write&#8230;. but it is during the incubation process that slowly and latently we become true researchers.</p>
<p>Conclusions: I would have never become a researcher in 1 year, but the final thesis numbers took 1 year to produce.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/08/30/question-how-long-wo.html#comment-873283</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-873283</guid>
		<description>&quot;what other numbers people will come up with and especially in other fields&quot;... well, it&#039;s still biochemistry, but it&#039;s protein crystallography... but had the crystals crystallized on my first attempt, and they weren&#039;t mosaic, and the synchrotron schedule wasn&#039;t backed up for almost a year, and refinement package hadn&#039;t had a egregious bug in it that my space group &#039;found&#039;... *then* i&#039;ll wildly estimate: 1.5 years instead of 6.3 i burned for an luck-lost factor of 0.76,  (1.0 - (years_needed / years_required)) </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;what other numbers people will come up with and especially in other fields&#8221;&#8230; well, it&#8217;s still biochemistry, but it&#8217;s protein crystallography&#8230; but had the crystals crystallized on my first attempt, and they weren&#8217;t mosaic, and the synchrotron schedule wasn&#8217;t backed up for almost a year, and refinement package hadn&#8217;t had a egregious bug in it that my space group &#8216;found&#8217;&#8230; *then* i&#8217;ll wildly estimate: 1.5 years instead of 6.3 i burned for an luck-lost factor of 0.76,  (1.0 &#8211; (years_needed / years_required)) </p>
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		<title>By: Davin</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/08/30/question-how-long-wo.html#comment-873541</link>
		<dc:creator>Davin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-873541</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m about to finish mine at a grand total of 3.5 years, straight out of undergrad. I don&#039;t think I could have done it any faster, nor should I have.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m about to finish mine at a grand total of 3.5 years, straight out of undergrad. I don&#8217;t think I could have done it any faster, nor should I have.</p>
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		<title>By: adamnvillani</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/08/30/question-how-long-wo.html#comment-873797</link>
		<dc:creator>adamnvillani</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-873797</guid>
		<description>I only have a Master of Urban and Regional Planning degree, but I had a professor in grad school who said that he set some kind of speed record for finishing his PhD at Rutgers, doing the whole thing in 18 months.

He said that what he did was choose a project for which the data was readily available (I think it was a demographics thing using Census data, not really sure). Also important was that he was motivated by the fact that he was paying for the whole thing himself (his family was poor and living in Puerto Rico).

Obviously this is an extreme outlier... it took me four years just to get my Master&#039;s.

Pretty interesting professor... his lectures frequently went off on tangents, and I learned more about Puerto Rican cockfighting than I ever thought I&#039;d learn in my life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I only have a Master of Urban and Regional Planning degree, but I had a professor in grad school who said that he set some kind of speed record for finishing his PhD at Rutgers, doing the whole thing in 18 months.</p>
<p>He said that what he did was choose a project for which the data was readily available (I think it was a demographics thing using Census data, not really sure). Also important was that he was motivated by the fact that he was paying for the whole thing himself (his family was poor and living in Puerto Rico).</p>
<p>Obviously this is an extreme outlier&#8230; it took me four years just to get my Master&#8217;s.</p>
<p>Pretty interesting professor&#8230; his lectures frequently went off on tangents, and I learned more about Puerto Rican cockfighting than I ever thought I&#8217;d learn in my life.</p>
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		<title>By: Flying_Monkey</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/08/30/question-how-long-wo.html#comment-873286</link>
		<dc:creator>Flying_Monkey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-873286</guid>
		<description>If you&#039;ll excuse me, this post is hardly generalisable outside laboratory science, even if it is even generalisable in that limited sphere, which I am not sure of. As someone also remarked already, the time in a PhD also includes significant training, and also just the time to read more widely than you ever get the chance to again. The question of whether your experiments work or not really only relates to one particular part of the process of doing a particular kind of PhD.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you&#8217;ll excuse me, this post is hardly generalisable outside laboratory science, even if it is even generalisable in that limited sphere, which I am not sure of. As someone also remarked already, the time in a PhD also includes significant training, and also just the time to read more widely than you ever get the chance to again. The question of whether your experiments work or not really only relates to one particular part of the process of doing a particular kind of PhD.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/08/30/question-how-long-wo.html#comment-873287</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-873287</guid>
		<description>is this supposed to be insightful?  what one learns is really how to design &quot;good&quot; experiments from &quot;bad&quot; ones and how to productively use time.  those are longer-term skill building exercises most productively learned in grad school before taking a position of larger responsibility.  sure, once you know the correct experiments to do, in retrospect, doing them takes 3 months.  but the insight gained does take a number of years of getting it wrong.  you might as well have asked how long it took to learn bicycle riding?  da da...10 seconds, once you do it correctly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>is this supposed to be insightful?  what one learns is really how to design &#8220;good&#8221; experiments from &#8220;bad&#8221; ones and how to productively use time.  those are longer-term skill building exercises most productively learned in grad school before taking a position of larger responsibility.  sure, once you know the correct experiments to do, in retrospect, doing them takes 3 months.  but the insight gained does take a number of years of getting it wrong.  you might as well have asked how long it took to learn bicycle riding?  da da&#8230;10 seconds, once you do it correctly.</p>
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		<title>By: phenocopy</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/08/30/question-how-long-wo.html#comment-874058</link>
		<dc:creator>phenocopy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-874058</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m starting my 3rd year in molecular biology, and just had a long talk with my advisor about this very subject.
He says the first two years in lab (discounting year 1, which for us is course work and rotations) involve both learning enough about your system to ask a good question and learning how to do science enough to do the right experiment. Hopefully, these two things dovetail at the same time (beginning of year 4), so that by the time you know the right question to ask you have the skills to design the right experiments. 
THEN you do the aforementioned 6 months or so worth of &quot;good&quot; experiments and knock out a dissertation, but you can&#039;t do that unless you&#039;ve spent a couple years face-palming the fact that your Western didn&#039;t work or you forgot a control  or you only started one culture and it didn&#039;t grow.
Speaking of which, I&#039;m killing time on BB because one of my cultures didn&#039;t grow.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m starting my 3rd year in molecular biology, and just had a long talk with my advisor about this very subject.<br />
He says the first two years in lab (discounting year 1, which for us is course work and rotations) involve both learning enough about your system to ask a good question and learning how to do science enough to do the right experiment. Hopefully, these two things dovetail at the same time (beginning of year 4), so that by the time you know the right question to ask you have the skills to design the right experiments.<br />
THEN you do the aforementioned 6 months or so worth of &#8220;good&#8221; experiments and knock out a dissertation, but you can&#8217;t do that unless you&#8217;ve spent a couple years face-palming the fact that your Western didn&#8217;t work or you forgot a control  or you only started one culture and it didn&#8217;t grow.<br />
Speaking of which, I&#8217;m killing time on BB because one of my cultures didn&#8217;t grow.</p>
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