I may know that intellectually, but what my body tells me deep down inside is: “Meat wrapped in starch, grease and salt? It’s a four-fer!“

Just watch the little video – Nobody needs to die – We can live for ever.

Maybe the guy as the cure, but could he be less polarizing. He attacks everything that does not fit is product (Vitamins supplements and books).

Here is a quote for one of is book.
“This complete two–book set actually teaches you how to prefer a health–promoting diet–style over a disease–promoting diet”

Come on! If you do not choose is way you will die of disease.

I was really interested, but after seeing that site I just want to punch some watermelons and kill some watersprouts.

I was talking to my wife last night, since we’re doing a 10k in a week, and was struck by the idea that a straightforward way to put carbs in perspective is carboloading. Endurance athletes carboload, and often eat very carby foods (white breads, sugary foods, etc) when doing marathons, century rides, and so on. I’ve done a century ride — your body REALLY likes that quick energy around mile 80! But if you’re doing doing endurance athletics… why should you eat carbohydrates? You don’t need quick energy because you’re likely sitting at a computer, walking, maybe cycling 8 miles or running 3 miles. You can eat foods that stick with you longer (proteins) and will fill you up (veggies) and save the carby stuff (delicious) for a mild dessert. Or port!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarabrown/5016106369/

What changed for me? Well, several things and gradually. One was that in visiting places in the world where they could not afford to be so bourgeois about their food choices. I learned to be grateful for anything offered and accept hospitality even when it involved eating meat. I also rejected the egocentric approach that characterises the obsession with personal health in favour of an approach that was about myself as part of a multilevel, sustainable ecosystem. I did the sums on food miles and the environmental impact of what I was doing. One thing that I found through this process is similar to what George Monbiot said in a recent article in The Guardian newspaper , that some of the basic assumptions I had about the environmental impact of meat were just wrong – and you see these wrongly-based assumptions everywhere at the base of the ‘environmental’ arguments for veganism.

However, it is true that most westerners eat way too much meat (and way too much of everything). It is also undeniable that industrial meat-production (and a lot of industrial agriculture more broadly) is both cruel and damaging to the environment. We try to minimise the negative ecological impact of our consumption, and further more to actually create positive ecological and community economic effects. We do this by growing everything that we can (and that’s an increasing amount every year, which will be expanding to include egg-laying chickens and honey-making bees next year, and an orchard of native fruit and nut trees). The land we have – and it’s only just under an acre BTW – is rapidly being transformed into a more varied productive ecosystem than the grass monoculture that it was when we arrived. The rest we get from local farms and we exchange and barter produce and stuff we make. We still eat as little meat as possible, but what we do eat comes from within about 10 miles of where we live and is organic and free-range. I also catch the occasional fish from the nearby lake. We don’t buy imported pulses, and particularly not soy, which whatever the label says, is more than likely to be grown on land that was rainforest.

And no, we don’t spend all out lives doing this (I have a full-time job in a completely different field), it isn’t ‘back-breaking’ labour, it doesn’t rely on extreme theories of diet or neo-puritan morality, but on ecology, community-building and pleasure in being alive (remember that?). This means that other people want to do it too, and they are. They don’t need to be made to feel like moral failures for not following an extreme dietary code. And BTW, it just happens that this all also seems to be very healthy too.

The modern Western industrialized diet is certainly too rich in animal products and refined foods, but I’m puzzled by the urge to jump to the inverse extreme, as if all food wasn’t made of the same basic bricks of protids, sugars and fats…

Because I want to eat what I enjoy.

Wow, that statistic would be in defiance of every vegan I know.

“Since then I’ve learned about what a heavy load getting all your protein from plant sources puts on the brush border enzyme systems in caucasians who take up to seven times as longer to regenerate then other ethnicities (…)”

So to demystify that comment for other readers, what you’re saying is that you took in too many carbohydrates to get the proteins you need, and that put a strain on your system. You probably ate the wrong stuff, then; there are plenty of plant-based foods with a high protein-to-carbohydrate ratio, but you won’t e.g. get that fruit.

Try eating tofu, legumes and nuts a bit more often, and salads and veg a bit less often, and you should be good. Their protein-to-carbohydrate ratio exceeds that of most cheeses (not eggs, admittedly), and is more than adequate for most.

I think the lesson to learn is to never go on any dietary expedition without knowing what you’re doing. Don’t blame it on the diet, blame it on your inadequate understanding. And yes, this advice goes for any diet.

Lastly, don’t call something chronic fatigue when it’s not. Chronic fatigue does not mean you’re tired/lacking energy a lot, it’s a more comprehensive set of symptoms the cause of which is researched with a fair amount of urgency, as any suffered would tell you. Oddly enough, many of the sufferers I’ve spoken to report that a vegan or even raw vegan diet helped them recover.

But I really believe that the secret to being happy and eating/living well is not making food a religious exercise. By which, I mean, I think dogma and hard, fast rules which must never be broken are obnoxious and lead most people to just feel guilty about how they eat, rather than actually eat better.

For instance, for various ecological and social reasons, I’ve been eating a lot less beef. I don’t say that I don’t eat beef, though, because I treat myself to a really good hamburger every once in a while and I enjoy the hell out of it. (Like this one: http://blogs.citypages.com/food/2010/04/blue_door_pubs.php)

The way I figure it, it’s about eating what makes me happy. Most of the time, that’s whole foods and not a lot of meat. But every once in a while, it’s a Blizzard or a Hardee’s meal. And I think that’s probably just fine.

*wrestles with his right hand a bit before losing control of it as it strangles him*

-abs isn’t normally in favor of Nazis, even fictitous ex-Nazi kinds of Nazis, but for Bacon he’ll Godwin this thread and declare the vegetarians the winners

(Seriously now, my wife’s a vegetarian so my diet is fairly low-meat, and I’ve definitely seen improvements in my health as a result. I have a hard time going over 180 lbs. now, and I used to be mid-190s pretty consistently. That said, I love meat, just couldn’t go full-time veggie. Though after I have my chest opened, almost inevitable given a congenital heart issue with my valves, I will almost surely rethink that.)

The stomach does not have a conscience and does not differentiate between plant and animal.

Reactions and allergies to plant-based gluten, amines, salicylates, nightshades, nuts, etc. are quite common. I have found that banana hits me like a sleeping pill. Onion and garlic makes my muscles ache. Nuts and salads go right through, better be near the toilet after that. Gluten makes me itchy and tired. Cutting down on gluten based and processed food has helped me quite a bit.

I do best on lots of chicken, turkey and fish with some select vegetables, legumes and fruits.

In all seriousness, I suspect it doesn’t matter what you eat nearly as much as breaking out of the automatic eating habit, and being a little bit aware of what you eat. That’s the common feature in all of these diets. Clinton was a fatty who would jog to mcdonald’s every day for a fifteen hundred calorie meal as a matter of routine; now that he can only eat other stuff he can’t do that. Although he probably doesn’t count his daily calorie intake, I’d wager he can eyeball it to within a few hundred calories, and that it’s nowhere near what it used to be. Whether he’s eating meat or plants, carbs or fats or proteins, is nearly inconsequential in comparison.

Truly awesome!

I at tofu, temphe, nuts, legumes, took hemp protein powder etc. and made sure I had a healthy whole foods diet. No processed vegan soy meat for me. Protien balance was not the issue, neither was efa depletion. I know those are common issues among vegans, but they were not my issues.

The issue is how protiens from most plant sources are stored in the plant and the enzyme systems that the human body uses to extract those proteins. Particularly the brush border enzyme system in caucasians. It has nothing to do with the protein to carbohydrate ratio.

You’d probably find reading about those systems and the difference in them between different ethnicities and their related traditional diets both interesting and informative.

The other issue was the impact on the hormonal systems cause by a strict vegan diet that does not happen in a vegetarian diet.

I also was officially diagnosed with CFS and know the difference between that and energy problems.

Wow, that statistic would be in defiance of every vegan I know.

Every vegan you know has made it past the 9 year mark? That is great. I’m glad they are doing well.

I lived in an intentional vegan community and had the pleasure of meeting hundreds of vegans including john robbins and howard linman and many other high profile proponents of the vegan diet. Most saw good health results for the first 5 years or so just like me. The 9 year mark was well known and talked about in our circles, I’m surprised that you hadn’t heard this before?

I was raised vegetarian and still promote healthy whole foods mostly plant based diets. I just think most people find greater health from occasionally ingesting animal products in moderation. I think that BOTH extreme diets are potentially unhealthy, that is the problem with extremes.

In fact a well moderated diet is the healthiest diet, any extreme is potentially going to cause issues.

I agree 100%! Find out what makes you feel most healthy and listen to your body.

Wait up, this dairy you speak of is it the stuff produced at places like this http://www.mercyforanimals.org/ohdairy/ ?

Irene Delse: But then what is your take on all the literature on the so called protein myth?

Weird thing how ex-vegans spilling the beans (sorry, spilling the blood and guts) tend to have previously been motivated to their foodchoice chiefly out of some vague health concerns rather than concern for the basic rights of other animals. Is that a coincidence? A well planned vegan diet can fit anyone also in the long run. But time constraints, habits and whatever else one goes through in life might trip things up. That’s life. But no one should just jump ship from anything on a whim. If you feel ill consult a physician and/or dietician. For example, many vegans still downplay the need for B12 supplementing. Despite the fact that it is the easiest thing in the world to supplement (check http://www.veganhealth.org/ for details on that and much more). But ok, some will still fall out, take a break or shift down periodically and later on step it up again. All understandable, that’s how it is with everything. But that does not change the underlying animal rights rationale. I can imagine a time in the future where I will not have the spare time to do leafleting for Amnesty like I do now. But even if that happened I would never do a 180 and start cheering for human rights violations. I would on the contrary regret that circumstances prevents me from doing as much HR activism anymore and would aim to step it up again. The behaviour of “born again meat-eaters” who try to whitewash the blood filled slaughterhouse floors by anecdotes of the crazy love they now have for the taste of someones burned body only indicate that they weren’t very serious about the issue to begin with.