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	<title>Comments on: Password Doesn&#039;t Shear&#160;Firesheep</title>
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	<description>Brain candy for Happy Mutants</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Glenn Fleishman</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/11/10/password-doesnt-shea.html#comment-934670</link>
		<dc:creator>Glenn Fleishman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-934670</guid>
		<description>I said and did not say none/any of those things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I said and did not say none/any of those things.</p>
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		<title>By: agger</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/11/10/password-doesnt-shea.html#comment-934419</link>
		<dc:creator>agger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-934419</guid>
		<description>Open wireless networks are not a security hazard, but badly implemented web sites are.

It&#039;s easy to safeguard against this attack: &lt;i&gt;Always&lt;/i&gt; use peer-to-peer SSL/TLS to transfer username and password, &lt;i&gt;never&lt;/i&gt; transfer this information as clear-text.

Then it makes no difference whether the network is encrypted or not. Better leave it open.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Open wireless networks are not a security hazard, but badly implemented web sites are.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s easy to safeguard against this attack: <i>Always</i> use peer-to-peer SSL/TLS to transfer username and password, <i>never</i> transfer this information as clear-text.</p>
<p>Then it makes no difference whether the network is encrypted or not. Better leave it open.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/11/10/password-doesnt-shea.html#comment-934425</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-934425</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I am pretty sure that WPA uses something like Diffie-Hellman&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Then you are pretty wrong.

&lt;blockquote&gt;As for me, I use a VPN to my DD-WRT router at home, so I am perfectly safe from any eavesdroppers.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Crackable in under ten minutes.  Ten seconds if you are using one of the weaker VPN methods like CIPE, more if you force me to use fancy crap like GRE poisoning to get around IPSEC.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I am pretty sure that WPA uses something like Diffie-Hellman</p></blockquote>
<p>Then you are pretty wrong.</p>
<blockquote><p>As for me, I use a VPN to my DD-WRT router at home, so I am perfectly safe from any eavesdroppers.</p></blockquote>
<p>Crackable in under ten minutes.  Ten seconds if you are using one of the weaker VPN methods like CIPE, more if you force me to use fancy crap like GRE poisoning to get around IPSEC.</p>
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		<title>By: foobar</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/11/10/password-doesnt-shea.html#comment-934687</link>
		<dc:creator>foobar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-934687</guid>
		<description>Even with WPA Enterprise, you could still perform this sort of attack with ARP spoofing. You have your machine repeatedly broadcast an ARP response claiming that your MAC address is associated with the IP address of the gateway and you can intercept all traffic going out of the local net.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even with WPA Enterprise, you could still perform this sort of attack with ARP spoofing. You have your machine repeatedly broadcast an ARP response claiming that your MAC address is associated with the IP address of the gateway and you can intercept all traffic going out of the local net.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/11/10/password-doesnt-shea.html#comment-934435</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-934435</guid>
		<description>WPA/WPA2 with shared password is better than unsecured. But the real message is that 

(a) one should avoid open WiFi hotspots without using a VPN setup that works,

(b) Don&#039;t trust WPA/WPA2 hotspots either, ask for better (802.11x per Glenn) from the proprietor.

(c) Move a MiFi higher on your wish list or take the plunge. Cut the cord.

Do the WiFi routers typically used by the corner coffee shop (not talking Starbucks here) implement 802.11X? iOS, Android, and Win Phone 7 devices? It&#039;s a non-starter for many without that.

I agree that the sites need to do the right thing.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>WPA/WPA2 with shared password is better than unsecured. But the real message is that </p>
<p>(a) one should avoid open WiFi hotspots without using a VPN setup that works,</p>
<p>(b) Don&#8217;t trust WPA/WPA2 hotspots either, ask for better (802.11x per Glenn) from the proprietor.</p>
<p>(c) Move a MiFi higher on your wish list or take the plunge. Cut the cord.</p>
<p>Do the WiFi routers typically used by the corner coffee shop (not talking Starbucks here) implement 802.11X? iOS, Android, and Win Phone 7 devices? It&#8217;s a non-starter for many without that.</p>
<p>I agree that the sites need to do the right thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Glenn Fleishman</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/11/10/password-doesnt-shea.html#comment-934950</link>
		<dc:creator>Glenn Fleishman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-934950</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m trying to recall if there&#039;s a mechanism to prevent this sort of broadcast from the LAN to WLAN side of a router--maybe not. If you had network isolation turned on (a feature in some cheap routers), that might not be possible, but then Hole196 would work in those cases. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m trying to recall if there&#8217;s a mechanism to prevent this sort of broadcast from the LAN to WLAN side of a router&#8211;maybe not. If you had network isolation turned on (a feature in some cheap routers), that might not be possible, but then Hole196 would work in those cases. </p>
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		<title>By: Glenn Fleishman</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/11/10/password-doesnt-shea.html#comment-934951</link>
		<dc:creator>Glenn Fleishman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-934951</guid>
		<description>For sites listed in HTTPS Everywhere, you&#039;re fine. (See Tools &gt; Add-ons, select HTTPS Everywhere, click Preferences.) For others, not! Although there are extensions for force SSL/TLS where possible. But some sites simply aren&#039;t set up for this. A VPN is the smartest way to protect the local link.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For sites listed in HTTPS Everywhere, you&#8217;re fine. (See Tools > Add-ons, select HTTPS Everywhere, click Preferences.) For others, not! Although there are extensions for force SSL/TLS where possible. But some sites simply aren&#8217;t set up for this. A VPN is the smartest way to protect the local link.</p>
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		<title>By: dragonfrog</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/11/10/password-doesnt-shea.html#comment-934445</link>
		<dc:creator>dragonfrog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-934445</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sure you personally are clear on this point, but I think it bears mentioning in the context of this discussion:

Using a VPN back to a trusted home site only protects you against eavesdroppers &lt;i&gt;on the local network where your computer is&lt;/i&gt;.  Of course, that&#039;s where you&#039;re most likely to find the casual punter using Firesheep, rather than someone technically skilled.

An eavesdropper who was eavesdropping at any other link between your home router and the site you&#039;re visiting, still wins.  The attacks to achieve that are rather more complicated, but still potentially manageable.  I&#039;m aware of documented cases of all but the last one happening.  

- An attacker who does any one of a number of tricks with DNS, to redirect your connection to a site they control, wins.

- An attacker who tricks one of your ISP&#039;s routers into sending certain traffic his way, wins.

- An attacker who compromises a server in the same hosting facility as the site you&#039;re visiting, and does the sniffing at that side, wins.

- An attacker on your block who sniffs all the cable modem connections on the block (cable modems are like being on a hub with your neighbours) wins.

The only actual solution, as the Firesheep author pointed out, is for the affected sites to keep all authentication data, including auth cookies, inside SSL.  Anything else is just a partial workaround addressing one avenue of exposure of the real problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sure you personally are clear on this point, but I think it bears mentioning in the context of this discussion:</p>
<p>Using a VPN back to a trusted home site only protects you against eavesdroppers <i>on the local network where your computer is</i>.  Of course, that&#8217;s where you&#8217;re most likely to find the casual punter using Firesheep, rather than someone technically skilled.</p>
<p>An eavesdropper who was eavesdropping at any other link between your home router and the site you&#8217;re visiting, still wins.  The attacks to achieve that are rather more complicated, but still potentially manageable.  I&#8217;m aware of documented cases of all but the last one happening.  </p>
<p>- An attacker who does any one of a number of tricks with DNS, to redirect your connection to a site they control, wins.</p>
<p>- An attacker who tricks one of your ISP&#8217;s routers into sending certain traffic his way, wins.</p>
<p>- An attacker who compromises a server in the same hosting facility as the site you&#8217;re visiting, and does the sniffing at that side, wins.</p>
<p>- An attacker on your block who sniffs all the cable modem connections on the block (cable modems are like being on a hub with your neighbours) wins.</p>
<p>The only actual solution, as the Firesheep author pointed out, is for the affected sites to keep all authentication data, including auth cookies, inside SSL.  Anything else is just a partial workaround addressing one avenue of exposure of the real problem.</p>
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		<title>By: Samizdata</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/11/10/password-doesnt-shea.html#comment-934447</link>
		<dc:creator>Samizdata</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-934447</guid>
		<description>I would say a VPN solution would be the way to go with any public access point, with an extra seasoning of SSL/TLS for the extraparanoid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would say a VPN solution would be the way to go with any public access point, with an extra seasoning of SSL/TLS for the extraparanoid.</p>
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		<title>By: chroma</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/11/10/password-doesnt-shea.html#comment-934706</link>
		<dc:creator>chroma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-934706</guid>
		<description>What I want to know is this: why is security on WiFi so badly implemented? Public key cryptography is nothing new. SSL allows secure communications between two points that have no prior knowledge of each other and it&#039;s over 15 years old. 

WiFi security has gone through three revs that I know of (WEP, WPA and WPA2) and yet they still haven&#039;t gotten it right. What gives?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I want to know is this: why is security on WiFi so badly implemented? Public key cryptography is nothing new. SSL allows secure communications between two points that have no prior knowledge of each other and it&#8217;s over 15 years old. </p>
<p>WiFi security has gone through three revs that I know of (WEP, WPA and WPA2) and yet they still haven&#8217;t gotten it right. What gives?</p>
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		<title>By: Elmae</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/11/10/password-doesnt-shea.html#comment-934458</link>
		<dc:creator>Elmae</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-934458</guid>
		<description>...secured method soon to be called Little Bo PEAP.  oh no, wait, that will be after that&#039;s cracked.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;secured method soon to be called Little Bo PEAP.  oh no, wait, that will be after that&#8217;s cracked.</p>
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		<title>By: dragonfrog</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/11/10/password-doesnt-shea.html#comment-934459</link>
		<dc:creator>dragonfrog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-934459</guid>
		<description>You may be making the same mistake that many of the sites that are vulnerable to Firesheep make - these sites (at least some of them) send the password over SSL, but then set an authentication cookie (or equivalent auth token) that they send around without SSL.

Firesheep ignores the password that was used to set up the session - it just steals the session.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You may be making the same mistake that many of the sites that are vulnerable to Firesheep make &#8211; these sites (at least some of them) send the password over SSL, but then set an authentication cookie (or equivalent auth token) that they send around without SSL.</p>
<p>Firesheep ignores the password that was used to set up the session &#8211; it just steals the session.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Xenu</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/11/10/password-doesnt-shea.html#comment-934474</link>
		<dc:creator>Xenu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-934474</guid>
		<description>On a related note, vegans can&#039;t wear wool.  Someone should make a wool substitute, preferably from tofu.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On a related note, vegans can&#8217;t wear wool.  Someone should make a wool substitute, preferably from tofu.</p>
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		<title>By: Brainspore</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/11/10/password-doesnt-shea.html#comment-934484</link>
		<dc:creator>Brainspore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-934484</guid>
		<description>Well they CAN, they just choose not to. It&#039;s not like they&#039;ll burst into flame if they put on a cardigan. Also I think most sheep are vegan and almost all of them wear wool.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well they CAN, they just choose not to. It&#8217;s not like they&#8217;ll burst into flame if they put on a cardigan. Also I think most sheep are vegan and almost all of them wear wool.</p>
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		<title>By: posthumous</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/11/10/password-doesnt-shea.html#comment-934742</link>
		<dc:creator>posthumous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-934742</guid>
		<description>Security on WiFi is not so badly implemented.  This scenario requires the hotspot model - where everyone would know the passphrase.  The way WPA handles authentication is pretty different from public key crypto, so the SSL comparison is not quite apt- but a somewhat accurate analogy here would be if you had shared the SSL private key with every user.

This post isn&#039;t discussing attacks against deriving that private Pre-Shared Key - which still is limited to dictionary based attacks.  It instead presents the limitations of the security model of having many untrusted users sharing a PSK, which is a critical part of protecting the end user.

If a PSK network has a regularly rotated, suitably long and random PSK that is only shared with trusted users via secure means... your attack surface is greatly diminished, because it would rely on an attacker first deriving that PSK.  However, as Glenn rightly points out, 802.1X is still a far preferable way to secure any WiFi network, but it requires some technical and administrative overhead.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Security on WiFi is not so badly implemented.  This scenario requires the hotspot model &#8211; where everyone would know the passphrase.  The way WPA handles authentication is pretty different from public key crypto, so the SSL comparison is not quite apt- but a somewhat accurate analogy here would be if you had shared the SSL private key with every user.</p>
<p>This post isn&#8217;t discussing attacks against deriving that private Pre-Shared Key &#8211; which still is limited to dictionary based attacks.  It instead presents the limitations of the security model of having many untrusted users sharing a PSK, which is a critical part of protecting the end user.</p>
<p>If a PSK network has a regularly rotated, suitably long and random PSK that is only shared with trusted users via secure means&#8230; your attack surface is greatly diminished, because it would rely on an attacker first deriving that PSK.  However, as Glenn rightly points out, 802.1X is still a far preferable way to secure any WiFi network, but it requires some technical and administrative overhead.</p>
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		<title>By: Glenn Fleishman</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/11/10/password-doesnt-shea.html#comment-934743</link>
		<dc:creator>Glenn Fleishman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-934743</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s possible--and because it&#039;s possible, it means it could easily happen in an automated fashion. So now we have fARPcracker or something. This would be doable with Hole196, which doesn&#039;t have a great impact in the enterprise (where there are many hurdles to cross and easier exploits exist), but in a coffeeshop, easier. Hole196 lets any party spoof the broadcast key for the network that the access point should be the only device to use (there&#039;s no way currently to secure that) and can be used to spoof ARP. 

Drat.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s possible&#8211;and because it&#8217;s possible, it means it could easily happen in an automated fashion. So now we have fARPcracker or something. This would be doable with Hole196, which doesn&#8217;t have a great impact in the enterprise (where there are many hurdles to cross and easier exploits exist), but in a coffeeshop, easier. Hole196 lets any party spoof the broadcast key for the network that the access point should be the only device to use (there&#8217;s no way currently to secure that) and can be used to spoof ARP. </p>
<p>Drat.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Glenn Fleishman</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/11/10/password-doesnt-shea.html#comment-934493</link>
		<dc:creator>Glenn Fleishman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-934493</guid>
		<description>Ow, ow, ow! Much better joke than mine. &quot;Modding up.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ow, ow, ow! Much better joke than mine. &#8220;Modding up.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: roberts</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/11/10/password-doesnt-shea.html#comment-935007</link>
		<dc:creator>roberts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-935007</guid>
		<description>Gibson&#039;s greatest skill is in self-promotion; take everything he says with a grain of... doubt, though he might be spot-on in this instance.  He was loudly and perpetually promoting some kind of security crapware ten or fifteen years ago, which was a laughingstock for those in the know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gibson&#8217;s greatest skill is in self-promotion; take everything he says with a grain of&#8230; doubt, though he might be spot-on in this instance.  He was loudly and perpetually promoting some kind of security crapware ten or fifteen years ago, which was a laughingstock for those in the know.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: wwoods</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/11/10/password-doesnt-shea.html#comment-934524</link>
		<dc:creator>wwoods</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-934524</guid>
		<description>Helpful info, but I feel like you&#039;ve missed the real problem.

Firesheep&#039;s purpose is to make people aware that Facebook, Twitter, Amazon, Yahoo, et. al. are knowingly leaving their users vulnerable - because they&#039;re too cheap or lazy to provide proper secure (HTTPS) connections for their users.

And it&#039;s sad, because it&#039;s not even that hard. They&#039;re already using HTTPS - but only to protect user logins (and, of course, any transaction that actually makes money.) When Gmail made the switch to all-HTTPS early in 2010 it required no extra hardware, increased CPU usage by only 1%, and increased network traffic by about 2% (details &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.imperialviolet.org/2010/06/25/overclocking-ssl.html&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;). But Facebook et. al. failed to design their sites to protect you, their users. You&#039;ve been exposed for years, and they knew it, and because nobody called them on it before now, they haven&#039;t bothered to fix it. 

The onus should not be on individual network administrators to protect Facebook&#039;s users. This is not your local coffee shop&#039;s fault.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Helpful info, but I feel like you&#8217;ve missed the real problem.</p>
<p>Firesheep&#8217;s purpose is to make people aware that Facebook, Twitter, Amazon, Yahoo, et. al. are knowingly leaving their users vulnerable &#8211; because they&#8217;re too cheap or lazy to provide proper secure (HTTPS) connections for their users.</p>
<p>And it&#8217;s sad, because it&#8217;s not even that hard. They&#8217;re already using HTTPS &#8211; but only to protect user logins (and, of course, any transaction that actually makes money.) When Gmail made the switch to all-HTTPS early in 2010 it required no extra hardware, increased CPU usage by only 1%, and increased network traffic by about 2% (details <a href="http://www.imperialviolet.org/2010/06/25/overclocking-ssl.html">here</a>). But Facebook et. al. failed to design their sites to protect you, their users. You&#8217;ve been exposed for years, and they knew it, and because nobody called them on it before now, they haven&#8217;t bothered to fix it. </p>
<p>The onus should not be on individual network administrators to protect Facebook&#8217;s users. This is not your local coffee shop&#8217;s fault.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/11/10/password-doesnt-shea.html#comment-934526</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-934526</guid>
		<description>Several locations in Asia have already adopted WPA(2) Enterprise logins for their public Wi-Fi services.  For example, Wireless@SG in Singapore also offers a Wireless@SGx SSID for protected access.  Likewise, PCCW offers PCCWx.  Even in the Hong Kong airport, the free Wi-Fi provided throughout the airport offers an Enterprise login using a shared username/password.

Using WPA Enterprise has another benefit: it allows devices to auto-connect without having the user manually enter credentials into a standard hotspot portal page before being allowed access.  Wireless@SGx is a great example of this.  It makes it easy for mobile phones to connect automatically when within range of a hotspot and the user is none-the-wiser.  No more custom login scripts for attwifi (for example) getting burned into the iPhone, BB, etc., operating systems.  If attwifi offered attwifix, the login would be automatic AND reliable (something the custom login scripts are not).

I would very much like to see the major hotspot operators in the US start following Asia&#039;s lead on this and offer a WPA2 Enterprise SSID at their hotspot locations.  T-Mobile did this in the US, but as T-Mobile hotspots have pretty much gone the way of the dodo, this doesn&#039;t help.  (T-Mobile also tried to be secretive about the tmobile1x &quot;hidden&quot; Enterprise SSID to get people to install their custom connection manager, rather than simply publishing the details for it.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Several locations in Asia have already adopted WPA(2) Enterprise logins for their public Wi-Fi services.  For example, Wireless@SG in Singapore also offers a Wireless@SGx SSID for protected access.  Likewise, PCCW offers PCCWx.  Even in the Hong Kong airport, the free Wi-Fi provided throughout the airport offers an Enterprise login using a shared username/password.</p>
<p>Using WPA Enterprise has another benefit: it allows devices to auto-connect without having the user manually enter credentials into a standard hotspot portal page before being allowed access.  Wireless@SGx is a great example of this.  It makes it easy for mobile phones to connect automatically when within range of a hotspot and the user is none-the-wiser.  No more custom login scripts for attwifi (for example) getting burned into the iPhone, BB, etc., operating systems.  If attwifi offered attwifix, the login would be automatic AND reliable (something the custom login scripts are not).</p>
<p>I would very much like to see the major hotspot operators in the US start following Asia&#8217;s lead on this and offer a WPA2 Enterprise SSID at their hotspot locations.  T-Mobile did this in the US, but as T-Mobile hotspots have pretty much gone the way of the dodo, this doesn&#8217;t help.  (T-Mobile also tried to be secretive about the tmobile1x &#8220;hidden&#8221; Enterprise SSID to get people to install their custom connection manager, rather than simply publishing the details for it.)</p>
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		<title>By: Cowicide</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/11/10/password-doesnt-shea.html#comment-938374</link>
		<dc:creator>Cowicide</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-938374</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;What foobar above is talking about is ARP poisoning and is very simple to do&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Er, not if you&#039;re talking about his response to me.  I was talking about filtering secure packets and routing them through a USB mobile broadband modem while having the other less sensitive packets route through the vulnerable hotspot.

He said that&#039;d be simple to do, but didn&#039;t offer any commands/code to back that up, of course.  Because he&#039;s FOS, actually.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>What foobar above is talking about is ARP poisoning and is very simple to do</p></blockquote>
<p>Er, not if you&#8217;re talking about his response to me.  I was talking about filtering secure packets and routing them through a USB mobile broadband modem while having the other less sensitive packets route through the vulnerable hotspot.</p>
<p>He said that&#8217;d be simple to do, but didn&#8217;t offer any commands/code to back that up, of course.  Because he&#8217;s FOS, actually.</p>
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		<title>By: foobar</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/11/10/password-doesnt-shea.html#comment-934537</link>
		<dc:creator>foobar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-934537</guid>
		<description>Steve raw-sockets-will-ruin-cwithmas Gibson is still at it, I see.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve raw-sockets-will-ruin-cwithmas Gibson is still at it, I see.</p>
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		<title>By: posthumous</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/11/10/password-doesnt-shea.html#comment-934548</link>
		<dc:creator>posthumous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-934548</guid>
		<description>Wow, several technical issues with this post.

First and foremost... the PSK attack you&#039;ve mentioned is only applicable to networks secured with WPA-TKIP.  WPA2-AES-PSK isn&#039;t subject to the Beck-Tews attack that aircrack-ng uses to exploit TKIP-PSK weaknesses.

Secondly, the implication that 802.1X - be it PEAP, EAP-TLS, or some other, is &#039;simple&#039; to deploy and manage is absurd, especially in the context of a &#039;low tech&#039; zone such as coffee shop.  Sure there are mechanisms built into the APs that make management of users/keys much simpler, but management of it would require a dedicated administrator for the hotspot.  Few cafes or other public hotspot locations have the structure to support the overhead such maintenance would require.

Finally, writing a plugin to Firefox that would interact with the WLAN drivers of a machine (as &#039;simply&#039; integrating aircrack-ng would require) is probably not even possible to do with the permissions that Firefox is normally granted.  So you&#039;d need to create a blended, multi-tool attack- in which case, attackers are already doing it and there&#039;s no need for the &#039;point and shoot&#039; tool of Firesheep anyways.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, several technical issues with this post.</p>
<p>First and foremost&#8230; the PSK attack you&#8217;ve mentioned is only applicable to networks secured with WPA-TKIP.  WPA2-AES-PSK isn&#8217;t subject to the Beck-Tews attack that aircrack-ng uses to exploit TKIP-PSK weaknesses.</p>
<p>Secondly, the implication that 802.1X &#8211; be it PEAP, EAP-TLS, or some other, is &#8216;simple&#8217; to deploy and manage is absurd, especially in the context of a &#8216;low tech&#8217; zone such as coffee shop.  Sure there are mechanisms built into the APs that make management of users/keys much simpler, but management of it would require a dedicated administrator for the hotspot.  Few cafes or other public hotspot locations have the structure to support the overhead such maintenance would require.</p>
<p>Finally, writing a plugin to Firefox that would interact with the WLAN drivers of a machine (as &#8216;simply&#8217; integrating aircrack-ng would require) is probably not even possible to do with the permissions that Firefox is normally granted.  So you&#8217;d need to create a blended, multi-tool attack- in which case, attackers are already doing it and there&#8217;s no need for the &#8216;point and shoot&#8217; tool of Firesheep anyways.</p>
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		<title>By: foobar</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/11/10/password-doesnt-shea.html#comment-934814</link>
		<dc:creator>foobar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-934814</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;What I want to know is this: why is security on WiFi so badly implemented?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It isn&#039;t. This isn&#039;t anything you couldn&#039;t do on a non-switched wired network, and as I pointed out above, you could do it on a switched network just as easily via ARP spoofing.

Hiding your network traffic from others on the local net has never been a design goal. That&#039;s what SSL is for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>What I want to know is this: why is security on WiFi so badly implemented?</p></blockquote>
<p>It isn&#8217;t. This isn&#8217;t anything you couldn&#8217;t do on a non-switched wired network, and as I pointed out above, you could do it on a switched network just as easily via ARP spoofing.</p>
<p>Hiding your network traffic from others on the local net has never been a design goal. That&#8217;s what SSL is for.</p>
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		<title>By: agger</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/11/10/password-doesnt-shea.html#comment-934568</link>
		<dc:creator>agger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-934568</guid>
		<description>That would fall in the category of &quot;badly implemented web sites&quot;. of course they should NOT transfer the session cookie in clear text.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That would fall in the category of &#8220;badly implemented web sites&#8221;. of course they should NOT transfer the session cookie in clear text.</p>
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		<title>By: WeightedCompanionCube</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/11/10/password-doesnt-shea.html#comment-939177</link>
		<dc:creator>WeightedCompanionCube</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-939177</guid>
		<description>Most &#039;vulnerable&#039; sites do use HTTPS, but only for your username and password. Once you&#039;re logged in, everything is in the clear. The concern isn&#039;t what a sniffer can see, it&#039;s what they can do as YOU once they hijack your session.

If the site you are on is truly sensitive, HTTPS is a must. If you&#039;re just futzing around Facebook, you&#039;re not reading or posting anything world+dog+marketing partners can&#039;t see anyway (at least, you shouldn&#039;t be... this IS Facebook after all!), but someone who pretended to be you could cause some damage.

So, the issue here isn&#039;t encryption. The issue is authentication. The only thing between an attacker and your account is a cookie....

I can&#039;t figure out for the life of me why cookies aren&#039;t signed. 

The idea is simple. A site sets a session cookie when you log in. Whoever has that cookie is you, and there&#039;s nothing in the cookie to prove who actually has it. That&#039;s how FireSheep works, it steals those cookies and lets someone else use them.

Now, your username and password are sent over HTTPS when you log in, and if you are successful a cookie is returned to you over HTTPS. If the cookie is given to you securely, why not include a big, unguessable random number with it? That number is a shared secret between you and the site. 

Any time your browser sends the cookie in the future, it never sends the secret part of the cookie. Instead it creates a hash from the session ID, the secret, and another semi-random number, such a timestamp. This hash is a signature. It proves you are the one sending the cookie. On the other end, the site should be able to compute the same hash from what you DO send (the session ID and the timestamp) and what it knows (the secret).

Anyone spying on your traffic with FireSheep or the like is not going to know the shared secret, so they won&#039;t be able to sign cookies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most &#8216;vulnerable&#8217; sites do use HTTPS, but only for your username and password. Once you&#8217;re logged in, everything is in the clear. The concern isn&#8217;t what a sniffer can see, it&#8217;s what they can do as YOU once they hijack your session.</p>
<p>If the site you are on is truly sensitive, HTTPS is a must. If you&#8217;re just futzing around Facebook, you&#8217;re not reading or posting anything world+dog+marketing partners can&#8217;t see anyway (at least, you shouldn&#8217;t be&#8230; this IS Facebook after all!), but someone who pretended to be you could cause some damage.</p>
<p>So, the issue here isn&#8217;t encryption. The issue is authentication. The only thing between an attacker and your account is a cookie&#8230;.</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t figure out for the life of me why cookies aren&#8217;t signed. </p>
<p>The idea is simple. A site sets a session cookie when you log in. Whoever has that cookie is you, and there&#8217;s nothing in the cookie to prove who actually has it. That&#8217;s how FireSheep works, it steals those cookies and lets someone else use them.</p>
<p>Now, your username and password are sent over HTTPS when you log in, and if you are successful a cookie is returned to you over HTTPS. If the cookie is given to you securely, why not include a big, unguessable random number with it? That number is a shared secret between you and the site. </p>
<p>Any time your browser sends the cookie in the future, it never sends the secret part of the cookie. Instead it creates a hash from the session ID, the secret, and another semi-random number, such a timestamp. This hash is a signature. It proves you are the one sending the cookie. On the other end, the site should be able to compute the same hash from what you DO send (the session ID and the timestamp) and what it knows (the secret).</p>
<p>Anyone spying on your traffic with FireSheep or the like is not going to know the shared secret, so they won&#8217;t be able to sign cookies.</p>
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		<title>By: JPW</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/11/10/password-doesnt-shea.html#comment-934574</link>
		<dc:creator>JPW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-934574</guid>
		<description>Is it a trope or a meme?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is it a trope or a meme?</p>
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		<title>By: Cowicide</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/11/10/password-doesnt-shea.html#comment-934831</link>
		<dc:creator>Cowicide</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-934831</guid>
		<description>
If some creative makes a way to filter and funnel authentication packets through your own personal USB mobile broadband 3G device while simultaneously allowing for the other less sensitive packets to funnel through the much faster wifi hotspot.  That creative would get my admiration AND money.

Apple?  You love claiming you&#039;re more secure.  Make OS X more secure with hotspots, stat.  Call it iSecure or whatever... just do this.  And while you&#039;re at it, make it so you can increase your bandwidth by combing bandwidth seamlessly.  I paid for my mobile broadband, let me use it all, Apple.

Gawd, I can&#039;t wait till I can get 4G everywhere.... 
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If some creative makes a way to filter and funnel authentication packets through your own personal USB mobile broadband 3G device while simultaneously allowing for the other less sensitive packets to funnel through the much faster wifi hotspot.  That creative would get my admiration AND money.</p>
<p>Apple?  You love claiming you&#8217;re more secure.  Make OS X more secure with hotspots, stat.  Call it iSecure or whatever&#8230; just do this.  And while you&#8217;re at it, make it so you can increase your bandwidth by combing bandwidth seamlessly.  I paid for my mobile broadband, let me use it all, Apple.</p>
<p>Gawd, I can&#8217;t wait till I can get 4G everywhere&#8230;. </p>
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		<title>By: Glenn Fleishman</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/11/10/password-doesnt-shea.html#comment-934589</link>
		<dc:creator>Glenn Fleishman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-934589</guid>
		<description>First, everyone has the same shared key. The Beck-Tews and other attacks aren&#039;t really practical, anyway, except for very limited packet injection and perhaps DNS poisoning.

Second, 802.1X with the same user name and login is very simple to implement. There&#039;s no user management if it&#039;s one user name, one password, used entirely as a way to create secured key exchange.

Third, this isn&#039;t a limit I know of if you are the owner and have administrative privileges on the Mac, Linux, or Windows machine on which Firefox is running, but I could be wrong. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, everyone has the same shared key. The Beck-Tews and other attacks aren&#8217;t really practical, anyway, except for very limited packet injection and perhaps DNS poisoning.</p>
<p>Second, 802.1X with the same user name and login is very simple to implement. There&#8217;s no user management if it&#8217;s one user name, one password, used entirely as a way to create secured key exchange.</p>
<p>Third, this isn&#8217;t a limit I know of if you are the owner and have administrative privileges on the Mac, Linux, or Windows machine on which Firefox is running, but I could be wrong. </p>
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		<title>By: foobar</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2010/11/10/password-doesnt-shea.html#comment-934852</link>
		<dc:creator>foobar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-934852</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s actually much simpler and more basic than Hole196, and applies to all IP over Ethernet networks, wireless or not.

When you want to send a packet to another machine (lets say 192.168.1.1) on your local network, your Ethernet driver first broadcasts a packet that asks everyone on the network &quot;Who is using 192.168.1.1?&quot; What&#039;s supposed to happen is that the machine using 192.168.1.1 responds &quot;I am, and my Ethernet address is 00:11:22:33:44:55&quot;. However, there&#039;s absolutely nothing preventing anyone else from claiming to be 192.168.1.1. Most operating systems trust whoever answers first. So if you&#039;re just continually shouting &quot;I&#039;m 192.168.1.1&quot; that will almost always be you.

If you do this with the IP address of the gateway (ie, the router), you get all traffic intended to go out onto the internets. So long as you then pass those packets on to the real gateway, everything will still work as it should.

TL;DR:

There is no way to prevent Firesheep-esque shenanigans on a TCP/IP/Ethernet network. Period. If you want privacy you have to use SSL. Also, assume anything Steve Gibson says is nonsense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s actually much simpler and more basic than Hole196, and applies to all IP over Ethernet networks, wireless or not.</p>
<p>When you want to send a packet to another machine (lets say 192.168.1.1) on your local network, your Ethernet driver first broadcasts a packet that asks everyone on the network &#8220;Who is using 192.168.1.1?&#8221; What&#8217;s supposed to happen is that the machine using 192.168.1.1 responds &#8220;I am, and my Ethernet address is 00:11:22:33:44:55&#8243;. However, there&#8217;s absolutely nothing preventing anyone else from claiming to be 192.168.1.1. Most operating systems trust whoever answers first. So if you&#8217;re just continually shouting &#8220;I&#8217;m 192.168.1.1&#8243; that will almost always be you.</p>
<p>If you do this with the IP address of the gateway (ie, the router), you get all traffic intended to go out onto the internets. So long as you then pass those packets on to the real gateway, everything will still work as it should.</p>
<p>TL;DR:</p>
<p>There is no way to prevent Firesheep-esque shenanigans on a TCP/IP/Ethernet network. Period. If you want privacy you have to use SSL. Also, assume anything Steve Gibson says is nonsense.</p>
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