2) Dunno.

3) 99% of guns out there are used to punch paper or hunt. Have you tried it?

re: drunk – I don’t think a drunk has the wherewith all to actually BREAK into a house, but your scenario is a strawman. It isn’t a computer program where “if intruder then arm.gun” – discretion and prudence are required.

I am going to have to respectfully disagree.

Can bird shot kill? Sure.

Will it reliably stop someone? No.

Of course shot placement is key, but it lacks penetration, making an ugly, but shallow wound. In short – use the right tool for the job. You wouldn’t use birdshot on a deer. You wouldn’t keep a bucket of water around instead of a real fire extinguisher.

If you fire on someone it is because you fear for your life or the life of someone else. If that happens you don’t get a redo. Failure may result in death. How much do you want to gamble by using the wrong tool?

Here is one of my favorite sites showing the effect of various rounds:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm < -- penetration tests

If nothing else read the summary on that page.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot33.htm < -- Rock salt

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot35.htm < -- load of dimes

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14_4.htm <– rifle vs shotgun – includes birdshot and buckshot

Oh I agree one shouldn’t be reliant on the police. Hopefully the guy will just fuck off. There is no reason for me to go out there at that point. If the cops don’t come, you just have to do the best you can on your own.

What would you call it? “An unwanted home visitation”?

If said drunk manages to kick down your door and becomes violent – what do you do? Stand there? Let him kick you in the nuts? Wrastle with him? It may not warren using a gun – but it may well come to that.

How is that? In fact the views have been nothing BUT pro-life – the preservation of life. No one has endorsed turning into a one man vigilante. Everyone has said they wouldn’t want to have to use lethal force, but to protect themselves and their families – the option is there.

re: “This whole “guns are just tools” argument is ridiculous.”

If you think knives, axes, and bats (clubs) weren’t first made to kill, then you are deluding yourself (though knives had other uses too.) It doesn’t matter what the original purpose is for. If we didn’t use technology originally developed for war – we would have jack and shit – and jack left town.

re: “There is no argument, weak or not, for handguns and other assault guns.”

Sure there is. Aside from defense and the various forms of competition and rec shooting – we want them? Just because you don’t want them doesn’t mean you get to take mine away.

Should we ban motorcycles and fast sports cars because they pose a larger hazard? Lets all dive 40mph so we have less fatal wrecks. Lets wrap the whole world in bubble wrap with out causing suffocation.

re:”Statistically your more likely to DIE from a gun if you have one in your house then not, that’s a reality check, you endanger your life and the life of your family just by having a gun in your house! ”

And? You are even more likely to die if you have a pool in your house. You are even MORE likely to die if you have stairs in your house. You are even MORE likely to die in a car wreck. Somehow I bet those examples you and most others find as acceptable risks. It is like ‘stranger danger’, media blowing things out of proportion to make things scarier than they are.

re: “Lets use some intelligence here… how DISGUSTING guns are but obviously ethics and morals have little part in many yank lives… if the comments are disgusting and weakly trying to support a sickening stupid tradition in a barbaric backward country, then I will call it out.”

You implore the use of intelligence, yet your tools are insults and emotions. You haven’t made a case that gun owner ship can neither be moral nor ethical. Nor have you made the case of the absurd idea that I don’t have a right to protect myself and my family. In fact you haven’t made a case against guns – other than you find them silly and ‘disgusting’ and you don’t want people to own them. Too bad, buddy. What are you into, lets ban that.

ArghMonkey #81 “Tell me shotguns and rifles are for hunting and I agree, I think hunting is disgusting too but for ‘simpler’ people in our society the thought of killing defenseless animals for fun seems to get them off.”
“Simpler”? How insulting. The “Yee hah! Bang bang!” stereotype is just that; a stereotype. Meat you catch yourself is healthier than the feed lot’d, steroid-infused crap you get in a store. Plus, it gets you outside, for some healthy exercise. It’s like a walk in the park, but with a loud noise and a season’s worth of tasty and cheap meat at the end.

“Statistically your more likely to DIE from a gun if you have one in your house then not, that’s a reality check, you endanger your life and the life of your family just by having a gun in your house!”
Actually, I believe the stat is that you’re more likely to shoot a family member than a crook.

I lived in a sketchy neighborhood but my situation could have happened to anyone, in any neighborhood. A very drunk man attempted to push his way through my front door. I woke up, shotgun in hand and leveled at the door. Prior to busting down the door I yelled at the guy, asking him “who is it?” for lack of a better phrase. He was so drunk that he thought he was locked out of his own house.

The fingerprint system is a joke. Analysis takes far too long and can be bypassed. There are also batteries to consider.

No kids so my shotgun is under the bed, loaded and ready. The badguys don’t for you to open doors or unlock safes. The cops wait for backup. One living cop is worth a dead family of four in their mind. When seconds count – help will be there in minutes.

I don’t think he knew it was a drunk guy before he got his gun. If I lived in a bad neighborhood and someone was jiggling my door’s handle and trying to get into my house in the middle of the night I don’t think it’s wrong to arm yourself and prepare for the worst. It’s not like he popped off 2 shots through the door or anything.

@All
The right to defend yourself shouldn’t be taken away from people. If you want to hide in your closet and *hope* a robber doesn’t find you and kill you, that’s your right. But it should also be your right to defend yourself with lethal force if needed.

@ArghMonkey

1) People who want to do bad things are disgusting. Guns are just something that can be used to do bad things. A can of gas can drive you to school, or burn it down… it’s the actions of the person that will make the difference.

2) Better than what? Showing people a safe way to keep firearms out of the hands of children?

3) There’s nothing ‘wrong’ with people who like guns. 99% of ‘gun’ people are actually nice people who enjoy a hobby. They aren’t bad people because the like the challenge of target shooting, hunting for food/sport or think their life is worth protecting. I’m sure most criminals aren’t ‘gun’ people, they just use them for evil deeds.

Still, if you prefer your gun-related affirmation of life in full-blown unicorn-chaser style, then how about a blind shooter achieving personal goals via formal target shooting?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/41003466@N00/5286119178/

Or how about a cute little girl (I *think* it’s a girl) picking up skills that may someday turn into a college scholarship?

http://www.usashooting.com/news/ppp.jpg

Not to mention having to get 3/4 of state legislatures agree to repeal the 2nd amendment. Never will happen.

So the USA is not comparable to other countries with other cultures.

On topic — a shotgun is a good home defense weapon — as the shot will not go through walls and injure others.

The Supreme Court ruling on the DC hand gun law affirmed that we have the RIGHT to own a gun, but we DON’T HAVE to kill people with them. There are plenty of type of non-lethal ammunition options for home defense.

I never felt like a bad-ass or Rambo after wards. I was was scared shitless. I don’t like the idea of killing another human being. I like the idea of being killed even less. Also, I was never defending my ‘things’. If I was defending my ‘things’ I’d booby trap my house when I was gone. Steal my shit: I have insurance. No. I was defending myself from a goddam immediate potential threat. There is a strange person trying to get into my home (or in my home) and I do not know their intentions towards me. Since they have they are already trying to force themselves into my home I have to assume the worse.

Being able to adequately protect yourself from violence and murder are a basic human right. I fear that some of our fringe left and most western Europeans have forgotten this.