Harry Potter actress in hiding after death threats

chemicalchart

It always saddens me how a person can be held hostage by their parents and extended family because they are considered nothing more than an asset to trade on the open market for their profit.

When I read articles like this I just think “leave them, they are evil bloodsuckers with nothing of their own.” This has nothing to do with honor and every thing to do with sadism and sickness; twisted souls that have long ago lost their way.

Saint Fnordius

And this discussion reminds me of why agnostics have such an uphill battle. “Us versus them” is so deep within our primate brains that it takes effort to overcome, and it’s so easy, such a release to leave it up to someone else to tell you the code.

And then you end up paying the price for belonging to “us”, shunning “them”, and shunning anyone who accepts “them”. How easy it is to simply attack “them” than to readjust “us” to include “them”!

jbldb

This IS a Muslim thing, because Muslim Bashing is Cool among the anonymous snarky intellectual elite.

Seriously, misogyny and oppression of women and gays is universal among ALL religions (even the sacred cows of religious culture, the Tibetan Buddhists, were, until the Chinese arrived, not very nice to openly gay people, although from the rumors I’ve heard, pederasty among the priesthood was quite acceptable… Ahh, priesthoods never change, do they?)

Thank goodness those of us in the West have gotten beyond our hangups with outdated modes of conservative religious thought — erm… uhh… well, except the Mormons, Catholics, Baptists, Fundamentalists, Evangelicals, etc. who make up 76% of the U.S. population.

Mister44

Catholics aren’t all that conservative. A majority of them are Democrat or don’t affiliate themselves with the Republicans.

Anonymous

About why Ms. Azad wouldn’t testify against her family, and hopes to return to them: the thing we call “Stockholm Syndrome” isn’t a pathology, it’s what human beings *do*. It’s a necessary survival skill in any pre-industrial society.

If we survive long enough, and remain high-tech enough that Western-style individualism is a viable strategy, it’ll probably evolve out in a few million years.

Wally Ballou

“misogyny and oppression of women and gays is universal among ALL religions”

Quite right. Where societies differ today is the degree of that oppression, and the extent to which it is sanctioned by the state. The differences are not trivial.

Anonymous

For those saying “Christianity used to be like this”: Christianity is still like this in many parts of the world. If moderate muslims don’t get a pass for the extremists of their religion, than neither do you.

Anonymous

To danfan, sam1148, et al. I have a gift for you.

Seriously: click on the link, and look around the site. After you do, I don’t think you’ll ever again be able to look at the intolerance of “other” religions and cultures in quite the same way.

Mister44

re: “Seriously: click on the link, and look around the site. After you do, I don’t think you’ll ever again be able to look at the intolerance of “other” religions and cultures in quite the same way.”

I am confused about what your point is.

Gloster

“It’s not a Muslim thing.”
Yes it is – Koran 2:221: “Do not marry idolatress unless they believe; a believing woman is better than an idolatress, even if you like her. Nor shall you give your daughters in marriage to idolatrous men, unless they believe. A believing man is better than an idolater, even if you like him. These invite to Hell, while GOD invites to Paradise and forgiveness, as He wills. He clarifies His revelations for the people, that they may take heed.”
(Remember that these are supposedly the words and commands of the almighty creator of the universe. Also note that according to Koran women do not marry but are “given to men” by their fathers; to quote Christopher Hitchens – what stronger evidence could there be that this is all man-made?)

It’s not a fad, it’s not a result of external influence or cultural pressure, it’s one of the original commandments of the religion itself, contained in its most holy book.
Just because other religions have similar or identical issues doesn’t give Islam a free pass. That’s like saying segregation was not an American thing because they were “beating the Negroes” in South Africa as well.

Anonymous

Ya, and Leviticus declares poly-cotton a crime. (Seriously — look it up!)

Holy books are full of all kinds of crap — some of it nice, (judge not, good samaritan) some cruel, (suffer a witch, commands to stone people to death for minor infractions) some nonsensical. (Ezekiel ate a babelfish, and saw robots)

The Qu’ran also says to be kind to Jews and Christians, as they believe similarly.

Cherry-picking religious quotes from any holy book is bad form, and leads nowhere fast.

i_prefer_yeti

What, you’re saying ‘expelliarmus!’ didn’t do the trick for her?

Anonymous

Gloster: do you really want to get into the game of quoting the awful things that the Holy Books tell us all to do? ‘Cause if you do that, you’re going to have a big fucking problem with the Bible.

Gloster

I have a big fucking problem with the Bible and people acting upon it. Your point being…?
- Anonymous
  
  None of the quotes you posted from the Koran come even close to directly advocate honor killing. Your Koran quotes are just general condemnations of sexual sin. Neither will you find any statements advocating killing ones own daughter in the Hindu or Sikh holy scriptures.
  
  On the other hand the quote from the Jewish bible is a direct order straight from God’s mouth to burn at the stake the daughter of a priest who commits acts of sexual dishonor.
  
  Yet what do we see in practice? No case in known history of a Jew murdering his own daughter for adultery, yet widespread acceptance of honor killing as a cultural norm across the Muslim, Hindu and Sikh world.
  
  Religion has nothing to do with it.

Anonymous

Not a “Muslim thing”

Leviticus Chapter 21 verse 9

If a kohen’s daughter becomes desecrated through adultery she desecrates her father; she shall be burned in fire.

Wally Ballou

Anon @54:

It’s true!! The Jews are as bad as the Muslims in following the brutal dictates of their “holy books”.

I used to live in a heavily Jewish neighborhood of Milwaukee. Three or four times a year a daughter would get torched.

Of course, the AIPAC controlled media covered it up.

/sarc
- Ugly Canuck
  
  Nonsense.
  
  A person’s religion just…doesn’t…matter.
  
  Now, repeat that statement as often as necessary for it to sink in.
  
  Now, repeat this:
  
  It is a person’s actual conduct, and the spirit in which it is undertaken (maleficent or beneficent?), which matter. Only those.
  - Wally Ballou
    
    Hey Canuck, your sarcasm detector been checked lately? Down here in the States, there’s a shop in every town that’ll do it cheap.
    - Ugly Canuck
      
      Oh yeah – now I see the “sarc” tag.
      
      Sorry ’bout that.

rexdude

To everyone comparing notes on religion – this mindset is pretty much seen in every faith, i.e religion doesn’t have much to do with it.
Honor killings are rife in North India and Pakistan among both Hindus and Muslims, in the more backward (underdeveloped) villages and districts.

Prof. Steve Dutch of the University of Wisconsin says it best, he calls it ‘The world’s most toxic value system’.

murrayhenson

I don’t know if this is “a Muslim thing” or just some assholes being assholes …but, generally speaking, since when is it in your daughter’s best interest to be on the ass end of an ass-kicking from her own family just because she isn’t dating someone from a particular religion?

Ricky Gervais summed it up pretty well recently on a post on WSJ:

“”Do unto othersâ€¦â€ is a good rule of thumb. I live by that. Forgiveness is probably the greatest virtue there is. But thatâ€™s exactly what it is -Ââ€ a virtue. Not just a Christian virtue. No one owns being good. Iâ€™m good. I just donâ€™t believe Iâ€™ll be rewarded for it in heaven. My reward is here and now. Itâ€™s knowing that I try to do the right thing. That I lived a good life. And thatâ€™s where spirituality really lost its way. When it became a stick to beat people with. â€œDo this or youâ€™ll burn in hell.â€

You wonâ€™t burn in hell. But be nice anyway.”

How damn hard is that and why is it that the really, really religious people often seem to be the first to forget it or to ignore it when it is inconvenient?

Charlie F

“I don’t know if this is “a Muslim thing” or just some assholes being assholes …but, generally speaking, since when is it in your daughter’s best interest to be on the ass end of an ass-kicking from her own family just because she isn’t dating someone from a particular religion? ”

Definitely an asshole thing. Most Muslims are really nice people who do nice things and want the best for their families.
EliZ

That is religion’s “golden rule” because it is religious people who need to be reminded of it. The flock is for the sheep, not the shepherd.

Anonymous

When was the last time you heard of an atheist, an agnostic, or a Darwinist plotting or conducting an honor killing?

cory

FFS, if you think she’s going to hell, isn’t that punishment enough?

Anonymous

This isn’t a muslim thing. An ex of me, of Indian Sindh origin and Hindu, is on the run for her family for about 10 years now because she doesn’t follow tradition. She survived 2 murder attempts, but her younger sister didn’t, she’s killed by her brother a few years ago for the same reason (having a european boyfriend)…

Fundamentalists are never good, of any religion or political view.

Anonymous

> How damn hard is that and why is it that the really, really religious people often seem to be the first to forget it or to ignore it when it is inconvenient?

Because they’re human beings (too). We are all hypocrites. Or most of us, anyway.

Anonymous

Yes, it’s a “Muslim thing”. Make no mistake about it. Sadly, many cultures and religions condone this kind of violence against women.

We wage war over oil, but helping half the human race achieve freedom from sexual tyranny?… That’s a war I’d be willing to fight.

mdh

being more concerned with their family honor than the family members is not a muslim thing, it’s a conservative thing, and conservatives willing to damage what they claim to protect come in all faiths.
- danfan
  
  “being more concerned with their family honor than the family members is not a muslim thing, it’s a conservative thing”
  
  Oh please. Point me to any evidence at all that honor killings are common in any religion other than Islam.
  
  Obviously not all muslims behave this way, but to pretend this isn’t a muslim problem is ridiculous.
  
  Moderate muslims like sandalian above need to battle this turn towards medievalism among their fellow believers.
  - aeryn
    
    I guess you can disregard this depending on your definition of “honor killings,” but when LGBT people are killed by their families, conservative religious views are often implicated.
    
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_LGBT_people#Relationship_between_religious_condemnation_and_violence
  - turn_self_off
    
    I find myself reminded of events in norway that the news classify as “family tragedies”. Basically the male one night goes around the house killing his wife and kids, and ends it all with a suicide. If one check his recent history, one is likely to find him being fired or such, and having increasing financial trouble. And i am talking about people that can trace their ancestry as far back as there is records, not recent immigrants.
    
    Keeping up appearance is still a very potent stick in the western world, no matter how little we like to talk about it.
  - Anonymous
    
    “Point me to any evidence at all that honor killings are common in any religion other than Islam.”
    
    Uh Hinduism?
    
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing#India
  - Mitch_
    
    Here you go:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/10/world/asia/10honor.html?_r=3&ref=general&src=me&pagewanted=all
  - mdh
    
    danfan, you can;t come from a culture that supports such things as corrective rape, gay beating, and government sponsored torture and come down on the high horse against honor killings as the one thing they do worse. All of these things are done by insecure sadistic people, faith is irrelevant where they are, mentally.
    
    and Mitch had a good point there.
  - mdh
    
    “supports” was the wrong word. Replace with “Whose most extreme elements support”..
    
    carry on.
  - mathdemon
    
    Several people beat me to it. Last I checked, caste system didn’t exist in Islam, and marrying outside a caste can earn you a death sentence in Hindu society. Some defend the murder as “necessary social purging.”
    
    And in the West, we don’t call it “honor killing”, we call it “crime of passion”. Happens sometimes when a husband or wife catches their spouse in bed with somebody else. We just blame it on mental instability and cry “tragedy”.
    - MarkM
      
      @mathdemon:
      You cannot equate “honor killing” with the West’s “crime of passion.” An honor killing is anything but passionate: it is dispassionate, cold-blooded, premeditated. A “crime of passion” is neither planned nor premeditated; eg, a barfight, a person catching an unfaithful spouse in the act.
      
      This is emblematic of a certain type of misguided apologetic even-handedness. You can be anti-honor killing without thinking youre being anti-muslim or without “putting it into context.”
      
      There’s no context here. And it’s crazy to equate the harms of Catholicism (yes, the molesting priests and their protective bishops are disgusting and outrageous) and Judaism (forcing women into arranged marriages) with systemic, socially-acceptable murder. (Yes, it’s in the bible to kill the gays and blasphemers: the point is, we dont _do_ it in the West, whatever our “holy book” says.) “We all kill over an idea” to quote @anonymous. Well, No, we don’t. That’s the point of a modern society.
      
      It’s not even islamophobic, either, since as has been mentioned, Kurds and Hindus, to name a few, practice this. This is more an ethnic practice than a religious one.
  - Brother Phil
    
    “Not a muslim thing” as in “Not _just_ a muslim thing”, not as in “Not something that happens with muslims”.
    As mdh said, it’s about conservative arseholes being more concerned with their particular interpretation of family honour than family.
    Whilst Islam has a reputation for this type of conservatism, they are a long way from the only ones – to add to the catalogue listed, I once had a girlfriend whose hindu father (her mother was Irish, by the way) went ballistic when he found out that she was seeing a white boy. She invited me round a few years later: he was the soul of hospitality to my face (whilst cursing “the bloody muslims”), and then cussed a blue streak the moment the door closed behind me.
- Anonymous
  
  mdh: It’s a Muslim and a cultural thing. This happens all too often in the Middle East and other “honor” based cultures and as more Muslims come to the West we’re seeing an increase in honor killings here. This isn’t the first nor will it be the last time we read of this kind of thing. You just won’t hear about it because it will happen to someone out of the public spotlight.
  - mdh
    
    Would you have your faith (or lack of) be entirely represented by the biggest whack job who agrees with you, in name, about it? Would you be so gladly judged by association? Your presumptive rejection of Muslim culture based on the worst among them gives even moderate immigrants reason to cling to the old ways in a new land. Being feared and thus mistreated for no good reason is a mindfcuk. You, anonymous sir, are part of the problem – and I know you’re proud to be.
    
    Your anonymous and xenophobic attitude feeds the fear that builds the walls that cowards who beat their family (and, should this specific case get there, kill their own family) hide behind.
    
    This isn’t a Muslim thing, it’s a domestic violence thing. Work to help or please, please stay out of the way.
Anonymous

danfan: you are weak with the google. That is all.

sandalian

I’m a muslim and feel sick with so called conservative Muslims who tend to hurt people in the name of religion.

I understand that her family migth disagree with cross religion relationship, but threatening his own sister is unacceptable in any way.

“Imagine there’s no countries
It isn’t hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace”

Yes, that song is just an imagination.

Ivan R.

People need a permit to drive a car but are allowed to have children without any other conditions.

zyodei

This incident makes me think of this awkward and very funny prank call I listened to some time ago, where a radio DJ pretending to be a Catholic Italian calls the strictly religious Jewish parents of a young woman pretending to be her boyfriend.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/776011/jewish_girl_prank_calls_her_parents/

The point being, that this is in no way limited to Islam…people get ego identified to their beliefs and culture, and if someone in the family veers from this, they take is as a personal insult on their person and all they stand for. Sad. It’s so important to separate what you believe in in life from who you really are…

Dadum01

It not a ‘Muslim’ thing. These people are influenced by the culturel upbringing.

Anonymous

Christianity used to be like this. Hinduism still is in some parts. Humanity is pathetic. One part of us lashes out at anything that offends us. The other part of us feels that all these people need is love to turn off their hate, and construct the mist inane arguments about accepting this hate in the name of respecting culture. Or we in turn lash out just as blindly and enter into decades long military mis-adventures with no strategic forethought as to the process or the outcome. Amazingly all involved think they are acting for the betterment of humanity in the name of some religious figure or another.

Folks I can only say that we had better turn the space program on. Only space will allow the sane to escape the ignorant masses faster than they can populate the eternal frontier.

Ugly Canuck

The use of extra-judicial punishment, even descending to savage deadly violence, for perceived moral turpitude (even on the part of the closest members of one’s own family) is hardly unique to the Muslim culture.

(For an example of a different kind of honour killing, that of a man killing his own 10-year-old son – and NOT for a sexual matter – in 18th Centruy Sicily, see “Mateo Falcone”, a tale told by the great Prosper Merrimee.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosper_M%C3%A9rim%C3%A9e

But I digress…)

The type of individuals who would carry out such private acts of “justice” were also quite common amongst white Americans in the Southern US States in the 1920s and 1930s.

Ignoring the mote in your own eye, to condemn the beam you perceive in the eyes of those you wish to vilify and attack?

Or charitably seeking to pull others out from the bloody mire in which our own societies have been so recently involved?

PS: I understand that many of the Muslim “rules” or precepts as to matters of sex would be familiar to those who have studied the ancient Judaic rules pertaining to those matters.
But then again, so what?

When religion decays into violent action, it’s no longer religion. IMHO.

Although I know that others would most violently disagree with my view on that.

turn_self_off

Religion have done such a good job of co-opting local traditions that these days it is impossible to say what is culture and what is religion. So trying to label it one or the other is largely futile.

Mitchmaster

Of course it is mystifying how these men can threaten to kill their daughters and sisters. But even less understandable to me is why these women let them get away with it, refuse to testify, etc. Oh I know that it’s a lot like Abused Wife Syndrome, go back time and again to husbands who beat them, but that doesn’t make it any more understandable to me. I dread the day when I read that her father carries out his revolting threat.

Anonymous

>Â Of course it is mystifying how these men can threaten to kill their daughters and sisters.

We all will kill over an idea. If the idea is strong enough in our minds, we will kill over it. We have seen this again, and again, and again throughout human history, on the countrywide level, on citywide levels, within communities, within families. The concept is really nothing new.Â
Anonymous

In the words of Joseph Stalin. “If you pluck a chicken alive, it will stand next to you. “. It’s a well understood problem of humanity.

Anonymous

This is NOT just a Muslim thing, and its insane and short sighted to think so.

Jews in Israel attack their own family members who are seen near arabs, or if they sell/rent land out to said Arabs.

Catholics and Protestants in Ireland have been doing the same for years. Talk to someone of the other religion, prepare to get a beating.

Happens everywhere…

jamiethehutt

To back up #9:

My great aunt married a catholic in the 50s. They were forced to emigrate to Australia together after my family chased them out. 50 years later my Grandmother, despite severe Alzheimers and Dementia (she couldn’t recognize my mother, her own daughter) managed to realize who my great aunt was and started making insults. She would of rather lost all contact and never seen her own sister than have her marry a catholic.

It’s fucking stupid and a darkly embarrassing part of my family history, it makes me really angry remembering how bigoted and narrow minded they could be.

(Unicorn Chaser: A generation before and my family were in Jamaica as missionaries spreading The Word and setting up schools, which I hope bettered the lives of those people)
- mdh
  
  I’ll back that up, my grandmother was disowned for marrying a catholic in the 50′s as well.
- Mister44
  
  It is interesting you say that. I guess in our current ‘melting pot’ type world, we forget that there have been some rather brutal fighting between Catholics and Protestants.
  
  Recently we found and printed out a great-(great?)-aunt’s memoirs. She talked about so-and-so marrying a Catholic and that he seemed like a nice guy (I guess she was expecting cloven hooves and left over bits of baby on his shirt.)

Anonymous

rexdude wrote, “To everyone comparing notes on religion – this mindset is pretty much seen in every faith, i.e religion doesn’t have much to do with it.”

Let me put it succinctly, if I may: “The problem isn’t with *this* religion or *that* religion, the problem is with *religion*.”

Mike the Grouch

1. This is no more a “Muslim thing” than eschewing the use of buttons and telephones is a Christian thing. Just because the Amish refuse to drive cars, doesn’t mean that all Christians do. So maybe some Muslims are like this, but a great many more are not. Trying to chalk this up as Islam is to be woefully and I daresay willfully ignorant.

2. Even if it were universally Islamic, it’s hardly uniquely Islamic. As many others have pointed out, there are proscriptions against mingling with non-believers in most every religious tradition, and the level of separation to be maintained runs the gamut from mild distaste and condescension to violent exclusion. It’s not even just religion that works this way. Race, nationality, gender, sexual preference, education level, and many other traits are all used as a basis for in-group/out-group dynamics at one time or another.

3. I’ll never understand killing one’s own daughter over this type of thing. I believe the proper approach is to meet with her suitor and explain to him about your possession of a shotgun and a shovel and your ability and willingness to use both.

timbaer

Hooray for intolerance!

fnc

I’ll get it…

Christ, what an asshole!

I can’t even -imagine- threatening my daughter’s physical well being over her choice of dating partner.

Mitch_

This has a lot more to do with very conservative people refusing to accept how things are done in the modern world than it does with Islam. Hindus have also done honor killings and lynchings of people who married outside their caste.

Bulone

Not too long ago, one muslim teenage girl from close to my area was strangled to death by her own father with bare hands right before her own birth-mother eyes;because she wears so-called slutty western clothes – jeans. Her father wanted her to wear head-to-toe covered gown. I feel sorry for her.

Nelson.C

For anyone who thinks this might be an exclusively Muslim thing, consider that while there might be lamentations were Ms Azad seeing a white boy, there wouldn’t be any of this nonsense about threatening her life. It’s not a Muslim thing, it’s an anti-Hindu thing: naked prejudice, pure and simple.

Toxa

C’mon /b/ what are you waiting for?

In return, tits!

benher

She was dating a male and they have yet to disfigure her or bury her alive? Damn liberals!

EliZ

I hope her brother is outed as the bottom in a multiracial, multireligious gay gangbang.

Ito Kagehisa

If you purposely kill your own child you are guilty of a crime at least as great as anything that child could have done. You should top yourself in some intensely hideous and painful way, like throwing yourself into an incinerator or a rendering plant.

Nelson.C

I have a terrible vision about how this is going to go. Eventually the brother or the father is going to get back in touch with Ms Azad and convince her that everything’s hunky-dory again, then when she’s let her guard down and re-established relations with her family again, kill her and her boyfriend.

She didn’t bear witness against her family because she feared it would make things worse, but how bad does she think this is going to get? It’s alien to the mainstream British sensibility, but it’s not as though this kind of stupid Muslim vs Hindu shit has never happened before.

MarkM

The reason why she risks death at the hands of her own family is: she’s dating someone of a different religion. 1) And you wonder why things are so bad on planet Earth. 2) I love these family values religion instills.

Of course, it’s actually atheism that causes all the world’s problems, wars, crime, diseases, and cultural malaise. I keep forgetting.

Antinous / Moderator

All they need to hear is how eager we are to “send them back” (the worst thing that could happen to Ms. Azad)

Where would you send her back to? She’s a second generation Brit. Is this all an elaborate set-up to finally get rid of the Normans?

johannabanna

Apologies for typing before thinking. I understand that citizens aren’t supposed to be deported, but that doesn’t stop some people from going on about how they should be for lack of sufficient assimilation (I’m not pointing to any specific comment here).

ackpht

I suspect the woman won’t testify against the men because they’re her family. Not hard to understand.

jimbuck

The golden rule has a serious flaw.

“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” assumes everyone wants to be treated as want to be treated. The truth is, people are different in many ways — including the way in which they want to be treated.

It should be “Treat others the way they want to be treated!” [ within the boundaries of local, state, and federal laws]

Talia

After a bit of contemplation, I see what you’re getting at, but still that sets aside the self-indulgent twats, so I must be pedantic and say “Yeah, not so much.”

It’s very upsetting to me when anyone from any religion feels the need to hide themselves from their loved ones.
whoknew

Stealing from a philosopher/theologian I forget the name of, your application is “immature” (not in any pejorative sense). The “mature” application incorporates the Other’s preference. Thus, I will do unto others as I would have them do unto me, by first inquiring into how they would like to be treated, as I would always want that to be done to me. Thus, the suicide bomber or abusive father cannot cloak his actions in theGolden Rule by simply claim that they would want to be treated that way. No?

johannabanna

To all of you who are so appalled by the behavior of this woman’s family that you wish to send them all back or keep them confined to their backwards homeland, why don’t you do one better and start a movement to set up safe places for people like Ms. Azad so that they aren’t afraid to testify against the bastards? Seems the prosecutor was happy to get what charges he could against her brother. Only her fear of reprisals was standing in the way of a harsher sentence. What makes you think Ms. Azad would have been better off had her family never been in the UK? If you’re really concerned for her, do something to actually help her. If there were more safe places in the west, do you really think fundamentalist chickenshits would even want to come here? As it stands, they know quite well that no one here (or at least very few people) are willing to give material support, including “protection services”, to their wayward family members. All they need to hear is how eager we are to “send them back” (the worst thing that could happen to Ms. Azad) to know that we really don’t give a shit.

GavinD

So her conservative family got all bent out of shape because she dated some Hindu guy, but not that she acted in a western film? Something about graven images, appearing on screen, acting in general? Aren’t there Islamic injunctions against women doing, uh, everything?

oh wait. The Harry Potter franchise is super-lucrative. Now this makes some sense. I’m sure she doesn’t bring home Radcliffian sums, but I’m also sure it’s a decent payday nonetheless. So that would be why her family allowed the very Un-Muslim acting gig to happen. I suspect if Guy X was a filthy rich Hindu prince, Ms. Azad’s family would be much more agreeable to her dating him.

Besides, nowadays, one’s daughter may not date a man at all. So the Azads should leave well enough alone.

Antinous / Moderator

I’m also sure it’s a decent payday nonetheless.

Up to the seventh film, she’s said “Hi, Harry!” twice and “Are you going to dance with me?” once. I doubt that she’s raking it in.

According to IMDb, both her parents were born in the UK, which if true, says something about the extent of ghettoization there.
- Grumblefish
  
  Or possibly self-ghettoisation, combined with the UK government not requiring everyone to abandon their original culture and become one with the melting-pot, meaning that those who do not want to integrate are not forced to.
  
  In the same way, it’s not the fault of the Spanish that lots of British people who’ve moved there are living in Anglophone communities and don’t bother to learn the local language and culture.

alec999

At the core of the matter. All three goat-herder religons; Hebrew, Christian and Muslim noticed long ago that men think differently than women, that men see the world differently than woman.They then decided that the way men think and see the world is right and good and the way women think and see the world is wrong and evil.
This belief is a the core of all three “great” religons. While progressives have moved away from this belief fundamentalists still firmly believe this.
Hail Eris.

Nelson.C

Just to be clear, I’m not happy about the situation, and I don’t want to blame the victim, but the situation is what it is. I want Ms Azad and her beau to have long and happy lives and for their families to be reconciled and a magnificent cross-cultural wedding to be celebrated with rainbow-farting unicorns and everything… but I’m afraid that isn’t going to happen in this particular case.

I’d like my prognostications to be a self-negating prophecy, but I’m not going to be surprised if it isn’t. Disappointed, yes, but not surprised.

Anonymous

Religion, in my view, preaches unity but always results in division which is violence. Im not ultimately against violence, i think physical violence is natural. Psychological violence, though, is division through association with an illusion of the ideal. Running away from what is, and running towards an ideal has only led to more suffering.

William George

Fucking disgusting.

But unless I’m mistaken, she has the same legal protections and rights as everyone else in the UK. If she doesn’t use them to the fullest, she will be making a mistake.

Mister44

re: Leviticus

You people need context in your Biblical quoting. They were for a specific group of people, at a specific time. Namely Moses and his people after the Exodus. While some of these laws seem barbaric, they were pretty standard for the time.

I guess there might be some Jewish sects that feel bound to it – but nearly all Christians do not, as they are bound be a new covenant by Christ.

re: Someone said something about women acting like “sexualized westerners”.

Your women – Muslim women – are sexual creatures. They aren’t acting ‘westernized’, they are acting more naturally than what their repressive culture is used to allowing.

turn_self_off

Unless i am very much off target, Jesus never nullified the laws inherited from Moses…
- Mister44
  
  Not explicitly, but yes, Christ was supposed to fulfill all the old laws, and created new ones to follow. Some things like ‘do unto others’ and the 10 Commandments carried over, while things like eating Kosher and purity rituals were not.

Anonymous

“Moderate muslims like sandalian above need to battle this turn towards medievalism among their fellow believers.”

No we don’t, are you battling the scourge of cyclopian evangelicism and right wing dogma in the US?

Do I tell my fellow Christian or Jewish friends to battle the bad seeds in their faith?

Just for future reference when one Muslim takes the moral high ground that their version of Islam is better (especially to another Muslim) things don’t go smooth. Imagine a pakistani immigrant cab driver and an american born muslim having this discussion — it goes nowhere, believe me, I’ve tried. They think they are the purest but are indeed the most dogmatic (remind you of anyone in your own faith?)

The Raven

We can call the struggle “jihad.”

Many Jewish and Christian moderates do struggle with the radicals in their own faiths. I personally don’t enjoy being criticized (and I am fringe anyway, so almost no-one cares what I think), but, well, if a criticism is valid and within reason, so be it. I figure I can stand being criticized a lot better than, say, young women can stand death threats.

Croak!

anharmyenone

The worst form of prejudice is to lower your expectations of people. Assuming that all people of every culture are equally good people, then the same high standards of behavior that you would expect of your neighbor living next door to you should be applied to every person on the globe. Cultural relativism is nothing but lowering standards for people because you think them incapable of living up to standards. Cultural relativism is bigoted. Say “no” to bigotry. The greatest respect you can pay to all the people of the world is to hold them all to the same high standards. Humanism requires no less than to celebrate virtue and to expect virtue. Having a dim, pessimistic view of mankind is anti-human and anti-humanist. The United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights IS truly universal and is not just a “western” or a “Judeo-Christian” view of human rights. It is normative for all people on Earth. It states in article 2:

” Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.”

And furthermore article 16 says:

” 1. Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
2. Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
3. The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.”

mdh

I’m really not sure anyone here has argued that these actions are “okay” because there is a cultural difference. Whose comments inspired your railing against relativism, and is there some chance you read that into what you saw here? I have seen people arguing that there is a cultural difference and that does need to be taken into account generally when it comes to people from different places liking different stuff, but not seen people use relativism as as a mitigating factor for minimizing this situation involving cross cultural violence.

I think when you have a hammer, everything looks like a lot more like a nail, do you agree?

Do you see that those who would use violence to prevent outside influence will remain entirely unmoved by a UN resolution?

Jack

Going to balance this out with my own experience with strict insanity in Judaism:

1) When my mom had to be hospitalized for a short while in a Brooklyn hospital near Borough Park, I was a tad disconcerted to see how many adolescent Orthodox and Hassidic girls were â€œhospitalizedâ€ for nervous breakdowns. I didnâ€™t understand why they were the majority population on one ward until I was told that most of them were at that age where they are setup in an arranged marriage. Wonderful! They canâ€™t mentally cope with being forced into a life choice they did not ask for, freak out and now they loose their mind and are hospitalized.

2) Related to this, while I went to public school in NYC, virtually every Orthodox or even mildly religious Jewish girl I knew had their life screwed up by the pressure to keep up with religious standards/beliefs. One gal I knew in high school just disappeared as far as the secular world is concerned. Another I ran into when my dad was hospitalized and oddly she and other Orthodox young women came through the hospital to proselytize to the patients. When I recognized her, she was practically a zombie who ran away when her partner in running around the hospital called her to leave.

Then there is that whole Catholicism abuse which we all know about but most forget when stuff like this happens.

So yes, a stronger light is shed on Muslim abuse nowadays in the Western world. But donâ€™t fool yourself into thinking other religions treat others better. Itâ€™s varying degrees of dehumanization and subordination that ultimately punish women for daring not to fall in line and become a baby factory for the faith they are connected to.

LightningRose

Imagine no religion…

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1015/1293978130_ecbdbce6f6.jpg

Jupiter12

Pol Pot tried to ban religion and the results were tragic. How about “imagine peaceful religion” instead. Not all religious groups support war and violence.
- Anonymous
  
  Pol Pot tried to ban existing religion and replace it with his own worship, and the results were disastrous. Do you really think Lennon wanted to execute everyone with glasses?
- LightningRose
  
  “Pol Pot tried to ban religion and the results were tragic.”
  
  A specious argument at best. Pol Pot, Stalin, etc ad infinitum, did not commit their atrocities in the name of atheism.
  
  The sort of crap referred to in the article will continue so long as people value ignorance and superstition over science and reason.
  - Anonymous
    
    Pol Pot, Stalin, etc ad infinitum, did not commit their atrocities in the name of atheism.
    
    Sadly, you are most pompously wrong; Stalin did indeed commit several atrocities in the name of atheism. Pol Pot, however, was anti-industrial, anti-technology and anti-education more than he was anti-religion.
    
    It seems like atheists are always sticking up for Stalin. It’s like they can’t handle the idea that maybe some atheist somewhere was less than perfect so they just careen into full-scale cognitive dissonance.

Mister44

I’m sure sure the moderate Muslims, who vastly outnumber the Fundamentalists, will have organizations set up to protect people like her in situations like this.

rebdav

A verbal rebuke is different than a death sentence. The law in PLO areas is death penalty for anyone who sells to a Jew. Some nationalistic Jews will argue with a friend or relative for doing the same hardly a death sentence.
In Israel one of my very moderate Muslim smoking buddies(smoking is the best way to get people to talk here) said that family is honor, honor is the reason for life, and it is one of the main reasons that they will never have peace with the Jews is because we claim to believe in Allah(the one God) but the women act like sexualized westerners, how can they trust us. Israeli girls often get harassed because of an assumption that they are all walking sex toys. I have gotten the same thing from Israeli Druze(monotheistic non-Muslim religion) guys who while fully modern still have the same closed ideas about their sisters and wives and easy Israeli women. Honor killing is the the reason Gay Muslims only come out in the US, Europe, or Canada where they will not be executed by the state or honor killed.
It is difficult to understand or explain to an outsider since westerners truly believe they have completely colonized the world culture and everyone deep down has a little EU or American flag waving in their heart.

Wally Ballou

No, of course “westerners have not completely civilized the world culture”.

If Hindus and Muslims want to run their homelands like hellholes in which adult women are beaten and killed for choosing whom they wish to date, I can’t do much about that.

But this story, as we note, is datelined Manchester, not Dubai or Kashmir. I hope that this sort of shit is something with which Britons will not put up.

Unfortunately, in recent years we have learned that the once freedom loving Britons will put up with quite a lot, haven’t we??
- Nelson.C
  
  With respect, Wally, don’t talk shite. Britons will not ‘put up with’ this; it’s completely abhorent, and nobody â€” not even, I believe, the majority of British muslims â€” wants this happening here. It’s against the law, and when the inevitable happens and Ms Azad is found dead, her brother and father will be investigated and if they have been careless enough to leave evidence, they will be prosecuted, and if found guilty, banged up for the rest of their naturals, because the jury and judge will find it to be an abhorent crime.
  
  If you can suggest a way of short-circuiting this process in the most crowd-pleasing manner that isn’t an affront to freedom and natural justice, I’d be interested to hear it.
  - Wally Ballou
    
    “and when the inevitable happens and Ms Azad is found dead..they will be prosecuted”
    
    You can’t imagine how comforted I now feel after hearing this.
    
    Since the court has already cleared the family of the charges of making death threats, I hope the young lady is a fast runner.
    - mdh
      
      Yeah, and we all see how you offered non-abhorrent alternatives there rather than just going for an emotional jab there. Law is not decided in your gut. We need rules to enforce rules. If you dislike this outcome, blame the system – it can’t currently prosecute someone without sufficient evidence being presented (which she refused to do) – do you have a better alternative? Or are you going to try to make me feel badly too?
    - Nelson.C
      
      I wasn’t trying to comfort you. Sadly, having chosen not to co-operate with the law on this, there is only one way it’s likely to go for Ms Azad. In a free country â€” which the UK largely still is, believe it or not â€” the law has very limited powers to apply when a victim chooses not to co-operate.
      
      Like someone who is persuaded by local thugs not to bear witness about a crime committed by said thugs, it will not make the situation any better for the victim, just leave her open to further intimidation. But unlike the situation when the thugs are a street gang or the Mafia or Al Qaeda, there’s no organisation to target with infiltration, electronic eavesdropping, informers or raids; just a family and a community.
      
      What is the law to do? It’s not just a rhetorical question, it’s an honest one. What freedom-loving measure can you propose to change this situation for Ms Azad?

sam1148

I’m sure you could find other examples of ‘redneck’ types of any religion beating down their daughters, and sons, etc.

But only in some cultures will you find seemingly well off, and well educated peopled doing the same as a matter of course.

Even Cat Steven said he would execute Salmon Rushdie if he was asked too from his religious leaders.
From Wiki: Yusuf released a statement the following day denying that he supported vigilantism, and claiming that he had merely recounted the legal Islamic punishment for blasphemy.
Robertson: You don’t think that this man deserves to die?
Y. Islam: Who, Salman Rushdie?
Robertson: Yes.
Y. Islam: Yes, yes.
Robertson: And do you have a duty to be his executioner?
Y. Islam: Uh, no, not necessarily, unless we were in an Islamic state and I was ordered by a judge or by the authority to carry out such an act – perhaps, yes.

mdh

But only in some cultures will you find seemingly well off, and well educated peopled doing the same as a matter of course.

yeah, conservative cultures. Also, I’m not sure what your quote shows other than a disdain for recovered hippie burnouts, and that too is universal.

You would seem to be saying that “some people” (cough cough, the swarthy cultures, cough cough) are just too unlike “us” to be reconciled.

In reality, much of the US was that conservative within the last century. Our brutal conservatives burned people at the stake 300 years ago. Our brutal conservatives displayed hung people from trees somewhat regularly within the last 75. Our brutal conservatives would destroy and terminate benefits from an honorary career of service to the national defense over a private matter until LAST WEEK.

Better to offer “some people” a leg up than a thumb down. Then we ALL get there faster.
- sam1148
  
  Better to offer “some people” a leg up than a thumb down. Then we ALL get there faster.
  
  And better it should confronted head on and given a ‘thumb down’ instead of tolerated as cultural thing.
  - mdh
    
    Who said tolerate it as a cultural thing?
    
    If you say understanding is permissive tolerance then the only option left is to beat them into compliance…. and with that we’ve arrive at the beginning of the thread, haven’t we?
    
    and we know which side you’re REALLY on.

Anonymous

Since the Daily Mail has long been a Nazi mouthpiece, any story about the behaviour of non-Aryans must always be taken with a bucket of (non-kosher) salt.

Antinous / Moderator

A specious argument at best. Pol Pot, Stalin, etc ad infinitum, did not commit their atrocities in the name of atheism.

What were you saying about specious arguments?

After 1928 a mass closure of churches continued until 1939, by which time there was only a few hundred left. According to the official data of the government Commission on Rehabilitation: in 1937 136,900 Orthodox clerics were arrested, 85,300 of them were shot dead; in 1938 28,300 arrested, 21,500 of them shot dead; in 1939 1,500 arrested, 900 of them shot dead; in 1940 5,100 arrested, 1,100 of them shot dead.

Anti-religious campaign and persecution in the 1920s and 1930s

LightningRose

Orthodox clerics represented a political threat to Stalin’s power. At that time anyone believed to represent a political threat to Stalin’s power was treated the same way.

This is not the same thing as killing in the name of atheism.

Thanks for playing, try again.
- Antinous / Moderator
  
  Orthodox clerics represented a political threat to Stalin’s power.
  
  Just like the Inquisition and the Crusades were carried out to counter political threats to the entrenched hierarchy of Catholicism. Fancy that.
  
  This is not the same thing as killing in the name of atheism. Thanks for playing, try again.
  
  When the facts don’t fit your narrative, you just change them. You can’t imagine how much you come off like a religious fundamentalist.

Anonymous

Racism is judging people by their affiliation rather than individual character. It’s not racist to note that honor killing is a problem in countries like Pakistan; it is racist when you blame Pakistanis in general for that, rather than the ones responsible.

Harry Potter actress in hiding after death threats

More at Boing Boing