Major NYT piece on Stuxnet worm: Israel-US operation to stunt Iran nuke program?

A major piece in the New York Times just now published: "Operations at Israel's Dimona complex are among the strongest clues that the Stuxnet computer worm was an American-Israeli project to sabotage the Iranian nuclear program."

Boing Boing editor/partner and tech culture journalist Xeni Jardin hosts and produces Boing Boing's in-flight TV channel on Virgin America airlines (#10 on the dial), and writes about living with breast cancer. Diagnosed in 2011. @xeni on Twitter. email: xeni@boingboing.net.

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The Snowden Principle

Anonymous

The Israelis are trying to delay an Iranian nuke dropping on Tel Aviv. This is the least they can do.
Jack

*facepalm*

You know if Israel really wants to dispel all of the crazy Zionist conspiracy theories out there, this sure as hell is not the way to go about it.

Nukes are not going away. And insanely elaborate delaying tactics like this sell the concept of disarmament short.
piecar

Anyone else here feel like they’ve just discovered that the world is a Michael Chricton style techno-thriller?
retchdog

I think the folks at Dimona know What’s Going On and for some reason they think delaying tactics against Iran are fruitful. The implications are obvious.
- Anonymous
  
  Actually this was an amazingly smart move. Combined with the pressure of ecconomic santions making the replacement of costly equiptment even more difficult as well as the paranoia that will delay things further it allows time for other more permanent solutions to come to the front. We should be applauding this completely non aggressive tactic rather than the usual fly by bomb missions we often rely on.
Avram / Moderator

I’m not as panicked as my government wants me to be about the prospect of a nuclear-armed Iran, but if my government is going to be trying to prevent that from coming about, I’d rather they use clever computer hackery than bombing and/or occupation.
- Jack
  
  Well, I kind of agree & understand but how can anyone fully stop an entity that is truly determined to have something from having that something?
  
  In the long term I simply see it as giving Iran more inspiration to commit a first strike. Especially since U.S./Islraeli involvement plays into every conspiracy theory out there.
  
  Cold War 2.0, youâ€™re out of beta!
  - ocschwar
    
    “In the long term I simply see it as giving Iran more inspiration to commit a first strike. Especially since U.S./Islraeli involvement plays into every conspiracy theory out there.”
    
    To quote Spinal Tap, Iran’s goes up to 11. Islamists literally believe Israel sent sharks on to Egyptian tourist beaches. (Minus the frickin’ laser beams on their heads.) It’s not like Israel can enhance their paranoia any further.
    
    In the mean time, internal discontent within Iran makes stalling the nuclear program with means like this a brilliant tactic. If the Islamists fall, Iran will still have a nuclear program, one that the Israelis sabotaged to prevent nuclear arms, but which is still capable of refining uranium for peaceful purposes.
    - Jack
      
      It’s not like Israel can enhance their paranoia any further.
      
      And as a Jew, might I also point out Israel has itâ€™s own issues with paranoia. I mean, did you know that the local food co-op I belong to might be the hotbed anti-Israeli sentiment since someone complained about Israeli sourced red peppers? For the record, the peppers are still for sale because they taste good.
      
      Also, if you are Jewish and live in the U.S. you might be privy to hearing some relative (or in my case most all) bemoaning the â€œliberalâ€ media in the U.S. that somehow they see as a threat to Israelâ€™s existence? Or get some e-mail forward about how some stupid trivial web poll on CNN/BBC or something else must be swayed in Israelâ€™s favor or else the â€œleftieâ€ media in the U.S. will push through an anti-Israeli agenda.
      
      There is a tremendous amount of paranoia on both sides.
      
      You know what my solution is? Israel admits they have nukes and then disarm. Itâ€™s enough already.
      - ocschwar
        
        “You know what my solution is? Israel admits they have nukes and then disarm. Itâ€™s enough already”
        
        You don’t have any skin in the game. Bear in mind almost every Israeli has a relative that tried to gain entry to the United States at a time when it was a matter of life and death, and was not able to. Bear in mind that to Israelis, this is not idle talk at the water cooler.
- Anonymous
  
  Do you have any input on what Iran should do about a nuclear-armed Israel and the USA openly threatening to bomb them?
  
  If the US or Israel made Stuxnet, can’t we just call it a crime that deserves prosecution? Why try to spin it with lesser-evilism? It’s still illegal (unlike Iran’s nuclear program), provocative, and dangerous. But, yeah, better than bombing or occupation (is this our new minimum standard for high crimes?).
  - ocschwar
    
    “Do you have any input on what Iran should do about a nuclear-armed Israel and the USA openly threatening to bomb them?”
    
    Here’s an idea: Iran could negotiate a peace treaty with Israel and a rapproachment with the USA. With Obama in the White House, this is their best opportunity.
    - Anonymous
      
      ocschwar: “Here’s an idea: Iran could negotiate a peace treaty with Israel and a rapproachment with the USA.”
      
      OK, so:
      
      Despite that the USA previously orchestrated a coup in Iran to remove their democratically elected leader and prop up a monarchy in order to gain access to their oil; despite that they aided Iraq in invading Iran (while supplying them with chemical weapons); despite that the USA is currently engaged in military occupations of Iran’s neighbors while calling for regime change in Iran, sanctioning Iran, and threatening them with bombing, despite this -
      
      - And despite Israel’s occupation of Palestine; Israel’s multiple invasions of it’s neighboring states; the flouting of UN resolutions, the Geneva Conventions, and the Goldstone Report; and despite being a nuclear-armed country that unlike Iran is not a signatory to the IAEA, despite this -
      
      - And despite the fact that Iran has NEVER attacked or even threatened to aggressively attack the USA or Israel-
      
      - You think that Iran should negotiate a pre-emptive “peace treaty” with Israel and “rapproach” the USA – SIMPLY TO AVOID BEING ATTACKED IN AN ILLEGAL ACT OF AGGRESSIVE WARFARE?
      
      You suggestion is an example of American-exceptionalism at it’s worst.
      
      ocschwar: “With Obama in the White House, this is their best opportunity. ”
      
      Actually, Obama’s Iran policy is IDENTICAL to Bush’s.
      
      Recall that Iran has actively sought better relations with the US only to be snubbed with every attempt. For example, here are the two (ignored) personal letters written by Ahmadinejad to both Bush and Obama:
      
      (TO BUSH:)
      
      “If billions of dollars spent on security, military campaigns and troop movement were instead spent on investment and assistance for poor countries, promotion of health, combating different diseases, education and improvement of mental and physical fitness, assistance to the victims of natural disasters, creation of employment opportunities and production, development projects and poverty alleviation, establishment of peace, mediation between disputing states, and extinguishing the flames of racial, ethnic and other conflicts, were would the world be today? Would not your government and people be justifiably proud?
      
      Would not your administration’s political and economic standing have been stronger?”
      
      http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/09/AR2006050900878.html
      
      (TO OBAMA:)
      “(T)he nations of the world expect an end to policies based on warmongering, invasion, bullying, trickery, the humiliation of other countries by the imposition of biased and unfair requirements, and a diplomatic approach that has bred hatred for America’s leaders and undermined respect for its people. They want to see actions based on justice, respect for the rights of human beings and nations, friendship and non-intervention in the affairs of others. They want the American government to keep its interventions within its own country’s borders.”
      
      http://www.campaigniran.org/casmii/index.php?q=node/6803
      
      Now compare this with Obama’s pre-election speech to AIPAC.
      Please read:
      
      OBAMA: “There is no greater threat to Israel â€” or to the peace and stability of the region â€” than Iran. Now this audience is made up of both Republicans and Democrats, and the enemies of Israel should have no doubt that, regardless of party, Americans stand shoulder to shoulder in our commitment to Israel’s security. So while I don’t want to strike too partisan a note here today, I do want to address some willful mischaracterizations of my positions.
      
      The Iranian regime supports violent extremists and challenges us across the region. It pursues a nuclear capability that could spark a dangerous arms race and raise the prospect of a transfer of nuclear know-how to terrorists. Its president denies the Holocaust and threatens to wipe Israel off the map. The danger from Iran is grave, it is real, and my goal will be to eliminate this threat. ”
      
      http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91150432
      - ocschwar
        
        “Despite that the USA previously orchestrated …”
        
        France and Germany started rapproachment in 1950. And you think Iran should keep a grudge over 1953? Your rant has the distinct stench of “let’s you and him fight” hanging over it.
      - querent
        
        “And you think Iran should keep a grudge over 1953?”
        
        53 to 79 brings it a bit closer.
        
        “It means your children ride a bus that is not likely to be blown up or shot at.”
        
        Buses in Israel are not likely to be blown up or shot at.
        
        “And they have a skin in the game. You don’t.”
        
        In no way does this diminish his/her opinions. You did not say explicitly that it does, but the seeming implication should be addressed.
        
        The obvious: the one world power that has actually used nukes (against 2 civilian targets) is in no position to decide which regimes are responsible enough to have them.
      - querent
        
        To be clear, I say buses in Israel are not likely to be shot at, and I mean that in the precise sense. The probability is low.
        
        That peace is the best path to security is also within the realm of the obvious. Tear down the wall and end the apartheid. Find peace in the 67 borders.
      - Anonymous
        
        Anonymous,
        Let’s not forget that embassies are sovereign soil. By attacking and seizing the US embassy, Iran DID attack the United States, just not the majority of it.
        
        The Iranian Hostage Crisis is not something that either side is really ready to let go of.
      - social_maladroit
        
        You think that Iran should negotiate a pre-emptive “peace treaty” with Israel and “rapproach” the USA – SIMPLY TO AVOID BEING ATTACKED IN AN ILLEGAL ACT OF AGGRESSIVE WARFARE?
        
        Well, let’s see…unless Iran really wants to be attacked over its nuclear program, that might actually be a good idea. (Here’s another good idea: turn off your Caps Lock key.)
        
        It’s funny how much of what you say is true, if overblown, and yet it’s also true that Iran’s Holocaust-denying, 9-11 ‘truther’ of a leader is a fruit loop who refuses to recognize the legitimacy of Israel.
      - The Chemist
        
        I don’t think you’re quite clear on who Iran’s leader is.
      - Anonymous
        
        social_maladroit: “Well, let’s see…unless Iran really wants to be attacked over its nuclear program, that might actually be a good idea. ”
        
        Are you actually suggesting that countries should abide by the wishes of the USA/Israel or risk being bombed? That’s still the “supreme international crime” as defined by both the Nuremberg Principles and the UN charter, right?
        
        social_maladroit: “It’s funny how much of what you say is true, if overblown,”
        
        How much is true? You did not dispute anything.
        
        social_maladroit: “Holocaust-denying”
        
        Your link does not contain Ahmadinejad denying the holocaust.
        
        In fact, Ahmadinejad clearly does not deny the Holocaust:
        
        http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2007/09/24/2007-09-24_irans_president_i_dont_deny_holocaust-3.html
        
        social_maladroit: “9-11 ‘truther’ ”
        Your link has Ahmadinejad saying this:
        
        “I did not pass judgment, but don’t you feel that the time has come to have a fact-finding committee?” Mr Ahmadinejad told reporters on Friday.
        The fact-finding mission can shed light on who the perpetrators were, who is al-Qaeda… where does it exist? Who was it backed by and supported? All these should come to light.”
        
        I agree with him, if for no better reason than because I’d like to see the video of the plane hitting the Pentagon (and, no, I don’t mean a holographic missile, I mean a plane). Plus I’d like to see Bush and Cheney testify in public, under oath, and without holding hands. The 911 Commission wouldn’t allow it. I don’t even care if we get around to a proper investigation of the put options & anomalous trading activities, the Cheney Energy Task Force, the wire transfers between Atta and the head of Pakistani Intelligence, the wargames & Norad, ABLE DANGER, fake Bin Laden videos, WTC7, or what those noises from Cheney’s basement were about.
        
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/2559617.stm
        
        social_maladroit: “who refuses to recognize the legitimacy of Israel.”
        
        Actually, Ahmadinejad supports the Two State Solution.
        
        “If Palestinians Vote for Agreement with Israel: ‘Whatever Decision They Take is Fine With Us’ ”
        
        http://blogs.abcnews.com/george/2009/04/ahmadinejad-sup.html
        
        Who is the real culprit blocking the Two State Solution? Has Israel stopped building settlements? Have they withdrawn the pre-June 4, 1967 boundaries? Have they ceased their occupation and blockade of Gaza?
        
        They even rejected Obama’s attempted bribe.
        
        http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/netanyahu-rejects-u-s-guarantees-in-exchange-for-renewing-freeze-1.316517
ericmartinex1

Let’s see German multi-national in compliance with US (probably with German government approval since US probably payed a nice sum to Siemens to buy the data rights so Siemens wouldn’t lose anything and German Government received some “security” and tax revenue on the side).

Too bad Manning didn’t leak this so it would negate any “positive” effect – and more importantly Julian could have been a multi-millionaire as opposed to a single digit millionaire.
Anonymous

I think the strategy of the US and Israel is to delay Iran until either

1. They loose interest in making a bomb.

or

2. Delay long enough that the relatively young population changes the culture enough that the religious conservatives loose power and influence. That way they would be much less likely

The advantage of delay is ultimately for Israel to continue to expand their territory without repercussions of Islamic states.
- Antinous / Moderator
  
  Delay long enough that the relatively young population changes the culture enough that the religious conservatives loose power and influence.
  
  Unfortunately, most of our political moves end up recruiting more religious conservatives. Al-Qaida was tiny until we decided to destroy it. If we continue our campaign against the Taliban, it’ll have a seat on the UN Security Council in another decade or so.
teapot

I just want to take a moment to extend my middle finger to all the windbags flappin’ their traps over the last months about how irrelevant the Wikileaks releases are because ‘we knew it all already’. The amount of verification and cross-referencing they have allowed for the public and mainstream journalists has so far been phenomenal.

One can support the state of Israel and the sentience of the Jewish people and completely oppose Israelâ€™s tactics and behavior. My opinion is not unique. Many folks in Israel right now oppose a lot of what Israel does.

@Jack: you’re awesome.

Here’s an idea: Iran could negotiate a peace treaty with Israel and a rapproachment with the USA.

@oschwar: Here’s an idea: you can go down to your local bank and transfer all the funds to me.

Your suggestion could not sound more one-sided and self-interested.
- ocschwar
  
  “Here’s an idea: Iran could negotiate a peace treaty with Israel and a rapproachment with the USA.
  
  @oschwar: Here’s an idea: you can go down to your local bank and transfer all the funds to me.”
  
  @teapot: So you think Iran standing down from a confrontation against the United States would only benefit the United States?
  - teapot
    
    No I just think your suggestion strongly suggests that it is solely on the shoulders of Iran to make moves and concessions for a peace treaty to be negotiated… Typical Israeli Government rhetoric.
    
    Tell me, if your neighbours and enemies all had AKs and all you had was a handgun, wouldn’t you feel like you needed to upgrade? If they threatened to bomb you, and started assassinating the few people you know who can provide AKs, wouldn’t your resolve and determination increase?
    
    Whether or not Israel’s nuclear program is technically legal is quite irrelevant. Israeli Government agents (particularly Mossad) have repeatedly shown disregard of the law and the development of the Israeli nuclear program undoubtedly involved nefarious and illegal acts.
    
    The fact which all these “Arab states”, who according to you would attack Israel in an instant without its precious face-melting deterrent, know full-well America’s support of Israel. The nuclear deterrent exists whether or not Israel has a big red button of their own.
    - ocschwar
      
      “No I just think your suggestion strongly suggests that it is solely on the shoulders of Iran to make moves and concessions for a peace treaty to be negotiated… Typical Israeli Government rhetoric.”
      
      And, just what exactly does Iran have to concede, besides warmongering and saber rattling?
      
      Oh, right: nothing. There is not one damn thing Israel or America want from Iran.
    - ocschwar
      
      Antinous: care to note anything I’ve said that’s actually wrong? I know this is not the site for in depth discussion on Mideast conflict, but that doesn’t mean throwing facts instead of glib asides is “provocation”.
      - Antinous / Moderator
        
        Your tone is quite combative. I understand that you’re angry, but you’re losing more readers than you’re winning. And it’s becoming irksome. I strongly recommend letting your comments sit for five minutes and re-reading before you hit Submit.
        
        As to this not being the site for in-depth discussion on Mideast conflict, you might want to look as some past threads. That sounds like an excuse for not providing the depth that might shed some light on your hostility.
      - Jack
        
        It’s your continual berating tone and the constant use of patronizing terms and statements towards other mixed in with your closeted racism towards Arabs. Not to mention your mocking of everyone posting from this site being in the U.S. coupled with you yourself residing in the U.S.
        
        Your main argument here is: “Who are you American liberals? Israel is always right! And I am the self-appointed mensa candidate who will prove this.”
      - teapot
        
        Your rage seems to have made you click the wrong reply link there.
        
        Antinous: care to note anything I’ve said that’s actually wrong?
        
        Just because you choose to justify your own beliefs with…. your own beliefs doesn’t make them true.
        
        And please stop using the word glib! You know what a thesaurus is, right? They have them on the internet these days!
Anonymous

@Jack. I imagine they are hoping to delay it long enough for various social forces in Iran to take hold.

It turns out.. if you bomb and kill civilians it tends to unite folks.

With a computer virus stopping a nuclear program though.. it’s a bit more amorphous.
ackpht

This surprises anyone? Israeli motivation backed by American money and know-how. Who else would benefit?

What do they hope to achieve? Delay operational readiness of Iranian nukes as long as possible, and hope for the next election -or revolution- to usher in a friendlier regime. At the very least they can delay a potential conflict and look for other ways out.

The Chinese also have a lot of hacking know-how, but their attentions seem focused on the US.
AirPillo

You can’t hug your children with nuclear worms!
social_maladroit

These “Israelis vs. Arabs” posts always seem to end in endless arguments over who’s more wrong, when they’re all in the wrong, to one extent or another. To this bystander, the inability to compromise, and to see things in black and white, is a hallmark of all parties involved.

Meanwhile, personally, I don’t want to see a nuclear-armed Iran, regardless.

The idea of such an effective industrial sabotage program as Stuxnet, created in order to inhibit one nation’s nuclear program, makes for fascinating reading. I hope Wikileaks’ cables eventually turn up more information about it.
Jack

You don’t have any skin in the game. Bear in mind almost every Israeli has a relative that tried to gain entry to the United States at a time when it was a matter of life and death, and was not able to.

I don’t have any skin in the game? WTF does that mean. My parents are Holocaust survivors who fled post-war Poland to Israel, lived there a short bit in the late 1950s to early 1960s before deciding living in a war zone was not their style, and moved to the U.S.

One can support the state of Israel and the sentience of the Jewish people and completely oppose Israelâ€™s tactics and behavior. My opinion is not unique. Many folks in Israel right now oppose a lot of what Israel does.
ocschwar

“I don’t have any skin in the game? WTF does that mean.”

It means you don’t have to run for cover within 15 seconds every time Hamas sends a rocket at you. It means your children ride a bus that is not likely to be blown up or shot at. It’s not your caboose that is on the line.

” My parents are Holocaust survivors who fled post-war Poland to Israel, lived there a short bit in the late 1950s to early 1960s before deciding living in a war zone was not their style, and moved to the U.S.”

Bully for you. Israel has a lot of people who did not and do not have that option.

“One can support the state of Israel and the sentience of the Jewish people and completely oppose Israelâ€™s tactics and behavior. My opinion is not unique. Many folks in Israel right now oppose a lot of what Israel does.”

And they have a skin in the game. You don’t.
- Jack
  
  It means you don’t have to run for cover within 15 seconds every time Hamas sends a rocket at you. It means your children ride a bus that is not likely to be blown up or shot at. It’s not your caboose that is on the line.
  
  How does what you describe have anything to do with a secret and illegal nuke program? Also, itâ€™s a fairly well-known fact that the majority of Hamas rockets have done nothing but make a lot of noise and blow up nowhere near anyone or any target. Hamas is a bunch of schmucks, but each time Israel sends tanks, aircrafts and troops into Palestinian land when an off kilter rocket lands in a grass field, it’s the literal definition of overreaction.
  
  Bully for you. Israel has a lot of people who did not and do not have that option.
  
  Yes, I know. They are my relatives.
  
  And they have a skin in the game. You don’t.
  
  Your use of “caboose” and “skin” analogies are 100% hilarious. Here is my opinion: If Israel wants a nuke free Iran, the chances of that happening are zilch. Delaying tactics are only that: Delaying tactics. The urge to have a nuclear weapons program is strong. So you know what the best tact is? Not to enter Cold War 2.0, but to come clean about the nukes, disarm and then force Iran to disarm as well.
  
  But here is the problem. Israel has barely existed for 50 years and is continually expanding borders. Buffer zones, farms, water areas, etc… It’s all a land grab. Because the reality is the amount of land Israel has with the population growth as it is is completely unsustainable. Especially in the case of amount of land an water needed to sustain a growing population.
  
  That’s really where all of this insanity on Israel’s part comes from.
  
  And yes, I do have skin the the game. As a Jew on the planet Earth, if Israel decides to do something as crazy as nuking Iran with Israelâ€™s “non-existant” nukes, then guess who suffer? All Jews in the world.
  
  So please, your logic of “skin in the game” and “caboose that is on the line” is the kind of bunker mentality that leads to nothing good.
- Antinous / Moderator
  
  ocschwar,
  
  You’re commenting from the US. Unless you had a tummy tuck in the Middle East and left some tissue there, I have no idea what your whole “skin in the game” rant is about. If you can’t make a point without yelling at Jack, zip it.
  - ocschwar
    
    Correct, I am posting from the United States, to point out that the Israeli governments that have worked to obtain nuclear weapons while at the same time maintaining secrecy and ambiguity about it, and striving to frustrate rival attempts at nuclear armament, did it because the lives of their citizens are at stake, not because they strive to be the villains in a James Bond movie. That is not to say that belligerent idiots who cheerlead Israeli militancy from the safety of the United States are any better than handwringers who think Israel should just lay down its arms.
    
    “To be clear, I say buses in Israel are not likely to be shot at, and I mean that in the precise sense. The probability is low.
    
    That peace is the best path to security is also within the realm of the obvious. Tear down the wall and end the apartheid. Find peace in the 67 borders.”
    
    Buses are not being bombed or shot at because the wall is an effective means at frustrating those bombings. Those have become mighty rare ever since the wall went up. As for the “apartheid” claim, the former president of Israel has just been convicted by an Arab Israeli judge. That is precisely the kind of glib inanity that is the hallmark of people opining about Israel who have never lived there. When you live there, you have a vested interest in studying closely the motivations of the people who try to kill you, in order to have a clear idea on what to do. That means listening to what they say, and when they say they want to destroy your nation state, to take them at their word about it.
    
    “How does what you describe have anything to do with a secret and illegal nuke program? ”
    
    You mean the nuke program that has given the Arab states a distinct incentive not to pursue all out conventional war against Israel? It’s not illegal. Israel has never signed on to any treaty forbidding it.
    - Jack
      
      You mean the nuke program that has given the Arab states a distinct incentive not to pursue all out conventional war against Israel? It’s not illegal. Israel has never signed on to any treaty forbidding it.
      
      Nobody is saying itâ€™s legal or illegal, but it is profoundly hypocritical and does nothing to defuse the conspiracy theories many have against Israel.
      
      Also, you pointing out this secret nuclear program as giving Arab states “a distinct incentive” to not pursue war is a laughable canard at best. Itâ€™s like some “mall cop” who over protects himself with all kinds of gadgets and doodads and then pats himself on the back and says “You see, thanks to my hard work the food court is not a bloodbath.”
      
      It’s 2010. I grew up in the 1970s and heard every piece of pro-Israel propaganda on Earth and believed it at the time. Then I became a teenager and the 1982 Lebanon War happened. The self-justification seemed forced and it never sat well with me. And then incident upon incident happened afterwards.
      
      I don’t support anti-Israel groups nor do I support pro-Israel groups. I am literally baffled by Israel’s behavior and hope some sanity enters the political equation there. It’s really all power-plays, land-grabs and other nonsense at this point.
      
      Israel is barely 50 years old. It should grow up already.
      - ocschwar
        
        “Nobody is saying itâ€™s legal or illegal, but it is profoundly hypocritical and does nothing to defuse the conspiracy theories many have against Israel.”
        
        Actually, it’s querent who (wrongly) said the Israeli nuclear program was illegal. And it is not hypocritical either. Nor does it have any effect on conspiracy theories, which were doing just fine long before the nuclear program. The first blood libel in the Middle East was in 1840, long before Israel or Israel’s nukes.
        
        “Also, you pointing out this secret nuclear program as giving Arab states “a distinct incentive” to not pursue war is a laughable canard at best.”
        
        The brutality with which Arab states pursue wars is something Israelis cannot ignore, but which you, as an American resident, can ignore and glibly opine about at your leisure. I suggest you read up on Sudan’s civil wars, Syria’s internal war in 1983, the Iran Iraq war, Yemen’s civil war, among the many other conflicts which Israel has sought to deter with the threat of nuclear escalation, before calling this “laughable.” From where you sit, you can laugh.
        
        “Then I became a teenager and the 1982 Lebanon War happened. The self-justification seemed forced and it never sat well with me.”
        
        So, here you are expressing an opinion you developed as a teenager, and you go on to call on Israel to grow up.
      - Jack
        
        The brutality with which Arab states pursue wars is something Israelis cannot ignore, but which you, as an American resident, can ignore and glibly opine about at your leisure.
        
        Seems like you are an American resident as well.
        
        Antinous / Moderator said rgarding “ocschwar”:
        
        You’re commenting from the US.
        
        So, here you are expressing an opinion you developed as a teenager, and you go on to call on Israel to grow up.
        
        My opinion matured from my youth, to me teen years, to my young adult years and to my adult years.
        
        10 years ago I was still grappling to defend Israel when the topic came up. And in the past 10 years I have matured to the point where I cannot sit back and ignore Israelâ€™s incredibly hypocritical and self destructive behavior.
        
        I suggest you read up on Sudan’s civil wars, Syria’s internal war in 1983, the Iran Iraq war, Yemen’s civil war, among the many other conflicts which Israel has sought to deter with the threat of nuclear escalation, before calling this “laughable.” From where you sit, you can laugh.
        
        I am well aware of other wars in Africa and wars in other states. Have you read up on the wars of any other nation on Earth? It tends to be polarized and closeted racist folks like you who tend to stir up the pot.
        
        And if you want to find the ultimate source for the strife in the Mid-East, just look towards colonialization. Dividing and conquering worked! Look at how many folks who should be cousins or brothers hate each other in Africa. Even now when most countries have economies worth nothing.
        
        Heck, I personally look at the strife in Israel stemming from the British colonial history of Palestine’s creation. It’s just that the Jewish people came in and pushed away the Brits as the target of anti-colonial indigenous people.
        
        Now please continue to launch “ad hominem” attacks upon anyone who remotely criticizes Israel. It falls right into the category of what I mentioned in my fist comment on this post: folks coming out of nowhere and bemoaning the â€œliberalâ€ media in the U.S. when someone dares say anything but “Yay!” about Israel.
      - ocschwar
        
        “Seems like you are an American resident as well.”
        
        Correct. I’m just not being defiantly glib and ignorant by virtue of living in the US.
        
        ”
        My opinion matured from my youth, to me teen years, to my young adult years and to my adult years.”
        
        And yet your comment indicates otherwise:
        
        “I am well aware of other wars in Africa and wars in other states. Have you read up on the wars of any other nation on Earth? It tends to be polarized and closeted racist folks like you who tend to stir up the pot.”
        
        Lose an argument, start calling people racist. Very mature of you. Notice, that I was commenting on how Arab STATES conduct wars, which is a simple empirical observation, and which says very little about the Arab people living in those states.
        
        ”
        Heck, I personally look at the strife in Israel stemming from the British colonial history of Palestine’s creation. It’s just that the Jewish people came in and pushed away the Brits as the target of anti-colonial indigenous people.”
        
        50% of those Jewish people came from Arab countries. So, how’s “indigenous” here? Any more ignorance you want to parade here? It’s so nice living in the States.
Antinous / Moderator

ocschwar,

Compose yourself. Unless you’re actually trying to be a provocateur. In which case, it’s going swimmingly.
- teapot
  
  I’ll just add him to my list of people to ignore when the topic of Israel comes up because they are unable to be objective about reality.
  
  teapot’s list of BB users to ignore when the topic of Israel comes up:
  Avi Solomon
  rebdav
  Thalia
  ocschwar
  
  Also I find quite hilarious all the discussion of “Arab states” in reference to an article written about Iran, a country whose populace would largely be offended being incorrectly labeled Arab.
  - Avi Solomon
    
    @teapot The only reason Iran (or Syria for that matter) hasn’t already turned Israel into a “smoldering wasteland” is because of the Israeli nukes. But a fanatical regime might be willing to sacrifice most of it’s own population in order to achieve a religious aim: the destruction of Israel. If the Iranians do get a “hot potato” nuke they will lob it asap on a first strike on Tel Aviv for fear of getting found out and attacked. I pray that it’s a dud. I have no doubt that the Jews will survive and recover from even a nuked Tel Aviv. The Ayatollahs won’t.
    
    P.S: Please be a mensch and use your real name before you put others on a list – That’s being more objective.
Jack

Lose an argument, start calling people racist. Very mature of you. Notice, that I was commenting on how Arab STATES conduct wars, which is a simple empirical observation, and which says very little about the Arab people living in those states.

I like the way you claim I am calling you a racist because I am “losing” and then you launch into a racist tirade about Arabs. I commend you on you your continual desire to make everything “empirical” or “neutral” observation. You so clearly are not it’s thrillingly hilarious to read all of this.

Look, if you are such a self-proclaimed “expert” on Mid-East politics your utter ignorance and denial of how non-Africans colonized andâ€”I feel this stronglyâ€”set the stage for the strife that exists all across Africa and the Mid-East. But I gotta say, it always feels weird for me to divide countries between Africa and the Mid-East since it seems the divisions are political at best. Much like everything in that part of the world.

Ocschwar, you remind me note-for-note of my brainwashed facistly pro-Israeli brother. On 9/11/2001 he contacted me to see if his son was okay. I did not want to talk to him, but fair enough. A massive disaster is happening; I will not be petty. Soon after we find out his son is okay, guess what happens? Suddenly he starts launching into a psychotic tirade about how if the planes had hit a U.S. aircraft carrier, the U.S. would nuke Iran. I asked “Why Iran?” trying to be as composed as possible in the face of this nonsense. His answer? “Who else would do something like this?” Brilliant! It’s not even 9:30am on a day of a terrorist attack, and I am listening to some psychotic loon in my family scream about the fact Iran should be nuked! And people wonder why I am estranged from him.

Ocschwar, I pity you and folks like you who are so paranoidly defensive about Israel you can’t even think rationally. Because even if peace were achieved in the region, someone like you would find a reason to fan the flames of hate and division even more.
ocschwar

“I like the way you claim I am calling you a racist because I am “losing” and then you launch into a racist tirade about Arabs.”

I said Arab STATES, as in those sovereign nation states not known for their close attachment to the consent and aspirations of their citizens. It is not racist to point out that the Arab states have a long established record of brutality in how they execute conventional war. It is simply a fact.

See Hama, Syria, 1983. See the use of poison gas in Iraq, 1987, and Yemen, in the 1960′s. See routine use of carpet bombing, sometimes without even access to actual bombers (i.e. Sudan’s habit of dropping bombs out of Russian transport planes.)

That is how Arab states pursue war against one another. Their willingness to do the same against Israel declined considerably after 1973. I wonder why.

You know this, now anyway. You know you were losing an argument. So you resorted to the big R. Very mature of you. I guess throwing facts into a discussion can be inflammatory, and Antinous has every reason to clamp down. But the reason it’s inflammatory is that I am daring to challenge your prejudices.
Jack

But the reason it’s inflammatory is that I am daring to challenge your prejudices.

Right now in this thread the only expressing prejudices are you: Against comfortable U.S. folks who have no “skin in the caboose” or whatever. And against Arabs. I’m not falling for this Arab STATE nonsense. You’re a racist. Simple and plain.
- ocschwar
  
  “And against Arabs. I’m not falling for this Arab STATE nonsense.”
  
  As opposed to Israelis, who according to you, are all overgrown children who should just “grow up.” But I’m the “racist” for pointing out that the decidedly non-democratic Arab states have a brutal track record in how they fight wars.
  
  Tell me, what about the millions of Iranians who risked their lives challenging their current government, in no small part because they don’t want to be dragged into more wars, should they grow up too?
  - Jack
    
    Ocschwar, the State of Israel was created in 1948. It is 2011. Just about 63 years old. An immature state at best who needs to grow up and be a part of the larger world. And in my eyes, the secret nuclear program in Israel needs to be acknowledged and dismantled. Itâ€™s the main reason Iran is doing what it is doing and the topic of this article is about the Stuxnet worm that screwed up Iranâ€™s plans. Israel has crossed over into some delusional territory in recent years and it needs to stop.
    
    And teapot said:
    
    Also I find quite hilarious all the discussion of “Arab states” in reference to an article written about Iran, a country whose populace would largely be offended being incorrectly labeled Arab.
    
    Racists not getting the facts straight? YOINKS!
    - ocschwar
      
      “Ocschwar, the State of Israel was created in 1948. It is 2011. Just about 63 years old. An immature state at best who needs to grow up and be a part of the larger world.”
      
      You live in a country that is over 200 years old, but that does not reflect in your own maturity. And given how you’re calling the Israelis overgrown children who should “grow up”, perhaps you should be less quick to call people racist.
      - Jack
        
        235 years for the U.S. – 63 years for Israel = 172 years more than Israel
        
        The U.S. also had a Civil War in which the country faced itâ€™s own issues of sentience, independence and strife and matured in the process. The nation faced humility. Israel never shows any humility towards any other nation state for any reason anytime, anywhere.
        
        The U.S. has grown and matured and admits it still has to grow and mature more. Israel has never done anything close to that.
        
        Going to eat dinner in my comfortable “glib” U.S. based dining room where my skin is invested in getting some food into my caboose.
ocschwar

Your main argument here is: “Who are you American liberals? Israel is always right! And I am the self-appointed mensa candidate who will prove this.”

Wow, there’s a straw man argument here. Not quite as bad as calling me a racist, but still pretty bad as straw man arguments go. Care to say where I said Israel is always right? And who the hell is Israel, by the way? Last I checked they have a multiparty parliamentary system with frequent changes of government. Anyone who really said “Israel is always right” would come down with whiplash.

It was the Israeli left that started the nuclear program and the right has kept it. Since both the left and the right wing in Israel keep Dimona running, perhaps there’s a reason for it?

What else did I say here? Oh, right, that Iran’s interest in picking a fight with Israel is a one sided affair. Which, while inconvenient to some commenters here, is simply the truth. Israel has no interest in Iran’s enmity. Without all that saber rattling, Iran’s nuclear program might get assistance, not hindrance from Israel. (They do have a legitimate interest in nuclear power – Iran’s oil reserves are not what they used to be.)
humanresource

The worm, like the sanctions, and the open support for the MEK terrorist forces and the Baluch separatists, can be considered as just another provocation. There is not much indication that the regime is a threat to the region, as widespread polls among the Arab publics would indicate (the pro-west dictators think otherwise, but screw them – supporting such men blindly is what radicalised the Iranians in the first place). And Iran is probably not building nuclear weapons anyway, as US the intelligence sector generally agrees:http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2009/01/12/iran

Given that the current Israeli foreign minister has threatened to destroy Egypt’s Aswan Dam – a threat which, if acted upon, would make the holocaust pale into insignificance – I think we should amend Obama’s rhetoric just slightly:
“”There is no greater threat THAN Israel â€” to the peace and stability of the region ”
Re: the Aswan Dam threat: http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&xhr=t&q=aswan+dam+avigdor+lieberman&cp=27&pf=p&sclient=psy&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=aswan+dam+avigdor+lieberman&pbx=1&fp=556f575b633c19d6
ocschwar

“Also I find quite hilarious all the discussion of “Arab states” in reference to an article written about Iran, a country whose populace would largely be offended being incorrectly labeled Arab.”

What I find hilarious is your own conflation of what’s going on now with what drove Israel to obtain nukes. I’ll spell it out for you: Israel obtained nukes to deter Nasser, the Egyptian president in the 50′s and 60′s. They were particularly motivated because it was Nasser who used poison gas in his intervention in Yemen’s civil war. Nasser, you might notice, was an Arab.

Israel’s nuclear program was weapons ready by 1977, but possibly as early as 1973. Notice I did not mention Iran. Because, Iran had no desire to fight Israel until the Islamic Revolution. Which is kind of my point. Iran’s leaders want to fight even though not one of Iran’s neighbors wants to fight Iran. Not a single, blessed one of them. Israel doesn’t want to fight Iran either. If Iran wants peace, they can get it with two phone calls. If Iran’s regime falls, I expect those phone calls will happen very quickly, because the Iranian people’s war-weariness is a major motivation for their Green Movement.

So, Iran has very little actual reason to care about Israel’s nuclear program. By the way, Iran is only 52% Persian. The remainder is made of Kurds, Arabs, Azeris, Afghans and Balochs. Among others. Iranians would be offended if called
- teapot
  
  You should’ve taken Anti’s advice, ocschwar.
  
  My comment regarding the use of the phrase “Arab states” was not directed specifically at you but you are ready to play the victim, so you assumed it was.
  
  Iran’s leaders want to fight even though not one of Iran’s neighbors wants to fight Iran. Not a single, blessed one of them. Israel doesn’t want to fight Iran either. If Iran wants peace, they can get it with two phone calls. If Iran’s regime falls, I expect those phone calls will happen very quickly, because the Iranian people’s war-weariness is a major motivation for their Green Movement.
  
  So tell me, prophet o’ wisdom, if Iran is such a war-mongering country post-revolution then I’m sure they have been in many wars since the revolution, right? Try 1… and that was primarily because Saddam was attempting to be opportunistic by attacking when things were in relative disarray. Looks like your warmongering nation (US) has a lot more unjustified wars on the scoreboard then Iran.
  
  When Iran no longer has a crackpot as their leader, don’t expect Iranians to just bend over and take your inappropriate offer: “Stop trying to get what we already have and threaten you with or we won’t stop assassinating your citizens, illegally disrupting your computer systems and threatening to bomb you”
  
  I, personally, don’t give a flying fuck. Enjoy your shit storm… I just know that from my perspective, as a disinterested party (Not American, Not Iranian, Not Israeli, Not Arab, Not Jew, Not Muslim), Israel is increasingly looking like the bully in the region. Also, I read everything… not just what supports my presently-held beliefs.
  
  Talking down to others when your viewpoint is clearly not objective just makes you look like a jerk. Go on… write more… increase the disregard we are all fostering for your input.
ocschwar

“. Israel never shows any humility towards any other nation state for any reason anytime, anywhere.”

Wow, got more racist thigns to say about Israelis? Don’t hold back now…..
- Jack
  
  Wow, got more racist thigns to say about Israelis? Don’t hold back now…..
  
  You know ocschwar if you really want to dispel all of the crazy Zionist conspiracy theories out there, this sure as hell is not the way to go about it.
ocschwar

“hwar if you really want to dispel all of the crazy Zionist conspiracy theories out there, this sure as hell is not the way to go about it.”

I am not calling you out on your racist comments to dispel Zionist conspiracy theories. I am calling you out on your racist comments because that is what they are.
- Jack
  
  Ocschwar, please go rent out David Mametâ€™s â€œHomicideâ€ and watch it a few times. One of the best films dealing with the pain, angst and logical loops American Jews often deal with when dealing with their Jewish identity, Israel and how the two are often in conflict.
- Antinous / Moderator
  
  ocschwar,
  
  Take a day off.
ocschwar

When Iran no longer has a crackpot as their leader, don’t expect Iranians to just bend over and take your inappropriate offer: “Stop trying to get what we already have and threaten you with or we won’t stop assassinating your citizens, illegally disrupting your computer systems and threatening to bomb you”

Except, nobody wants to threaten Iran. That includes Israel. Israel does, potentially, have the ability to escalate a conventional war with Iran into a nuclear one.

Except, lo, and behold, Israel has no desire for a conventional war with Iran. And if Iran doesn’t go to war with Israel, then Iran has no reason to care about Israel’s nukes.
Jack

Ocschwar, is there anything anyone can say that is critical about Israel without being ripped to shreds by folks like you who see any criticism of Israel as a personal affront.
teapot

ocschwar: the reason you are failing at getting anyone on-side is because you choose one part of a comment, discredit it with Israel-centric logic, and completely ignore all the other valid points made in the comment.

The further you’ve painted yourself into a corner, the more irrational you have to get with your own comments to fight back.

And if Iran doesn’t go to war with Israel, then Iran has no reason to care about Israel’s nukes.

Yeah, until Israel decides they have more demands. You. Just. Don’t. Get. It. Iran is going to get nukes, no matter how fancy Israel’s sabotage techniques may be. One would think a rational response on the Israeli front would be to try and calm this whole mess down before Iran actually gets said nukes.

The other point which I see as completely retarded is drawing the distinction between conventional war and nuclear war. Iran has more than enough conventional weapons than are needed to turn the entire land area of Israel into a smoldering wasteland, so to worry about them getting a nuke is silly. The only reason Iran wants nukes is because Israel has them.

Unless you have something productive or reasonable to add in your next response, consider this discussion over. May I remind you that being the last one to comment doesn’t make you right. It actually just makes you look more desperate.
social_maladroit

@Anon #21: Seeing as Israel has a history of dropping bombs on its neighbors’ nuclear facilities with the intention of ending their nuclear ambitions, yes. You can be outraged all you want.

@The Chemist #25: I’m aware that Ali Khamenei is the “Supreme Leader of Iran” and that Iran’s government is an interlaced theocracy. However, Ahmadinejad acts as Iran’s public face.
- teapot
  
  Edit: @The Chemist #25: Having now Wikipedia’d it, I’m aware that Ali Khamenei is the “Supreme Leader of Iran” and that Iran’s government is an interlaced theocracy. However, Ahmadinejad acts as Iran’s public face.
  
  Yeah… and pretty much everything you claimed about him was not accurate.