France and Germany started rapproachment in 1950. And you think Iran should keep a grudge over 1953? Your rant has the distinct stench of “let’s you and him fight” hanging over it.

You know if Israel really wants to dispel all of the crazy Zionist conspiracy theories out there, this sure as hell is not the way to go about it.

Nukes are not going away. And insanely elaborate delaying tactics like this sell the concept of disarmament short.

In the long term I simply see it as giving Iran more inspiration to commit a first strike. Especially since U.S./Islraeli involvement plays into every conspiracy theory out there.

Cold War 2.0, you’re out of beta!

If the US or Israel made Stuxnet, can’t we just call it a crime that deserves prosecution? Why try to spin it with lesser-evilism? It’s still illegal (unlike Iran’s nuclear program), provocative, and dangerous. But, yeah, better than bombing or occupation (is this our new minimum standard for high crimes?).

Too bad Manning didn’t leak this so it would negate any “positive” effect – and more importantly Julian could have been a multi-millionaire as opposed to a single digit millionaire.

You mean the nuke program that has given the Arab states a distinct incentive not to pursue all out conventional war against Israel? It’s not illegal. Israel has never signed on to any treaty forbidding it.

Nobody is saying it’s legal or illegal, but it is profoundly hypocritical and does nothing to defuse the conspiracy theories many have against Israel.

Also, you pointing out this secret nuclear program as giving Arab states “a distinct incentive” to not pursue war is a laughable canard at best. It’s like some “mall cop” who over protects himself with all kinds of gadgets and doodads and then pats himself on the back and says “You see, thanks to my hard work the food court is not a bloodbath.”

It’s 2010. I grew up in the 1970s and heard every piece of pro-Israel propaganda on Earth and believed it at the time. Then I became a teenager and the 1982 Lebanon War happened. The self-justification seemed forced and it never sat well with me. And then incident upon incident happened afterwards.

I don’t support anti-Israel groups nor do I support pro-Israel groups. I am literally baffled by Israel’s behavior and hope some sanity enters the political equation there. It’s really all power-plays, land-grabs and other nonsense at this point.

Israel is barely 50 years old. It should grow up already.

1. They loose interest in making a bomb.

or

2. Delay long enough that the relatively young population changes the culture enough that the religious conservatives loose power and influence. That way they would be much less likely

The advantage of delay is ultimately for Israel to continue to expand their territory without repercussions of Islamic states.

One can support the state of Israel and the sentience of the Jewish people and completely oppose Israel’s tactics and behavior. My opinion is not unique. Many folks in Israel right now oppose a lot of what Israel does.

@Jack: you’re awesome.

Here’s an idea: Iran could negotiate a peace treaty with Israel and a rapproachment with the USA.

@oschwar: Here’s an idea: you can go down to your local bank and transfer all the funds to me.

Your suggestion could not sound more one-sided and self-interested.

It turns out.. if you bomb and kill civilians it tends to unite folks.

With a computer virus stopping a nuclear program though.. it’s a bit more amorphous.

Actually, it’s querent who (wrongly) said the Israeli nuclear program was illegal. And it is not hypocritical either. Nor does it have any effect on conspiracy theories, which were doing just fine long before the nuclear program. The first blood libel in the Middle East was in 1840, long before Israel or Israel’s nukes.

“Also, you pointing out this secret nuclear program as giving Arab states “a distinct incentive” to not pursue war is a laughable canard at best.”

The brutality with which Arab states pursue wars is something Israelis cannot ignore, but which you, as an American resident, can ignore and glibly opine about at your leisure. I suggest you read up on Sudan’s civil wars, Syria’s internal war in 1983, the Iran Iraq war, Yemen’s civil war, among the many other conflicts which Israel has sought to deter with the threat of nuclear escalation, before calling this “laughable.” From where you sit, you can laugh.

“Then I became a teenager and the 1982 Lebanon War happened. The self-justification seemed forced and it never sat well with me.”

So, here you are expressing an opinion you developed as a teenager, and you go on to call on Israel to grow up.

To quote Spinal Tap, Iran’s goes up to 11. Islamists literally believe Israel sent sharks on to Egyptian tourist beaches. (Minus the frickin’ laser beams on their heads.) It’s not like Israel can enhance their paranoia any further.

In the mean time, internal discontent within Iran makes stalling the nuclear program with means like this a brilliant tactic. If the Islamists fall, Iran will still have a nuclear program, one that the Israelis sabotaged to prevent nuclear arms, but which is still capable of refining uranium for peaceful purposes.

Here’s an idea: Iran could negotiate a peace treaty with Israel and a rapproachment with the USA. With Obama in the White House, this is their best opportunity.

@oschwar: Here’s an idea: you can go down to your local bank and transfer all the funds to me.”

@teapot: So you think Iran standing down from a confrontation against the United States would only benefit the United States?

Delay long enough that the relatively young population changes the culture enough that the religious conservatives loose power and influence.

Unfortunately, most of our political moves end up recruiting more religious conservatives. Al-Qaida was tiny until we decided to destroy it. If we continue our campaign against the Taliban, it’ll have a seat on the UN Security Council in another decade or so.

The Iranian Hostage Crisis is not something that either side is really ready to let go of.

What do they hope to achieve? Delay operational readiness of Iranian nukes as long as possible, and hope for the next election -or revolution- to usher in a friendlier regime. At the very least they can delay a potential conflict and look for other ways out.

The Chinese also have a lot of hacking know-how, but their attentions seem focused on the US.

It’s not like Israel can enhance their paranoia any further.

And as a Jew, might I also point out Israel has it’s own issues with paranoia. I mean, did you know that the local food co-op I belong to might be the hotbed anti-Israeli sentiment since someone complained about Israeli sourced red peppers? For the record, the peppers are still for sale because they taste good.

Also, if you are Jewish and live in the U.S. you might be privy to hearing some relative (or in my case most all) bemoaning the “liberal” media in the U.S. that somehow they see as a threat to Israel’s existence? Or get some e-mail forward about how some stupid trivial web poll on CNN/BBC or something else must be swayed in Israel’s favor or else the “leftie” media in the U.S. will push through an anti-Israeli agenda.

There is a tremendous amount of paranoia on both sides.

You know what my solution is? Israel admits they have nukes and then disarm. It’s enough already.

Yeah… and pretty much everything you claimed about him was not accurate.

You don’t have any skin in the game. Bear in mind almost every Israeli has a relative that tried to gain entry to the United States at a time when it was a matter of life and death, and was not able to. Bear in mind that to Israelis, this is not idle talk at the water cooler.

Meanwhile, personally, I don’t want to see a nuclear-armed Iran, regardless.

The idea of such an effective industrial sabotage program as Stuxnet, created in order to inhibit one nation’s nuclear program, makes for fascinating reading. I hope Wikileaks’ cables eventually turn up more information about it.

The brutality with which Arab states pursue wars is something Israelis cannot ignore, but which you, as an American resident, can ignore and glibly opine about at your leisure.

Seems like you are an American resident as well.

Antinous / Moderator said rgarding “ocschwar”:

You’re commenting from the US.

So, here you are expressing an opinion you developed as a teenager, and you go on to call on Israel to grow up.

My opinion matured from my youth, to me teen years, to my young adult years and to my adult years.

10 years ago I was still grappling to defend Israel when the topic came up. And in the past 10 years I have matured to the point where I cannot sit back and ignore Israel’s incredibly hypocritical and self destructive behavior.

I suggest you read up on Sudan’s civil wars, Syria’s internal war in 1983, the Iran Iraq war, Yemen’s civil war, among the many other conflicts which Israel has sought to deter with the threat of nuclear escalation, before calling this “laughable.” From where you sit, you can laugh.

I am well aware of other wars in Africa and wars in other states. Have you read up on the wars of any other nation on Earth? It tends to be polarized and closeted racist folks like you who tend to stir up the pot.

And if you want to find the ultimate source for the strife in the Mid-East, just look towards colonialization. Dividing and conquering worked! Look at how many folks who should be cousins or brothers hate each other in Africa. Even now when most countries have economies worth nothing.

Heck, I personally look at the strife in Israel stemming from the British colonial history of Palestine’s creation. It’s just that the Jewish people came in and pushed away the Brits as the target of anti-colonial indigenous people.

Now please continue to launch “ad hominem” attacks upon anyone who remotely criticizes Israel. It falls right into the category of what I mentioned in my fist comment on this post: folks coming out of nowhere and bemoaning the “liberal” media in the U.S. when someone dares say anything but “Yay!” about Israel.

Correct. I’m just not being defiantly glib and ignorant by virtue of living in the US.

”
My opinion matured from my youth, to me teen years, to my young adult years and to my adult years.”

And yet your comment indicates otherwise:

“I am well aware of other wars in Africa and wars in other states. Have you read up on the wars of any other nation on Earth? It tends to be polarized and closeted racist folks like you who tend to stir up the pot.”

Lose an argument, start calling people racist. Very mature of you. Notice, that I was commenting on how Arab STATES conduct wars, which is a simple empirical observation, and which says very little about the Arab people living in those states.

”
Heck, I personally look at the strife in Israel stemming from the British colonial history of Palestine’s creation. It’s just that the Jewish people came in and pushed away the Brits as the target of anti-colonial indigenous people.”

50% of those Jewish people came from Arab countries. So, how’s “indigenous” here? Any more ignorance you want to parade here? It’s so nice living in the States.