2) It is the way the world works. It doesn’t make it ‘right’. It just ‘is’.

Feel free to suggest other viable alternatives.

Feel free to suggest other viable alternatives.

Don’t be evil.

1. * The U.S. is still funding Egypt
2. * Egyptians are having a successful revolt

So how is U.S. funding preventing a revolution? Not at all it seems.

It just took 30 years for Egyptians to get fed up with Mubarak’s rule and decide they could do something about it. Aided by the proliferation of new communication technology and the recent examples in Tunisia and elsewhere.

Excuse the rest of the world’s nations for not being able to conveniently pick a location with vastly weaker neighbors. We’ll keep that in mind next time we found our nations.

“Honor” in education only leads to the Ivory Tower complex, and we have enough of a problem with that already.

If I may, I suggest next time you consider some kind of video infographic with voiceovers.

During an event like this, we shouldn’t be trying to inform people about it by comparing it to pop culture. We should be trying to inform people by comparing it to their own lives. To real culture.

“Do you think we asked for this job?”

Yes you did. That was what the race for the atom bomb was all about.

“Getting all of the blame and none of the credit”

What credit would you like?
For the humanitarian work? You ever stop to wonder why the inhumane stuff like oppression, rendition, torture etc seems to obscure your good works? Seriously have a look around for figures on lives saved/bettered in say Haiti to lives lost/damaged in anyone of the countries that have had the rough side of US diplomacy, I’m not even talking Middle East or South America – check out 70’s terrorism in Europe and the right wing junta that used to run Greece.

“That’s what happens when we leave you and your self-righteous international “community” to your own devices.”

No that’s what you believe happens. The Hollywood myth whenever anything happens, that the world waits with baited breath to see what the US will do, is only that. A myth. The long and the short of it is no-one wants to be moved onto the US shitlist for it then to be subjected to “regime change”.

Yes things were bad in the past, I’ll happily trot off as many atrocities as I can think off perpetrated by my country around the world, but I’ll also condemn them and the mentality that gave rise to them.

Two wrongs just make two wrongs. The past however still doesn’t justify the US preaching Democracy but subverting democracies – overtly in the ways I already mentioned – but even more insidiously by ignoring the laws of other democracies because they don’t fit with the US world view.

“Lick it up, baby. Lick. It. Up.”

Don’t understand what this has to do with adult discourse .

(The above could probably use a kidnapping scene to get in a mention of extraordinary rendition, but the point is pretty much made.)

Having waited 5000 years (longer than even China has been around) to have a say in their own affairs, I’d say the Egyptians are realistic enough to see they have a pretty good shot now and they’re taking it (and some of the protest signs are pretty damn funny).

The US has indeed dug itself a big hole in the Middle East, but Obama, unlike Mike Huckabee, appears smart enough to know it’s time to stop digging. Oddly enough, there seems to be a quickening drumbeat elsewhere of concern trollery right now about the Muslim Brotherhood. Folks, you really want this revolution to succeed. It’s a lot more “F*ck tha’ Police” than “Allahu Akbar!”

Suppose Mubarak slams the lid. He’ll send in Mukhabarat afterward to cull anyone he thinks is a ringleader (or anyone wearing glasses). And when there’s another uprising–and one day there will be–there won’t be any moderates alive to keep it all from going up in smoke and fluttering green flags.

Mubarak is that evil high priest in “Temple of Doom” who yanks the heart out of the people. It’s shoetime!

In the end though, his regime is not democratic, and the people of Egypt want more freedom and democracy. In my opinion that trumps everything else, but it’s understandable that the US, despite their official pro-democracy stance, isn’t happy with the potential loss of an ally, and having the stability of the past decades replaced with who knows what will happen.

Still, the people of Egypt deserve to rule themselves. It’s not Egypt’s job to serve the US, it’s its job to represent its people. And the US, given its origin, should certainly be able to understand that. It’d be nice if the US cared a bit more about their ideology (which is pretty excellent) and a bit less about power politics (which sometimes seems necessary, but often turns out badly).

Would the suffering of Americans, especially the poor, be evil when gas doubles in price?

When the price of goods increase due to added cost of transportation?

The civil unrest and violence caused by gas rationing and long lines?

The jobs lost as the economy goes to shit?

The electricity rationing for oil fueled power plants?

The people freezing to death in the East where fuel oil is commonly used to heat homes?

I am sure one can think of a lot of other repercussions.

Also, on the flip side, what right do we have to say who does or doesn’t run another countries gov.? We get criticized for the failed gov. we set up in Vietnam, as well as removing Saddam from power. Karzi in Afghanistan is criticized as well. Yet if we leave a gov. that we deal with alone, we are the bad guy for dealing with an oppressor.

Remember too Iraq, Iran, Cuba – many others have their current gov. after a ‘revolution’ over a gov. which was deemed even worse at the time. Saudi Arabia and others are Monarchies, including the relatively progressive Qatar and Kuwait. Some have Sharia law or a form of it in place. China is just now creeping out from under the boot of Totalitarianism.

Do we cut off all ties from people with out a western styled form of government? One of the reasons we have problems with the Middle East is we assume everyone thinks like we do and don’t take into account the cultural differences.

So yeah. The world is a complicated place. America is probably more considerate of other nations than it has been during any other time in history. “Evil” is a relative term, and often times one must go with the ‘lesser of two evils’.

I’m all for democracty and self-determination, and more power to them if they can get it.

I’d just like to be really, really sure that we won’t be gaining another Islamic theocracy instead.

Which is, come to think of it, probably an accurate explanation of the way Obama and Biden are currently seeing it.

If that makes the US evil, well, see you in hell.

Slavery wasn’t as broad reaching as oil. Slavery was mostly for agriculture and were owned by the rich. There were plenty of industries not effected at all by it. Indeed ending it fueled the growth of mechanical harvesting, as well as providing an influx of workers in the North. The damage from the war was more detrimental than the lost of slaves.

Oil, on the other hand, is involved in just about every industry in one way or another. I don’t think one can compare dealing with the middle east with slavery.

Furthermore *WE* got rid of slavery – and it was not because Britain or France made us or refused to do business with us. We got rid of them because of succession, the war, and Lincoln. (Who would have kept slavery if it would keep the Union together, it may well have been 50 years more before it was abolished. Or not http://www.csathemovie.com/)

This justification doesn’t seem all too sound to me. Surely this is the same as arguing that without various nations’ support in various conflicts (going with the theme of skirting Godwin’s Law) I would not be alive and therefore have no right to be ungrateful towards any nation that was previously involved, regardless of what the current government is doing.

Bottom line: I agree with those who are irritated at the childish good vs. evil action movie infographic. While there are many adults who want to believe the world is black and white, it’s spectacularly unhelpful. People need to recognize all the shades of gray.

Remind me again how that’s working out for us? With how many American dead in Iraq and Afghanistan, the loss of our freedoms, and an economy in the shitter, and constant uncertainty about interests abroad that other countries don’t encounter to anywhere near the same degree.

Yeah. Let’s be realistic.

For the most part I agree: downtrodden citizens=good. corrupt leaders=bad.

And I pray for a swift and bloodless (well, anymorebloodless) end to the troubles over there; but my feeling is the best outcome would be for the military to step in, oust the obvious villians, restore order and (hopefully) lead to some power-sharing/voting rights for all.

And if Egypt tires of Americas’ patronage: so be it. But I hope they don’t. NOT because I love my nations’ Empire so much, but because of History. History my friends: forget, repeat.

#3 has a point. Israel is the rabid wolf in the corner: Please Don’t Touch! Arguments about right vs. wrong, hegemony and history and hatreds aside; if Israel feels REALLY threatened: Game over man.

Salaam and Shalom and Peace be upon thee: the other choice will cure nothing except overpopulation.

Then again: you wanna omelette? Gotta break eggs.

Power to the People and the Devil take the Hindmost!!!

PS: May I suggest that the USA not admit Mr. Mubarek to its territory, if and when he hits the road?

The USA did the honourable thing by the Shah by letting him come to NYC for treatment; but IIRC, letting the Shah into the USA was in fact the trigger for the Iranians student radicals seizing the US Embassy.

Indonesia managed it, pretty much, and they’re the biggest Muslim nation on the planet.

Do you propose sending US troops to support Mr Mubarek in his quest for “stability”? I doubt that.

Does the US purport to have a veto over the forms which Governments may take in the Middle East? Of course not!

The Egyptians themselves apparently don’t feel the Brotherhood are a great threat: certainly not enough to justify keeping Mubarek et al in power.

But you seem to know Egypt better than they do.