Comments on: 3D print-shop receives an order for an ATM skimmer http://boingboing.net/2011/02/04/3d-print-shop-receiv.html Brain candy for Happy Mutants Sat, 25 May 2013 22:03:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: bcsizemo http://boingboing.net/2011/02/04/3d-print-shop-receiv.html#comment-1017092 bcsizemo Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1017092 Yes, but to play another devils advocate...there would be a paper trail from any large institution like a bank or university. ie: things with letter head of the company/university, contracts with other companies, or at least email communications (with potential contact information if required). Obviously bad things have to exist so we can learn how to work to make things better (or least stop them), but if you are the sell and get a bad vibe from the buyer I'm all for stepping back and doing business else where. Commonsense, sometimes it's not so common. Yes, but to play another devils advocate…there would be a paper trail from any large institution like a bank or university.

ie: things with letter head of the company/university, contracts with other companies, or at least email communications (with potential contact information if required).

Obviously bad things have to exist so we can learn how to work to make things better (or least stop them), but if you are the sell and get a bad vibe from the buyer I’m all for stepping back and doing business else where.

Commonsense, sometimes it’s not so common.

]]> By: Squid Tamer http://boingboing.net/2011/02/04/3d-print-shop-receiv.html#comment-1017863 Squid Tamer Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1017863 Imagine if they embedded the skimmer inside another model (such as a big elephant figurine), with the skimmer just held in place by some spokes. It'd be much more difficult to detect, and you could just cut away the outside model to get the skimmer out. Imagine if they embedded the skimmer inside another model (such as a big elephant figurine), with the skimmer just held in place by some spokes. It’d be much more difficult to detect, and you could just cut away the outside model to get the skimmer out.

]]> By: Adam H http://boingboing.net/2011/02/04/3d-print-shop-receiv.html#comment-1017099 Adam H Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1017099 It seems that an upcoming legitimate concern with these printers might be using them to build untraceable guns. Before you get too skeptical, imagine building a revolver or shotgun, not an automatic, out of high-impact resins. Pretty simple. (remember "In the Line of Fire") You're almost intending it to be disposable, so there's no worries about longevity. Now, this might be one of those situations where it's already really easy to get untraceable regular guns, so no one will bother, but I can't help but imagine a printer in a basement somewhere, churning out gun parts, or even farming the job out to a few different companies, none of whom would recognize the disassembled pieces as noteworthy. It seems that an upcoming legitimate concern with these printers might be using them to build untraceable guns.
Before you get too skeptical, imagine building a revolver or shotgun, not an automatic, out of high-impact resins. Pretty simple. (remember “In the Line of Fire”) You’re almost intending it to be disposable, so there’s no worries about longevity.

Now, this might be one of those situations where it’s already really easy to get untraceable regular guns, so no one will bother, but I can’t help but imagine a printer in a basement somewhere, churning out gun parts, or even farming the job out to a few different companies, none of whom would recognize the disassembled pieces as noteworthy.

]]> By: Sork http://boingboing.net/2011/02/04/3d-print-shop-receiv.html#comment-1017126 Sork Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1017126 What you want is an <a href="http://www.contraptor.org/mini-cnc">open source hardware CNC machine</a>. IMHO 3D printing makes fragile prototypes. What you want is an open source hardware CNC machine.
IMHO 3D printing makes fragile prototypes.

]]> By: PaulR http://boingboing.net/2011/02/04/3d-print-shop-receiv.html#comment-1017130 PaulR Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1017130 Don't be so sure the gun wouldn't explode when firing the first bullte: "practical toughness of high gloss ABS" http://www.matweb.com/search/datasheettext.aspx?matguid=d647848b16104eb0978e26437c1e9100 ABS. Amyl Butyl Sterate (typing from memory) is the stuff that the last laptop you owned which fell apart on you, is made out of. /maybe for guns you give to you enemies... Don’t be so sure the gun wouldn’t explode when firing the first bullte:
“practical toughness of high gloss ABS”
http://www.matweb.com/search/datasheettext.aspx?matguid=d647848b16104eb0978e26437c1e9100

ABS. Amyl Butyl Sterate (typing from memory) is the stuff that the last laptop you owned which fell apart on you, is made out of.

/maybe for guns you give to you enemies…

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2011/02/04/3d-print-shop-receiv.html#comment-1017134 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1017134 So, will 3d printers and CNC machines now come from the factory equipped with software to prevent the making of skimmers in the way that color printers are equippped to prevent them from being used for counterfeiting? So, will 3d printers and CNC machines now come from the factory equipped with software to prevent the making of skimmers in the way that color printers are equippped to prevent them from being used for counterfeiting?

]]> By: jungletek http://boingboing.net/2011/02/04/3d-print-shop-receiv.html#comment-1018160 jungletek Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1018160 You can already build untraceable, and more importantly fully legal, guns. They just have to be for your own use, AFAIU... you can't give, sell or otherwise transfer them to someone else. The regulations are actually quite a fascinating and enlightening read. They're actually less restricted than I imagined they would be, and I'm a huge cynic. You can already build untraceable, and more importantly fully legal, guns. They just have to be for your own use, AFAIU… you can’t give, sell or otherwise transfer them to someone else.
The regulations are actually quite a fascinating and enlightening read.
They’re actually less restricted than I imagined they would be, and I’m a huge cynic.

]]> By: Ugly Canuck http://boingboing.net/2011/02/04/3d-print-shop-receiv.html#comment-1018175 Ugly Canuck Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1018175 And those regulations are specific to the place: http://www2.canada.com/nanaimodailynews/news/story.html?id=56aefde4-131f-45cd-95c4-42c2bb4016d6 Not all home made guns are legal everywhere. And those regulations are specific to the place:

http://www2.canada.com/nanaimodailynews/news/story.html?id=56aefde4-131f-45cd-95c4-42c2bb4016d6

Not all home made guns are legal everywhere.

]]> By: knoxblox http://boingboing.net/2011/02/04/3d-print-shop-receiv.html#comment-1017159 knoxblox Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1017159 As evidenced by the stock photo in the original article, I'm glad that despite some criminals' cleverness, their workmanship skills still suck somewhat. Got enough silicone on there, buddy? As evidenced by the stock photo in the original article, I’m glad that despite some criminals’ cleverness, their workmanship skills still suck somewhat. Got enough silicone on there, buddy?

]]> By: Stooge http://boingboing.net/2011/02/04/3d-print-shop-receiv.html#comment-1017162 Stooge Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1017162 <blockquote>I would like to think that my ATM card is immune to this sort of thing because all the banks around here switched to smart cards a couple of years ago.</blockquote> How secure your smart card is may depend on where 'here' is. In many countries smart cards using SDA (static data authentication) are still being used, rather than the more secure DDA or CDA. SDA has a couple of giant security holes, but from the point of view of a skimmer the one that counts is that the data transferred between terminal and card are unencrypted. As a result, the skimmer only has to acquire the account number being sent by the card to the terminal, and the entered PIN sent by the terminal to the card. Assuming the PIN is valid, that's all the data that's required to create a pseudo-clone of the card in magnetic strip form for immediate use in a country that doesn't yet use Chip & PIN.

I would like to think that my ATM card is immune to this sort of thing because all the banks around here switched to smart cards a couple of years ago.

How secure your smart card is may depend on where ‘here’ is. In many countries smart cards using SDA (static data authentication) are still being used, rather than the more secure DDA or CDA. SDA has a couple of giant security holes, but from the point of view of a skimmer the one that counts is that the data transferred between terminal and card are unencrypted. As a result, the skimmer only has to acquire the account number being sent by the card to the terminal, and the entered PIN sent by the terminal to the card. Assuming the PIN is valid, that’s all the data that’s required to create a pseudo-clone of the card in magnetic strip form for immediate use in a country that doesn’t yet use Chip & PIN.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2011/02/04/3d-print-shop-receiv.html#comment-1017181 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1017181 I'm studying to be a machinist, and all I have to say is that if someone makes a plastic gun, and then attempts to fire it, their new nickname is likely to be "Lefty." Or maybe "One-Eye." The "plastic" guns out there have sizable amounts of metal in them, especially around little things like barrel and breech - you're looking at 20,000 psi pressures (and more...), and when you consider that the plastic pipe you buy at the hardware store is good for about 200 psi, things start to come into alignment. I’m studying to be a machinist, and all I have to say is that if someone makes a plastic gun, and then attempts to fire it, their new nickname is likely to be “Lefty.” Or maybe “One-Eye.” The “plastic” guns out there have sizable amounts of metal in them, especially around little things like barrel and breech – you’re looking at 20,000 psi pressures (and more…), and when you consider that the plastic pipe you buy at the hardware store is good for about 200 psi, things start to come into alignment.

]]> By: tylerkaraszewski http://boingboing.net/2011/02/04/3d-print-shop-receiv.html#comment-1017202 tylerkaraszewski Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1017202 But there are lots of non-infringing uses for that! I only use mine for downloading Linux distributions. It's totally unfair that they'd try and keep me from having one. But there are lots of non-infringing uses for that! I only use mine for downloading Linux distributions. It’s totally unfair that they’d try and keep me from having one.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2011/02/04/3d-print-shop-receiv.html#comment-1018753 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1018753 It makes me wonder if future 3D printers will have something akin to the tracking dot pattern of laser printers. Like a series of small bubbles in the item that can be revealed by taking a cross section. http://w2.eff.org/privacy/printers/docucolor/ It makes me wonder if future 3D printers will have something akin to the tracking dot pattern of laser printers. Like a series of small bubbles in the item that can be revealed by taking a cross section.

http://w2.eff.org/privacy/printers/docucolor/

]]> By: dainel http://boingboing.net/2011/02/04/3d-print-shop-receiv.html#comment-1018253 dainel Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1018253 Another option would have been to contact the police, and ask them if they should fulfill the order anyway. They could then track down the person who ordered it and then get the whole gang. Another option would have been to contact the police, and ask them if they should fulfill the order anyway. They could then track down the person who ordered it and then get the whole gang.

]]> By: Glenn Fleishman http://boingboing.net/2011/02/04/3d-print-shop-receiv.html#comment-1017249 Glenn Fleishman Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1017249 I know tylerk is kidding, but I agree. Why should a 3D printing shop be the arbiter for what's legal? This seems to be counter-Cory. I know tylerk is kidding, but I agree. Why should a 3D printing shop be the arbiter for what’s legal? This seems to be counter-Cory.

]]> By: jungletek http://boingboing.net/2011/02/04/3d-print-shop-receiv.html#comment-1018275 jungletek Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1018275 Yeah, sorry. Forgot I was talking about Canuckistan :D I like you guys. But you're right, I was referring to U.S. regs. Yeah, sorry. Forgot I was talking about Canuckistan :D

I like you guys. But you’re right, I was referring to U.S. regs.

]]> By: dainel http://boingboing.net/2011/02/04/3d-print-shop-receiv.html#comment-1017021 dainel Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1017021 I would like to think that my ATM card is immune to this sort of thing because all the banks around here switched to smart cards a couple of years ago. I would like to think that my ATM card is immune to this sort of thing because all the banks around here switched to smart cards a couple of years ago.

]]> By: mlp http://boingboing.net/2011/02/04/3d-print-shop-receiv.html#comment-1017022 mlp Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1017022 Holy smokes. Materialise's offices are in the town I live in, and their lobby has a fantastic gallery of 3D models they've printed. They do really good work -- if this had gotten through, I'm convinced it would have been undetectable. Good on them for catching it. Holy smokes. Materialise’s offices are in the town I live in, and their lobby has a fantastic gallery of 3D models they’ve printed. They do really good work — if this had gotten through, I’m convinced it would have been undetectable. Good on them for catching it.

]]> By: joris http://boingboing.net/2011/02/04/3d-print-shop-receiv.html#comment-1017034 joris Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1017034 @mlp, Thank you for your kind words. If you ever want a tour of 3D printing facility in Leuven you can email joris (@) i.materialise.com and I'll take you round. Joris @mlp,

Thank you for your kind words. If you ever want a tour of 3D printing facility in Leuven you can email joris (@) i.materialise.com and I’ll take you round.

Joris

]]> By: Marktech http://boingboing.net/2011/02/04/3d-print-shop-receiv.html#comment-1017037 Marktech Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1017037 From the OA: <blockquote> after communication with the customer, the decision was made to decline the order. We do not support criminal activity and will do everything in our power to prevent possible crimes. </blockquote> Nice to know that they turned the work down after talking with the customer. But where's the bit where they told the police? From the OA:

after communication with the customer, the decision was made to decline the order. We do not support criminal activity and will do everything in our power to prevent possible crimes.

Nice to know that they turned the work down after talking with the customer. But where’s the bit where they told the police?

]]> By: joris http://boingboing.net/2011/02/04/3d-print-shop-receiv.html#comment-1017054 joris Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1017054 @Marktech From what I understand, while ATM skimming is illegal it is, depending on your jurisdiction, not illegal to make parts for an ATM skimmer. Once you do use it to scam someone, then fraud kicks in for the act of intending to steal money from someone using subterfuge. Much in the same way as it might be legal for you to own and make a knife but you would get into trouble for taking that knife into a bank and waving it around threateningly at people. P.S., I tried to check online to find out more and managed to Google one of the funniest comments ever on a forum. "anyone know of any reputable atm skimmer sellers?" http://www.zoklet.net/bbs/showthread.php?t=112926 (I'm not entirely sure if this is a safe link to go to) @Marktech

From what I understand, while ATM skimming is illegal it is, depending on your jurisdiction, not illegal to make parts for an ATM skimmer. Once you do use it to scam someone, then fraud kicks in for the act of intending to steal money from someone using subterfuge. Much in the same way as it might be legal for you to own and make a knife but you would get into trouble for taking that knife into a bank and waving it around threateningly at people.

P.S., I tried to check online to find out more and managed to Google one of the funniest comments ever on a forum. “anyone know of any reputable atm skimmer sellers?” http://www.zoklet.net/bbs/showthread.php?t=112926
(I’m not entirely sure if this is a safe link to go to)

]]> By: ablebody http://boingboing.net/2011/02/04/3d-print-shop-receiv.html#comment-1017569 ablebody Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1017569 Give the swipe mechanism a hearty yank each and every time you're about to use your card. Vigorous exercise, even at a minimum, often foils the lazy thief. Give the swipe mechanism a hearty yank each and every time you’re about to use your card. Vigorous exercise, even at a minimum, often foils the lazy thief.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2011/02/04/3d-print-shop-receiv.html#comment-1017061 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1017061 Sure, Making or owning a skimmer may well be legal. But owning or ordering one would, I think constitute probable cause for a search warrant. Sure, Making or owning a skimmer may well be legal. But owning or ordering one would, I think constitute probable cause for a search warrant.

]]> By: andygates http://boingboing.net/2011/02/04/3d-print-shop-receiv.html#comment-1017073 andygates Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1017073 Clearly this shows a market for uncensored 3D printing services. Cue the Pirate Printer! (I can't tell if I'm joking or not.) Clearly this shows a market for uncensored 3D printing services. Cue the Pirate Printer!

(I can’t tell if I’m joking or not.)

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2011/02/04/3d-print-shop-receiv.html#comment-1017075 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1017075 And cue the countdown until the design is resubmitted with appropriate spurs and other decorations to hide its true purpose from the 3d police. Wonder if there will be 3d captchas where you have to look at a VRML model and decide if it could be a skimmer or not... :) -jeff And cue the countdown until the design is resubmitted with appropriate spurs and other decorations to hide its true purpose from the 3d police.

Wonder if there will be 3d captchas where you have to look at a VRML model and decide if it could be a skimmer or not… :)

-jeff

]]> By: jmnugent http://boingboing.net/2011/02/04/3d-print-shop-receiv.html#comment-1017086 jmnugent Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1017086 Of course, i.materialise has the option to reject any order they don't feel comfortable with, but to play Devils Advocate, there are legit reasons to have a skimmer faceplate. Could be an anti-fraud researcher, could be a college thesis that requires examples,etc. Like many other things in life, we should be focusing on the use/action and not the object. (IE: I could have a whole warehouse of skimmer faceplates and not be harming anyone. It's the ACTION of using one to defraud a victim that's the problem) Of course, i.materialise has the option to reject any order they don’t feel comfortable with, but to play Devils Advocate, there are legit reasons to have a skimmer faceplate. Could be an anti-fraud researcher, could be a college thesis that requires examples,etc. Like many other things in life, we should be focusing on the use/action and not the object. (IE: I could have a whole warehouse of skimmer faceplates and not be harming anyone. It’s the ACTION of using one to defraud a victim that’s the problem)

]]> By: kmoser http://boingboing.net/2011/02/04/3d-print-shop-receiv.html#comment-1017087 kmoser Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1017087 Yeah, the order might have been placed by a bank, or somebody doing legitimate research into ATM skimmers. By failing to produce it for them, they may have inadvertently contributed to weaker security and thus <i>more</i> people being scammed. Yeah, the order might have been placed by a bank, or somebody doing legitimate research into ATM skimmers. By failing to produce it for them, they may have inadvertently contributed to weaker security and thus more people being scammed.

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