Comments on: Indigenous Brazilians fight Amazon dam project (big photo gallery) http://boingboing.net/2011/02/09/indigenous-brazilian.html Brain candy for Happy Mutants Sun, 26 May 2013 06:15:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: Rtarara http://boingboing.net/2011/02/09/indigenous-brazilian.html#comment-1023509 Rtarara Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1023509 Dams are terrible and those people have a right to that land. Dams only have a 50-100 year lifespan (per my geology prof). It won't last that long and the damage lasts for a very long time. Perhaps even permanently if a threatened species is driven extinct. It's a bad plan. Put up some wind turbines or even make a nuke plant. I'd consider them greener all things considered. Dams are terrible and those people have a right to that land. Dams only have a 50-100 year lifespan (per my geology prof). It won’t last that long and the damage lasts for a very long time. Perhaps even permanently if a threatened species is driven extinct. It’s a bad plan. Put up some wind turbines or even make a nuke plant. I’d consider them greener all things considered.

]]> By: zyodei http://boingboing.net/2011/02/09/indigenous-brazilian.html#comment-1023256 zyodei Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1023256 Even if a people does not recognize a formal system of property rights, they still HAVE property rights. If any system of "law" is to rise above mere banditry, it must respect them. If their land will be flooded or otherwise destroyed, that is simply criminal. The end. Even if a people does not recognize a formal system of property rights, they still HAVE property rights.

If any system of “law” is to rise above mere banditry, it must respect them.

If their land will be flooded or otherwise destroyed, that is simply criminal. The end.

]]> By: jave http://boingboing.net/2011/02/09/indigenous-brazilian.html#comment-1023266 jave Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1023266 This isn't a matter of simple land rights. The riverwater and types fish people live off of change and may be eradicated altogether. The reservoirs also create submerged areas where mercury in the soil, from years of cheap gold mining deposition, leaches out and is eventually able to be metabolized into the food chain, poisoning the people that have relied on these rivers. They are losing their homes, traditional foodsources, and health with one fell swoop. This isn’t a matter of simple land rights. The riverwater and types fish people live off of change and may be eradicated altogether. The reservoirs also create submerged areas where mercury in the soil, from years of cheap gold mining deposition, leaches out and is eventually able to be metabolized into the food chain, poisoning the people that have relied on these rivers.

They are losing their homes, traditional foodsources, and health with one fell swoop.

]]> By: TEKNA2007 http://boingboing.net/2011/02/09/indigenous-brazilian.html#comment-1023273 TEKNA2007 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1023273 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerald_Forest http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerald_Forest

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2011/02/09/indigenous-brazilian.html#comment-1023275 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1023275 Just to play devils advocate - its very easy for us to sit back in our electrically heated (or cooled), electrically lit homes, at our computers (or other electrical gadget with online access) and say "Well, clearly this is wrong." But do not the people of Brazil have a right to the same access to electrical power as we do? Whatever choice they make with regards to providing power to their developing population, somebody will be against it. If we accept that the entire world has the same rights to luxuriate in electrically driven consumer products, we have to accept that some form of power generating system will be built or else be tremendous hypocrites. Most of us do not live in countries where the electrical generation is mostly clean but that does not stop us from using electricity to power luxuries rather than necessities. So... accepting that they have the right to some sort of powergeneration, and that no power generation system is going to be 100% environmentally friendly (and I include the local human population as part of the environment), the real question is what is the best trade off for high generation, low impact and affordable cost that they can build? Would we prefer nuclear plants? Vast solar arrays (requiring vast jungle clearance, perhaps)? Massive wind farms? Fossil fuel burning stations as used in the USA and UK? Just to play devils advocate – its very easy for us to sit back in our electrically heated (or cooled), electrically lit homes, at our computers (or other electrical gadget with online access) and say “Well, clearly this is wrong.”

But do not the people of Brazil have a right to the same access to electrical power as we do? Whatever choice they make with regards to providing power to their developing population, somebody will be against it. If we accept that the entire world has the same rights to luxuriate in electrically driven consumer products, we have to accept that some form of power generating system will be built or else be tremendous hypocrites.

Most of us do not live in countries where the electrical generation is mostly clean but that does not stop us from using electricity to power luxuries rather than necessities.

So… accepting that they have the right to some sort of powergeneration, and that no power generation system is going to be 100% environmentally friendly (and I include the local human population as part of the environment), the real question is what is the best trade off for high generation, low impact and affordable cost that they can build? Would we prefer nuclear plants? Vast solar arrays (requiring vast jungle clearance, perhaps)? Massive wind farms? Fossil fuel burning stations as used in the USA and UK?

]]> By: Ant http://boingboing.net/2011/02/09/indigenous-brazilian.html#comment-1023532 Ant Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1023532 I was thinking the same! :D I was thinking the same! :D

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2011/02/09/indigenous-brazilian.html#comment-1023548 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1023548 Girl with the lip-disk? The man with the lip disk (bogodó) is the supreme chief of the Kayapó, called Raoni. He has been fighting the Belo Monte dam ever since the eighties. Then in company of pop singer Sting; It stopped the government for a while, but now the Belo Monster is out of the box again. Girl with the lip-disk? The man with the lip disk (bogodó) is the supreme chief of the Kayapó, called Raoni. He has been fighting the Belo Monte dam ever since the eighties. Then in company of pop singer Sting; It stopped the government for a while, but now the Belo Monster is out of the box again.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2011/02/09/indigenous-brazilian.html#comment-1023566 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1023566 it is a myth that hydropower is "clean". In fact, there is a lot of confusion between the concept of clean, renewable and sustainable energy. Whereas hydropower might be clean in the sense that it does not emit toxins (like oil and coal plants may), it is not "clean" in the sense of diminishing the green house effect. Because hydroelectrics emit large quantities of CO2 and methane (google Fearnside, among others). The same way, one may argue that hydropower is renewable, as the river will always keep flowing as part of the water cycle (as long as the rains continues falling in that region, which, by the way, is questioned for the Amazon - see latest issue of Science). However, renewable does not necessarily mean sustainable. Sustainability involves a whole set of criteria, among them renewability, lasting impact on the environment, green house gas emissions, impacts on the social environment, distribution of possible profits (in the broad sense of the world), etcetera. It is in that sense that hydropower is not a sustainable energy source. At least not in most places, and definitely not in tropical, biodiversity hotspots like the Amazon region, inhabited by indigenous, riverine and other traditional communities. Belo Monte will flood big areas, ranches, will force tens of thousands of people from their homes, etc. Meanwhile Brazil does have plenty of really clean alternatives, as pointed out by the civil society: Brazil has plenty of sun and wind, there is a world to gain in energy efficiency, repowering existing hydroelectrics, dimishing energy transportation losses (15% in Brazil, compare to 5% in the States and Europe, 1% in Japan). So it is not a question of "We don´t want Brasil to have progress". The debate is about what kind of progress Brazil should strive for, what kind of energy model. I personally don´t think that should include the destruction of the Amazon forest. We are smarter than that nowadays, aren´t we? it is a myth that hydropower is “clean”. In fact, there is a lot of confusion between the concept of clean, renewable and sustainable energy. Whereas hydropower might be clean in the sense that it does not emit toxins (like oil and coal plants may), it is not “clean” in the sense of diminishing the green house effect. Because hydroelectrics emit large quantities of CO2 and methane (google Fearnside, among others).
The same way, one may argue that hydropower is renewable, as the river will always keep flowing as part of the water cycle (as long as the rains continues falling in that region, which, by the way, is questioned for the Amazon – see latest issue of Science). However, renewable does not necessarily mean sustainable. Sustainability involves a whole set of criteria, among them renewability, lasting impact on the environment, green house gas emissions, impacts on the social environment, distribution of possible profits (in the broad sense of the world), etcetera.
It is in that sense that hydropower is not a sustainable energy source. At least not in most places, and definitely not in tropical, biodiversity hotspots like the Amazon region, inhabited by indigenous, riverine and other traditional communities. Belo Monte will flood big areas, ranches, will force tens of thousands of people from their homes, etc.

Meanwhile Brazil does have plenty of really clean alternatives, as pointed out by the civil society: Brazil has plenty of sun and wind, there is a world to gain in energy efficiency, repowering existing hydroelectrics, dimishing energy transportation losses (15% in Brazil, compare to 5% in the States and Europe, 1% in Japan).

So it is not a question of “We don´t want Brasil to have progress”. The debate is about what kind of progress Brazil should strive for, what kind of energy model.

I personally don´t think that should include the destruction of the Amazon forest. We are smarter than that nowadays, aren´t we?

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2011/02/09/indigenous-brazilian.html#comment-1026382 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1026382 The two towers are the Brazilian Congress, not the World Trade Center. The two towers are the Brazilian Congress, not the World Trade Center.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2011/02/09/indigenous-brazilian.html#comment-1023319 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1023319 @ Anon, why do you believe we have a right to power generation? We are used to it, and take it for granted, but have never thought about these things on a global scale, or anything like it. We don't have a right, we simply take and exploit others to ensure that we cqan continue taking, without respect for their rights. We have set a pattern which others may struggle to copy but the land and its people should be consulted before we claim to have rights over them. @ Anon, why do you believe we have a right to power generation? We are used to it, and take it for granted, but have never thought about these things on a global scale, or anything like it. We don’t have a right, we simply take and exploit others to ensure that we cqan continue taking, without respect for their rights. We have set a pattern which others may struggle to copy but the land and its people should be consulted before we claim to have rights over them.

]]> By: jave http://boingboing.net/2011/02/09/indigenous-brazilian.html#comment-1023335 jave Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1023335 The reason we judge from afar is out of experience and the knowledge gained from it. We have been down this path and hopefully have learned something from our mistakes. Secondly, while some of the power goes towards growing cities, the majority of these power projects are to lower costs of energy-intensive industries, primarily aluminum smelting. This is a government directive to support a well organized and funded politically backed industry (mining and metal production) at the expense of the least organized and politically-able groups. Every decision has trade-offs, but this isn't the admirable 3rd world "tough-choices and bootstraps" modernization mirage we like to imagine reflected in China. It is an injustice that their lives and heritage have been valued by an outside party, put in place to protect the people, less than the cost of aluminum. The reason we judge from afar is out of experience and the knowledge gained from it. We have been down this path and hopefully have learned something from our mistakes.

Secondly, while some of the power goes towards growing cities, the majority of these power projects are to lower costs of energy-intensive industries, primarily aluminum smelting.

This is a government directive to support a well organized and funded politically backed industry (mining and metal production) at the expense of the least organized and politically-able groups.

Every decision has trade-offs, but this isn’t the admirable 3rd world “tough-choices and bootstraps” modernization mirage we like to imagine reflected in China. It is an injustice that their lives and heritage have been valued by an outside party, put in place to protect the people, less than the cost of aluminum.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2011/02/09/indigenous-brazilian.html#comment-1023854 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1023854 Don't these indigenous know that hydroelectric power can be used to make eyeglasses and ice cream? (pic 3). Jenkins atuto Don’t these indigenous know that hydroelectric power can be used to make eyeglasses and ice cream? (pic 3).

Jenkins atuto

]]> By: classic01 http://boingboing.net/2011/02/09/indigenous-brazilian.html#comment-1023358 classic01 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1023358 Give 300 years there will be no more indigenous people left on earth. We'll be a technological society. It is a natural progression of our human development. There is no turning back. Give 300 years there will be no more indigenous people left on earth. We’ll be a technological society. It is a natural progression of our human development. There is no turning back.

]]> By: Lester http://boingboing.net/2011/02/09/indigenous-brazilian.html#comment-1023377 Lester Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1023377 <blockquote>healthy set of moobs on these guys in pic 4 </blockquote> I think they thought the vertical stripes would be slimming.

healthy set of moobs on these guys in pic 4

I think they thought the vertical stripes would be slimming.

]]> By: magicbean http://boingboing.net/2011/02/09/indigenous-brazilian.html#comment-1023387 magicbean Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1023387 <blockquote>But do not the people of Brazil have a right to the same access to electrical power as we do? </blockquote> I guess you don't count the indigenous groups as any of "the people of Brazil", then. People who don't seem to want electricity at the expense of their culture and lives.

But do not the people of Brazil have a right to the same access to electrical power as we do?

I guess you don’t count the indigenous groups as any of “the people of Brazil”, then. People who don’t seem to want electricity at the expense of their culture and lives.

]]> By: ashabot http://boingboing.net/2011/02/09/indigenous-brazilian.html#comment-1023644 ashabot Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1023644 "Raised concerns"!?!?! A dam would effing DESTROY the region. “Raised concerns”!?!?! A dam would effing DESTROY the region.

]]> By: DrPretto http://boingboing.net/2011/02/09/indigenous-brazilian.html#comment-1023400 DrPretto Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1023400 In Panamá my country, indigenous groups are also fighting against mining projects. Panamanian Gov, is trying to approve controversial laws without consulting the opinion of the rest of the country: Controversial mining law green-lighted http://www.lapress.org/articles.asp?art=6299 It's obvious that members of the Gov. will receive any amount of money if these projects are approved. Corruption. In Panamá my country, indigenous groups are also fighting against mining projects. Panamanian Gov, is trying to approve controversial laws without consulting the opinion of the rest of the country:
Controversial mining law green-lighted
http://www.lapress.org/articles.asp?art=6299

It’s obvious that members of the Gov. will receive any amount of money if these projects are approved. Corruption.

]]> By: Daemon http://boingboing.net/2011/02/09/indigenous-brazilian.html#comment-1023149 Daemon Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1023149 It "might" displace people and damage the environment? Is there actually any doubt? You're making a giant lake, of course anyone who lives in the area will have to move and a huge swath of the area will effectively vanish. It “might” displace people and damage the environment?
Is there actually any doubt? You’re making a giant lake, of course anyone who lives in the area will have to move and a huge swath of the area will effectively vanish.

]]> By: yearofplentycard http://boingboing.net/2011/02/09/indigenous-brazilian.html#comment-1023174 yearofplentycard Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1023174 Why are those guys in the 2nd picture standing in front of the World Trade Center? Why are those guys in the 2nd picture standing in front of the World Trade Center?

]]> By: Moriarty http://boingboing.net/2011/02/09/indigenous-brazilian.html#comment-1023433 Moriarty Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1023433 There is a demand for electricity. It will be be met, one way or another. Hence, looking at the impact of hydropower in a vacuum is fallacious, because you're only looking at half the picture. What we should be doing is comparing the impact of hydropower with the alternative it would be replacing, namely fossil fuels. So in addition to completely changing the <i>local</i> ecosystem, it would also eliminate a great deal of burning natural gas, oil, and coal per year, indefinitely (hydropower being a renewable resource). I'm not saying I support it, just that a more honest analysis is called for, as we sit here using most likely coal-powered computers to criticize Brazil, which gets 80% of its electricity from renewable sources. There is a demand for electricity. It will be be met, one way or another. Hence, looking at the impact of hydropower in a vacuum is fallacious, because you’re only looking at half the picture. What we should be doing is comparing the impact of hydropower with the alternative it would be replacing, namely fossil fuels. So in addition to completely changing the local ecosystem, it would also eliminate a great deal of burning natural gas, oil, and coal per year, indefinitely (hydropower being a renewable resource).

I’m not saying I support it, just that a more honest analysis is called for, as we sit here using most likely coal-powered computers to criticize Brazil, which gets 80% of its electricity from renewable sources.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2011/02/09/indigenous-brazilian.html#comment-1023950 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1023950 OK so when does Jake Sully show up to protect the natives? OK so when does Jake Sully show up to protect the natives?

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2011/02/09/indigenous-brazilian.html#comment-1023454 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1023454 Moriarty FTW! I love dams, big, beautiful, environmentally friendly hydro dams. It is certainly possible to build dams that are not big, not beautiful, and dams that are environmentally destructive. But the idea that all dams are bad is stupid. After 20 years of study, I can tell you that there are good dams and bad dams. The only people who dispute this are willfully blind know-nothings and people with political axes to grind. These people often typify Heinlein's objection to rabid environmentalism - <i>There are hidden contradictions in the minds of people who "love Nature" while deploring the "artificialities" with which "Man has spoiled 'Nature.'" The obvious contradiction lies in their choice of words, which imply that Man and his artifacts are not part of "Nature" — but beavers and their dams are</i>. The people displaced by a project like this should be integrated into the project plan, and they should end up being major beneficiaries. Give anyone in their community a 100% free world-class education if they want it, that's never a bad idea, and encourage them to study ecology and hydro engineering. Give them worthwhile (not make-work) jobs, respect their culture, allow them land elsewhere if they choose to reject these things and continue a traditional agrarian or hunter/gatherer lifestyle. It's not a choice between crushing a people, building a environmental disaster, and sending the profits to rich parasites on the one hand, or continuing to burn coal and destroy jungle for factory farms on the other. There is always a Middle Path; that is the lesson of the Buddha. Moriarty FTW!

I love dams, big, beautiful, environmentally friendly hydro dams.

It is certainly possible to build dams that are not big, not beautiful, and dams that are environmentally destructive. But the idea that all dams are bad is stupid.

After 20 years of study, I can tell you that there are good dams and bad dams. The only people who dispute this are willfully blind know-nothings and people with political axes to grind. These people often typify Heinlein’s objection to rabid environmentalism – There are hidden contradictions in the minds of people who “love Nature” while deploring the “artificialities” with which “Man has spoiled ‘Nature.’” The obvious contradiction lies in their choice of words, which imply that Man and his artifacts are not part of “Nature” — but beavers and their dams are.

The people displaced by a project like this should be integrated into the project plan, and they should end up being major beneficiaries. Give anyone in their community a 100% free world-class education if they want it, that’s never a bad idea, and encourage them to study ecology and hydro engineering. Give them worthwhile (not make-work) jobs, respect their culture, allow them land elsewhere if they choose to reject these things and continue a traditional agrarian or hunter/gatherer lifestyle.

It’s not a choice between crushing a people, building a environmental disaster, and sending the profits to rich parasites on the one hand, or continuing to burn coal and destroy jungle for factory farms on the other. There is always a Middle Path; that is the lesson of the Buddha.

]]> By: Scrog Bot http://boingboing.net/2011/02/09/indigenous-brazilian.html#comment-1023204 Scrog Bot Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1023204 they punched in the wrong coordinates in the their time machine they punched in the wrong coordinates in the their time machine

]]> By: Scrog Bot http://boingboing.net/2011/02/09/indigenous-brazilian.html#comment-1023212 Scrog Bot Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1023212 in the first pic, is the fold in that guys ear just from stretching it out (like the girl with the lip disk) or is it just shaped that differently than mine? healthy set of moobs on these guys in pic 4 in the first pic, is the fold in that guys ear just from stretching it out (like the girl with the lip disk) or is it just shaped that differently than mine?

healthy set of moobs on these guys in pic 4

]]> By: classic01 http://boingboing.net/2011/02/09/indigenous-brazilian.html#comment-1023214 classic01 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1023214 The Brazilian center of government in Brazilia Built in 1956 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Montagem_Bras%C3%ADlia.jpg The Brazilian center of government in Brazilia Built in 1956

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Montagem_Bras%C3%ADlia.jpg

]]> By: Scrog Bot http://boingboing.net/2011/02/09/indigenous-brazilian.html#comment-1023215 Scrog Bot Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1023215 (i think thats a guy with the lip disk....) i dont mean to pick on these people. im in awe of the great photos of people way different than me, i fascinated by different cultures, and all cultures have moobs as far as i know, these guys are just great examples. (i think thats a guy with the lip disk….)

i dont mean to pick on these people. im in awe of the great photos of people way different than me, i fascinated by different cultures, and all cultures have moobs as far as i know, these guys are just great examples.

]]>