Comments on: Muslim student sues FBI over GPS tracking device placed on his car without a warrant http://boingboing.net/2011/03/04/muslim-student-sues.html Brain candy for Happy Mutants Tue, 18 Jun 2013 21:07:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: travtastic http://boingboing.net/2011/03/04/muslim-student-sues.html#comment-1044224 travtastic Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1044224 Stop misreading everything! They were just trying to get rid of their old tech. Although if they wanted to do it on the sly, someone should have brought up the fact that it appears to be half as big as the car. Stop misreading everything! They were just trying to get rid of their old tech. Although if they wanted to do it on the sly, someone should have brought up the fact that it appears to be half as big as the car.

]]> By: FuriousGeorge47 http://boingboing.net/2011/03/04/muslim-student-sues.html#comment-1043970 FuriousGeorge47 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1043970 The FBI was at first baffled as to how their GPS was receiving the movements of caged pigeons instead of their target. The FBI was at first baffled as to how their GPS was receiving the movements of caged pigeons instead of their target.

]]> By: Pseudothink http://boingboing.net/2011/03/04/muslim-student-sues.html#comment-1044227 Pseudothink Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1044227 In areas with decent cellular coverage, DIY "active" GPS tracking is pretty easy and inexpensive to do (under $100), with a significantly smaller form factor (only a cell phone): http://www.instamapper.com/diy.html One can power it from a car pretty easily too: http://forums.instamapper.com/viewtopic.php?id=1205 For around $200, one can get a cell phone modified to use a credit-card sized Li-Poly battery and an accelerometer that only turns it on when moved, which lasts ~3 weeks on a charge: http://forums.instamapper.com/viewtopic.php?id=348 Here are users' stories of neat (and completely legal) ways to use these tracking devices: http://forums.instamapper.com/viewforum.php?id=15&p=1 In areas with decent cellular coverage, DIY “active” GPS tracking is pretty easy and inexpensive to do (under $100), with a significantly smaller form factor (only a cell phone): http://www.instamapper.com/diy.html

One can power it from a car pretty easily too: http://forums.instamapper.com/viewtopic.php?id=1205

For around $200, one can get a cell phone modified to use a credit-card sized Li-Poly battery and an accelerometer that only turns it on when moved, which lasts ~3 weeks on a charge: http://forums.instamapper.com/viewtopic.php?id=348

Here are users’ stories of neat (and completely legal) ways to use these tracking devices: http://forums.instamapper.com/viewforum.php?id=15&p=1

]]> By: VillageIdiot http://boingboing.net/2011/03/04/muslim-student-sues.html#comment-1043973 VillageIdiot Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1043973 I don't care in the slightest about Mr. Afifi's activities. If he warranted surveillance, the FBI should have gotten a warrant, just like they do for everyone else. Circumventing the protections we have as citizens against abuses of the State are ruined if we allow the State to ignore them "For a good reason". I don’t care in the slightest about Mr. Afifi’s activities. If he warranted surveillance, the FBI should have gotten a warrant, just like they do for everyone else. Circumventing the protections we have as citizens against abuses of the State are ruined if we allow the State to ignore them “For a good reason”.

]]> By: Brainspore http://boingboing.net/2011/03/04/muslim-student-sues.html#comment-1043978 Brainspore Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1043978 That was a reference to "The Wire" in which a somewhat corrupt cop tries to get dirt on a suspect using a made-up informant and loses an expensive piece of surveillance equipment in the process. That was a reference to “The Wire” in which a somewhat corrupt cop tries to get dirt on a suspect using a made-up informant and loses an expensive piece of surveillance equipment in the process.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2011/03/04/muslim-student-sues.html#comment-1045262 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1045262 I don't think I would have returned it with retreivable information intact. Prying the case apart to try to find out what it was and accidently dropping it in the tiolet is unfortunate. But here is your GPS tracker. Too bad you didn't tell me what it was or that it was there so I could take care of it. I guess you could just ask me where I have gone. Of course, I'll politely decline to answer questions. I don’t think I would have returned it with retreivable information intact. Prying the case apart to try to find out what it was and accidently dropping it in the tiolet is unfortunate. But here is your GPS tracker. Too bad you didn’t tell me what it was or that it was there so I could take care of it. I guess you could just ask me where I have gone. Of course, I’ll politely decline to answer questions.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2011/03/04/muslim-student-sues.html#comment-1045266 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1045266 I don't get the whole "public road makes it ok" argument. They are planting the device on your personal property. It's different if they are actively tailing you because no one has touched your personal vehicle. Its like saying it would be ok to put a secret camera in your living room because "it is possible to look in the window from the sidewalk" I don’t get the whole “public road makes it ok” argument. They are planting the device on your personal property. It’s different if they are actively tailing you because no one has touched your personal vehicle.

Its like saying it would be ok to put a secret camera in your living room because “it is possible to look in the window from the sidewalk”

]]> By: mdh http://boingboing.net/2011/03/04/muslim-student-sues.html#comment-1043987 mdh Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1043987 ding ding ding. 5 points to you. Also, he should return it, when they've signed for it. ding ding ding. 5 points to you.

Also, he should return it, when they’ve signed for it.

]]> By: dunnright http://boingboing.net/2011/03/04/muslim-student-sues.html#comment-1043989 dunnright Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1043989 Shouldn't his description read an "Egyptian-American student of the Muslim faith" rather than "Muslim-American student of Egyptian descent"? Shouldn’t his description read an “Egyptian-American student of the Muslim faith” rather than “Muslim-American student of Egyptian descent”?

]]> By: mccrum http://boingboing.net/2011/03/04/muslim-student-sues.html#comment-1043993 mccrum Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1043993 Best line from the Wired article: “We have all the information we needed,” they told him. “You don’t need to call your lawyer. Don’t worry, you’re boring.“ Oh, you've secretly been tracking me without a warrant but now that you've promised me I don't need a lawyer I won't worry about a thing. Thanks guys, we're having a little family barbecue next week, why don't you guys come on by? Bring the black helicopters for the kids! Any reassurance from them at that point is kind of useless, no matter how well-intentioned it may have been. Best line from the Wired article:
“We have all the information we needed,” they told him. “You don’t need to call your lawyer. Don’t worry, you’re boring.“

Oh, you’ve secretly been tracking me without a warrant but now that you’ve promised me I don’t need a lawyer I won’t worry about a thing. Thanks guys, we’re having a little family barbecue next week, why don’t you guys come on by? Bring the black helicopters for the kids!

Any reassurance from them at that point is kind of useless, no matter how well-intentioned it may have been.

]]> By: wil9000 http://boingboing.net/2011/03/04/muslim-student-sues.html#comment-1044005 wil9000 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1044005 I know that TV bears no relation to reality, but on most cop shows, gps tracking devices are about the size of a quarter. Heck, on NCIS-LA, I think they had a gps tracker built into a spray. One spray of this "thing" on your neck, and they could track you all over the world. From the looks of what a real FBI tracker looks like, you'd think they'd never put that over on anyone. I know that TV bears no relation to reality, but on most cop shows, gps tracking devices are about the size of a quarter. Heck, on NCIS-LA, I think they had a gps tracker built into a spray. One spray of this “thing” on your neck, and they could track you all over the world. From the looks of what a real FBI tracker looks like, you’d think they’d never put that over on anyone.

]]> By: johnnyaction http://boingboing.net/2011/03/04/muslim-student-sues.html#comment-1044262 johnnyaction Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1044262 Explain this: I'm sitting here in my house and the gps works on my phone. Not cell gps but actual gps. Explain this: I’m sitting here in my house and the gps works on my phone. Not cell gps but actual gps.

]]> By: lyd http://boingboing.net/2011/03/04/muslim-student-sues.html#comment-1044010 lyd Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1044010 Most of that is batteries. Most of that is batteries.

]]> By: Stonewalker http://boingboing.net/2011/03/04/muslim-student-sues.html#comment-1044015 Stonewalker Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1044015 If that is true then they should have secured a warrant. It's fine for the various Law Enforcement Agencies of the country to keep an eye on suspected Terrorists. It's even OK to bug their houses, cars and phones - as long as they have a warrant that explains why this person is suspected of what crimes and describes the places/things to be bugged/searched. That warrant needs to be signed by a judge. All of this is in the 4th amendment. Doing any of that stuff without a warrant, however, violates the 4th amendment. It's absolutely dangerous and anti-liberty to allow violations on the Bill of Rights to keep us "safer". If that is true then they should have secured a warrant. It’s fine for the various Law Enforcement Agencies of the country to keep an eye on suspected Terrorists. It’s even OK to bug their houses, cars and phones – as long as they have a warrant that explains why this person is suspected of what crimes and describes the places/things to be bugged/searched. That warrant needs to be signed by a judge. All of this is in the 4th amendment.

Doing any of that stuff without a warrant, however, violates the 4th amendment. It’s absolutely dangerous and anti-liberty to allow violations on the Bill of Rights to keep us “safer”.

]]> By: Brainspore http://boingboing.net/2011/03/04/muslim-student-sues.html#comment-1044020 Brainspore Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1044020 Seriously, people... just Google "Fuzzy Dunlop." Seriously, people… just Google “Fuzzy Dunlop.”

]]> By: VillageIdiot http://boingboing.net/2011/03/04/muslim-student-sues.html#comment-1044021 VillageIdiot Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1044021 This depends largely on whether you're using a passive, or active tracker. Passive trackers only record the location they've been, or can be found by a separate locating device used nearby (think radioactive markers). Active trackers must transmit the information they collect, and that consumes a huge amount of power. Think of it as a cell phone that must go weeks or longer without recharging, and suddenly the size makes more sense. This depends largely on whether you’re using a passive, or active tracker.

Passive trackers only record the location they’ve been, or can be found by a separate locating device used nearby (think radioactive markers).

Active trackers must transmit the information they collect, and that consumes a huge amount of power. Think of it as a cell phone that must go weeks or longer without recharging, and suddenly the size makes more sense.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2011/03/04/muslim-student-sues.html#comment-1045311 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1045311 is that a 15th century gps device? is that a 15th century gps device?

]]> By: lyd http://boingboing.net/2011/03/04/muslim-student-sues.html#comment-1044288 lyd Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1044288 You need to do 10 minutes of research before spouting off like that, Vain, or at least read the links in the post. That tracker is a standard unit commercially-produced and sold to law enforcement for years, along with the required subscription to proprietary tracking software. All of this has been extensively investigated and discussed over the past year. Not to rain on anyone's parade. You need to do 10 minutes of research before spouting off like that, Vain, or at least read the links in the post. That tracker is a standard unit commercially-produced and sold to law enforcement for years, along with the required subscription to proprietary tracking software.

All of this has been extensively investigated and discussed over the past year.

Not to rain on anyone’s parade.

]]> By: ill lich http://boingboing.net/2011/03/04/muslim-student-sues.html#comment-1045061 ill lich Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1045061 Every time I hear about this story I am amazed that the FBI had the balls/stupidity to ask for an illegally planted device back. A.) it was put there without a warrant, and B.) it was a secret, in both cases you don't admit that it's yours. What kind of dolts is the FBI hiring these days? Every time I hear about this story I am amazed that the FBI had the balls/stupidity to ask for an illegally planted device back. A.) it was put there without a warrant, and B.) it was a secret, in both cases you don’t admit that it’s yours. What kind of dolts is the FBI hiring these days?

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2011/03/04/muslim-student-sues.html#comment-1044040 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1044040 Did he get a receipt? I like to think that I'd insist on one, but the reality is that in real life, dealing with law enforcement people who have ALREADY demonstrated that they may be playing fast and loose with the rules would be pretty scary. Did he get a receipt? I like to think that I’d insist on one, but the reality is that in real life, dealing with law enforcement people who have ALREADY demonstrated that they may be playing fast and loose with the rules would be pretty scary.

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2011/03/04/muslim-student-sues.html#comment-1044297 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1044297 You do realize the FBI does not need a warrant to follow a car around right? They can follow you around all they want. You can follow around anyone you want, I can follow you around if I want. What they need the warrant for is to go inside your house and search for things. Not saying this is right, but I believe a court case determined it was legal since they don't need a warrant to follow a car driving around on public roads You do realize the FBI does not need a warrant to follow a car around right? They can follow you around all they want. You can follow around anyone you want, I can follow you around if I want. What they need the warrant for is to go inside your house and search for things. Not saying this is right, but I believe a court case determined it was legal since they don’t need a warrant to follow a car driving around on public roads

]]> By: Raines Cohen http://boingboing.net/2011/03/04/muslim-student-sues.html#comment-1044042 Raines Cohen Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1044042 My neighbor Judy Gumbo Albert last Fall posted an excerpt from her forthcoming "Yippie Girl" memoirs about her unwarranted FBI tracking experience with a similar looking device -- 35 years ago: http://yippiegirl.com/the-more-things-change.html My neighbor Judy Gumbo Albert last Fall posted an excerpt from her forthcoming “Yippie Girl” memoirs about her unwarranted FBI tracking experience with a similar looking device — 35 years ago:

http://yippiegirl.com/the-more-things-change.html

]]> By: benbark http://boingboing.net/2011/03/04/muslim-student-sues.html#comment-1044043 benbark Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1044043 seems like you could get out of this legal loophole simply by driving down a private road. seems like you could get out of this legal loophole simply by driving down a private road.

]]> By: Rindan http://boingboing.net/2011/03/04/muslim-student-sues.html#comment-1046092 Rindan Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1046092 <BLOCKQUOTE>You do realize the FBI does not need a warrant to follow a car around right? They can follow you around all they want. You can follow around anyone you want, I can follow you around if I want. What they need the warrant for is to go inside your house and search for things. Not saying this is right, but I believe a court case determined it was legal since they don't need a warrant to follow a car driving around on public roads</BLOCKQUOTE> And you wonder why people hate lawyers? Anyone who reads the 4th amendment and some how manages to twist the meaning of that into "the government can track your every move without warrant" is either a fucking idiot or a lawyer. The fact that it is feasible that someone could tail you 24/7 is pretty handily limited by the fact that it would take massive resources and still be prone to failure. Slapping a GPS onto someone's car on the other hand is trivial and cheap. The law, and certainly the intention the law, was to keep the government from stalking its citizens without just cause and oversight. The fact that technology has made stalking cheap doesn't make it suddenly okay.

You do realize the FBI does not need a warrant to follow a car around right? They can follow you around all they want. You can follow around anyone you want, I can follow you around if I want. What they need the warrant for is to go inside your house and search for things. Not saying this is right, but I believe a court case determined it was legal since they don’t need a warrant to follow a car driving around on public roads

And you wonder why people hate lawyers? Anyone who reads the 4th amendment and some how manages to twist the meaning of that into “the government can track your every move without warrant” is either a fucking idiot or a lawyer.

The fact that it is feasible that someone could tail you 24/7 is pretty handily limited by the fact that it would take massive resources and still be prone to failure. Slapping a GPS onto someone’s car on the other hand is trivial and cheap. The law, and certainly the intention the law, was to keep the government from stalking its citizens without just cause and oversight. The fact that technology has made stalking cheap doesn’t make it suddenly okay.

]]> By: mn_camera http://boingboing.net/2011/03/04/muslim-student-sues.html#comment-1044045 mn_camera Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1044045 Dude should have found a bridge over a railroad line, waited for a passing, open-topped hopper car, and dropped it. OOPS! Dude should have found a bridge over a railroad line, waited for a passing, open-topped hopper car, and dropped it.

OOPS!

]]> By: Anonymous http://boingboing.net/2011/03/04/muslim-student-sues.html#comment-1044314 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1044314 I can't wait until all-composite bodied cars are available to mere mortals. Magnets won't stick to carbon fibre. They'll have to find another way. I can’t wait until all-composite bodied cars are available to mere mortals. Magnets won’t stick to carbon fibre. They’ll have to find another way.

]]> By: johnnyaction http://boingboing.net/2011/03/04/muslim-student-sues.html#comment-1044062 johnnyaction Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1044062 The FBI has a history of "forgetting" to get warrants and overstepping their bounds. Cell phones are some of the most perfect tracking devices. They have GPS in it and most people don't go anywhere without one. That and your cell phone microphone in some cases can be turned on for eavesdropping without you knowing about it. The FBI has a history of “forgetting” to get warrants and overstepping their bounds.

Cell phones are some of the most perfect tracking devices. They have GPS in it and most people don’t go anywhere without one. That and your cell phone microphone in some cases can be turned on for eavesdropping without you knowing about it.

]]> By: Baldhead http://boingboing.net/2011/03/04/muslim-student-sues.html#comment-1044067 Baldhead Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1044067 While disposing of the device iscertainly cathartic, I should think keeping it and making a big stink with the media and lawyaers would get better results in general. Of course there's always going to be people in government comfortable with breaking their own rules, but they should always be called out when caught. While disposing of the device iscertainly cathartic, I should think keeping it and making a big stink with the media and lawyaers would get better results in general. Of course there’s always going to be people in government comfortable with breaking their own rules, but they should always be called out when caught.

]]> By: Brainspore http://boingboing.net/2011/03/04/muslim-student-sues.html#comment-1044079 Brainspore Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1044079 I second Baldhead. Having the physical evidence is what makes the difference between "FBI caught practicing warrantless surveillance" and "paranoid Muslim claims the government is watching him." I second Baldhead. Having the physical evidence is what makes the difference between “FBI caught practicing warrantless surveillance” and “paranoid Muslim claims the government is watching him.”

]]> By: Lucifer http://boingboing.net/2011/03/04/muslim-student-sues.html#comment-1044081 Lucifer Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-1044081 they're probably "collecting info" which, if found damning and worth using as evidence, would then require a warrant... That's FBI's way of shooting blindly into the night with a shotgun and then going to obtain a hunting license if they see anything dead. Just like in my analogy, the point is that you need the warrant in order to intrude into people's privacy, not after the intrusive observations into their privacy proves prosecutable. Otherwise, Big Brother should be able to watch all of you going about your private lives and only get warrants to go bust the "bad apples". That is not the basis of our democratic law enforcement philosophy. they’re probably “collecting info” which, if found damning and worth using as evidence, would then require a warrant… That’s FBI’s way of shooting blindly into the night with a shotgun and then going to obtain a hunting license if they see anything dead. Just like in my analogy, the point is that you need the warrant in order to intrude into people’s privacy, not after the intrusive observations into their privacy proves prosecutable. Otherwise, Big Brother should be able to watch all of you going about your private lives and only get warrants to go bust the “bad apples”. That is not the basis of our democratic law enforcement philosophy.

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