White House modifies earlier reports of Bin Laden raid

Early reports from the White House on the details of the operation that killed Osama bin Laden are now confirmed to have been partly inaccurate.

White House spokesman Jay Carney, in a briefing to reporters taking place as I type this post, has confirmed that bin Laden was not armed, as initially stated. Carney says bin Laden "resisted," but had no weapon. How did he resist? Carney defers to the Pentagon, does not answer.

Early White House accounts of bin Laden's wife having been killed, and being used as a "human shield" to protect the Al Qaeda mastermind, are now confirmed to be false. This is notable: the idea of a bad guy using a woman's body (his wife's!) to deflect bullets is an emotionally charged visual, to say the least, and created a flutter of dramatically charged tweets and headlines and pundit rants yesterday. How did this false "human shield" detail happen, and become so widely repeated in the news cycle? Carney attributes this to "the fog of war."

Carney reads from a prepared Department of Defense statement: "In the room with Bin Laden, a woman, Bin Laden's wife, rushed the U.S. assaulter and was shot in the leg but not killed."

At least one "gruesome" photograph of bin Laden dead exists, says Carney, but none have been released yet. There are concerns that doing so would be "inflammatory," ~~and no decision to release has been made~~—[Update: a photo of Osama bin Laden's death will be released, the CIA later stated.]

Did torture lead the US to bin Laden's hiding place? "No one piece" of information did, says Carney, it was an array of data gathered in different methods over time. Has Obama changed his views on torture? "No."

The US is analyzing computers and various storage devices seized during the raid to gather more intelligence.

Regarding the relationship between the US and Pakistan, Carney explains it in Facebookese (and this is a direct quote): "It's complicated."

Related reading: Here, Politico picks apart how the White House has tweaked the official story since news first broke. And the New York Times has the tick-tock here, the most compelling account I can find. 79 commandos, 4 helicopters, in and out in less than one hour.

Even the NYT's account would appear to have inaccuracies now: They report that "Geronimo" was code name for bin Laden, but CNN cites an administration official later clarifying that this was the code name for the operation, not the man himself.

The takeaway for all of us, perhaps, is to be skeptical of first accounts, no matter where they come from, and to repeat the oft-uttered Wikipedian refrain. "Citation, please."

Update, 1139am PT: The NYT Lede blog has been liveblogging this morning's press briefing, and has the prepared statement from which he read. And Anthony de la Rosa at soupsoup has the statement here ("Official Department of Defense Narrative of Bin Laden Operation Events").

(PHOTO: A man pauses to take photos of newspapers left on a fence at the World Trade Center site in New York, May 3, 2011 after U.S. forces killed Osama Bin Laden in Pakistan early Monday. REUTERS/Mike Segar)

Boing Boing editor/partner and tech culture journalist Xeni Jardin hosts and produces Boing Boing's in-flight TV channel on Virgin America airlines (#10 on the dial), and writes about living with breast cancer. Diagnosed in 2011. @xeni on Twitter. email: xeni@boingboing.net.

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The Snowden Principle

hooch66

“Has Obama changed his views on torture? “No.”"

In other words, then, he’s still for it.
Anonymous

I agree with Matt. At the moment, everyone is believing the words of politicians. That doesn’t seem to logical does it?
Where is the evidence? A twitter feed? This wouldn’t be the first CIA masterminded propaganda operation. Anyone remember Private Jessica Lynch?
Anonymous

Has Obama changed his views on torture? “No.”

Could have fooled me!

Senator Obama: rendering captives to foreign torturers is morally wrong.

President Obama: Morals are for presidential candidates, not sitting presidents! Have you seen my “Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation” coffee mug here?
Anonymous

They lied! I’m so shocked. War without declaration from Congress, botched occupations, bankrupt treasuries in the name of serving strategic interests, a police state here at home, massive degrading of the 4th Amendment, all these I can understand … but THEY LIED, to US? I’m shocked, aren’t you?
Anonymous

It is amazing how people are willing to accept the Government version of the truth, and then accept the oopsie afterwards.

While it is nice they got the “most wanted terrorist” in the world, if your removed from the “he did it to me” point of view you find yourself at a loss. I long for the old westerns where bad guys always had black hats and the good guy had a white hat.

The leader of a group was executed, and the assassins released a press release adding facts to make their actions look acceptable beyond acts he took credit for.

A group of people were executed, and the self proclaimed leader of that group released a press release justifying these actions for the formers “attack” on his religion.

When you become what you sought to stop…

Bin Laden used terror to try to change the world, to what he wanted.
US Government uses fear of terror to change the world, to what they want.

This raid more than likely changes nothing, except there will be more people moved to action against the US as payback. And one lone psycho will find something new, and citizens will loose more rights as we move to stop the last attack again.

It plays well in the media, and creates a strong national identity.
It also continues the tit for tat approach that keeps escalating the problems we all face.

He was not the leader of a country, his removal will not spur democracy to sweep his “land” as “his” people rise up and go all well behaved people. I dread where this will lead.
Rotwang

The government and military will lie. A known fact with plenty of proof. If you don’t believe me, ask Pat Tillman.

Why should we believe any of this?
- Brainspore
  
  Why should we believe any of this?
  
  I believe that Bin Laden is dead because even a dishonest administration would likely avoid telling a lie of that magnitude if it could be easily falsified. If Bin Laden released a video tomorrow proving that he was still alive there’s no way in hell anyone involved with the story could survive the political fallout.
  
  All the other details should be taken with the appropriate grain of salt.
MrWednesday

79 commandos…AND A DOG!

Where was the kitteh!

This is my fatuous comment.
Verre

“Pundit Rant” is the new name of my band.
angusm

Oddly, the first version that I heard was that the dead woman was shielding (or was used as a shield by) “a combatant” with the suggestion that the man in question was not UBL. Then somehow that version gave way to one in which UBL was the one involved. And now the story is swinging back to the first version.

I think some of the confusion may be caused by journalists recording ill-informed speculation as fact, or a kind of ‘Chinese whispers’ effect where facts are getting distorted as they get passed on. But the White House doesn’t seem to have its story straight either. I know that this kind of situation is apt to be confusing for all concerned, but could someone really not come up with a twenty-point list of “Things that we know happened, and the order they happened in”?
Zaphod

I find somewhat strange that they didn’t manage to get the man alive, given that the op likely went down smoothly, since there were no losses on the assault team (who knows maybe someone was wounded).

Unless the order was to kill, and then the question would be why exactly was that, or maybe they got him alive and faked his death.

Who knows…
Anonymous

“Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practise to deceive!” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Scott
“They will expel you from the synagogues; in fact, the hour is coming when everyone who kills you will think he is offering worship to God. They will do this because they have not known either the Father or me.” The hour Jesus was talking about is happening now. I’m just sayin’.
http://www.songmeanings.net/songs/view/4251/
offspring come out and play live http://youtu.be/7OZWJbx13ns
V

From the NYT article:

“In February, Mr. Panetta called Vice Adm. William H. McRaven, commander of the Pentagonâ€™s Joint Special Operations Command, to C.I.A. headquarters in Langley, Va., to give him details about the compound and to begin planning a military strike.”

OK, say what you will, but a guy named McRaven? That’s badass.

Another irreverent detail; “A staffer went to Costco and came back with a mix of provisions â€” turkey pita wraps, cold shrimp, potato chips, soda.”

“Dude, they just sent Skippy out for turkey pita wraps – something big is going down…”
Kosmoid

OT, maybe: I’m tired of these malaproprisms. Plz, no more “decapitating the head of the snake.” Would you ever decapitate its tail? Now, on MSNBC, t-head is talking about “cutting off the head of the cancer.”

Get to work.
nehoccramcire

I like Matt’s injection of reality into this thread.

He’s as baffled as I am as to why we should believe anything any President of the USA tells us about what happened out of sight of anyone but his own agents.

I want evidence, even though I know it’s not forthcoming; there’ll be a picture or two that comes out, but it won’t satisfy. We just have to live with it.
emmdeeaych

I think Obama is wise to let the hotheads who make stuff up and spread rumors show themselves for who they are.

Carnival Barkers.
Mujokan

Turning a couple of differing accounts with slightly different details into “How can we believe any of this?” is how you end up on infowars.com.

You always need to look at the overall logic to assess probabilities on questions like “Is Osama really dead?” just as with “Did they plant explosives in the Twin Towers?”

“You can never trust the government” type statements are asinine and don’t add anything to the discussion.

The best reason for shooting bin Laden in the head and burying him in the Arabian Sea is that you make life a whole lot more simpler for yourself. There are also good arguments against releasing photos and video, though I imagine some will come out eventually. In any case, such evidence is only probabilistic these days.

If you somehow already knew that bin Laden was never going to resurface, and wanted to take credit for killing him, you could easily enough just drop a bunker buster on a random mansion and leave it at that. There’s no good reason I can think of for sending in helicopters, with all the risks of failure that entails, then making up a lie that you dumped the body in the sea. It’s more complicated and risky than is needed to achieve the desired result, as with the “controlled demolition theory”.
ultranaut

“Even the NYT…”
For real?!
Revisorius

Bummer. I think revisions like this can play into the hands of the detractors. While it sounds like the dissemination of misinformation was an error, I hope the Administration strives for more accuracy in the future
- hassenpfeffer
  
  Alas, “accuracy” from any part of the federal government is something I have come NOT to expect. WMDs! Deficits! Troop numbers!
- Jack
  
  This all happened 2 day ago. The blame should be put on 24 hour news cycles and the pressure to get the news out as quickly as possible.
  
  I had no doubt the details would differ days later, but the core concept of Osama being found and killed is solid. He asked for it. He got it.
  
  Some people might like to defend the ethics of killing an â€œunarmed manâ€ but whatever. His guilt was self-admitted and remorseless. If you learn anything about conspiracy theorists is even when faced with facts, they will warp it all to fit the delusions in their own mind.
  
  The larger question needs to be how dysfunctional is Pakistanâ€™s government. I am starting to believe the place is such a mess that Asif Ali Zardari really and truly had no idea whatâ€™s up because the ISI and military there is so corrupt even heâ€™s not connected to reality.
  - Xeni Jardin
    
    The blame should be put on 24 hour news cycles and the pressure to get the news out as quickly as possible.
    
    No. Blame belongs at the source. The White House issued this false statement, the news networks then amplified it.
    - PaulR
      
      If you ask me, the blame is on both parties: the source and the media.
      
      Y’know, “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, I’ll get fooled again, and again, and again…” (Yeah, that’s what Bush wanted to say…)
      
      Gleen Greenwald’s saying the same thing I am, but with linky goodness:
      http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/05/03/propaganda_bin_laden/index.html
    - Anonymous
      
      I think there is a big difference between “False statement being corrected” and “official story being tweaked” and “Initial impressions being updated as the situation becomes clearer.”
      
      According to CNN’s account Two women were shot, one died from her injuries, there was some confusion about which woman was with Bin Laden, etc. This does not sound the whitehouse intentionally misleading the public, it sounds like confusion.
    - Jack
      
      No. Blame belongs at the source. The White House issued this false statement, the news networks then amplified it.
      
      Is this really the first time in the history of politics or news that news reports close to an event differ from reports that are sent out days, weeks, months after the event?
      
      And you truly believe that 24 hour news cycles do not affect editorial judgement? Just look at that fake Osama corpse picture; many reputable news sources printed that and used it as a â€œfactâ€ without any verification.
      
      There is generally less and less fact-checking nowadays. Itâ€™s all focused on speed above quality and the 24 hour news cycle is clearly to blame. Why else would the White House feel compelled to release details before they are solidified?
  - Anonymous
    
    This is super creepy. I’m sure it feels good, but try not turning into what we’ve despised for the past 10 years. Take a step back and imagine yourself saying this about the people in Gitmo. Or fucking anyone. We even gave Nazis a trial. *sigh*
Anonymous

“The fog of war”?
Or lies, disinformation and propaganda?
Jessica Lynch, anyone?
Thorzdad

Damn. BoingBoing is starting to sound more foil-hat than a Glenn Beck rant.
- Matt
  
  I guess BoingBoing readers must fall into the category of the mainstream masses then, that never ask questions but just go with the flow?
  
  By the way I can’t stand Glenn Beck myself, he’s a shill and this has nothing to do with him.
  
  The BoingBoing crowd just seems too cool for school to actually ask any questions.
  
  I guess the governments have never lied to us. I guess the past leaders have never lied to us.
  
  Please disprove people like me who are sceptic of the official story. Ask the Obama Administration why we can’t see any real evidence of Osama’s death yet?
  
  Why did they dump him into the Arabic Sea which is 1000′s miles away from where they shot him?
  
  Why did they kill the Bastard if he was unarmed? Why wasn’t he put under trial? He got away way too easy if we shall believe the official story.
  
  By the way, Benazir Bhutto too said Bin Laden was already dead (she was murdered unfortunately): http://youtu.be/UnychOXj9Tg
  - Brainspore
    
    Please disprove people like me who are sceptic of the official story…
    
    Whether the information is true or not the “disprove me!” challenge is a fool’s game. I’ve heard that phrase used enough times by Birthers, Truthers, Moon Landing Hoaxers and Secret World Government aficionados to know that nothing useful can be gained by trying.
  - Anonymous
    
    Benazir Bhutto is no more an authority than Dick Cheney. Or did you think that the moment someone died, everything they ever said automatically became true?
    
    UBL did not die in 2003, he died this weekend. Whatever errors and falsifications there are, that basic fact is almost certainly true, because otherwise SOMEONE involved in the falsification would have broken. It’s like the Moon landings: if they had been faked, sooner or later, one of the astronauts, or one of the ground crew, or one of the engineers, or someone on the White House staff would have talked and would have had tangible evidence.
Daemon

So, they admit he didn’t have a weapon… In that case they were criminally negligent for failing to take him alive.
Anonymous

Oh, we mistakenly claimed he had a gun.
Oh, we mistakenly claimed he used his wife as a shield.
Oh, we mistakenly claimed he used any woman as a shield.

How very handy those “mistakes” were! What a coindidence!

Unless the full, unedited photos and videos are disclosed and provide evidence for the White House description of events I will call this exactly what it looks like: murder, plain and simple. Investigate Obama and his team for war crimes.

The bloodthirsty US murder fan boy mentality on display these last few days is a real threat to the world, ensuring new wars, new Abu Ghraibs and new Guantanamos in the years to come…

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/05/03/propaganda_bin_laden/index.html
Major Variola (ret)

They went in and shot everyone.

Due process??
teapot

Remember that whole “Dead or Alive” rhetoric that Bush spouted? If anyone has an issue with OBL being brutally murdered you should have probably made more noise about it then, instead of being surprised now. “Dead or Alive” is pretty specific.

The human shield story? I’m willing to believe that at least one situation in the raid involved someone at some point making some action that could be construed as using a woman as a shield, but that could be anything from diving for cover behind the same sofa as her to bank-job style hostage technique (which I feel is unlikely). In any case I find it really hard to imagine a hard-ass motherfucker like OBL using anyone as a shield in such a moment as he was in that moment certainly under no illusions that he was fucked.

I am starting to believe the place is such a mess that Asif Ali Zardari really and truly had no idea whatâ€™s up because the ISI and military there is so corrupt even heâ€™s not connected to reality.

Jack: As far as I understand it the ISI, military and Pakistan government are structured in such a way where they are completely separate and there is very little oversight between the bodies. That is no excuse, but it is a reason.
Mujokan

It was about 900 miles away. Closest aircraft carrier. Islamic ritual was just because why provoke ordinary Muslims needlessly? Going into the sea was to avoid having a burial site. In Islamic practice you can bury people at sea if you think they might be dug up and mutilated. Stretching it of course, but it’s more that (a) they want him not to have a grave and (b) given that requirement, they’ll go as Islam as they can to avoid provoking people. It’s all just cost/benefit.
- Matt
  
  And that’s exactly it! Honey, I heard American Gladiators is on, am I missing it?
  - Nonentity
    
    If you don’t want to be accused of a tinfoil hat for posting a long list of things that you believe are problems with the stated events, then you probably shouldn’t accuse people of being “sheeple” or “in denial” when they point out (with citations) that some of what you posted aren’t really anywhere near as large of a problem as you implied. You’d look a lot more rational if you conceded the facts or gave an actual argument (without insults) for why you think they don’t apply.
    
    Just sayin’.
olmsteader

You never give away your hand immediately after you are dealt it, any poker player knows that. I’m sure Obama will wait just long enough to release the photos to be sure that all the doubters look like complete fools. Worked pretty well with Trump.
Drabula

for what it’s worth i think the revelation that he was unarmed when he was killed is going to inflame his fan base far more than any photo would.
i hesitate to get involved in the conspiracy angle, but it seems to me the real morsel for ‘conspiracy types’ should be – was he executed because of all the naughty secrets he knew?
I don’t think any western powers had much to fear from what Nazis on trial in Nurnberg had to say but perhaps they DO have something to fear from Osama on trial?
Alex

What about another internets favorite…

Pics or it didn’t happen!
tinyinkling

Well, here’s hoping the correction on “Geronimo” is accurate. I was aghast that they’d taken the name of an Apache war leader resisting the absorption of his people’s lands and assigned it to a mass murderer. It succeeds in elevating Bin Laden’s cause and justifying continuing anti-indigenous racism in one embarrassing swoop.
Anonymous

Just edit the information and pop it down the tube, the alterations will be rectified at the Head Office. We were never at War with EastAsia, we’ve always been at war with Eurasia.
MrsBug

I’m impressed that she only got shot in the leg. With as jacked up as everyone on the assault team must’ve been, someone was acting cool under fire to simply disable her and not kill her. That’s a seriously in-control dude.
- Loraan
  
  IMO, it’s vanishingly unlikely that anybody got shot in the leg on purpose. Nobody who knows what they’re doing in a combat or self-defense situation attempts to make disabling shots. If you’re going to shoot at someone, the situation is, de facto, serious enough that their death is an expected outcome. Ergo: it was probably a miss.
Anonymous

Couple questions I have which I haven’t seen answered yet (either because they’ve been overlooked and haven’t come up yet, or because I have overlooked the answers…):

How many people were encountered at the compound? Was anyone arrested/detained? What about the injured people, were they cared for or flown out? Where are they now? What about the corpses other than bin Laden’s, were they buried at sea as well, or left at the compound, or placed in cold storage? How exactly do all those numbers break down?
- cbuchner1
  
  Dear Anon from post #61, these are very good questions and I really wonder why the media haven’t insisted on getting these answered.
Matt

New poll says 80% of America wants to see the photos. So show them to us.

What do you have to hide, Obama administration and Pentagon?
Don

I always thought that wife-as-human-shield story had a strong odor to it. Way too convenient to the propagandists, who probably realize that the debunking will be heard by only a fraction of the people who heard the first account.
- mappo
  
  I agree, it smelled like propaganda to me as well. They might as well have said he twisted his mustache and sneered while he did it.
Strabo

*sigh*

I thought it was odd that the reports said he was shot in the head after pulling a weapon (I’m pretty sure real soldiers are going to go for center mass and not a headshot kill unless they’re really close range. Headshots are for video games and summary executions after the fact.)

As disappointed as I am that this news seems to imply we shot an unarmed man, I guess we can still be thankful that they didn’t bring him back alive to be undoubtedly tortured and tried in a military tribunal in an unfair trial (I know, saying “military tribunal” and “unfair” in the same sentence is kind of redundant).

Bin Laden is a vicious bastard, but torturing him wouldn’t be revenge and it wouldn’t get back the last ten years or reverse our slide towards totalitarianism; torturing him and putting him through a kangaroo court would just turn us into vicious bastards too.

Not that we aren’t already.
Anonymous

Surely they should have given Osama the code name “#1 Most Wanted Evil Terrorist”, which would have thrown everyone off.
Anonymous

Isn’t it obvious that the photos are being kept secret because they would inflame the hearts of any would-be terrorists that exist in the world?

I’m fine with never seeing Bin Laden’s body, it makes no difference to me, but I can see how it might make a big difference to all the wrong people.
Mujokan

The only reason not to show the photos is the same as for the sea burial — give nothing that plays into an OBL cult. Probably they will be released at some point, but if they are I bet you one million dollars that someone on infowars or freerepublic will post telling us exactly how they were faked. In any case, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Anonymous

Is anyone really surprised by this? I honestly can’t believe that anyone actually believes Bin Laden is dead without having seen the body. This is just like the toppling of the Saddam statue all over again. Are Americans just too stupid to learn *anything* from history?
Art

I could really care less about the details. I’m simply thrilled they got the son of a bitch.
- Don
  
  The only difference between self-defence, and summary execution of an unarmed prisoner, is details.
  - Art
    
    You are 100% correct.
    
    And I’m still glad they got the son of a bitch.
Rob

Fog of war? There’s one freaking source, wait until the damn debriefing is done.
Anonymous

Osama’s crimes pale in comparison to those of the USA. But keep buying your cheap trinkets and waving you flags. It’s like you’re all in a weirdo cult. If you keep believing you’re own hype, it must be true right.
Kosmoid

What I wanna know is who was the interior designer for this “mansion”? Looks like a crackhead was in charge. They couldn’t go to the local Ikea and get something that was simple, stylish, yet functional?
- Jack
  
  There needs to be some compiled source of folks making passive-aggresive swipes against (1) how much Osamaâ€™s â€œmansionâ€ doesnâ€™t match the Western concept of â€œmansionâ€ is and (2) how the White House situation room looks like a â€œdump.â€
  
  Itâ€™s like everyone expects reality to be movie sets.
- scolbath
  
  I guess $1m doesn’t go as far in Abbotabad as it used to. Now Al Qaeda has to make the mortgage or Countrywide is gonna foreclose…
Gainclone

Oliver Stone will no doubt keep the “Human Shield” detail in his screenplay of the account.
Anonymous

President and his staff were watching the whole episode live. I could bet my right hand on the fact, that there is no confusion to the President and his staff about these different details of the homicide (yes, no matter how you bend it, it is a homicide). And then checking press releases for factual errors somehow mysteriously fails. I could understand that if no details were available, that false talk would ensue. But the freaking thing was documented 100%.

Now the only questions is; why are they lying to us on so many things?

disclaimer: I live in one of the countries not considered part of the “axis of evil”, I don’t vote for commies and I’m not a muslim.
Teller

Okay, guys. He’s not dead. Make a sign, pick a street corner and give the world incontrovertible evidence of your belief.
Anonymous

I’m having a hard time simply swallowing what the administration is saying too. Really, all of a sudden, we’re told that Osama was killed in a raid by Navy SEALs, DNA testing confirmed it was him, AND he’s already been buried at sea so that no outside parties can ever see the body or take samples for independent testing? Maybe it’s true, but I think it’s also likely that the US gov’t found nearly incontrovertible evidence that Osama bin Laden was killed/died a while ago and realized they would look like huge fools if the public came to know that we’d been doing all this sh– to catch a terrorist that was already dead. So, better to spin a story that can be turned to political advantage.
daneyul

>> Brainspore, that’s reductivist to the point of absurdity.

Boy, you sure showed him!
Brainspore

You call that fabricating a narrative?! Somebody’s got to hook up this administration with whoever concocted that story about the rescue of Private Jessica Lynch or the heroic final battle of Pat Tillman.
- TEKNA2007
  
  [blockquote]You call that fabricating a narrative?! Somebody’s got to hook up this administration with whoever concocted that story about the rescue of Private Jessica Lynch or the heroic final battle of Pat Tillman.[/blockquote]
  
  WMD (lie)
  Unprovoked attack by North Vietnamese in Gulf of Tonkin (lie)
  B-29 engines completely safe but details are militarily sensitive (lie, creating the precedent of the State Secrets Privilege)
  
  The list goes on and on.
  
  I woke up thinking the part about using a spare wife as a human shield can’t be right. I’m not surprised to hear it wasn’t that way after all.
- imag
  
  Agreed.
  
  And to me, the fact that some of the details were wrong and are being corrected is more proof that this actually happened. If they tried to fabricate Osama’s death from nothing, as claimed by some conspiracy theorists, the story would be airtight, triple-checked, and consistent.
daneyul

…They could’ve easily just wounded the old fella

He was 53. Old fella????

That’s within 5 years of…me.

Matt, you are obviously one crazy, delusional twit totally divorced from reality.
Matt

AL JAZEERA: Bin Ladenâ€™s Neighbour: â€œNone Of This Is Trueâ€:

http://newsdoom.blogspot.com/2011/05/bin-ladens-neighbour-none-of-this-is.html
jtropp1

79 commandos…AND A DOG!
What happened to that, the cutest detail to come out of the whole raid narrative??
Brainspore

And all i’m asking for is to show us photos or videos of the dead Bastard.

Clearly that’s not all you’re asking for or you wouldn’t have described such evidence as “a good start” a few posts back and you certainly wouldn’t have claimed that OBL has likely been dead since 2003.
Anonymous

Illogic, my friend.

Reality is not “he’s not dead until they release a photo of the corpse.” Reality is “he’s dead now until he personally issues a video statement proving he’s alive” which he without any doubt whatsoever would do in a heartbeat, if he was still alive. Which he is not. Occam and his razor.

@cbuchner1/#72: I have since found some reports regarding such questions. Apparently the people who were left at the compound (a lot of children, it seems) have been handed over to local authorities and if applicable are to be sent back to their home countries.
PlaneShaper

And all i’m asking for is to show us photos or videos of the dead Bastard.

Sure. And all the next person further down the tinfoil slope is asking for to “prove” bin Laden is dead is the printed result of the DNA test, and the next person down is asking for the body on display, and the next person down is asking for plane tickets to the actual compound and personal interviews with family members.

Let me ask *you* a question. If you get your pictures (“all you’re asking for”), will you defend them as the proof any of the people further down the slope than you should accept? Would you tell the others who have yet to believe that their “demands” are out of line and irrational, or an unreasonable use of federal money to ensure?

There are actually people who are not you who see reason and rationale behind *not* releasing pictures that show a man with a gaping head wound into the open environment, and even moreso in this particular circumstance. There are people who can accept as actually rational the explanations for all of the situations you’re “just asking the question” about, such as why a Navy SEAL might shoot someone, why a body would be buried in the sea, and why photos have yet to be released.

(Which, by the way, in your initial post, you had these many questions, but as those got rebuffed by other posters here, you latched onto “all I’m asking is to see pictures”).

Just because someone has decided that they are reasonably satisfied by a level of explanation that doesn’t satisfy you, doesn’t make them “sheeple.”

If you have questions and doubts, that’s fine, and actually just having questions shouldn’t be discouraged in general. But you do make yourself sound like anything less than your particular demands is clearly not enough, and anything more is obviously unnecessary.

I would wager that attitude is why Brainspore brought up Birthers, et al, and more generally why Thorzdad made the comparison to Glenn Beck. These kind of “my position on the scale of information is the only reasonable position” attitudes are their tactics.
Anonymous

of course heÂ´s dead, the administration of the land of the free had to be sure bout that, would of course much too risky.
iÂ´m here with mark, cause iÂ´ve seen the interview with Benazir Bhutto and she was clear without ambiguity:
” …and also omar sheik (Khalid Sheikh Mohammed), the man who murdered osama bin ladin…”
reaction from david frost (the interviewer): zero.
2 months after this interview she was dead.
you canÂ´t ignore that, can you?
Matt

There’s no reason why they couldn’t have captured him and sent off to Gitmo for trial like all the other terrorists there. If he was unarmed why kill him if we shall believe the official story? I’m by no way a Navy Seal but i know that wounding him would’ve been enough if he’s unarmed in case they couldn’t have manhandled that old little guy.

Why revive the news of Osama finally dead? I know the Dollar is falling like a turd, i know ol’ ginger Trump wants some birth certificate, i know Obama’s ratings are dropping. And boom: Osama dead.

And all i’m asking for is to show us photos or videos of the dead Bastard. They showed photos and videos of previous terrorists that were fatally wounded so they could do the world a favor and show us true evidence of OBL killed and dead.

Until then i remain sceptic and especially of the fact that they granted him some religious practices for the burial.

This official story of dumping him into the sea is like the script of a next South Park episode.
Matt

Then let the Administration/ Pentagon prove me wrong and show the photos or videos already! I and many other Americans can take it, believe us! Apparently OBL was responsible in killing thousands of Americans on 9/11 and we also saw many innocent people and children’s heads and limbs blown off by our forces in Afghanistan/ Iraq so we can take it.
travtastic

All the evidence you need for this is the claim itself.

That’s sort of terrifying.
Brainspore

Then let the Administration/ Pentagon prove me wrong and show the photos or videos already!

Here’s my prediction: after a period of time calculated to trigger the least amount of violent outburst from OBL’s followers, the government will release those photos… and you will remain as unconvinced as ever, just as the 2007 video footage didn’t convince you he was still alive.

Let’s check in after a month or two, shall we?

I and many other Americans can take it, believe us!

Oh, I see. You think the reason the administration is hesitant to release graphic photos of a violent extremist’s corpse is because they are worried how you might react. How cute!
Anonymous

the usa hadnt any problem to show the photos of the bodys of the sons of saddam hussein and himself after the execution…
when you are happy to still believe the lies from the goverment,its your decision but not mine, iÂ´m sick of it!
reminds me more and more to the roman empire…
Matt

But that’s exactly what the Obama administration is saying. That apparently it’s too gruesome for the general public.

“Oh, I see. You think the reason the administration is hesitant to release graphic photos of a violent extremist’s corpse is because they are worried how you might react. How cute!”

Oh and i don’t buy into the BS story that OBL’s followers would be more enraged by seeing dead pics of him. And neither do I buy into the BS that they dumped him into the sea (which is about 1000 miles away) because of granting him religious burial practices or some other reasons people have stated. I don’t think a person like Osama should be granted anything. They could’ve easily just wounded the old fella or he could’ve been manhandled by all those strong Navy Seals since now they say he wasn’t armed. If we can trust this official story then he got away way too easy.

Anyway, show us the pics/ videos finally. And pics or videos that show him and his face (and apparently they do have clear pictures) would be a great start along with the DNA test which they oh so were able to do right away too.
facetedjewel

‘Sure. And all the next person further down the tinfoil slope is asking for to “prove” bin Laden is dead is the printed result of the DNA test, and the next person down is asking for the body on display, and the next person down is asking for plane tickets to the actual compound and personal interviews with family members.’

Your argument here too is based on a ‘slippery slope’ fallacy, with nothing to back it up. Asking for concrete evidence of bin Laden’s death does not make Matt a conspiracy nut.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html
teapot

Matt – I can’t believe the “sheeple” “hipster” BB readers are feeding the troll (you) so kindly. In case you don’t get it yet, your clenched-sphincter rant is convincing no one. We don’t care about your doubts when they are so clearly based in nonsense. We especially don’t care about what you have to say when your accompany your BS with undue insults towards people here who are contributing far more than you, with your unoriginal commentary and perspective (not to mention caps).

Let me clear up all the things you still seem to be missing, despite careful explanations from others:

i don’t buy into the BS story that OBL’s followers would be more enraged by seeing dead pics of him.

Because. You’re. An. Insufferable. Fool. If you don’t understand that seeing your hero dead may cause desire for revenge against those who killed him then you don’t understand human emotion whatsoever.

neither do I buy into the BS that they dumped him into the sea (which is about 1000 miles away) because of granting him religious burial practices or some other reasons people have stated

They made no claims that the sea burial was for the purpose of “granting religious burial practices”. They just said that his body was dealt with according to Islamic tradition (i.e. washed and prepared in a certain way). The given (and obviously reasonable) reason is that they do not want his grave becoming a memorial or pilgrimage location. A situation which is highly likely, as exemplified by the fact that it already happens as we speak:
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008\01\19\story_19-1-2008_pg4_21
http://www.counterpunch.org/fisk0813.html

since now they say he wasn’t armed
Which was an after-the-fact discovery. When they busted into the room he may not have been obviously armed (i.e. holding a gun), but they had no way of checking if he had a concealed one, or remotely controlled explosives (which is a fair assumption, considering that’s the business his organisation is in).

along with the DNA test which they oh so were able to do right away too
I can’t understand what your problem is here. Provided there is ample source and comparison DNA material (a body is plenty), DNA tests are not a particularly long-winded or complicated procedure.

They showed photos and videos of previous terrorists that were fatally wounded so they could do the world a favor and show us true evidence of OBL killed and dead.
It took nearly 2 months for visual confirmation to turn up that Baitullah Mehsud, leader of the Movement of the Taliban in Pakistan, had been killed. Here you are jumping up and down when OBL only died 2-3 days ago!

The Obama Admin never said they were “too gruesome” (which is a judgement), they merely said the photo(s) are “gruesome” (which is a description).

I am not sure if this quote on the NYT is his original statement or a later one, but John O. Brennan (the official who made the human shield comment) is quoted as saying:
â€œHere is Bin Laden, who has been calling for these attacks, living in this million-dollar-plus compound, living in an area that is far removed from the front, hiding behind women who were put in front of him as a shield,â€

If you take notice of the words he used, Brennan never said anything about OBL using his wife as a human shield. He said OBL was “hiding behind women who were placed in front of him as a shield”. The verb which describes OBL’s actions was “hiding” and the sentence does not make clear who “placed” the women in from of him. It strongly implies that Osama did, but it does not actually say that.

In addition to a lack of denials from Al Qaeda there is also further mounting evidence that he has passed including an alleged will, printed in a Kuwaiti newspaper:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/03/bin-laden-will-wives-children
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=ar&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alanba.com.kw%2FAbsoluteNMNEW%2Ftemplates%2Finternational2010.aspx%3Farticleid%3D192850%26zoneid%3D13

In summary: Your furious and illogical rants don’t deserve such a comprehensive answer and if I wasn’t being paid while answering you, I wouldn’t have wasted my time.
Brainspore

Your argument here too is based on a ‘slippery slope’ fallacy, with nothing to back it up.

Read Matt’s last post. His “all I want is a picture” has already turned into “…and video and that DNA test and different answers to my questions than the ones they and others have already provided.” The slope has slid.

Like I said earlier, “_________ would be a good start” is just another way of saying “nothing will convince me.” Otherwise why not just say “I will be adequately convinced when I see __________”?
PlaneShaper

I genuinely don’t think that Matt is a conspiracy nut. I am trying to point out that there is not a definite line between concrete and situational evidence. I have interpreted Matt as believing the specific things that he is asking for are the Truly reasonable evidences needed to establish proof.

I am trying to point out that his interpretation is not the only one. His interpretation of what satisfies as concrete evidence only functions for him and the people that agree with him. Not recognizing that others have varying thresholds (both lower and higher) is itself a fallacy. My entire argument is trying to point out that just because someone has a threshold of information different from yours does *not* make them either a sheeple or a conspiracy nut. Matt began under the false pretense that those who were already satisfied *must* obviously be sheeple because *he* still had questions.

While I used the term “tinfoil” in my first paragraph, my second paragraph refuted that very use. And my examples were not slippery slope, I actually have already read and heard people seriously requesting each of those things. I am not suggesting that someones else exist scaled along with each of those desires are an inevitability, I am suggesting they actually already exist.
Brainspore

Osama is dead since 2003 most likely…

Then I’d like to learn how he knew (for example) who would be the French President or British Prime Minister in 2007. I suppose you could theorize that all the Bin Laden tapes have been fakes since 2003, but that wouldn’t explain why the same people and organizations have been vouching for their authenticity. Or are you of the belief that Bin Laden has been a fictional character from the beginning?
GlenBlank

I don’t believe a single piece of this fairy tale Osama’s death until a friggin Photo or evidence is shown finally.

Because there’s no way anyone could fake a ‘friggin Photo’, eh?

Does the US government and the Pentagon think we’re idiots????

If they did, would they be wrong?
Ari B.

…annnnd you just lost me at sheeple.

Unclench, dude.
Djhopscotch

“They dumped him into the Sea for what reason? WHAT IS GITMO FOR THEN? By the way dumping him into the sea IS AGAINST ISLAMIC PRACTICES, so the official explanation makes no sense!”

…after giving Ghusl, Hunut, Kafan and Namaz-e-Mayyit it should be lowered into the sea in a vessel of clay or with a weight tied to its feet. And as far as possible it should not be lowered at a point where it is eaten up immediately by the sea predators.

http://www.al-islam.org/laws/burial.html
Anonymous

Matt,

You don’t have to search long on the “Mainstream Internet” to find that while unfavorable, burial at sea is not totally against Islamic practices. If one of your main goals is to win over a people and not just ace mofos you have beef with, you try to minimize offenses to their culture. You might even incite less reprisal than otherwise if you don’t publish the post mortem photo of the guy you took out with a bullet to the head. I mean, a rifle round to the head while in the same room? I’m guessing the DNA testing wasn’t just done to make the records look good. Is there much face left to ID?

If you can trust the mainstream wikipedia editors:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial_at_sea#Islam

As for not shooting Saddam, IIRC, Saddam wasn’t holed up in an armed defended compound necessitating some elite SPECOP but buried in a hidey hole under minimal guard. Plus there was a nation of brutalized Iraqis that might’ve found more reasons to like the US if Saddam got his official execution and they were involved. Political gaming of the results explain much of the actions taken.
nehoccramcire

Teapot, (I can’t be the first to ever say this, can I?):

You’re calling the kettle black!
Anonymous

I respect your patience Sir! Matt lost me at “MSM”.
Anonymous

“All the evidence you need for this is the claim itself.” -anon
“That’s sort of terrifying.” – travtastic

That only applies to this specific type of claim, of course. Think about what it would take to refute it conclusively. All a free Osama would have to do is go about his regular business, taking the next year and a half to think of the best way to dismantle Obama’s presidency. He’s fully incentivised to do just that. In other words, this claim, if false, rests on the complicity of the enemy. Most claims (if false) rest on the complicity of the co-conspirators, so they do require substantial evidence.

A year from now, whoever’s left demanding evidence will simply be told: “OK, then – where is he?”
Of course if he has shown up by then, get ready for a nice paranoid president to replace Obama in 2012.

So its a (very) special case. Nothing to be terrified about.
Matt

What a load of BS. You don’t actually believe this yourself and that Osama (“Nr.1 enemy of the world since Hitler”) is granted religious practices for his burial??

LMFAO

No wonder all these crooks can get away with all this BS in this world.
teapot

… please indicate where I am doing this? (and, No.)

I’d estimate that you’re probably number 8 or 9 to do so on BB, which is an indication that my detractors’ usually end up resorting to jokes about my handle () because they quickly run out ways to disprove the points I have made.

You chiming in at the end with a pronouncement that Matt is injecting ‘reality’ into a discussion does nothing to prove your (or his) point of view. It’s just self-righteous and non-constructive. I have gone through and addressed every single point in all of Matt’s rambling comments.. How about you try and do that for my comment instead of thinking you’re funny by putting up an unoriginal, tired one-liner?
facetedjewel

I think you and Brainspore and Matt have all gone off on tangents; I like Matt’s tangent better.

Me and Matt (if I may , Matt) want evidence of bin Laden’s death, and we’re not alone. I want the evidence for me, cuz that’s how I roll. I wanted his body in a plain pine coffin, propped up against the front of the general store, with buffalo nickles over his eyes. Alas, it is not to be.

Furthermore,I want photographic evidence for every dead soldier who died in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. For the damaged soldiers who made it back alive and for every lucky healthy one who has survived so far. For the collective peoples of those countries who have spent the last decade paying an awful price for our greed and revenge (speaking of ‘blowback’…). For every person of Muslim faith or hailing from a Middle Eastern country and living now in the U.S., who was made to feel some measure of responsibility for the acts of an organization they had nothing to do with, whose beliefs and extremist politics they didn’t share, but they were hated just the same.

There is ‘closure’ to be found for millions of people in those pictures or videotapes of one dead man. I think it’s worth the alleged risks to give them that closure.
Brainspore

Let’s all put back our heads into the sand and ask no questions and demand no real evidence.

I’m interested to know what evidence would convince you. Clearly photo or video evidence isn’t good enough or you wouldn’t have made the claim that OBL has been dead since 2003. If the CIA or whoever could fake a videotaped speech of a living Bin Laden in 2007 then surely they could fake a few photos of a dead one in 2011.
facetedjewel

I’ll back your position here (not that you need help)…I want to see unaltered photos of bin Laden’s dead body. Until then, he ain’t dead and the circumstances of his burial are…eyebrow raising.
Matt

I think photos and videos showing OBL would be a great start. So where are they? Why does the Obama Administration think it’s too gruesome for us poor schmucks to see a dead Bastard (biggest since Hitler apparently) when we see poor innocent people’s heads and limbs blown off by our troops and “precision weapons” every day.
nehoccramcire

I just can’t slog through 100 comments so carefully, teapot.

Forget Matt; my general, hopefully constructive point is that I don’t trust what I don’t see with my own eyes. I’d like to see evidence before I form my own judgments. And my doubt really kicks in when elements of a news story strain credulity. “Buried at sea”, really?

I watched the twin towers fall, not on TV, but with my own eyes. I never formed any real conspiracy theories about it, and I don’t buy anybody else’s theories about it either. But to this day I hold a healthy skepticism about the official story.

Which leads me to my doubt about the current spectacle. I don’t understand it when people swallow the official story so easily, to the point of ecstasy. I’m more in the camp of the subway riders who, when prompted to shout “USA USA” just give the prompter the finger.

Sorry, I don’t consider addressing every last one of Matt’s complaints or every one of your refutations as a constructive endeavor.
teapot

If they did, would they be wrong?

Not in the case of Matt. He is one of those guys who thinks critical thinking and skepticism revolve around disbelieving the official story on everything.
Brainspore

I think photos and videos showing OBL would be a great start. So where are they?

No dice. “_______ would be a great start…” is code for “nothing will ever convince me. If you present this evidence I’ll just move the goalposts by demanding to see something else.” If you don’t like being lumped with nutty conspiracy theorists then you need to come up with a falsifiable theory.

Either A) name what evidence it would take to convince you that the basic facts of the official story are correct or B) admit that you will never be convinced.
danma

I think it’s pretty clear that they are attempting to avoid blowback from the assassination by not providing opportunities for extremists to rally. If you release bloody photos, it could be used against the US as a rallying point… same with mistreatment of Bin Laden’s body. A burial at sea prevents a grave site where terrorists and sympathizers can flock to and assemble.

I agree, however, with Brainspore and a number of other people here. If the Obama administration has known he’s been dead and just faked it now, WHY would he do it now and not during a more critical point in his term? There’s no election for a while. If, in fact, Osama Bin Laden is still alive and kicking, WHY would he announce it and risk a scandal if Bin Laden surfaced again? Just because the government has the means of faking this whole thing isn’t enough. What’s the motive?

Until some compelling reason exists for the administration to make this up, I don’t think your argument stands.
Anonymous

Photos and videos would be completely pointless made-up easily faked crap. You would really accept this as “evidence”? Same for easily faked DNA test reports.

There’s only two ways something like this can play out. See, once you make the claim that you got Osama, you can’t very well have him turning up at some point later making you look like an ass. Nobody in their right mind would make that claim unless they were fully convinced that they got the real genuine Osama, DNA test and all. Believe me, the people responsible for this didn’t do the DNA test for your benefit or mine – they did it to convince themselves that they got the right guy, and not some look-alike, all so that the real Osama doesn’t show up later making everybody look like a bunch of clowns.

That does leave the possibility that he’s not dead and is being detained. The funeral could have easily been rigged. The people they left at the compound would be a loose end though. Either way, he’s fixed so that he never shows up again with his videos and directives and fatwas and whatnot. Of that you can be sure. All the evidence you need for this is the claim itself. Really. Think about it.
Brainspore

…I don’t trust what I don’t see with my own eyes.

That’s why I remain unconvinced about the existence of viruses, President Obama, and the continent of Asia.
nehoccramcire

Brainspore, that’s reductivist to the point of absurdity.