In other words, then, he’s still for it.

And all i’m asking for is to show us photos or videos of the dead Bastard.

Clearly that’s not all you’re asking for or you wouldn’t have described such evidence as “a good start” a few posts back and you certainly wouldn’t have claimed that OBL has likely been dead since 2003.

Has Obama changed his views on torture? “No.”

Could have fooled me!

Senator Obama: rendering captives to foreign torturers is morally wrong.

President Obama: Morals are for presidential candidates, not sitting presidents! Have you seen my “Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation” coffee mug here?

Y’know, “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, I’ll get fooled again, and again, and again…” (Yeah, that’s what Bush wanted to say…)

Gleen Greenwald’s saying the same thing I am, but with linky goodness:
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/05/03/propaganda_bin_laden/index.html

Reality is not “he’s not dead until they release a photo of the corpse.” Reality is “he’s dead now until he personally issues a video statement proving he’s alive” which he without any doubt whatsoever would do in a heartbeat, if he was still alive. Which he is not. Occam and his razor.

@cbuchner1/#72: I have since found some reports regarding such questions. Apparently the people who were left at the compound (a lot of children, it seems) have been handed over to local authorities and if applicable are to be sent back to their home countries.

While it is nice they got the “most wanted terrorist” in the world, if your removed from the “he did it to me” point of view you find yourself at a loss. I long for the old westerns where bad guys always had black hats and the good guy had a white hat.

The leader of a group was executed, and the assassins released a press release adding facts to make their actions look acceptable beyond acts he took credit for.

A group of people were executed, and the self proclaimed leader of that group released a press release justifying these actions for the formers “attack” on his religion.

When you become what you sought to stop…

Bin Laden used terror to try to change the world, to what he wanted.
US Government uses fear of terror to change the world, to what they want.

This raid more than likely changes nothing, except there will be more people moved to action against the US as payback. And one lone psycho will find something new, and citizens will loose more rights as we move to stop the last attack again.

It plays well in the media, and creates a strong national identity.
It also continues the tit for tat approach that keeps escalating the problems we all face.

He was not the leader of a country, his removal will not spur democracy to sweep his “land” as “his” people rise up and go all well behaved people. I dread where this will lead.

Why should we believe any of this?

All the evidence you need for this is the claim itself.

That’s sort of terrifying.

And all i’m asking for is to show us photos or videos of the dead Bastard.

Sure. And all the next person further down the tinfoil slope is asking for to “prove” bin Laden is dead is the printed result of the DNA test, and the next person down is asking for the body on display, and the next person down is asking for plane tickets to the actual compound and personal interviews with family members.

Let me ask *you* a question. If you get your pictures (“all you’re asking for”), will you defend them as the proof any of the people further down the slope than you should accept? Would you tell the others who have yet to believe that their “demands” are out of line and irrational, or an unreasonable use of federal money to ensure?

There are actually people who are not you who see reason and rationale behind *not* releasing pictures that show a man with a gaping head wound into the open environment, and even moreso in this particular circumstance. There are people who can accept as actually rational the explanations for all of the situations you’re “just asking the question” about, such as why a Navy SEAL might shoot someone, why a body would be buried in the sea, and why photos have yet to be released.

(Which, by the way, in your initial post, you had these many questions, but as those got rebuffed by other posters here, you latched onto “all I’m asking is to see pictures”).

Just because someone has decided that they are reasonably satisfied by a level of explanation that doesn’t satisfy you, doesn’t make them “sheeple.”

If you have questions and doubts, that’s fine, and actually just having questions shouldn’t be discouraged in general. But you do make yourself sound like anything less than your particular demands is clearly not enough, and anything more is obviously unnecessary.

I would wager that attitude is why Brainspore brought up Birthers, et al, and more generally why Thorzdad made the comparison to Glenn Beck. These kind of “my position on the scale of information is the only reasonable position” attitudes are their tactics.

Then let the Administration/ Pentagon prove me wrong and show the photos or videos already!

Here’s my prediction: after a period of time calculated to trigger the least amount of violent outburst from OBL’s followers, the government will release those photos… and you will remain as unconvinced as ever, just as the 2007 video footage didn’t convince you he was still alive.

Let’s check in after a month or two, shall we?

I and many other Americans can take it, believe us!

Oh, I see. You think the reason the administration is hesitant to release graphic photos of a violent extremist’s corpse is because they are worried how you might react. How cute!

Where was the kitteh!

This is my fatuous comment.

I think some of the confusion may be caused by journalists recording ill-informed speculation as fact, or a kind of ‘Chinese whispers’ effect where facts are getting distorted as they get passed on. But the White House doesn’t seem to have its story straight either. I know that this kind of situation is apt to be confusing for all concerned, but could someone really not come up with a twenty-point list of “Things that we know happened, and the order they happened in”?

Why should we believe any of this?

I believe that Bin Laden is dead because even a dishonest administration would likely avoid telling a lie of that magnitude if it could be easily falsified. If Bin Laden released a video tomorrow proving that he was still alive there’s no way in hell anyone involved with the story could survive the political fallout.

All the other details should be taken with the appropriate grain of salt.

Unless the order was to kill, and then the question would be why exactly was that, or maybe they got him alive and faked his death.

Who knows…

“In February, Mr. Panetta called Vice Adm. William H. McRaven, commander of the Pentagon’s Joint Special Operations Command, to C.I.A. headquarters in Langley, Va., to give him details about the compound and to begin planning a military strike.”

OK, say what you will, but a guy named McRaven? That’s badass.

Another irreverent detail; “A staffer went to Costco and came back with a mix of provisions — turkey pita wraps, cold shrimp, potato chips, soda.”

“Dude, they just sent Skippy out for turkey pita wraps – something big is going down…”

“Oh, I see. You think the reason the administration is hesitant to release graphic photos of a violent extremist’s corpse is because they are worried how you might react. How cute!”

Oh and i don’t buy into the BS story that OBL’s followers would be more enraged by seeing dead pics of him. And neither do I buy into the BS that they dumped him into the sea (which is about 1000 miles away) because of granting him religious burial practices or some other reasons people have stated. I don’t think a person like Osama should be granted anything. They could’ve easily just wounded the old fella or he could’ve been manhandled by all those strong Navy Seals since now they say he wasn’t armed. If we can trust this official story then he got away way too easy.

Anyway, show us the pics/ videos finally. And pics or videos that show him and his face (and apparently they do have clear pictures) would be a great start along with the DNA test which they oh so were able to do right away too.

Your argument here too is based on a ‘slippery slope’ fallacy, with nothing to back it up. Asking for concrete evidence of bin Laden’s death does not make Matt a conspiracy nut.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html

According to CNN’s account Two women were shot, one died from her injuries, there was some confusion about which woman was with Bin Laden, etc. This does not sound the whitehouse intentionally misleading the public, it sounds like confusion.

Let me clear up all the things you still seem to be missing, despite careful explanations from others:

i don’t buy into the BS story that OBL’s followers would be more enraged by seeing dead pics of him.

Because. You’re. An. Insufferable. Fool. If you don’t understand that seeing your hero dead may cause desire for revenge against those who killed him then you don’t understand human emotion whatsoever.

neither do I buy into the BS that they dumped him into the sea (which is about 1000 miles away) because of granting him religious burial practices or some other reasons people have stated

They made no claims that the sea burial was for the purpose of “granting religious burial practices”. They just said that his body was dealt with according to Islamic tradition (i.e. washed and prepared in a certain way). The given (and obviously reasonable) reason is that they do not want his grave becoming a memorial or pilgrimage location. A situation which is highly likely, as exemplified by the fact that it already happens as we speak:
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008\01\19\story_19-1-2008_pg4_21
http://www.counterpunch.org/fisk0813.html

since now they say he wasn’t armed
Which was an after-the-fact discovery. When they busted into the room he may not have been obviously armed (i.e. holding a gun), but they had no way of checking if he had a concealed one, or remotely controlled explosives (which is a fair assumption, considering that’s the business his organisation is in).

along with the DNA test which they oh so were able to do right away too
I can’t understand what your problem is here. Provided there is ample source and comparison DNA material (a body is plenty), DNA tests are not a particularly long-winded or complicated procedure.

They showed photos and videos of previous terrorists that were fatally wounded so they could do the world a favor and show us true evidence of OBL killed and dead.
It took nearly 2 months for visual confirmation to turn up that Baitullah Mehsud, leader of the Movement of the Taliban in Pakistan, had been killed. Here you are jumping up and down when OBL only died 2-3 days ago!

The Obama Admin never said they were “too gruesome” (which is a judgement), they merely said the photo(s) are “gruesome” (which is a description).

I am not sure if this quote on the NYT is his original statement or a later one, but John O. Brennan (the official who made the human shield comment) is quoted as saying:
“Here is Bin Laden, who has been calling for these attacks, living in this million-dollar-plus compound, living in an area that is far removed from the front, hiding behind women who were put in front of him as a shield,”

If you take notice of the words he used, Brennan never said anything about OBL using his wife as a human shield. He said OBL was “hiding behind women who were placed in front of him as a shield”. The verb which describes OBL’s actions was “hiding” and the sentence does not make clear who “placed” the women in from of him. It strongly implies that Osama did, but it does not actually say that.

In addition to a lack of denials from Al Qaeda there is also further mounting evidence that he has passed including an alleged will, printed in a Kuwaiti newspaper:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/03/bin-laden-will-wives-children
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=ar&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alanba.com.kw%2FAbsoluteNMNEW%2Ftemplates%2Finternational2010.aspx%3Farticleid%3D192850%26zoneid%3D13

In summary: Your furious and illogical rants don’t deserve such a comprehensive answer and if I wasn’t being paid while answering you, I wouldn’t have wasted my time.

Your argument here too is based on a ‘slippery slope’ fallacy, with nothing to back it up.

Read Matt’s last post. His “all I want is a picture” has already turned into “…and video and that DNA test and different answers to my questions than the ones they and others have already provided.” The slope has slid.

Like I said earlier, “_________ would be a good start” is just another way of saying “nothing will convince me.” Otherwise why not just say “I will be adequately convinced when I see __________”?

I am trying to point out that his interpretation is not the only one. His interpretation of what satisfies as concrete evidence only functions for him and the people that agree with him. Not recognizing that others have varying thresholds (both lower and higher) is itself a fallacy. My entire argument is trying to point out that just because someone has a threshold of information different from yours does *not* make them either a sheeple or a conspiracy nut. Matt began under the false pretense that those who were already satisfied *must* obviously be sheeple because *he* still had questions.

While I used the term “tinfoil” in my first paragraph, my second paragraph refuted that very use. And my examples were not slippery slope, I actually have already read and heard people seriously requesting each of those things. I am not suggesting that someones else exist scaled along with each of those desires are an inevitability, I am suggesting they actually already exist.

Get to work.