re: “…hundreds of millions are homeless and hungry.”

And…. when weren’t there hungry and homeless people?

Life may not be great for everyone, everywhere, but its darn good for a lot.

Find me a more stable and prosperous time when the average man could look forward to a decent life. Or is life just shit then now and forever?

People have predicted the demise of the USA – saying that it’s gone down hill and the founding fathers would be ashamed – since July 5th, 1776.

If you want to be a pessimistic, cynical bastard – go for it.

The fact is we are living in some of the least violent times and around the world we are experiencing wealth, health, and luxury like never before.

It’s another quote from Londo Mollari, thus the blockquote format. He makes it to the humans when they ignore his advice, decide to poke around in Minbari space and end up starting a war. Google is your friend.

And I put my foot in it yet again!

All I can offer in my defense – and it’s a weak-ass defense – is that the Moderator Gray tripped up my very injudicious reading skills and I missed the quote marks. Also, I was awakening to the realization that I had slipped into a habit of pedantic arguments, and thought perhaps you were calling my on it…so add a pinch of guilty conscience. What makes it all still worse is that B5 is one of the few shows I’ve liked well enough to watch the whole thing through, so I really should have recognized the quote with or without noticing the quote marks.

Sorry for being a fool, Antinous. I need to spend more time at the dojo beating the crap out of inanimate objects to vent my worldly frustration.

Peace.

The fact is we are living in some of the least violent times and around the world we are experiencing wealth, health, and luxury like never before.

You know that’s just bullshit, right? China has improved the wealth of its citizens in the last several decades. The rest of the world has gotten poorer, but China is so large that it makes it look like the whole world is improving. Do you know how many refugees from natural disasters and armed conflicts are starving in tents all over the planet right now?

As to the violence part, we’re virtually in the middle of World War III. Do you have any idea how many armed conflicts are in progress? Just the US is directly and publicly involved in armed conflicts in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya with occasional forays in Pakistan. It’s not normal for us (and the rest of NATO, etc.) to be openly involved in three foreign wars simultaneously.

Sorry to piss on your parade….the tolerance for flag-waving jingo crap varies across the globe.

Fascinating.

Do you consider your country worthless?

I realize you were just trolling, and are in fact anything but sorry to piss on our parade, but I’m curious. Do you regard all allegiance to the principles of democracy as banal? What would you advocate instead of democracy? How do you propose to implement it? How would you propose individuals avoid being random?

Americans cling to faux-patriotism now that they’ve abandoned all respect for one another and themselves – all concern, all love.

On this Independence Day, I’m pretty ashamed of my countrymen. I’m pretty sure that if Franklin or Jefferson could see 2012 America, they wouldn’t bother.

Americans cling to faux-patriotism now that they’ve abandoned all respect for one another and themselves – all concern, all love.

You have? Wow, that’s pretty fucked up. Or were you just denigrating the rest of us? Too bad there isn’t some way to let you try living around the turn of the 18th century. I think you’d find so much concern and love that you’d coming running back to the present.

The American flag is a symbol representing a republic based on a constitution enshrining principles, nothing more and nothing less. I cling to those principles because they are the best hope our nation has for the future.

If you have a problem with your countrymen and countrywomen celebrating two centuries of striving to live up to those principles, perhaps you should consider fomenting rebellion. Millions try to make their homeland and the world a better place for their children in spite of human nature and all some among us can do is disparage everyone around them.

America doesn’t have a lock on the concept or implementation of democracy and freedom. If you want to celebrate those ideals, why drag this country into it?

It’s not normal for us (and the rest of NATO, etc.) to be openly involved in three foreign wars simultaneously.

“Only an idiot fights a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts.” – Ambassador Londo Mollari

Having lived through the Great Depression, she said now is NOTHING like the hunger and sacrifice she went through.

The fact that you think that your grandmother’s life is in any way indicative of the lives of most of the people on the planet goes a long way toward explaining why hundreds of millions are homeless and hungry.

America doesn’t have a lock on the concept or implementation of democracy and freedom.

Happily not. They existed long before the United States of America and they will exist long after. The USA is great insofar as it upholds them, and so we must to preserve our liberty. Those that would give up on them do no favors for anyone, least of all themselves.

If you want to celebrate those ideals, why drag this country into it?

America is the country in which I live. If anything, the last ten years our land has been more in need of the reminder of those principles than in a long, long time. If reminding people that July 4th should be about those ideals and not about a flag for its own sake, then I welcome the opportunity to remind them.

Do you not want the country you live in to celebrate the ideals of democracy and freedom?

Don’t hog the troll baton now.

Celebrating good ideals doesn’t mean you have to start fawning to a country, especially if you only do so because it’s the one you live in.

Good thing I don’t “fawn” over my country. It’s a responsibility, not a rose.

Patriotism is a dangerous thing.

No, jingoism is a dangerous thing, as are people who cannot distinguish between them or between the republic, its symbols and its government.

Ah, arrogance and stupidity all in the same package. How efficient of you.

You asked. (hands back troll baton)

Once patriotism creeps in, with its divisive gang-mentality and implied complacent sense of pride, you forget what there is to loathe and fight.

Patriotism is dangerous because it prevents you from seeing or fully acknowledging all the bad parts of your country.

On the contrary. Uncritical approval is insidious. If you never criticize the flaws in something, you do it a grievous disservice. A parent who never admonishes ill prepares their children for life. A teacher who only gives praise is a poor mentor. A citizen who finds no fault in the body politic is no patriot, but an unprincipled sycophant.

For example, I like living in my country but I would not consider myself a patriot because it might hinder me in hating its worst aspects – its monarchy, its right-wing press, its close association with undesirable nations. Overall though, I’m happy to live here because it also has many good points – universal healthcare, good education, liberal population.

Then I assume you endeavor to make your country and better place for you and your neighbors. Sounds like you’re a patriot to me.

Once patriotism creeps in, with its divisive gang-mentality and implied complacent sense of pride, you forget what there is to loathe and fight.

Life is not a zero sum game despite what many politicians and religious leaders would like you to believe. Not only do you not have to choose between affinity for your homeland and humanity, the choice itself is a false dichotomy. In the long run – and usually in the short run – what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Groupthink is not patriotism; it is politics.

I’d argue that it’s an arbitrary distinction though. Surely I can’t be a patriot just for wanting to make my country better? I’d want to make whichever country I lived in better.

Now why not take that time and effort and do something *meaningful* with your lives?

Nationalism/jingoism is shutting down the dissenters by any means necessary. Patriotism is open discussion about morality of issues.

Nationalism/jingosim is about denial of rights to any who are not born into ‘privilege’. Patriotism is about embracing the future and progress that improves the lives of all.

My two cents.

Do you consider your country worthless?

I’m a citizen in 2 countries, Australia and Germany. I don’t consider either worthless, quite the contrary. They are doing quite well in their own ways without the need to re-iterate to themselves that they are the beacon of the free world…..while being quite free and democratically functioning.

Neither would I consider the US worthless….but I cannot see how the blind allegiance of a large part of the population to some dreamy concept of superiority without having ever been anywhere else is helping much.

I realize you were just trolling, and are in fact anything but sorry to piss on our parade, but I’m curious. Do you regard all allegiance to the principles of democracy as banal? What would you advocate instead of democracy?

Fair enough if you accuse me of trolling…I vented some thoughts that aren’t particularly *nice* at a time when people would just like to celebrate. To the people who just would like to celebrate genuine values of freedom and respect as well as remember their history, apologies. To the rampant jingoistic fucktards who prevent America from being what it could be….I hope your barbecue explodes.

The fact that you’re equating my criticism of the US with an attack on democracy sort-of rams the point home better than I could have done, though. Do you actually think that the US is the only *real* democracy in the world?

FWIW, sorry….I hope all the good people had a great Independence Day.

Perhaps we differ on the meaning of “patriotism” here then.

That seems likely.

If it emphatically rejects all forms of sycophancy then I have no quarrel with it.

There are certainly no shortage of people who mistake nationalism for patriotism, or who propagate jingoism under the banner of patriotism. To them your charge would be well leveled. But there are also many citizens here (and I would hazard a guess in other countries) who mean what I mean when I say patriotism. I only meant to rebuff any blanket dismissal of all Americans who celebrate this holiday. Many of us fly the flag because of what it stands for, not because of blind pride.

I as much as (and possibly more than) anyone loath politicians and pundits criticizing each other for not wearing flag pins on the campaign trail. Their efforts to worship a symbol instead of attending to what it stands for are despicable. This particular affront to my republic, however, makes me absolutely livid to a point I have not words to express:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_amendment

The flag is a symbol of the constitution. The idea of destroying the constitution to protect that symbol is nothing less than traitorous.

I’d argue that it’s an arbitrary distinction though.

I think what’s important is that we agree on what’s right, not on what we call it. As long as we’re aware that not everyone uses words the same, we can understand each other.

Surely I can’t be a patriot just for wanting to make my country better? I’d want to make whichever country I lived in better.

As would I. In fact, in a boarder sense I am a human patriot as well. But I cannot vote in your elections. The best way for me to make the world a better place is by striving to make my own republic a better citizen of the world. As I said, my affinity is for the ideals enshrined in the U.S. Constitution, ideals which transcend any one nation.