Comments on: Toronto councillor to Margaret Atwood on library closures: "get elected to office or pipe down" http://boingboing.net/2011/07/27/toronto-councillor-to-margaret-atwood-on-library-closures-get-elected-to-office-or-pipe-down.html Brain candy for Happy Mutants Thu, 23 May 2013 13:54:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: Blackbird http://boingboing.net/2011/07/27/toronto-councillor-to-margaret-atwood-on-library-closures-get-elected-to-office-or-pipe-down.html#comment-1174607 Blackbird Wed, 27 Jul 2011 23:52:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=110940#comment-1174607 King Mob, I won't shout.  We need them for a variety of reasons.  As pointed out above (or somewhere else), they are basically the last public, free, any one is admissible gathering places.  Rich or poor, you can go.  It doesn't really cost you anything.  If they were to close, we lose that.  Some are used as cooling centres for those who do not have air-conditioning as well.  As to a the centralization of the system. We kind of have that system already.  You can reserve books and have them sent to your local branch.  The only difference is that the books are stored cross city, versus in a few central locations.  The problem with this system is that the poor also use the system and might not be able to access a computer at home, which is why they are at the library.  Same thing with digital, with the added cost that the licenses need to be renewed, adding cost to the system.  Public Wifi, though a good idea, is only good for those who have devices, again, singling out the poor who will possibly be without.  Libraries are an even playing field for everyone. Anyone remember the LAST time we got rid of libraries in this world? King Mob, I won’t shout.  We need them for a variety of reasons.  As pointed out above (or somewhere else), they are basically the last public, free, any one is admissible gathering places.  Rich or poor, you can go.  It doesn’t really cost you anything.  If they were to close, we lose that.  Some are used as cooling centres for those who do not have air-conditioning as well.  As to a the centralization of the system. We kind of have that system already.  You can reserve books and have them sent to your local branch.  The only difference is that the books are stored cross city, versus in a few central locations.  The problem with this system is that the poor also use the system and might not be able to access a computer at home, which is why they are at the library.  Same thing with digital, with the added cost that the licenses need to be renewed, adding cost to the system.  Public Wifi, though a good idea, is only good for those who have devices, again, singling out the poor who will possibly be without.  Libraries are an even playing field for everyone.

Anyone remember the LAST time we got rid of libraries in this world?

]]> By: King Mob http://boingboing.net/2011/07/27/toronto-councillor-to-margaret-atwood-on-library-closures-get-elected-to-office-or-pipe-down.html#comment-1174580 King Mob Wed, 27 Jul 2011 23:22:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=110940#comment-1174580 I'm sure I'll be shouted down, but in the digital age, why do we need brick and mortar libraries, in their current form? I LOVE books, and I like the idea of public access to books, but why not have a much more economized sort of library where the books are stored, you reserve them online, and go pick them up. Eventually when everything goes digital, you can close those as well. As for the internet function, spend the public money on municipal wifi. Buy every school age kid a laptop. It just makes more sense than keeping things in place that aren't necessary any longer. I’m sure I’ll be shouted down, but in the digital age, why do we need brick and mortar libraries, in their current form? I LOVE books, and I like the idea of public access to books, but why not have a much more economized sort of library where the books are stored, you reserve them online, and go pick them up. Eventually when everything goes digital, you can close those as well.

As for the internet function, spend the public money on municipal wifi. Buy every school age kid a laptop. It just makes more sense than keeping things in place that aren’t necessary any longer.

]]> By: Blackbird http://boingboing.net/2011/07/27/toronto-councillor-to-margaret-atwood-on-library-closures-get-elected-to-office-or-pipe-down.html#comment-1174578 Blackbird Wed, 27 Jul 2011 23:20:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=110940#comment-1174578 If that's the case, then shouldn't lobbyists have to get elected to have input? As citizens of a city, any time we want we can comment on policy.  We do it when we vote, we do it when we protest, we do it when we write letters.  His comment basically says its meaningless unless you're elected.  It's not.  And he's wrong.  Currently, there are 280 citizens scheduled to depute tomorrow at City Hall.  They won't get through them all tomorrow.  It's 23.3 hours of deputation.  Most of them will be 'single issue campaigners'. If that’s the case, then shouldn’t lobbyists have to get elected to have input? As citizens of a city, any time we want we can comment on policy.  We do it when we vote, we do it when we protest, we do it when we write letters.  His comment basically says its meaningless unless you’re elected.  It’s not.  And he’s wrong.  Currently, there are 280 citizens scheduled to depute tomorrow at City Hall.  They won’t get through them all tomorrow.  It’s 23.3 hours of deputation.  Most of them will be ‘single issue campaigners’.

]]> By: TheMadLibrarian http://boingboing.net/2011/07/27/toronto-councillor-to-margaret-atwood-on-library-closures-get-elected-to-office-or-pipe-down.html#comment-1174558 TheMadLibrarian Wed, 27 Jul 2011 22:47:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=110940#comment-1174558 "Rob and Doug".  Is anyone else having old SNL flashbacks here for Bob and Doug Mackenzie? “Rob and Doug”.  Is anyone else having old SNL flashbacks here for Bob and Doug Mackenzie?

]]> By: Andrew Eisenberg http://boingboing.net/2011/07/27/toronto-councillor-to-margaret-atwood-on-library-closures-get-elected-to-office-or-pipe-down.html#comment-1174503 Andrew Eisenberg Wed, 27 Jul 2011 21:42:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=110940#comment-1174503 I have to admit that RedMonkey makes sense here.  If Doug had said something like: "You elected me to cut government spending.  That is what I am doing by closing this library and saving the city $xxx,xxx/year.  There are 12 other libraries you can go to within walking distance." If he had said that, he would be making many fewer enemies.  I still don't agree with the decision, but had he made that argument, at least I could respectfully disagree with him. I have to admit that RedMonkey makes sense here.  If Doug had said something like: “You elected me to cut government spending.  That is what I am doing by closing this library and saving the city $xxx,xxx/year.  There are 12 other libraries you can go to within walking distance.”

If he had said that, he would be making many fewer enemies.  I still don’t agree with the decision, but had he made that argument, at least I could respectfully disagree with him.

]]> By: onepieceman http://boingboing.net/2011/07/27/toronto-councillor-to-margaret-atwood-on-library-closures-get-elected-to-office-or-pipe-down.html#comment-1174346 onepieceman Wed, 27 Jul 2011 20:03:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=110940#comment-1174346 He's got a point though hasn't he? The difference between a single issue campaigner and a politician is that the latter has to balance interests, whereas the former doesn't have to worry about what has to give in order to fund their pet scheme... He’s got a point though hasn’t he? The difference between a single issue campaigner and a politician is that the latter has to balance interests, whereas the former doesn’t have to worry about what has to give in order to fund their pet scheme…

]]> By: Antinous / Moderator http://boingboing.net/2011/07/27/toronto-councillor-to-margaret-atwood-on-library-closures-get-elected-to-office-or-pipe-down.html#comment-1174318 Antinous / Moderator Wed, 27 Jul 2011 19:41:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=110940#comment-1174318 <blockquote>The councillor said that if Atwood wanted to comment on policy, “she should get herself elected to office or pipe down.</blockquote> Note to self: cancel plan to marry for Canadian citizenship.

The councillor said that if Atwood wanted to comment on policy, “she should get herself elected to office or pipe down.

Note to self: cancel plan to marry for Canadian citizenship.

]]> By: MrWednesday7 http://boingboing.net/2011/07/27/toronto-councillor-to-margaret-atwood-on-library-closures-get-elected-to-office-or-pipe-down.html#comment-1174308 MrWednesday7 Wed, 27 Jul 2011 19:31:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=110940#comment-1174308 And the topic is, librarys. Oh, and dumbass wingnuts. And the topic is, librarys. Oh, and dumbass wingnuts.

]]> By: Guest http://boingboing.net/2011/07/27/toronto-councillor-to-margaret-atwood-on-library-closures-get-elected-to-office-or-pipe-down.html#comment-1174284 Guest Wed, 27 Jul 2011 19:03:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=110940#comment-1174284 So can you, I see. So can you, I see.

]]> By: Khal Mojo http://boingboing.net/2011/07/27/toronto-councillor-to-margaret-atwood-on-library-closures-get-elected-to-office-or-pipe-down.html#comment-1174272 Khal Mojo Wed, 27 Jul 2011 18:53:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=110940#comment-1174272 I guess this guy doesn't understand how a democracy works... I guess this guy doesn’t understand how a democracy works…

]]> By: MatthewFabb http://boingboing.net/2011/07/27/toronto-councillor-to-margaret-atwood-on-library-closures-get-elected-to-office-or-pipe-down.html#comment-1174270 MatthewFabb Wed, 27 Jul 2011 18:52:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=110940#comment-1174270 Ironically the library that Doug Ford wants to close down has a Margaret Atwood poster in it:http://twitpic.com/5wriv0 Ironically the library that Doug Ford wants to close down has a Margaret Atwood poster in it:http://twitpic.com/5wriv0

]]> By: Kibo http://boingboing.net/2011/07/27/toronto-councillor-to-margaret-atwood-on-library-closures-get-elected-to-office-or-pipe-down.html#comment-1174243 Kibo Wed, 27 Jul 2011 18:29:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=110940#comment-1174243 It's not dead.  I'm just omnipresent.  Plus, being annoying on other people's Web sites is easier than actually attempting to put any content less than 15 years old on my Web site.  (Someday I'm going to blow it up and replace it with a picture of a cat.  Or has somebody else already done pictures of cats on the Web?) It’s not dead.  I’m just omnipresent.  Plus, being annoying on other people’s Web sites is easier than actually attempting to put any content less than 15 years old on my Web site.  (Someday I’m going to blow it up and replace it with a picture of a cat.  Or has somebody else already done pictures of cats on the Web?)

]]> By: David Silverberg http://boingboing.net/2011/07/27/toronto-councillor-to-margaret-atwood-on-library-closures-get-elected-to-office-or-pipe-down.html#comment-1174238 David Silverberg Wed, 27 Jul 2011 18:26:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=110940#comment-1174238 Here's a great op-ed about using Toronto libraries, definitely worth a read: http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/309610 Here’s a great op-ed about using Toronto libraries, definitely worth a read:

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/309610

]]> By: Grok http://boingboing.net/2011/07/27/toronto-councillor-to-margaret-atwood-on-library-closures-get-elected-to-office-or-pipe-down.html#comment-1174235 Grok Wed, 27 Jul 2011 18:24:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=110940#comment-1174235 Seems like the mayor isn't above a little "sign language" either! http://www.timescolonist.com/news/Mayor+accused+giving+year+finger/5165552/story.html Class act. Seems like the mayor isn’t above a little “sign language” either!

http://www.timescolonist.com/news/Mayor+accused+giving+year+finger/5165552/story.html

Class act.

]]> By: Mope http://boingboing.net/2011/07/27/toronto-councillor-to-margaret-atwood-on-library-closures-get-elected-to-office-or-pipe-down.html#comment-1174182 Mope Wed, 27 Jul 2011 17:41:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=110940#comment-1174182 Etobicoke North (Ward 2) has approximately 55k people - http://www.toronto.ca/wards200... There are thirteen libraries in all of Etobicoke  but only 3 in Dougie's ward - http://www.thestar.com/news/to... So the ratio is about one library for every 18000 residents in his ward. From the Star article: Toronto has one library for every 28,120 citizens, fewer than Hamilton (one branch per 21,629); Ottawa (27,527); and Vancouver (27,976). But Toronto does better than Mississauga (40,555); Montreal (36,833) and Calgary (61,346).  Etobicoke North (Ward 2) has approximately 55k people – http://www.toronto.ca/wards200…

There are thirteen libraries in all of Etobicoke  but only 3 in Dougie’s ward – http://www.thestar.com/news/to…

So the ratio is about one library for every 18000 residents in his ward.

From the Star article: Toronto has one library for every 28,120 citizens, fewer than Hamilton (one branch per 21,629); Ottawa (27,527); and Vancouver (27,976). But Toronto does
better than Mississauga (40,555); Montreal (36,833) and Calgary (61,346). 

]]> By: MatthewFabb http://boingboing.net/2011/07/27/toronto-councillor-to-margaret-atwood-on-library-closures-get-elected-to-office-or-pipe-down.html#comment-1174175 MatthewFabb Wed, 27 Jul 2011 17:37:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=110940#comment-1174175 RedMonkey, true many are going after the outlandish statements Doug Ford said about not knowing who Margaret Atwood is. However, a lot of people are pissed off at Rob & Doug because they were elected on promises of cutting costs with efficiencies to Toronto city hall and guaranteeing no service cuts. Instead the Fords cut taxes and froze property taxes and to make up for the revenue shortfall is going after services that many people feel they don't need to cut. Without these tax cuts, the city actually had a surplus budget last year and so they can afford these libraries. RedMonkey, true many are going after the outlandish statements Doug Ford said about not knowing who Margaret Atwood is. However, a lot of people are pissed off at Rob & Doug because they were elected on promises of cutting costs with efficiencies to Toronto city hall and guaranteeing no service cuts. Instead the Fords cut taxes and froze property taxes and to make up for the revenue shortfall is going after services that many people feel they don’t need to cut. Without these tax cuts, the city actually had a surplus budget last year and so they can afford these libraries.

]]> By: kringlebertfistyebuns http://boingboing.net/2011/07/27/toronto-councillor-to-margaret-atwood-on-library-closures-get-elected-to-office-or-pipe-down.html#comment-1174176 kringlebertfistyebuns Wed, 27 Jul 2011 17:37:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=110940#comment-1174176 THE Kibo?  Guess Usenet really IS dead, huh? THE Kibo?  Guess Usenet really IS dead, huh?

]]> By: gtronsistem http://boingboing.net/2011/07/27/toronto-councillor-to-margaret-atwood-on-library-closures-get-elected-to-office-or-pipe-down.html#comment-1174174 gtronsistem Wed, 27 Jul 2011 17:35:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=110940#comment-1174174 i's no' abou' profi', i's abou' access to information, i's abou civil socie'y, i's abou' 'istorical impera'ives, i's abou' no' becoming a socie'y of idio's I 'ave long ha'ed A'wood, she's a righ' pompous twa', bu' she's righ' this time i’s no’ abou’ profi’, i’s abou’ access to information, i’s abou civil socie’y, i’s abou’ ‘istorical impera’ives, i’s abou’ no’ becoming a socie’y of idio’s
I ‘ave long ha’ed A’wood, she’s a righ’ pompous twa’, bu’ she’s righ’ this time

]]> By: joe macdonald http://boingboing.net/2011/07/27/toronto-councillor-to-margaret-atwood-on-library-closures-get-elected-to-office-or-pipe-down.html#comment-1174119 joe macdonald Wed, 27 Jul 2011 16:20:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=110940#comment-1174119 RedMonkey: I'm pretty sure his ward has more than 50K people. Etobicoke has over 300,000, the riding of Etobicoke North has over 100,000. RedMonkey: I’m pretty sure his ward has more than 50K people. Etobicoke has over 300,000, the riding of Etobicoke North has over 100,000.

]]> By: Blackbird http://boingboing.net/2011/07/27/toronto-councillor-to-margaret-atwood-on-library-closures-get-elected-to-office-or-pipe-down.html#comment-1174106 Blackbird Wed, 27 Jul 2011 16:04:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=110940#comment-1174106 Exactly.  And if they're serious about it,  I say they've committed fraud. In that, selling off a money making asset only makes matters worse, and doesn't solve ANY of the 'gravy' at City Hall.  In fact, it would mean having to make MORE cuts to balance the books.  Then again...facts have never been his strong suit.  Or voting for ANY grants to pretty much anyone... Exactly.  And if they’re serious about it,  I say they’ve committed fraud. In that, selling off a money making asset only makes matters worse, and doesn’t solve ANY of the ‘gravy’ at City Hall.  In fact, it would mean having to make MORE cuts to balance the books. 
Then again…facts have never been his strong suit.  Or voting for ANY grants to pretty much anyone…

]]> By: RedMonkey http://boingboing.net/2011/07/27/toronto-councillor-to-margaret-atwood-on-library-closures-get-elected-to-office-or-pipe-down.html#comment-1174102 RedMonkey Wed, 27 Jul 2011 16:01:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=110940#comment-1174102 revenue != profit I find it hard to believe a library is a profitable business, but if anyone has stats to show me otherwise I'm interested to see. revenue != profit

I find it hard to believe a library is a profitable business, but if anyone has stats to show me otherwise I’m interested to see.

]]> By: jetfx http://boingboing.net/2011/07/27/toronto-councillor-to-margaret-atwood-on-library-closures-get-elected-to-office-or-pipe-down.html#comment-1174096 jetfx Wed, 27 Jul 2011 15:56:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=110940#comment-1174096 "If it is revenue, why get rid of it, or pare it down?" You have stumbled upon the whole point of privatization. It has nothing to do with raising service quality or efficiency, and everything to do with selling off profitable public services at fire sale prices. “If it is revenue, why get rid of it, or pare it down?”

You have stumbled upon the whole point of privatization. It has nothing to do with raising service quality or efficiency, and everything to do with selling off profitable public services at fire sale prices.

]]> By: Arty_Deco http://boingboing.net/2011/07/27/toronto-councillor-to-margaret-atwood-on-library-closures-get-elected-to-office-or-pipe-down.html#comment-1174078 Arty_Deco Wed, 27 Jul 2011 15:40:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=110940#comment-1174078 Atwood hates that people call her stuff Sci Fi, won't allow it to be shelved in Sci Fi, and gets all stuffy, snobby, and indignant at the suggestion.  She basically hates SF while writing it.  That makes her hard to like, ya know? Atwood hates that people call her stuff Sci Fi, won’t allow it to be shelved in Sci Fi, and gets all stuffy, snobby, and indignant at the suggestion.  She basically hates SF while writing it.  That makes her hard to like, ya know?

]]> By: Sam Blackman http://boingboing.net/2011/07/27/toronto-councillor-to-margaret-atwood-on-library-closures-get-elected-to-office-or-pipe-down.html#comment-1174073 Sam Blackman Wed, 27 Jul 2011 15:33:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=110940#comment-1174073 Wow.  The guy looks like a total asshat (http://www.toronto.ca/councillors/ford1.htm).  And here I thought that we here in the US had a monopoly on ignorant, functionally-illiterate, anti-intellectual, short-sighted, small-minded politicians.  Maybe we exported this one under NAFTA, or maybe he snuck illegally across the border from Texas, or Kentucky. Wow.  The guy looks like a total asshat (http://www.toronto.ca/councillors/ford1.htm).  And here I thought that we here in the US had a monopoly on ignorant, functionally-illiterate, anti-intellectual, short-sighted, small-minded politicians.  Maybe we exported this one under NAFTA, or maybe he snuck illegally across the border from Texas, or Kentucky.

]]> By: Blackbird http://boingboing.net/2011/07/27/toronto-councillor-to-margaret-atwood-on-library-closures-get-elected-to-office-or-pipe-down.html#comment-1174067 Blackbird Wed, 27 Jul 2011 15:30:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=110940#comment-1174067 Doug also said that it 'wouldn't bother' his constituents if that branch closed down.  So a reporter went to the branch.  SPOILER ALERT: they don't want it closed.  http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1031073--constituents-to-ford-lose-our-library-and-lose-our-votes I can't find it now...but yesterday in an article it said the libraries had 1700 staff and $177million in REVENUE.  Did anyone else see that?  I'm confused as to how they would have a revenue that high...unless they're talking about ASSETS.  If it is revenue, why get rid of it, or pare it down?  That being said, they've also floated the idea of privatizing Toronto Parking...which ALSO makes money.  Selling off assets will ONLY help this years PROJECTED shortfall.  FYI - Last years projected shortfall under the Miller administration was $800 million.  In the end, with NO SERVICE CUTS, they ended up with a 'surplus' of $350million.  The year before about about $180million.  The surplus being the difference between projected budget, and what was actually used. Doug also said that it ‘wouldn’t bother’ his constituents if that branch closed down.  So a reporter went to the branch.  SPOILER ALERT: they don’t want it closed.  http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1031073–constituents-to-ford-lose-our-library-and-lose-our-votes

I can’t find it now…but yesterday in an article it said the libraries had 1700 staff and $177million in REVENUE.  Did anyone else see that?  I’m confused as to how they would have a revenue that high…unless they’re talking about ASSETS.  If it is revenue, why get rid of it, or pare it down?  That being said, they’ve also floated the idea of privatizing Toronto Parking…which ALSO makes money.  Selling off assets will ONLY help this years PROJECTED shortfall.  FYI – Last years projected shortfall under the Miller administration was $800 million.  In the end, with NO SERVICE CUTS, they ended up with a ‘surplus’ of $350million.  The year before about about $180million.  The surplus being the difference between projected budget, and what was actually used.

]]> By: Jason Boudreau http://boingboing.net/2011/07/27/toronto-councillor-to-margaret-atwood-on-library-closures-get-elected-to-office-or-pipe-down.html#comment-1174059 Jason Boudreau Wed, 27 Jul 2011 15:21:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=110940#comment-1174059 I agree that sometimes a library may need to be closed.  But why can't politicians just say the facts -- "we have this much money, and there are these many libraries and there are these many people.  These are the choices...  Ms. Atwood, as a constituent, we would be happy to hear another reasonable option if you have one."  Why do the Fords need to get into these ridiculous situations every time?  (I know, I know, it's what got them elected). I agree that sometimes a library may need to be closed.  But why can’t politicians just say the facts — “we have this much money, and there are these many libraries and there are these many people.  These are the choices…  Ms. Atwood, as a constituent, we would be happy to hear another reasonable option if you have one.”  Why do the Fords need to get into these ridiculous situations every time?  (I know, I know, it’s what got them elected).

]]> By: dutchboy99 http://boingboing.net/2011/07/27/toronto-councillor-to-margaret-atwood-on-library-closures-get-elected-to-office-or-pipe-down.html#comment-1174050 dutchboy99 Wed, 27 Jul 2011 15:13:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=110940#comment-1174050 Well she can be annoying. Well she can be annoying.

]]> By: scruss http://boingboing.net/2011/07/27/toronto-councillor-to-margaret-atwood-on-library-closures-get-elected-to-office-or-pipe-down.html#comment-1174045 scruss Wed, 27 Jul 2011 14:59:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=110940#comment-1174045 Northern Elms - the library mentioned - is a lovely little place. Quite busy, too. My wife's been to all 99 libraries in Toronto, and she really liked it: http://c-raine.com/2009/11/08/northern-elms-refuge-for-the-strip-mall-weary/ Northern Elms – the library mentioned – is a lovely little place. Quite busy, too. My wife’s been to all 99 libraries in Toronto, and she really liked it: http://c-raine.com/2009/11/08/northern-elms-refuge-for-the-strip-mall-weary/

]]> By: atimoshenko http://boingboing.net/2011/07/27/toronto-councillor-to-margaret-atwood-on-library-closures-get-elected-to-office-or-pipe-down.html#comment-1174038 atimoshenko Wed, 27 Jul 2011 14:45:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=110940#comment-1174038 Elected representatives are public servants. Thus, a member of the public criticising a public official is simply a boss telling off his or her under performing subordinate. A boss certainly does not need to become a subordinate in order to tell off another subordinate. Anyone who is uncomfortable being subordinate to, and serving at the pleasure of, the general public is free to refrain from running for public office. Elected representatives are public servants. Thus, a member of the public criticising a public official is simply a boss telling off his or her under performing subordinate. A boss certainly does not need to become a subordinate in order to tell off another subordinate.

Anyone who is uncomfortable being subordinate to, and serving at the pleasure of, the general public is free to refrain from running for public office.

]]> By: Francis Mariani http://boingboing.net/2011/07/27/toronto-councillor-to-margaret-atwood-on-library-closures-get-elected-to-office-or-pipe-down.html#comment-1174030 Francis Mariani Wed, 27 Jul 2011 14:23:00 +0000 http://boingboing.net/?p=110940#comment-1174030 Yup, we have two suburban bumpkins ruining this city. No one realized voting for one Ford gets you two stupid idiots. Yup, we have two suburban bumpkins ruining this city. No one realized voting for one Ford gets you two stupid idiots.

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