/ Rob Beschizza / 4:49 am Mon Aug 29, 2011

Women fighters in reasonable armor

In fantasy and SF-themed art and games, females are often given ludicrously revealing "armor" that would see them dead or frozen solid within moments. Women fighters in reasonable armor is a blog dedicated to more practical-minded ladies of war.

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  4. I immediately thought of the cover of Elizabeth Moon’s ‘Deed of Paksenarrion’ omnibus, which shows the protagonist, a female paladin, in full armor up to and including a helmet. It’s not on the blog yet (and I’m not sure what the legalities of them trying to post it there would be), so here’s a link to the Amazon page.
    The cover art for book three individually, Oath of Gold, is good as well.

  5. Well, plenty of artists still haven’t figured out that the purpose of a breastplate is to deflect an enemy’s blows, not accentuate its namesake.

      1. I don’t think that type of armour was *actually* worn by foot soldiers in battle — more for ceremonial parades, or for officers and generals. Battle uniforms v. dress uniforms, etc.

        As long as we’re discussing realism, how about the hair? It seems obvious to either tie it back completely or to chop it off … why give your enemy something to grab onto? Hell, it could just snag on something … it’s a hazard today in many industrial workplaces.

        That said, this world has a documented history of long-haired warriors, so always purely arguing “it’s practical!”, I think, doesn’t take into account cultural quirks.

        1. It’s certainly not the case that all decisions about combat were purely pratical: nothing could illustrate that more than the First World War, but in this case the Roundheads and the Cavaliers come to mind.

          As to the muscle cuirass, the suggestion is that it was worn in combat, typically by officers, on account of its cost. From the link above:

          Polybius omits the muscle cuirass in his description of the types of armor worn by the Roman army, but archaeological finds and artistic depictions suggest that it was worn in combat. The monument of Aemilius Paulus at Delphi shows two Roman infantrymen wearing mail shirts alongside three who wear muscle cuirasses.[13] They were worn mostly by officers, and may have been molded leather as well as metal, with fringed leather (pteryges) at the armholes and lower edge.[14] The muscle cuirass is one of the elements that distinguished a senior officer’s “uniform.”[15]

          Also it was popular amongst the Greek Hoplites: again, not a model of practicality in the modern sense, but the decorum and psychological aspects of war dictated other considerations.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoplite

        2. the only time it actually does seem practical to have such long hair is when we are talking monk fighter who can use it as a whip… but it that case, the girl would not wear armor either, I guess.

  8. ‘Dungeon Siege'(don’t know about its sequels) deserves some credit in this area. There are some ludicrous anatomical issues with their armor(why, certainly, the same suit of plate armor will fit a dwarf, a half-giant, a male or a female equally well…); but everybody wearing armor looks like they are doing it to avoid getting slashed to death.

  10. The point that must be made is that although Herrena the Henna-Haired
    Harridan would look quite stunning after a good bath, a heavy-duty
    manicure, and the pick of the leather racks in Woo Hung Ling’s Oriental
    Exotica and Martial Aids on Heroes Street, she was currently quite sensibly
    dressed in light chain mail, soft boots, and a short sword. All right,
    maybe the boots were leather. But not black.

    Terry Pratchett – The Light Fantastic

  11. why do you oppose helmets?
    anyone should be prepared, that practical women fighters would have the physognomy of lady discus throwers.

  12. I can’t wait for the follow up blog, ‘Female Law Enforcement Representatives in Sensible Shoes’. Olivia from ‘Fringe’ is the only one I can think of.

  15. Just noticed on page 4 that some wiseass convinced whoever put together the blog that a particular weapon being carried was a bearded axe. Heh

  16. One thing I learned in the SCA is that all those fantasy female armor designs with bodacious breast-cups are quite dangerous, as they transfer the force of a blow right into the sternum. If a breastplate needs to make room for such, it should go straight across like a uni-boob sports bra, as many of the designs on this site do.

  17. I just finished Ready Player One this weekend – you can’t tell me that Art3mis wouldn’t be all over that feed like it was a Grail Diary.

  18. I don’t get the unrealistic obsession with kick-ass fighter woman. They could at least draw the girl in the picture so that it looks like she has the upper body strength to effectively wield a heavy sword and shield for any length of time.

    At least the woman fighter character in A Song of Ice and Fire is described as being built like a linebacker to make her fighting skill plausible.

    2. “Have you ever BEEN with a warrior woman?” Wash
      Depending on the martial style of a given culture the “linebacker” physique may not be an issue. The only tactical situation where a bunch of linebackers makes sense is in a shieldwall. Fitness, agility and skill are far more important than raw physical power in many (though not all) martial doctrines.

    3. Is she a girl or a woman? Can’t you make up your mind? lol Looks like a woman to me.

      I do agree with you about giving the characters stronger arms! To hold glaives and halberds! Yes! :D

  20. Wow… No super-inflated breasts with super-loaded nipples?

    This lady must be *really* dangerous.

  21. I remember in one of the old Forgotten Realms comics, someone asked Azure Bonds if her chainmail armor was drafty. She said something like, “No, it’s enchanted.”

    1. Enchantments were like the iPhone apps of the Forgotten Realms.  Armor’s drafty?  There’s an enchantment for that.

  22. I saw this post and was reminded of Aramanthra the Vicious from the barony of Nordskogen, the pioneer of women fighting in the SCA. She referred to her armor as the Iron Maidenform. It was a rigid breastplate with large cups securely riveted over the chest. She’s tall and guys wouldn’t know she was a woman when she was in armor with her shield in front of her body. She’d fight with a shield and sword. In big battles, her trick was to open her shield for a fraction of a second and watch her opponents’ eyes glance down to the big steel cups. That instant of inattention was enough for her to clock them in the head with her rattan sword. 

     @SWPL_Bro – Swords aren’t heavy as people think. The one in the picture would weigh about 1 – 1.5 kg. The women I know that are really successful at fighting Western martial Arts and SCA-style combat aren’t built like linebackers at all. But being built large wouldn’t be a hindrance. It isn’t about strength as much as it is about timing and geometry.

    Many medieval knights who jousted would get broken noses. Why don’t the illustrators show that on their women in armor?

    1. ‘Many medieval knights who jousted would get broken noses. Why don’t the illustrators show that on their women in armor?’

      Because then they couldn’t be seen as a worthy sex object. But, now I’m gonna go make up a bad-ass paladin woman with a crooked nose! And a few missing fingers. And a trained attack honey badger familiar. Thanks for the inspiration. :D

    2. I’m not saying it’s impossible, just that it would be a bit more plausible if her shoulders were slightly broader. I just tried seeing how long I could hold up a 3 .lb dumbbell at about mid-chest level, and I could definitely feel the burn in my deltoid. I would think swordfighting with a similar weight blade on a regular basis would develop that muscle a bit more.

      Also, how much would the shield weigh as well as the chain mail?

      And what are some examples of western martial arts besides fencing? Something like Savate? I’m aware there are many accomplished women fencers, but competition swords never weigh more than 500 g. 

      I’m not denigrating the potential of women in this area; rather the opposite. Depicting female swordfighters in fantasy settings as slender and nubile (even without the chainmail bikini) seems to perpetuate unreasonable standards of beauty to me. That is, artists not depicting them with a more realistic level of muscular development implies that women who do have that are somehow less attractive.

  24. I think this is very appropriate, as we know that men in fantasy illustrations only ever wear very practical and historically accurate armor.

        1. I’m no lady!

          And, not a gyn, but I bet I’d be good at it. :P

          You made me laugh, and I don’t laugh much. Thanks. :)

    1. I love Samus and all (even though she is, as we know, a ‘hot’ blonde woman in a bikini under her armor), but you’d think we’d have more and better recent examples of good female characters.

        1. This is the 21st century… shouldn’t role models for girls reflect that? I mean, she was awesome and all, but then she just goes and marries- no more fighting for her, she’s re-relegated to a subservient position. That ending made me profoundly sad.

          1. Confused… I can’t say “no more fighting” is a bad thing for anyone.

            Since when does getting married = “re-relegated to a subservient position”?

            If this is true – someone tell my wife. Seriously. Just don’t let her know I told you to tell her. In fact, no – let’s just not tell her at all. Oh man – how do I check if the key logger was on?

          2. Did she obliterate her own legal identity so that she could take your last name? Did her father hand her over to you like a sack of turnips?

          3. She took my last name. I didn’t really care. I don’t think everyone views name taking as subservient. She certainly doesn’t act subservient in any other role.  (Ironically, I have a friend who rushed to the Justice of the Peace so that she could take his name and have it be the official one her PhD, MD papers.)

            The other part confuses me. Was I supposed to get turnips out of this deal? There were definitely no turnips.

          4. Don’t you find that fact that women are generally given their father’s surname at birth, then physically handed over to another man at marriage, whose surname they then take, to have more than a little subtext regarding women as property?

            In all honesty, would you have changed your driver’s license, credit cards, etc, effectively obliterating your previous identity, so that you could take your wife’s name?

          5. Man – I didn’t invent the tradition. Were women more subservient in the past than they are now? Yes. Are there still areas where they are treated like chattel? Yes. If you want to keep your name or whatever – go for it. It’s between you and your spouse. Hyphens sorta annoy me (do it or don’t) – but if that is what you want – go for it.

            I didn’t force anyone to take my name. In fact since she has a law degree I gave that as an example of why she might want to keep it.

            I don’t know why I am suddenly an asshole because my wife took my name. One doesn’t have to subscribe to all of  Gloria Steinem’s ideas to feel empowered and independent.

            @boingboing-096f32c997988c54d6d7c09ff0be4d32:disqus That sounds great.

          6. I don’t know why I am suddenly an asshole because my wife took my name.

            I don’t hold you personally responsible for the system, but the system is grounded in the idea of women as property.

          7. I don’t know why I am suddenly an asshole because my wife took my name.

            One of the things I meant to mention (before I realized that it was heading kinda OT for a discussion about armor on fantasy characters, and I bailed) was that it was looking like you were getting unfairly clobbered for the institutional sexism inherent throughout the history of marriage, and that wasn’t right.  It’s been way too long since I saw Mulan to judge how subservient she was at the end of the movie, but in any case there’s more than a little truth to the idea that marriage as an institution has a long and deep history of subservience on the part of the wives, both culturally expected and (often) violently enforced, and this is what leads to the whole male-head-of-household, patriarchal family name thing, and so it’s understandable why many people are sensitive about it.

            That said, I don’t believe you gave any indication whatsoever that you’re ignorant of these truths, nor that your wife took your name because you expected her to do so, or because she felt subservient to you, or felt she was obligated to do so.  You and I don’t always agree, but on this we do: if you’re an asshole, it’s not because of anything you said in this thread.

            Antinous mentioned a few customs typical to American culture: the children taking the father’s name, the daughter being physically handed over to her new husband at the wedding, and then changing her name to match her husband’s.  Though it hasn’t been said, and I should not speak for you, it occurs to me that it’s possible that your circumstances might not be all that Cro-Magnon: like me, you might carry your father’s surname because that’s the name you were given before you were old enough to voice an opinion.  If your wedding contained the aforementioned rituals, there’s a pretty good chance that the dad-to-you handoff was planned and choreographed by your wife-to-be, and not added to the ceremony upon the insistence of you and/or your father-in-law.  And I think you made clear that your wife took your name by choice, not because she felt things would go ill for her if she did not.

          8. Well thanks. I think that a lot of traditions (not just ones pertaining to marriage) are repeated simply because they are traditions. The original meaning may more or less be completely lost.

            Some people like tradition and take comfort in ritual. It is also away to reconnect to your roots. This is why we have a lot of Polish traditions we partake in, especially around Christmas time. My daughter’s first and middle names are very traditional, and both come from our grandmothers. (No Apple or funny spelling of Jennifer.)

            Or someone might be hyper aware as to a traditions roots and prefer not to take part in it. For example, some Christians don’t see Halloween as the most awesome holiday ever and a chance to dress up and partake in something spooky – they see it as a Pagan holiday.

            On topic – I read not one, not two, but three different blogs that dealt with women in fantasy, gaming and comics. While I can’t say I agree about every criticism, most of them were spot on, and the overall point that a lot of how their costumes (and bewbs) are portrayed is ridiculous.

          9. This is neither here nor there, but in the event that my partner and I ever decide to get a marriage certificate – and come up with a good atheist ceremony because I am not going through that ghastly tradition called a wedding – I intend to take the opportunity to change my last name to her surname, as I like it a great deal more. But then I think children should be allowed to choose their own name when they reach the legal age of adulthood. Saddling children with a name they don’t necessarily identify with is pointless biodeterminst barbarism. My name isn’t my identity; it’s the label other people call me by.

          10. I had friends who both had really ugly surnames, so they just picked a completely different surname for their children.

          11. I like Ian M. Banks approach in his Culture novels, where all a person has to do to change their name is announce it. If names were less permanent fixtures, it might go some way toward obliterating the infuriating attitude that body, not mind, confer personhood. But then I tell people I’m a transhumanist and they look at me like I just betrayed the human race.

          12. My wife didn’t change her last name to mine, and her mother didn’t change hers for either of her marriages.  But then, they were from a family of Hollywood communists.  My wife’s middle name is her mother’s surname, and she has the same surname as her father.  Our kids have my surname, but that’s only because we’re not fans of clumsy hyphenates, we used their middle names to honor their maternal great-grandparents, and because we have stronger familial ties to my father’s surname than to my wife’s father’s surname.

            And yeah, it took a fair amount of thought, though little negotiation; we were in accord instantly.  Our kids’ preschool, however, is a microcosm of progressive parenting and naming customs: more hypenates than you could shake two sticks at. (I kind of wish our names lent themselves to the kind of combination that L.A. Mayor Villaraigosa uses: born Antonio Villar, he married Corina Raigosa, and changed his name to Villaraigosa. Which is kinda cool. Of course, then he turned out to be a cheatin’ S.O.B., and they split up. But the name was nifty.)

            Oh.  And I like the armor thing.  Practicality is cool.

  28. Awesome! Now how about men “warriors” in reasonable armor? I never got why games had ridiculous caricatures of anatomy and armor. If the idea is to idealize the human form, wouldn’t it make more sense to attire them in bodies that didn’t look like bad parodies of Greek gods?

      2. Yeah, love that link you provided.

        btw, I’m not sure that the comment immediately below was intended this way, but “Lady Doctor Julia, OBGYN,” or better yet, just, “Doctress Julia, Gynecologist” is out-and-out bad-ass. (I’m not sure where he got the “Lady,” I probably I missed something.)

        But the moniker is especially bad-ass considering that right now, in the US, most gynecologists who are fighting the good fight for reproductive rights: providing honest, helpful eduction for adolescents of every sexuality and gender identity; providing safe sex education and supplies for the same; providing open, non-coercive family planning; and performing voluntary abortions under fire, are the closest thing we have to warriors for truth and justice in this country at this time. 

        I don’t even have the words to articulate the profound respect I feel for these men and women who are braving death, violence, and harassment daily to perform services that a substantial percentage of Americans WANT their children, their neighbors, their friends and themselves to have.

      3. DoctressJulia,

        I wasn’t saying it happened to men. They’re just avatars. Anyone can be any kind of avatar they want. I only meant that I think most avatars in fantasy role-playing games generally look ridiculous, much as most superheroes look ridiculous. I merely meant to suggest that there is probably a market for more realistic avatars of all sorts. I don’t think silly avatars hurt anyone – though the social expectations behind the biomorphism is probably unhealthy in that a disconcerting number of people seem compelled to try conforming to them for the sake of acceptance (though I think it’s the compulsion to fit in that is in fact the unhealthy part) – save perhaps by offending our sense of aesthetics. I certainly intended no offense, and was not attempting a PHMT argument. Of course, I wish Vulcan was real so I could emigrate there, so I’m probably not the most astute observer of my species’ innumerable irrational social intricacies :)

        Either way, thanks for the link. That’s an interesting site.

  29. I see we’re still firmly against helmets.

    The heroes in fantasy epics hardly ever wear helmets. Remember the “Lord of the Rings” movies? The main characters were just about the only ones in the battle sequences who weren’t protecting their noggins during the big battle sequences.

    1. Well on one hand its the hero or heroine so in a movie you can’t cover up the face. Hugo Waeving didn’t get an Oscar for his performance as V for the simple reason you couldn’t see his face. The other argument is that its better to not wear a helmet or just an open face helm because its better to have you vision unobstructed.
      Mind you most times we see an illustration of the protagonist is on the cover and this is essentially a painting, So even if the hero was wearing a full helm the artist would still represent him bare headed even if he wasn’t posing for a portrait and the scene was of a crucial moment in battle.

      1. Hugo Waeving didn’t get an Oscar for his performance as V for the simple reason you couldn’t see his face.

        I don’t know if that’s the only reason. Also, if it weren’t for the mask audiences probably would have noticed that James Purefoy played V for a substantial part of the film. (Weaving later took over the role and dubbed over Purefoy’s lines.)

  31. I have just tried unsuccessfully to find a shot of Morgan Elandris in her battle rig…. sorry.

    She’s at least as tall as I am, so 6’2″ or better, slender, all black armor in leather & steel, frequently used a spear back when we were both young – she’s about half the weight of a typical SCA stick jock but holds her own damn well.  A reasonably good general, excellent leader, and fine horsewoman.

    I always enjoyed fighting her and the Rhydderich
    Hael back in the day…  Aha, here we go!  Page 17 of the Rhydderich
    Hael newsletter at http://www.ice-dragon.info/publication/febID2011.pdf, she’s in parade armor (mail w/plate spaulders, no helm) – not the real deal, but still pretty damn reasonable.

    1. Frank Frazetta’s ghost and I are smugly flipping the bird at this entire eye-rolly enterprise.

      Frank Frazetta the loincloth model?

  34. The chainmail bikini may be passé, but what about a a chainmail maillot , perhaps with a cute little cutout over the navel. Bet she’d look dead sexy in that!

  35. Alice’s mail is probably the only thing I liked about the latest Alice in Wonderland movie. Don’t see that one up there yet.

  36. I wanted to break the chain of being property of father or husband so made my own name.  If I had had daughters, they would have taken my name but I had sons and they took their father’s name.  I am very much for individual rights and choice, yet it still saddens me to see a woman take her spouses name and never have her mother’s name.

  37. And boy am I surprised…it’s still an attractive look. wow. Didn’t see that coming at all.

  38. I’ve always been in the camp favouring women with full armour/ non-Frazetta armour. Sleek assassin women never did much for me, now one that knows how to use a Bat’leth or 2 handed axe… yes please…

  39. I’m just curious as to how a woman that small is going to be able to carry that much chain mail around, unless it’s made of mithril?

  40. My parents are from the Dominican Republic, and the custom there is that children have both the father’s and the mother’s last names; in my case, Antonio Rodriguez Santana. I always found it interesting that even though the culture in the DR is so much more male-driven, as it is in most Latin America, that second surname was given as much importance as the first one. My father’s last name being Rodriguez, which is very common, most people knew him by his mother’s surname as an principal identifier.

    However, my daughter is in somewhat of a quandary with that scheme. My wife (K***) used her first husband’s last name (D***), since she wants nothing to do with her father (last name H***)(long story); when we got married, she changed her name to K*** D***-Rodriguez. My daughter (S***) now gets to choose from S*** Rodriguez D*** (not my preference), S*** Rodriguez H*** (not K*** preference), or S*** Rodriguez J*** (K***’s mother’s maiden name). Confusing, eh?

  41. Well, Antinous, you could always move to Iceland.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_name

    I’m not intending any sort of “love it or leave it” bullshyte, of course, just pointing out Iceland’s relative enlightenment concerning naming conventions.  We’re pretty far offtopic anyway.

    Incidentally, the mail shown on Rob’s warrior babe looks to be about ten gauge; I have a friend (Hi, Ravenwulf! long time no see!) who has been known to wear a 10g hauberk.  It is HEAVY!  Too heavy for most people to carry, much less fight in.

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