Mugshots of Amish who won't put orange triangles on their buggies

Comrade7

Wouldn’t want to run into that lot in a darkened alley!

http://www.plan8.tv Roanhouse

*Wouldn’t want to run into that lot in a recently raised barn at night time!

lknope

Most of them look pretty ashamed of themselves, though. Well, other than the second one from the left on the top row. He’s a true scofflaw.

ernunnos

They’re all scofflaws. Every single one of these guys is Amish because his
ancestors had the stones to say “No” to both the Protestants and the
Catholics in a time when that could get you anything from imprisoned to
burned at the stake. If there’s a gene for being a pain in authority’s ass, they’re the result of a breeding program to select and reinforce it.
- retepslluerb
  
  Well, technically protestants usually have protestant forefathers who fought a string of wars – including a small bout called „The 30 Years War“ some may have heard about – to become and stay protestant and catholics, well they started out as fodder for Roman lions.
  - ernunnos
    
    The wars were largely a matter between princes (often motivated by the desire to ‘liberate’ church property), and the people went along with them because they had to. I’m sure many did fervently believe, but in most cases the decision was made well above their pay grade. Conscripts are conscripted and told who to fight, and for what cause. That’s exactly what the Anabaptists rebelled against. They all made the individual choice to be Anabaptists, always in direct opposition to authority, and at great personal risk. Refusing to fight for the cause – the faith – selected by your prince was treason.
http://www.facebook.com/megania Megan Ishler Anderson

It is against their religion to have their pictures taken, so they are probably pretty pissed, not ashamed. This is Amish mean muggin.

http://www.gyrofrog.com/ Gyrofrog

The scofflaw apparently doesn’t go to the same barber, either. Most of the other guys are sporting a flip.

axoplasm

That “flip” would be “hat hair”
http://pulse.yahoo.com/_WLA4JWVAP5J7Z6ARCHJBHSWKLE Cheryll R

Um, you realize that 60″ = 5′? Most of them are quite short. Napoleon complex, clearly.
http://www.facebook.com/people/Daniel-Gallagher/1327219735 Daniel Gallagher

The scofflaw’s manual, hand-crank hair-drier wasn’t working on the morning that these pictures were taken.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1793208230 T’Rea Moore

That’s hat hair flip

Jordan Pez

Damn, Amish dudes are pretty tall on average. Or at least the rebellious ones are.

bbonyx

Pretty *tall*? I was about to come in and say the exact opposite. Most people I know border around 72″. 74″ myself. Fresh Milk and corn appear to be stunting Ezekiel’s and Mordechai’s growth.
Wesley Henderson

The tallest one is 5′ 9″ or so. They seem kinda short, actually.
zebbart

What? The tallest one doesn’t reach 5’9″ if I’m reading that right. The Amish community I work with only has one guy taller than me, and I’m 6’0″ on a good day.
corydodt

Pretty short, actually. That’s not 6’3″, that’s 63″ (about 5’3″). The US average height for men is 69.5″ (nearly 5’10″), and not a single one reaches that height.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height#Average_height_around_the_world
IronyElemental

Those are inches. The tallest is about 5’8″.
http://pulse.yahoo.com/_HR4ILOZHCDVGCZPQC325EJ4HTA Asdfasdf

Tall nothing. The tallest one is 69 inches. That’s 5 feet 9 inches. What do they feed Amish babies, dirt?
- http://twitter.com/perizade Perizade
  
  That was rather nasty. I am only 5′ tall. The Amish tend to carry short genes. Like my mother. The dirt she fed me had nothing to do with it.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=543140696 Mariel Prue

You’re thinking in the wrong conversion… NOT converting. lol – these are inches. :P These Amish men range, in height, from 5’3″ to about 5’8.” Not considered tall in the least respect. ;)
Mark Phillips

66 inches is 5′ 6″
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=617218108 Derek Cross

its not 6’9″, its 69″ (or 5’9″)
http://twitter.com/daijizai JP

Not really… None of these hooligans are even 6 feet. 5 ft = 60 in. Tallest is almost 69 in. or 5′ 9″. I say almost, because without a full head of hair he doesn’t quite make it.
Farin Loeb

…63-69 inches = 5foot 3 to 5foot 9. Not so tall…?

greenglyph

“…and I’ve been milkin’ and plowin’ so long, that even Ezekiel thinks my mind is gone!”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOfZLb33uCg

MrRocking

Harry Knowles is Amish?

robotnik

Yeah, ain’t it cool?

Cocomaan

Whoever wrote that linked blog post is a douche. Amish people’s “eccentricities” are a religious belief system. I wonder if he ever says out loud that a couple hundred million Americans are eccentric for going to a club meeting on Sundays.

TooGoodToCheck

Eccentric, meaning “deviating from the recognized or customary character,practice, etc.”

So by that definition, mainstream christianity in USA at the present time is not eccentric. It may be a lot of other things, but not eccentric.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=533331922 Andrew C Livingston

I do… At least these folks live their beliefs twenty four hours a day seven days a week, not for an hour on Sundays…
Joe Lansing

OK…If nobody else will, I will: A couple hundred million Americans are eccentric for going to a club meeting on Sundays. I’m kinda a scientific method guy myself.
- anderalert
  
  word
anderalert

I guess I’ve been known to say something to that affect. I didn’t go to the blog link tho.
http://pulse.yahoo.com/_KUBOWT6THG6ZEDSAZJUP66YUUE Deedi

An eccentric religious belief. If a hundred million Americans go to a club meeting on Sunday, chances are they drive a car, pretty normal stuff…. having a mugshot for not putting an orange triangle on your horse drawn buggy (besides being priceless), I would call that eccentric!
http://id.andreparames.com/ AP²

They are. In fact, “eccentricity” is an understatement. “Delusion” is closer.
Varsha Trinidad

This is true, but I have to admit it is well-performed!

TongBei

Loathers shall loathe.

Navin_Johnson

‘Tude.

Editz

First thing that came to mind.

http://twitter.com/ducchau99 duc chau

Orange triangles are vain.

Mark Dow

Big payoff, overconfident.

Dianne Stevens

Sorry, but gotta say that each time I’ve seen this and the comments it engenders I feel a little sick. There’s no other purpose to it other than to point and laugh. Not cool.

ChicagoD

But that is one of the reasons we have mugshots and publish them. Public shaming is all about pointing and laughing.

Now, I will grant that boingboing has this post, but not all of the white business men arrested trying to pick up hookers . . .
- Dianne Stevens
  
  Well, let’s see if we can agree that public shaming is probably a useful tool in certain circumstances. Let’s leave off that list: adherence to one’s own religious tenets and what legal activities adults consent to do with one another for money.
  - Guest
    
    Let’s leave off that list: adherence to one’s own religious tenets and
    what legal activities adults consent to do with one another for money.
    
    Uhhhhh. No. Let’s not do that.
    
    Lets just keep letting discretion be the key to being discrete, and laughing when uppance comes.
    
    FYI – I find the incongruity of their chosen lifestyle to be the funny part here, not their choice of deity. But do keep equating the two if it helps with that moral superiority thing you have going on.
    - Dianne Stevens
      
      Aww dude, really? How is this about getting one’s comeuppance? Are you saying, “How dare those weird cultish people decide when to enforce their own standards of behavior!” ? If it was a question about public safety (and that argument is a sound one) then what’s with the glee over the mug shots?
      
      The incongruity of their chosen lifestyles juxtaposed to the mug shots would totally be appropriate if these were the Amish busted for gang related cocaine trafficking. http://articles.latimes.com/1998/jun/24/news/mn-63191
      But this is not that story.
  - Chessika Zimmerman
    
    Perfect!!!!
  - http://id.andreparames.com/ AP²
    
    What about endangering people’s lives by not fitting your vehicle with a reflective sign, making them harder to see at night? Because that’s why their mugshot was taken, not because they’re Amish.
Mark_Frauenfelder

How sad that you see it that way. To me, it is interesting and not funny. I am interested in seeing humanity in all its forms.

I can send you a blindfold if you wish.
- http://twitter.com/martchand Martain Chandler
  
  Thanks, Mark for your clarity. Yes, I think it’s interesting too. I tend to satisfy my interests by reading about Swartzentruber Amish on wikipedia, though. To each his own, I guess…
- Dianne Stevens
  
  I am also interested in seeing humanity in all its forms. This is not an anthropological case study, however. If this is intended as human interest story, is this really the most interesting thing available about the Amish? A bunch of dudes pulled into the legal system of a society they are attempting to remain outside of, along with implied and real power conflicts? So a bunch of other people can crack wise about haircuts? Sure, it’s interesting. But for this level of forethought, just give me the chickens and the ukulele posts, whydontcha?
  - Mark_Frauenfelder
    
    I find it interesting that the men look similar — the collection of photos is striking. It’s interesting that they won’t put the triangles on their buggies. It’s interesting that they were arrested. These three things were why I was fascinated by the story and why I posted the photo. I’m sorry that it is not enough for you, or that you were offended by it.
    
    But I cannot emphasize the following strongly enough: if you believe the reason I posted this was for “other people can crack wise about haircuts,” you are mistaken.
    - niktemadur
      
      Agreed with you, I find it interesting how there is always and everywhere a segment of the population that regards change, however minuscule and/or for the better, as an invasion of some sacred status quo that must be kept forever.
      Something else I find interesting is how there is always somebody taking offense on behalf of the cosmos, like some sort of Politically Correct Police, in an attempt to keep the proceedings humorless.
      
      What is the essence of humor? A reaction to the unexpected. What is unexpected? That which one is not, or is outside one’s realm of experience.
      Humor is also, to quote John Cleese: ”…well I adhere to the bergsonian idea of laughter as a social sanction against inflexible behavior, but… excuse me a moment… and now for something completely different”.
      
      It’s inevitable, Amish mugshots due to inflexible behavior = humor success in all counts.
    - http://mattdm.org/ Matthew Miller
      
      Amish do not reject change nor regard the status quo as something that must be kept forever. (Quite the opposite, given Anabaptist theology!) They do, however, consider that change is not automatically good, and that new inventions should not be automatically assumed to make life better. If they help build community and faith, they may be accepted, but only carefully. Telephones, for example, are seen as impersonal and prone to increasing gossip, so they are not allowed at home, but can be used for business purposes or for emergencies. Amish farmers use relatively modern farming equipment, sometimes adapted for use with horses.
    - niktemadur
      
      Agreed and understood.
      
      However, surely most Amish had no problem with placing a reflective orange triangle on their vehicles, the raison d’etre for this topic and thread is a few inflexible individuals within that community who failed to implement a safety feature for driving at night.
    - http://mattdm.org/ Matthew Miller
      
      I don’t know the details here, but no, I doubt that it’s individuals making this decision without the benefit of their community.
    - niktemadur
      
      I’d love to have been a fly on the wall at an Amish dinner table tonight, I can easily visualize the elders letting out a sigh of exasperation when the topic of these guys pops up.
      
      Edited for additional comment: This happened in Kentucky, not in Pennsylvania where the community is largest. Maybe there’s a slightly different mindset?
    - Dianne Stevens
      
      Some of your perspective would have gone a long way in the words of the post itself. I would love to have read or had a discussion about the variations of hues in homespun from a single community, as represented in a mugshot grouping of the Amish. Or even a discussion about height or other phenotypes as expressed in a self-limiting community. But the post’s title is “Mugshots of Amish who won’t put orange triangles on their buggies”. Sorry, if you wanted a serious discussion you were led astray by your headline writing impulses.
      
      I’m not offended, I’m not Amish nor Christian nor a theist. I am a person and a citizen and I honestly and sincerely believe that people can live together with respect and flourish by our diversity. Whether you think the men in those photos are ducking from shame or an anachronistic interpretation of the camera lens, one thing is clear: they are held up by this post and by the other dozen I’ve seen today on Twitter and Google+ as objects of ridicule. The only thing that groups them together in this image is their religion and their customs. Now, if this was a group of Amish mugshots where all the individuals had face and neck tattoos, that would be your interest story and would be a fascinating image that could stand on its own.
      
      Maybe there was potential to do something better with this post and who knows, it was a busy morning and it just didn’t get there. That’s ok, It’s a big interwebs. Maybe you’ve inspired someone else to write the homespun/design/phenotype/triangle (but not haircut!) post.
    - Antinous / Moderator
      
      Dianne,
      
      If you want a blog that follows all your rules, start one.
http://twitter.com/wormhog wormhog

I laughed and I agree with you. But I think that anachronisms are somewhat inherently funny without necessarily being deep religious prejudice or hate. I wouldn’t pretend this is a great contribution to anthropology though. Interesting to people interested in all variations of humans? Yes. But the greatest value here is the humor of the photos themselves and yes, when I Googled this story I did feel a little bad for humanity and myself. But it’s almost a nervous humor, the kind that results from exposure to something outside your comfort zone.

That said, I would go a long way to help these people if their right to practice their religion was ever unduly limited by the government. But in this case, we’re talking about what I think seems like a reasonable request for orange triangles. I note that triangles are also generally amusing as is the color orange.

Calvin Heighton

I fully support my bearded brothers in their struggle against THE MAN!

Mark Dow

Me too. I’m thinking of shaving top-side and not wearing an orange triangle on my buggy in solidartity.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=655634392 Miguel Urdinola

I hope they’re not BoingBoing readers! Oh, wait…

Rich Keller

Technically, they got jailed for not paying the fine instead of getting jailed directly for not displaying triangles. Too bad it couldn’t have been commuted to community service.

Chessika Zimmerman

Looking at their communities I think they do enough “community service” already… Maybe other communities need to step up to their level.
- Rich Keller
  
  I was thinking something along the same lines. They have some serious skills that the “English” are lacking. After a short adjustment period, one of the men in the picture would be able to adapt to my environment. I’d be lost in his.
  
  These guys were arrested because they didn’t pay the fines. Why they chose or weren’t able to do that is unknown. Are they heroes of civil disobedience or were they unable to afford the fines? Are they ashamed or are they upset that they’re in the pokey and they have work to do?

David Forbes

Amish men wear shirts with horizontal cut shoulders. Note the drooping cloth near the arms on all these shirts.

I assume that a poorly-fitting shirt brings one closer to God. Why else would they all commit this fashion faux pas?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/stefan_e_jones/ Stefan Jones

These guys only appear short because their faith requires them to stand in a hole during mug shots.

ill lich

All dressed in blue, all with the same hairstyle, this is clearly a gang, the Lancaster County Crips I believe they are called.

social_maladroit

All dressed in blue, all with the same hairstyle, this is clearly a gang, the Lancaster County Crips I believe they are called.

Clip clop, clip clop. Bang! Clip clop, clip clop.(…A drive-by shooting just occurred!)

Brainspore

I can think of another time and place where the government forced certain people to sport colorful triangles. NAZI GERMANY. [/godwin]

Guest

ye slay me
retepslluerb

Yes, what an appropriate comment!You know what? That Nazis always forced certain people to wear numbers. Kinda like forcing people to have license plates.
- Brainspore
  
  You do understand that was intended as a ridiculous, self-mocking, over-the-top comment, right?
Timothy Krause

When the Feds came for the unlicensed automobile owners,
I remained silent;
I was not an automobile owner.

When the Feds came for the helmetless cyclists,
I remained silent;
I was not a cyclist.

When the Feds came for the shoeless pedestrian,
I remained silent;
I was not a pedestrian, besides, only assholes go barefoot, they had it coming.

But when then the Feds came for me, an Amish buggy-driver with righteous hair,
there was no one left to speak out, except for a commenter named Brainspore, follower of Godwin.

mack

Snarkity snark sna-snark. So many clever wisecracks. Tee effin’ hee.

What I see is eight guys principled enough to go to jail over their deeply-held religious beliefs.

Sad that this will likely go to a fairly high appeals court (and ultimately be overturned) on the backs of taxpayers because some overachiever Pennsylvania State Police officers stuck to the letter of a reasonably low-wattage public-safety law.

If we’re balancing the risks this law is designed to mitigate, I’d say it’s far less likely that a motorist will suffer more than a damaged grille from plowing into the back of an under-marked carriage than it is an Amish family – who knowingly accepts this risk – will be horribly injured or killed.

The Amish should be left the hell alone to pursue the “simple” life in an increasingly hostile and alien world. It’s their choice – a principle upon which this country was founded – and their own clearly-accepted risk to take.

My humorless .03.

snagglepuss

Fine. They can be left alone. No problems here with that.

They can also build their own roads and stay off of the ones shared by faster, more dangerous vehicles, whose drivers they expect to alter their driving habits in their favor.
- ROSSINDETROIT
  
  Just like bicyclists, right?
  - http://twitter.com/cjporkchop cjporkchop
    
    Bicyclists have lights/reflectors on their bikes, unless they are suicidal.
  - Morkl
    
    Where i come from, bicycles have to be equipped with rear retroreflectors and, during the night, lights. Kind of like buggies have to be equipped with orange triangles.
    
    No idea if this applies to the big country on the other side of the pond though.
  - snagglepuss
    
    I sport a full array of flashing and steady lighting on my ride when I dare to pedal at night on the streets of my town. I have no delusions about ignoring common-sense safety and thereby expecting some god to protect me from getting splattered by some random stranger who couldn’t be bothered to take my religious beliefs into consideration when he got behind the wheel of a car.
  - http://id.andreparames.com/ AP²
    
    If they refuse to get any kind of light or reflective gear, yes.
- http://pulse.yahoo.com/_7JZFIK3AWY6DKT6EK734UG3I54 Totally
  
  Ummm … they were there first, so, technically, it’s modern society asking them to alter their centuries old habits.
  - snagglepuss
    
    Well then, Totally….TECHNICALLY, modern society shouldn’t presume to prevent cannibals from killing and eating each other, nor intervene when faith healers defraud the gullible with chants and amulets and chicken guts. Because, you know – THEY were there first.
    - AidelMaidel
      
      Look, maybe you have some grudge in regards to Amish/Mennonites/Anabaptists, you seem really hooked up on this.
      
      The crux of the matter is, based on other news reports about this article, is that these individuals a) have a problem with the orange triangle for a multitude of religious reasons, b) they are using other reflective measures, and c) the actual chain of events is: ticketed for failure to use the orange triangle, hearing where they were found guilty and fined, they refused to pay the fines as a matter of principle/religious belief/non-violent protest, and were arrested for failing to pay the fine. They went to jail as a means of protesting what they see as wrong – something I’m pretty sure we are legally allowed to do in the US.
      
      The lawmakers *could* have worked with the community to find a safe compromise that wouldn’t have caused a religious conflict with this community. (I have no clue if they did or not). The law-enforcement *could* have used professional judgement as to whether it was necessary to a) ticket them, b) fine them, c) arrest them. It’s completely illegal to jaywalk in NYC. But you only hear about jaywalking tickets in NYC maybe once every few years when some overzealous new police officer gives one out – and then it hits the media. Most cops won’t ever issue one in their life times – that’s professional judgement.
      
      There are Amish/Mennonite/Anabaptist communities throughout the Eastern US. The government can choose to work with them or they can choose to work against them. But based on my limited knowledge/exposure to these Anabaptist communities, I believe these folks are going to do what they believe religiously over anything else. And they will do so until their non-violent deaths.
      
      We have freedom of religion here in the US. That means you have the right to practice your religion freely and YOU have the right to not practice/believe either as well. But surely we can each learn to compromise for a safe resolution for each.
    - snagglepuss
      
      AidelMaidel – I have no grudge against the Mennonites / Amish / Anabaptists. NONE.
      
      The problem here, is that a few of those guys REFUSED to compromise on a matter of public safety when they ventured out of their perfectly legal, totally-A-OK-with me closed societies.
      
      Or would you prefer a world where any religiously-motivated person can walk out of their enclave and do as they please, insisting that the outside world’s rules do not apply to them ? Bet you’d sing a different song if, say, one of ‘em kidnapped one of your adolescent children to become their mate, claiming that you have no right to prevent them from the constitutionally-guaranteed free expression of their faith.
      
      Could the law have re-written the statute to include a symbol of a color and design that DOES suit those particular Amish ? Sure they could. But until then, should the Amish be allowed to just break any old outsider law that they see as inconvenient ? If they can do it, then why can’t I ? What if I claim that my “faith” frowns on the capitalistic transfer of wealth in exchange for something as “sacred” as music, which therefore entitles me to walk into a Best Buy and help myself to cartloads of free CD’s ? Would you leap to my defense in that matter ?
      
      Tell me, please – EXACTLY how far must the rest of society bend to accommodate those who refuse to bend an inch themselves ?
      
      Repeat: I have no grudge against the Amish. My involvement with this topic is not an indicator of a grudge against the Amish, and is instead an expression of my interest in the way some people will tie themselves into semantic knots to defend the actions of stubborn old farts who wouldn’t DREAM of making a reciprocal similar effort – And then, those people’s insistence on themselves being seen as being more “tolerant” or morally superior to those who simply expect some simple co-operation from BOTH sides of the original issue.
      
      In other words, the real issue here is a clash of cultures, and not those who comment on them.
    - Mark Dow
      
      An inch, exactly.
    - snagglepuss
      
      “An inch, exactly.”Good enough for me.
dculberson

“an Amish family – who knowingly accepts this risk – will be horribly injured or killed.”

How enlightened of you! Does the 3-year-old being carried in the buggy really knowingly accept that risk? Does the wife, who is completely powerless over her husband, truly knowingly accept that risk? Does the motorist that can’t see the buggy in time to stop on a 50mph road knowingly accept the risk of having killed three people, including a toddler, due to a person’s mulish disregard for safety?

I’m sorry, but “principles” end where endangering others begins. If you don’t like the requirement to safely use public roads, then don’t use them. Walk on the grass.
- anderalert
  
  Ah, you said it much better than I did. Should have read further before replying inside his post.
- Dan Payne
  
  Maybe if the auto drivers would slow down, get their heads up, stop texting, stop f-ing with the radio, stop grabbing their girlfriends t-ts, while driving 90 because their too lazy and irresponsible to get up on time for work they wouldn’t have to worry about a bright triangle warning them at the last second. The bright triangles give the lawyers a way out for their negligent clients, and who controls the state…the lawyers. Similarly, hot air balloons are kind of like the buggies of the sky, and it’s the responsibility of the aircraft with the greater agility (ie, fixed wing, rotor craft, etc.) to avoid the aircraft with the lesser. This logic also carries over into maritime navigation…kinda like avoiding manatees ( or the Amish). So man up and take some responsibility…no excuses…slow down in areas where you know there could be an encounter with slower less visible vehicles. Don’t give me any bullshit about reflectors until you genetically engineer deer, livestock, and other animals with integral reflectors build into their arses. Did I mention trees might also get in your way (via acts of God). oh crap I guess will have to make them glow as well! WAKEUP AND QUIT SHRUGGING YOUR RESPONSIBILITIES! The responsibility falls on the those with the greatest ability to avoid the collision! High discharge headlights, navigation systems, on star, collision avoidance systems, and infra-red nights vision, and you bitch about triangles (ie. tax issue), Give me a brake! (pun intended). Welcome to the generation(s) of it’s not my fault I killed those people. Those that give up liberty for security deserve neither. Sheeple make me sick!
  
  BRONDO’S GOT WHAT PLANTS CRAVE!
- Namenomnomnom
  
  I’m with you all except for your silly contention that Amish women are completely powerless over their husbands.
  
  I’m speaking from experience with these people. Experience which includes observing the The Henpecked Husband routine played out between straw hats and bonnets.
travtastic

So what the hell is so principled about causing horrific traffic accidents?
http://twitter.com/ducchau99 duc chau

What I see is eight guys principled enough to go to jail over their deeply-held religious beliefs

What I see are eight guys selfish enough to risk injuring others for the sake of their stupid religion.

Have you ever had to drive on the roads around Amish areas? Have you ever almost lost control of your car because you didn’t see a pitch black buggy at night until it was too late? I have. It sucks.

And their principals only go as far as each sect of Amish let them go. “Oh two straps are vain!” “No buttons are vain!” “Oh you can’t use tractors, Jebadiah!” “You can only use tractors if they don’t have rubber tires, Ezekial!” Jesus! So, orange triangles are the end all be all of their simple, godfearing, principled lives? Your .03 isn’t just humorless. It’s uninformed and vain. Just like those Amish men and their silly refusal to put fucking orange triangles on the back of their fucking buggies.
- mack
  
  So your right to drive the roads obliterates your responsibility to do so carefully? Sorry, that’s moral-equivalent nonsense. I think the reason this post and thread are generating so much heat is there’s a fascinating dilemma here with no easy answers.
- Julie Hobbs
  
  I’m with you on this one. I’m only two generations removed from a related Anabaptist sect and I’m heartily cheering the local authorities for throwing the book at those pompous twits. At no time should religious beliefs be permitted to trump the safety of others. It’s a particularly vile strain of hubris that permits one to value a personal belief system over the health and welfare of others.
anderalert

But..but..but..aren’t they buggying on roads built by all kinds of things modern and stopping at stop signs and following other rules of the road. And…and…if some poor car driver is to happen into the rear of a non-reflective buggier and cause grievous injury then wouldn’t that be something they would have to live with in a terrible kind of way? I can see plenty of contradiction and compromise in the Amish world so maybe, for everyone’s sake, this could be another.
http://id.andreparames.com/ AP²

Can I cut your hand off as long as I cut my whole arm? By your logic as long as I suffer more, I should be allowed to hurt you.
Namenomnomnom

I recently hit a spotted (i.e. very young) faun on the road (near Amish country, as it happened.) 40 pound critter did $2000 damage to my car.

Have you any experience with these buggies? They tend to be painted black. Schlepping along at 15 MPH on a road through a forest at dusk, a buggy is simply not likely to be seen by the driver of a car doing 50 or so. Collisions *will* happen more often without the triangles.

An Amish buggy weighs *many* hundreds of pounds. Not counting payload. Sacks of grain; full metal milk cans, lumber, or hey, maybe just quilts. Except fo the lower portion of the spindly wheels, all of the combined mass of buggy, payload, driver and passengers rides higher than your bumper. Most of it higher than your hood.

So that payload and large sections of the wooden structure are probably coming in through your windshield, an intrusion which neither seat belts nor air bags will protect you against. Some plainly dressed people may enter your car via the windshield too, or just bounce over your roof, perhaps impaled by buggy parts.

But with that you’re just getting started. Maybe in the fraction of a second it took you to kill some Amish and for their buggy to ruin your car and maybe maim or kill you and your front seat passenger you’ve slowed down from 50 to 45, the spead at which you’ll be hitting a horse or two. The horse(s) will be going very much slower, perhaps even stopped. Horses tend to total cars which hit them, not least cars which are already a huge mess from splintering a buggy and maybe killing a couple of Amish kids.

Damaged grill? Your analysis is WAY off.

I live between two Amish communities. I deal with Amish. Respect them and their ways. But use of public roads is a privilege, not a right. No one is picking on the Dutchmen by calling for the triangles. All slow-moving vehicles must display them. Whoever mada an analogy above between Slow Moving Vehicle signs and Nazi arm bands wins the prize for cluelessness.

Refusing to sport the triangle is no nobler than refusing to stop for a red light, or a pedestrian, for that matter. When your religious scruples put my life in danger, perhaps takes my life, you’ve crossed a line. These guys need to be re-arrested every time they turn a wheel on a public road.

If you don’t want to show the triangle, drive cross-lots, or stay home. The notion that one should get to ignore vehicle safety laws for religious reasons is bunk.

By the way, in my area all Amish buggies all display the triangle. Car/buggy collisions are exceedingly rare.
- Modusoperandi
  
  Namenomnomnom “I live between two Amish communities.”
  The Sharks and The Jets?
  
  “…the most beautiful sound I ever heard; Miriam. Miriam, Miriam, Miriam…All the beautiful sounds of the world in a single word; Miriam. Miriam, Miriam, Miriam! Miriam, Miriam…”

snagglepuss

Peter Jackson, look no further – Your Tom Bombadill has been found. Top row, far right.

Teller

You ruined my Hope-they-make-it-back-to-the-shire beat.
- snagglepuss
  
  Sorry. Timing is everything.
planettom

Tom Bombadil: I don’t know what Goldberry sees in that guy!

ej

So many people, so little DNA…..

awjt

Am I seeing this incorrectly, or do many of these fellas have *buttons* on their shirts? No wonder they are not right with the law.

ROSSINDETROIT

4 of these men’s surnames are less than 3 generations removed from my own in Hostetler genealogy.
I’m surprised that nobody has mentioned the famous adversity of the Amish to being photographed. Anybody want to go there?

Halloween_Jack

I’m guessing that the po-po cared as much about their no-photograph rule as they would if I told them that my religion forbade fingerprinting.

Also: which one is Keyser Soze?

Bangorian

Ok boys – where’s your pot of gold?

http://twitter.com/cjporkchop cjporkchop

Romans 13:1-2
“Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no
authority except that which God has established. The authorities that
exist have been established by God.
Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against
what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on
themselves.”

Note that I don’t buy that shit, but shouldn’t they?

The government’s telling them to do something for the safety of themselves, their own families, and others. They can’t put their religious observance above the night-time safety of their car-driving neighbors.

zombienietzsche

Oh man, that quote is terrifying!

Christianity is fucking crazy.
- Donald Petersen
  
  Oh man, that quote is terrifying!
  
  Well, it’s from Romans, after all. And what have the Romans ever done for us??
  - http://www.facebook.com/mishy727 Michelle Emerson
    
    Indoor plumbing, orgys and the Mafia for starters…

mattcornell

First they come for the little girls and their lemonade stands. Next, they come for the Amish buggy drivers.

Namenomnomnom

If only they’d start with the Preposterous Posters.

bcsizemo

I remember hearing something about the Amish believing that a photo will steal your soul. Apparently that’s not exactly the case. But I did come across this:

“Isn’t taking photographs of the Amish against their religion?”
Answer: NO, it’s not against an Amish person’s religion to be
photographed. The Amish religion does, however, prohibit POSING for
photographs.

I guess there is a fine line the police walk when dealing with the Amish, and I guess posing for a mugshot is just one of those things.

Sam Ley

I like how most of them look sad or ashamed, but a few look actively defiant. I’m fine with them standing up for their beliefs.

I wonder if you could make some sort of compromise by hand-crafting reflective orange triangles (out of glass, with a rough rear texture and a mirror back), which they would find acceptable and more fitting on their buggies… Maker opportunity?

dttri

I think, more than the industrial nature of the triangles, it is the color that Amish don’t accept. They prefer to wear and display muted colors: gray, brown, blue.
A white triangle could work, perhaps.

knijon

Why exactly is it that the triangle needs to be orange anyway? I don’t live near Amish country, but in my few encounters I’ve never had trouble spotting their buggies during the daylight hours even without a triangle. At night, a reflective triangle of any muted color will flash blindingly white and serve the purpose, right?

BarBarSeven

No triangle on a buggy, I know, I know, it’s serious.

http://www.facebook.com/mishy727 Michelle Emerson

When asked of the experience, Levi Cohen replied ” First, they take der hatten…then they take der in.”

nick nova

sorry guys i don’t think it’s funny. i really think these guys have got the balls to be different and stay true to themselves. it’s not cool to poke fun just cos they act a bit different and look funny. i think you owe them an apology and put up some mugshots of roman catholic priests bust for molestation.

anderalert

It would be awesome to rake the priests over the coals but this is acceptable hilarity in a much lighter way. I mean, hair and hobbit jokes are not what i’d call hurtful.
snagglepuss

“i really think these guys have got the balls to be different and stay
true to themselves”

The problem, Nick, is that they are NOT being oh-so-ballsily “different” – They are only being different from YOU. They are being INTENSELY conformist and dogmatic to THEIR convictions, and in a way that callously risks injury and death upon those who ARE “different” – From THEM. Their actions do not speak favorably towards mutual understanding or compromise. You are ‘WAY barkin’ up the wrong tree on that one, Chief.

As for “it’s not cool to poke fun just cos they act a bit
different and look funny” – Nope, that’s NOT cool. Although your use of the word “funny” is a bit… contextually suspect. I do not mock the guys in those photos because they’re Amish – I might well mock anybody that intentionally dressed that way, as I would mock somebody who publicly dressed like, oh, say, Lady Gaga.

As for posting photos of priests busted for pedophilia, and mocking and denigrating them – Yeah, I’m ALL for that. Because the hideousness of their acts FAR outweighs the silliness of the clothes they wear, as part of their badge of “moral superiority”.

scruss

Are you sure these aren’t pictures of your favourite Elephant Six band?

http://profiles.google.com/psyghamn Sam Stacklin

Neckbeardapalooza!

agreenster

Dude, the hobbitt on the end’s expression is priceless.

emg72

I’m also pretty sure #1 and #4 have, at various points, carjacked my Doom Buggy.

(grim grinning ghosts come out to socialiiiiize…)

snagglepuss

Plain and simple - How far can a group of “believers” be expected to push their “You WILL accept and accomodate our beliefs and customs, while we shall not budge an inch to accomodate YOURS” attitude onto a larger, more tolerant but equally stubborn social majority …?

Discuss, kids. Cheap shots and low blows WILL be graded.

http://profiles.google.com/marc.k.mielke Marc Mielke

I read an article back that detailed pervasive incest/child molestation within the Amish community which went on for multiple generations due to Amish cultural mores — specifically a cultural expectation that victims forgive the offender, the insular nature of the community, and the usual religious ‘bitches ain’t shit’ view on women.

http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/January-February-2005/feature_labi_janfeb05.msp

http://www.facebook.com/ayla.erdman Ayla Erdmann

they all look like disgruntle goats

snagglepuss

Fuck tha police
Comin straight from the sacred ground
Old School rumspringa got it bad
cuz they not down
With some punk-ass color
so police think
They have the authority to ticket a minority.

Sorry. Couldn’t resist.

Decahedralist

If it’s ok to not display safety taillights on your vehicle because of your “religious rights”, how about it you’re muslim and want sharia law? Sorry – I’m actually extremely pro letting everyone believe and do *exactly* what they want, but laws of the country supercede some religious beliefs; this is one that exists to keep other people safe.

sally599

At what point did this escalate from a traffic ticket to arrest—I think dragging them down to the station is a little much.

http://twitter.com/wormhog wormhog

Too much? No way. It’s hilarious.
Brainspore

At what point did this escalate from a traffic ticket to arrest

After they refused to pay the fines, apparently.

Mark Dow

I personally want them to use some gray reflective tape, but admire them for sticking to principles. It’s not a random coincidence that H. D. Thoreau found himself in jail on account of a similar principle.

“Several years ago, the state ordered me to pay a sum to support a clergyman whose
church I did not attend. I refused to contribute. In a written statement that I gave to the town clerk, I told government officials the following:

Know all men by these presents, that I, Henry Thoreau, do not wish to be regarded
as a member of any society which I have not joined.

…….Since that time, the state has never again asked me to support that church. However,
the state did jail me for one night because I have refused to pay the poll tax for six years. But even though I was behind a thick wall, not one of my townsmen was as free as I was.”

He would not be out of place in this lineup. And he also wouldn’t give a rats ass what you thought about his haircut or life-style.

Modusoperandi

To be fair, nobody crashed their car into the back of a slow moving H. D. Thoreau on an public, unlit country road.

http://twitter.com/perizade Perizade

Seriously, I respect their religious beliefs *within reason.* They are endangering their children in their buggies without reflectors. They are endangering their animals, too. Put on the damn reflectors.

http://www.facebook.com/people/James-Watson-Pollock/577969013 James Watson Pollock

Perhaps height ain’t their critical dimension?

niktemadur

Hipsters, meet your gods! Polytheism in Brooklyn, in Silverlake…

http://alessar.livejournal.com/ Alessar

There were Amish people a few towns over from where I grew up. They always had a safety sign on the back of their buggy, and I do think it was the standard orange triangle. Let me tell you, if you’re not used to horse and buggy on an asphalt road in the farm country, it can be quite a surprise to come upon one. The reflectors are necessary! I’ve never heard someone interpreting the Amish beliefs in this way, namely a specific block against anything with bright orange involved. My understanding was the instruction was about them dressing in humble colors; a small splash of color as mandated by the county on the back of the buggy was not a problem.

http://mattdm.org/ Matthew Miller

Amish also reject central religious authority. For this reason, the rules of the church to which your neighbors belonged could be quite different from those of other Amish churches.

futnuh

I’m all for adults being free to choose a strict religious lifestyle. But the children, that’s another matter. It is grossly unfair to allow kids to be raised in a Luddite cult. At the very least, Amish kids should be in the public school system. We can appreciate the Amish historically, we don’t need to keep them around as curiosities.

http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/42THFKXIPMJHQBIH6OPI4RVIDY Thebes

Welcome to the Land of the Free.
If you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime.
[/sarcasm]

AidelMaidel

Let’s clarify something – one of the reasons they protest the “triangle” is because they see it as a religious symbol of the trinity. They don’t believe in bright colors hence no orange.

My understanding is that they use white reflective tape instead. So really the police here are pushing on a niggling detail.

As an orthodox chassidic Jew, I have to say the greatest thing about living in the United States is freedom of religion. For all those of you who want to flame on those who hold some religious belief, you’re going to laugh at these folks no matter what I say. I’ve come to recognize that as part of the decline of civilization.

http://twitter.com/cjporkchop cjporkchop

If they have a problem with it being a triangle or orange, the proper thing to do is to work to change the law to allow white reflective tape or whatever reflective device they would prefer that still provides adequate night visibility.Safety laws have to be clear-cut, or it becomes a slippery slope of what’s “good enough.” It is not up to them to decide that reflective tape is just as good for visibility as an orange triangle, just as it’s not up to me to decide that duct tape is just as good as a seatbelt.

dayna

Here in Indiana Amish country lately, we’ve had a bunch of Amish men arrested for drunk driving, and one guy was caught with meth in his buggy.

http://twitter.com/bigbadchang Chang Terhune

I’m sorry but which blackmetal band do these guys play in again?

Editz

Heh, you made me think of Wayne Static.

matt ferber

What a dope band photo!

Those Amish guys are soooo cute and ashamed.

Editz

Has it ever occurred to these guys (or any member of an orthodox religion) that their ancient relatives would consider button down shirts too modern looking and flashy? Where do you draw the line here?

snagglepuss

This is just more big government hassling the last remaining decent Americans!

The Amish: The Original Tea Party.

peabo

They see me rollin and they hatin….

Bubba73

So which of those shortasses is Snow White?

Manny

I think this orange-triangle requirement is the textbook example of the kind of restriction of religious liberty that is allowed in the USA. It’s applied to everyone equally and it supports a compelling public interest (safety of shared roads), with the burden on the religion not too great compared to the public need. (There’s a lot of tangled and interesting case law on religious freedom.)

http://bhtooefr.org/ Eric Rucker

Ohio has an exception to the orange triangle law, for Amish sects that refuse to use the orange triangle – they also allow a grey and white triangle. (There are sects that refuse to use any triangle, though.)

http://goodsharer.com/ Aloisius

On another note, is there some religious decree against mustaches or can the Amish only grow neck beards?

http://mattdm.org/ Matthew Miller

Amish traditionally do not wear mustaches because of their (the facial hair; not the Amish) association with military fashion. Particularly, the beard without a mustache is an intentional inversion of wearing a mustache without a beard.

The restriction on buttons has similar roots.

nibor

“Hitler had flare that he made the Jews wear!”

theblacksickle

The Amish are great, if this experiment of modern civilization turn out to be a dismal failure due to…lets just say overdependence on fossil fuels…there will still be human being keeping alive the old ways and ready to pick up the pieces.

Robert Cruickshank

They have a fight, triangle wins.

David Kopelman

I’m pretty sure this is the death-metal band Amigeddon Blood Spike. Dude on the top right plays a 6 string base with wicked crunch.

http://twitter.com/MrMRM513 Mike Marano

Took 4 days to haul in 2 mennonite

zombienietzsche

Faith = belief without evidence.

KanedaJones

if they were making accommodations for visibility at night then they should be left alone. But I do find it interesting that they got in the trouble they have since I have seen a gazillion Amish and Mennonites here in southern Ontario with orange triangles on their buggies. as for the trinity triangle aspect every one I see has the tips cut off so technically they are six sided not triangles lol..

jgirgus

I’m pretty sure these dudes have done more than what they were arrested for.

billstreeter

These are likely Swartzentruber Amish, a very strict Amish sect that believes that displaying anything flashy or reflective on their property, including safety reflectors, is an abomination. There have been several incidents over the years where black Amish carriages without reflectors have been plowed into by cars that can’t see them on dark country roads. These Amish are willing to accept this risk and that whatever happens good or ill is ”Gottes Wille” (Gods Will). There are several Amish sects and not all of them are this strict.

ChicagoD

The thing people are ignoring is that I may not be accepting Gottes Wille when I accidentally plow into a cart, the horse falls on my car, and I am killed. This isn’t that hard. No reflective material = no buggies on roads after dusk. Same rule we’d apply if I refused to have headlights on my car.

billstreeter

Yeah went and read the original source article, it’s all there: Swartzentrubers who believe the safety triangles “amount to complying with a law they believe violates their religious strictures against wearing bright colors or trusting in manmade symbols for their safety.”

Kerouac

You guys are all in deep shit when the Amish wing of Anonymous retaliates for your mockery.

Brainspore

You guys are all in deep shit when the Amish wing of Anonymous retaliates for your mockery.

Anonamish?

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_IH3CQ7VQW6OVWD2OW367WYETXU William

Mr Tumnus!

snagglepuss

“These are likely Swartzentruber Amish, a very strict Amish sect that believes that displaying anything flashy or reflective on their property, including safety reflectors, is an abomination. There have been several incidents over the years where black Amish carriages without reflectors have been plowed into by cars that can’t see them on dark country roads. These Amish are willing to accept this risk and that whatever happens good or ill is ”Gottes Wille” (Gods Will). There are several Amish sects and not all of them are this strict”Well, it would seem that some sort of statistical law concerning birth rate vs mortality (re: suicide) rate might soon be cited as a reason for that particularly obstinate strain of anabaptism withering away in a relatively short period of time.

http://lectiblog.blogspot.com/ lecti

Looks like they even refused decent haircuts. Rebels!

snagglepuss

Can anybody here help me? I heard a phrase many years ago – “Belief may be the foundation of Faith, but Doubt is the foundation of Wisdom” – And for the life of me, I’ve never been able to track down the author.
The internetz draws a complete blank. This particular topic is a good example of it’s perspicacity, and anybody else familiar with the insightful person responsible for it would be thanked and admired.

travtastic

Are you sure that was the exact wording? René Descartes wrote “Doubt is the origin of wisdom.”
- snagglepuss
  
  Could be. I was a kid, and I’ve probably seen it paraphrased more than once.

labrys

I may not “suffer more than a damaged grille from plowing into the back of an under-marked carriage”, but i’d prefer not to kill and maim people while driving because I can’t see them on unlit streets at night.

http://www.facebook.com/sirkowski Sirkowski Sébastien Fréchette

There’s really nothing to be admired about the Amish or any kind of fundamentalist religious cult. It’s willful retardation.

dainel

Click through (twice) to the actual story. They *ARE* using reflective tape, lights, and red reflectors. Just not orange triangles.

Dianne Stevens

welp, guess it’s back over to the other blog where the conversations happen. later mater. have fun with this one.

Mark_Frauenfelder

You’ve been trying to force this discussion into your particular groove all day long. Have fun doing it at the other blog.

Modusoperandi

Which one’s Vin Diesel, as seen in The Fast & The Furious: Pennsylvania Drift?

Rtarara

What jerks. I know a friend of a friend who came up over a hill and rammer straight into one of these buggies. He wasn’t hurt, however a whole family of Amish people were killed. There were young children in the buggy. It wasn’t deemed to be an ‘at fault’ sort of accident, but the guilt ruined the guy’s life. I think he killed himself.

It isn’t just their lives they are toying with. Wear the reflector or get off of public roads. Period.

ETA: forgot the word off in off of

Scratcheee

Funniest email I have ever received:

“Hello. You have received the Amish virus. Since we Amish don’t know much about computers, this virus works on the honor system. Please delete all your important files, then forward this email to everyone you know. Thank you.”

http://www.facebook.com/marcus.hartsfield Marcus Hartsfield

they all look like they might smell bad.

Petzl

Another case of the police victimizing good men for DWA (Driving While Amish).

http://www.kmoser.com kmoser

A photo of one eccentric person is interesting. Posting mug shots of many people with the same eccentricity is practically an invitation to poke fun at the entire class of such eccentric people, especially since mug shots are usually embarrassing, not flattering.

I’m all for making fun of religious fringe groups who try to impose their way of thinking on the rest of the world but I don’t think the Amish are like that; they just want to be left alone to do their own thing.

http://www.facebook.com/RedBoots Juta Stokes

I don’t feel any more need to defend them and their right to religion than I do anyone else and theirs. Believing in imaginary overlords is dumb. Not following basic road safety laws is dumb. I will however, defend their right to bad hair cuts and unattractively styled shirts. And my right to mock them.

Michael Franklin

These most inoffensive of people have drawn ire because they refuse the orange triangles? Because of the outer appearances? Or because of their faith?

We are such a shallow culture and society.

snagglepuss

They have drawn ire because they’re stubborn adherence to their personal religious views PHYSICALLY ENDANGERS OTHERS, INCLUDING THOSE WHO DO NOT SHARE THEIR VIEWS. And they STILL refuse to change their behavior.

Much like Republicans. Or anti-abortion activists, and not just the ones that firebomb clinics.

Christ on a bike. Is it THAT hard to understand ?

http://echofox3.blogspot.com efergus3

I’ld swear I saw these guys in an episode of Sledge Hammer!. “Witless” was the name. Good episode.

http://profiles.google.com/marc.k.mielke Marc Mielke

Almost certainly a parody of a moderately successful film around that time.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090329/

z7q2

I’ve driven thousands of miles in Amish country over the years. You share the road with the buggies like you share the road with the bicyclists. I’ve never had a problem seeing unmarked buggies in the dark there, but then, I drive a sane speed when I am there.

If I may offer an alternate long view to the situation, the animal-drawn carts owned the roads long before motor vehicles, and you are asking them to adapt to the problem of having to share with the now-dominant motor vehicles, some being piloted at night by less-than-careful drivers. I would think most would want reflectors on their equipment out of self-preservation.

PA vehicle code specifies amber markers in front and red markers in the back, I think that’s enough.

http://twitter.com/Alteris_ Christopher Lawence

I think thats what Hobbits look like.

snagglepuss

Hmmm. Are the Amish subject to mandatory vehicular insurance laws ? Are they fined and/or arrested if they refuse to go along with that ?

http://www.facebook.com/people/Beth-Cravens/704440406 Beth Cravens

Maybe they’re afraid that if they give an inch they’ll end up giving the mile. Can’t say that I blame them in that respect. America may be the land of religious freedom, but it is also filled with bureaucratic assholes.

snagglepuss

Your post fails to take into consideration that religion itself may well be the ULTIMATE asshole-filled bureaucracy. Another modern social constraint for which we have organized superstition to thank.

snagglepuss

Well. That certainly settles THAT.

http://www.facebook.com/RedBoots Juta Stokes

Does this mean that the Amish can be called “The Manatees Of The Human World”?

DewiMorgan

Me, I’m with those who feel that you don’t get Rights without Responsibilities: the right to use the road brings responsibility to both obey and display road signage, and all other rules of the road; or to pay the price.

It’s interesting that there are those who choose the “or pay the price” option, and the number of posts here suggests that it’s of interest to a lot of people here, so I don’t think it can be argued that Mark was wrong to post it.

snagglepuss

Yeesh. The condescension in here is so thick you could almost churn it into butter.

Mugshots of Amish who won't put orange triangles on their buggies

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