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	<title>Comments on: New York State Senators want &quot;refined First Amendment,&quot; laws to prevent trolling, flaming and excluding people from online&#160;groups</title>
	<atom:link href="http://boingboing.net/2011/10/05/new-york-state-senators-want-refined-first-amendment-laws-to-prevent-trolling-flaming-and-excluding-people-from-online-groups.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/10/05/new-york-state-senators-want-refined-first-amendment-laws-to-prevent-trolling-flaming-and-excluding-people-from-online-groups.html</link>
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		<title>By: Andrew Eisenberg</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/10/05/new-york-state-senators-want-refined-first-amendment-laws-to-prevent-trolling-flaming-and-excluding-people-from-online-groups.html#comment-1235742</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Eisenberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Oct 2011 16:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=121788#comment-1235742</guid>
		<description>&quot;Sadly, you can&#039;t legislate stupidity, though many keep trying. People will say stupid things on the Internet. the easiest way to counter this is to a) provide intelligent counterpoint to their arguments&quot;

Ha!  That always works for me.  The best way to counter a troll is to engage in calm and civil discourse.  

Seriously though, your second point is spot on:
&quot; b) strengthen the educational system so there are fewer ignorant people&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Sadly, you can&#8217;t legislate stupidity, though many keep trying. People will say stupid things on the Internet. the easiest way to counter this is to a) provide intelligent counterpoint to their arguments&#8221;</p>
<p>Ha!  That always works for me.  The best way to counter a troll is to engage in calm and civil discourse.  </p>
<p>Seriously though, your second point is spot on:<br />
&#8220; b) strengthen the educational system so there are fewer ignorant people&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: caksurda</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/10/05/new-york-state-senators-want-refined-first-amendment-laws-to-prevent-trolling-flaming-and-excluding-people-from-online-groups.html#comment-1235673</link>
		<dc:creator>caksurda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Oct 2011 13:51:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=121788#comment-1235673</guid>
		<description>Could be worse. In North Carolina our Democrat Governor Bev Perdue recently suggested suspending elections for Congress so Congresscritters didn&#039;t fear being denied re-election, and could then pass whatever laws they wanted without fear of retribution. It&#039;s just a little more evidence of a Democracy in decline.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Could be worse. In North Carolina our Democrat Governor Bev Perdue recently suggested suspending elections for Congress so Congresscritters didn&#8217;t fear being denied re-election, and could then pass whatever laws they wanted without fear of retribution. It&#8217;s just a little more evidence of a Democracy in decline.</p>
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		<title>By: Rebecca DeLaTorre</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/10/05/new-york-state-senators-want-refined-first-amendment-laws-to-prevent-trolling-flaming-and-excluding-people-from-online-groups.html#comment-1234966</link>
		<dc:creator>Rebecca DeLaTorre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 20:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=121788#comment-1234966</guid>
		<description>While its true that being flamed can ruin your whole day, I just don&#039;t see any impact it could have that would require legal intervention. A mother cyber-stalking a teen that leads to suicide is clearly harrassment. We don&#039;t need a  law to define cyber-harrassment because its no different from anyother type of harrassment. 
 
Why can&#039;t these senators draft a bill taht prevents companies like extenze (the penis enhancer) or Celtrixa (the stretchmark reducer) from making ridiculous, clearly unsubstanitaed claims on TV every night and leave the troll wars to us. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While its true that being flamed can ruin your whole day, I just don&#8217;t see any impact it could have that would require legal intervention. A mother cyber-stalking a teen that leads to suicide is clearly harrassment. We don&#8217;t need a  law to define cyber-harrassment because its no different from anyother type of harrassment.<br />
 <br />
Why can&#8217;t these senators draft a bill taht prevents companies like extenze (the penis enhancer) or Celtrixa (the stretchmark reducer) from making ridiculous, clearly unsubstanitaed claims on TV every night and leave the troll wars to us. </p>
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		<title>By: asterios9</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/10/05/new-york-state-senators-want-refined-first-amendment-laws-to-prevent-trolling-flaming-and-excluding-people-from-online-groups.html#comment-1234927</link>
		<dc:creator>asterios9</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 19:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=121788#comment-1234927</guid>
		<description>You are on the right track, Pag, but much of what would be considered cyberbullying is indeed opinion based (e.g. assertions that one is &quot;fat&quot;, &quot;ugly&quot;, &quot;a slut&quot;, &quot;a fag&quot;, etc.)  

I think the aspect that can set it apart from everyday speech is the public shaming part, the sense that one can be attacked in front of a (seemingly) infinite audience with no recourse.  For a kid, that seems to be a pretty heavy burden.

The more I think about it the more I suspect that special protections for young people might not be out of the question.  There are all sorts of other ways minors are protected from the adult world.

The real downside would be harrassment-by-criminal-complaint, with vindictive parents turning adolescent disagreements into frivolous criminal cases.

I&#039;m not sure what the best remedy is, but I wish we could have an intelligent conversation about it here instead of an uninformed snarkfest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are on the right track, Pag, but much of what would be considered cyberbullying is indeed opinion based (e.g. assertions that one is &#8220;fat&#8221;, &#8220;ugly&#8221;, &#8220;a slut&#8221;, &#8220;a fag&#8221;, etc.)  </p>
<p>I think the aspect that can set it apart from everyday speech is the public shaming part, the sense that one can be attacked in front of a (seemingly) infinite audience with no recourse.  For a kid, that seems to be a pretty heavy burden.</p>
<p>The more I think about it the more I suspect that special protections for young people might not be out of the question.  There are all sorts of other ways minors are protected from the adult world.</p>
<p>The real downside would be harrassment-by-criminal-complaint, with vindictive parents turning adolescent disagreements into frivolous criminal cases.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure what the best remedy is, but I wish we could have an intelligent conversation about it here instead of an uninformed snarkfest.</p>
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		<title>By: GregS</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/10/05/new-york-state-senators-want-refined-first-amendment-laws-to-prevent-trolling-flaming-and-excluding-people-from-online-groups.html#comment-1234843</link>
		<dc:creator>GregS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 18:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=121788#comment-1234843</guid>
		<description>Instead of  &quot;suspecting&quot; that this is a right-wing plot, why don&#039;t you spend 2 minutes to do some research? State Senators Klein, Savino, Carlucci and Valesky, the authors of this proposal, are all Democrats.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Instead of  &#8221;suspecting&#8221; that this is a right-wing plot, why don&#8217;t you spend 2 minutes to do some research? State Senators Klein, Savino, Carlucci and Valesky, the authors of this proposal, are all Democrats.</p>
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		<title>By: Alexander</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/10/05/new-york-state-senators-want-refined-first-amendment-laws-to-prevent-trolling-flaming-and-excluding-people-from-online-groups.html#comment-1234819</link>
		<dc:creator>Alexander</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 17:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=121788#comment-1234819</guid>
		<description>While I initially chuckled at the &quot;guess the party affiliation game&quot; in play (dems attacking free speech?!?!?), when you look deeper as Asterious has done, exactly, they&#039;re actually onto something here -- stalking and pushing someone over the edge are worthwhile matters to consider. I&quot;m more hesitant with that manslaughter aspect in this climate of &quot;new civility&quot; where we rush out to condemn violent-sounding rhetoric when it&#039;s just some nutjob with a gun. As long as it&#039;s bullying that leads to suicide and doesn&#039;t creep into inflammatory language by person A that caused person B to shoot person C which is a different fish.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I initially chuckled at the &#8220;guess the party affiliation game&#8221; in play (dems attacking free speech?!?!?), when you look deeper as Asterious has done, exactly, they&#8217;re actually onto something here &#8212; stalking and pushing someone over the edge are worthwhile matters to consider. I&#8221;m more hesitant with that manslaughter aspect in this climate of &#8220;new civility&#8221; where we rush out to condemn violent-sounding rhetoric when it&#8217;s just some nutjob with a gun. As long as it&#8217;s bullying that leads to suicide and doesn&#8217;t creep into inflammatory language by person A that caused person B to shoot person C which is a different fish.</p>
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		<title>By: Vadym Zakrevskyy</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/10/05/new-york-state-senators-want-refined-first-amendment-laws-to-prevent-trolling-flaming-and-excluding-people-from-online-groups.html#comment-1234812</link>
		<dc:creator>Vadym Zakrevskyy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 17:51:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=121788#comment-1234812</guid>
		<description>Not the first time I see bigwigs claim constitution is largely outdated and needs &quot;refinement&quot;. The truth is, that it is _inconvenient_ to some power-hungry monsters. If freedom of speech is to become a &quot;privilege&quot;, it soon will be taken away from those who dare to speak up against these powers. Yeah, this one is against online speech... but who speaks off-line any more? Any speech nowadays has to come out online if it is to reach any significant audience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not the first time I see bigwigs claim constitution is largely outdated and needs &#8220;refinement&#8221;. The truth is, that it is _inconvenient_ to some power-hungry monsters. If freedom of speech is to become a &#8220;privilege&#8221;, it soon will be taken away from those who dare to speak up against these powers. Yeah, this one is against online speech&#8230; but who speaks off-line any more? Any speech nowadays has to come out online if it is to reach any significant audience.</p>
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		<title>By: Pag</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/10/05/new-york-state-senators-want-refined-first-amendment-laws-to-prevent-trolling-flaming-and-excluding-people-from-online-groups.html#comment-1234802</link>
		<dc:creator>Pag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 17:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=121788#comment-1234802</guid>
		<description>I think freedom of speech is fundamentally important, but not all speech is equal. For example, few people would argue that corporations should have the right to lie in their advertisement, or that making death threats is perfectly fine. There are different categories of speech and they should be more or less limited depending on their type.

- Opinions: I think opinions should be entirely free and there should be no limits to expressing them. E.g. If you disagree with the government or powerful corporations, you should be free to say so without worry.

- Facts: This one&#039;s tricky because some facts you talk about are true and other false. Talking about true facts should only be limited if there&#039;s a very, very good reason for it (e.g. I don&#039;t think it should be legal to reveal military secrets to enemy nations). Spreading false facts, however, can be illegal where it makes sense (e.g. false advertisements, shouting &quot;Fire!&quot; in a crowded theater, libel). We should err on the side of freedom, but there are cases where discussing facts shouldn&#039;t be allowed.

- Orders: Orders to a subordinate should be limited by law where it makes sense. A mafia boss shouldn&#039;t be able to ask for a the murder of someone while protected under the guise of &quot;free speech&quot;; a CEO shouldn&#039;t be able to ask employees to destroy a protected national park without being punished for it.

- Threats: Unprotected speech. Protecting people&#039;s right to menace others with harm isn&#039;t part of a civilized society.

If we followed something like this, I think what is and isn&#039;t free speech would be much clearer. Cyberbullying would be illegal because it&#039;s a mix of spreading false facts (libel) and making threats. No need to weaken the protection of other types of speech.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think freedom of speech is fundamentally important, but not all speech is equal. For example, few people would argue that corporations should have the right to lie in their advertisement, or that making death threats is perfectly fine. There are different categories of speech and they should be more or less limited depending on their type.</p>
<p>- Opinions: I think opinions should be entirely free and there should be no limits to expressing them. E.g. If you disagree with the government or powerful corporations, you should be free to say so without worry.</p>
<p>- Facts: This one&#8217;s tricky because some facts you talk about are true and other false. Talking about true facts should only be limited if there&#8217;s a very, very good reason for it (e.g. I don&#8217;t think it should be legal to reveal military secrets to enemy nations). Spreading false facts, however, can be illegal where it makes sense (e.g. false advertisements, shouting &#8220;Fire!&#8221; in a crowded theater, libel). We should err on the side of freedom, but there are cases where discussing facts shouldn&#8217;t be allowed.</p>
<p>- Orders: Orders to a subordinate should be limited by law where it makes sense. A mafia boss shouldn&#8217;t be able to ask for a the murder of someone while protected under the guise of &#8220;free speech&#8221;; a CEO shouldn&#8217;t be able to ask employees to destroy a protected national park without being punished for it.</p>
<p>- Threats: Unprotected speech. Protecting people&#8217;s right to menace others with harm isn&#8217;t part of a civilized society.</p>
<p>If we followed something like this, I think what is and isn&#8217;t free speech would be much clearer. Cyberbullying would be illegal because it&#8217;s a mix of spreading false facts (libel) and making threats. No need to weaken the protection of other types of speech.</p>
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		<title>By: Teller</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/10/05/new-york-state-senators-want-refined-first-amendment-laws-to-prevent-trolling-flaming-and-excluding-people-from-online-groups.html#comment-1234798</link>
		<dc:creator>Teller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 17:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=121788#comment-1234798</guid>
		<description>So it would seem, but since it says &quot;peaceably to assemble&quot; the right hinges on the adverb.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So it would seem, but since it says &#8220;peaceably to assemble&#8221; the right hinges on the adverb.</p>
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		<title>By: Daemonworks</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/10/05/new-york-state-senators-want-refined-first-amendment-laws-to-prevent-trolling-flaming-and-excluding-people-from-online-groups.html#comment-1234739</link>
		<dc:creator>Daemonworks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 17:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=121788#comment-1234739</guid>
		<description>I hadn&#039;t heard that people killing bullys was a big deal of late. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hadn&#8217;t heard that people killing bullys was a big deal of late. </p>
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		<title>By: benher</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/10/05/new-york-state-senators-want-refined-first-amendment-laws-to-prevent-trolling-flaming-and-excluding-people-from-online-groups.html#comment-1234736</link>
		<dc:creator>benher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 17:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=121788#comment-1234736</guid>
		<description>Well then, while we still have the original una-fucking-bridged version of that &quot;goddamned piece of paper,&quot; allow me to retort to the Executive, Legislative, and Judicial in unison:

&quot;Fuck You.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well then, while we still have the original una-fucking-bridged version of that &#8220;goddamned piece of paper,&#8221; allow me to retort to the Executive, Legislative, and Judicial in unison:</p>
<p>&#8220;Fuck You.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Guest</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/10/05/new-york-state-senators-want-refined-first-amendment-laws-to-prevent-trolling-flaming-and-excluding-people-from-online-groups.html#comment-1234717</link>
		<dc:creator>Guest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 16:43:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=121788#comment-1234717</guid>
		<description>Hey Cory,

You Have Been Trolled. 
You Have Lost. 
Have A Nice Day.

- Klein, Savino, Carlucci &amp; Valesky 

(seriously, they know there is no way this crap could pass. They are counting on the outrage it will provoke on Teh Internets to get people to think about things...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Cory,</p>
<p>You Have Been Trolled.<br />
You Have Lost.<br />
Have A Nice Day.</p>
<p>- Klein, Savino, Carlucci &amp; Valesky </p>
<p>(seriously, they know there is no way this crap could pass. They are counting on the outrage it will provoke on Teh Internets to get people to think about things&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: Bauart</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/10/05/new-york-state-senators-want-refined-first-amendment-laws-to-prevent-trolling-flaming-and-excluding-people-from-online-groups.html#comment-1234696</link>
		<dc:creator>Bauart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 16:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=121788#comment-1234696</guid>
		<description>Yes BJA thank you, you are correct. I was not trying to say that these politicians were right-wing, but that the right-wing establishment would use this opportunity (or any similar) to highjack the conversation and make changes to the 1st amendment outside of the scope of the original stated purpose.  The language in the 1st amendment separating Church and State is subtle and delicate. Even moving a comma could be dangerous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes BJA thank you, you are correct. I was not trying to say that these politicians were right-wing, but that the right-wing establishment would use this opportunity (or any similar) to highjack the conversation and make changes to the 1st amendment outside of the scope of the original stated purpose.  The language in the 1st amendment separating Church and State is subtle and delicate. Even moving a comma could be dangerous.</p>
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		<title>By: Guest</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/10/05/new-york-state-senators-want-refined-first-amendment-laws-to-prevent-trolling-flaming-and-excluding-people-from-online-groups.html#comment-1234695</link>
		<dc:creator>Guest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 16:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=121788#comment-1234695</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not blind, friend, nor was I taking the bait. How will we get better trolls if we don&#039;t train them to present facetious arguments that are at least rational?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not blind, friend, nor was I taking the bait. How will we get better trolls if we don&#8217;t train them to present facetious arguments that are at least rational?</p>
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		<title>By: Bottle Imp</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/10/05/new-york-state-senators-want-refined-first-amendment-laws-to-prevent-trolling-flaming-and-excluding-people-from-online-groups.html#comment-1234694</link>
		<dc:creator>Bottle Imp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 16:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=121788#comment-1234694</guid>
		<description>The history of the 1st Amendment is filled with change. It&#039;s a small grouping of words, and functionally it changes every time five of nine Supreme Court justices think it&#039;s been interpreted incorrectly. Many of the things we do today were once considered beyond the pale from a free speech perspective.

Also, tweaks are possible. For example, Oregon&#039;s state constitution expands the scope of the 1st Amendment, allowing greater speech than the federal constitution. If you&#039;ve ever visited Oregon and wondered why there are so many strip clubs, it&#039;s because the state court system has interpreted its freedom of speech clause so that zoning cannot be used as a weapon against undesired but legal activities. In other parts of the nation, zoning laws are allowed to do a lot of work restricting what some might consider speech, or at least communicative activities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The history of the 1st Amendment is filled with change. It&#8217;s a small grouping of words, and functionally it changes every time five of nine Supreme Court justices think it&#8217;s been interpreted incorrectly. Many of the things we do today were once considered beyond the pale from a free speech perspective.</p>
<p>Also, tweaks are possible. For example, Oregon&#8217;s state constitution expands the scope of the 1st Amendment, allowing greater speech than the federal constitution. If you&#8217;ve ever visited Oregon and wondered why there are so many strip clubs, it&#8217;s because the state court system has interpreted its freedom of speech clause so that zoning cannot be used as a weapon against undesired but legal activities. In other parts of the nation, zoning laws are allowed to do a lot of work restricting what some might consider speech, or at least communicative activities.</p>
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		<title>By: awjt</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/10/05/new-york-state-senators-want-refined-first-amendment-laws-to-prevent-trolling-flaming-and-excluding-people-from-online-groups.html#comment-1234672</link>
		<dc:creator>awjt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 15:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=121788#comment-1234672</guid>
		<description>The original idea was that within the boundaries of the United States there was one big free speech zone. 

Now, that&#039;s been reduced to a few cordoned off areas about 500 feet away from wherever you happen to be protesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The original idea was that within the boundaries of the United States there was one big free speech zone. </p>
<p>Now, that&#8217;s been reduced to a few cordoned off areas about 500 feet away from wherever you happen to be protesting.</p>
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		<title>By: robjmiller</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/10/05/new-york-state-senators-want-refined-first-amendment-laws-to-prevent-trolling-flaming-and-excluding-people-from-online-groups.html#comment-1234669</link>
		<dc:creator>robjmiller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 15:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=121788#comment-1234669</guid>
		<description>New legislation: all kids must watch The Karate Kid once a month from ages 4-8, much like I did. They will then learn that bullies are, in fact, just some kids that probably have abusive relationships in their lives (other friends, fathers, PTSD Vietnam vet karate coaches) that are making them into mini-psychos and the only response is either ignoring or crane-kicking them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>New legislation: all kids must watch The Karate Kid once a month from ages 4-8, much like I did. They will then learn that bullies are, in fact, just some kids that probably have abusive relationships in their lives (other friends, fathers, PTSD Vietnam vet karate coaches) that are making them into mini-psychos and the only response is either ignoring or crane-kicking them.</p>
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		<title>By: Lobster</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/10/05/new-york-state-senators-want-refined-first-amendment-laws-to-prevent-trolling-flaming-and-excluding-people-from-online-groups.html#comment-1234665</link>
		<dc:creator>Lobster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 15:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=121788#comment-1234665</guid>
		<description>Wow, sounds like someone got banned from his favorite web forum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, sounds like someone got banned from his favorite web forum.</p>
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		<title>By: phisrow</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/10/05/new-york-state-senators-want-refined-first-amendment-laws-to-prevent-trolling-flaming-and-excluding-people-from-online-groups.html#comment-1234666</link>
		<dc:creator>phisrow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 15:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=121788#comment-1234666</guid>
		<description>Luckily, given the human talent for expressing contempt regardless of the tools available(see also: &quot;Euphemism treadmill&quot;), even a legally enforced inclusiveness requirement should be trivially subverted from its ostensible purpose, even as the gross harm it does to the constitution remains.

Some reasonably snappy colloquial usage(maybe &quot;freds&quot; as a shortening of &quot;fed friends&quot;) and you&#039;ll be all set for a Nice Happy Fuzzy Inclusive idea to turn into a vitriolic insult.(Consider the fate of &quot;Special&quot;: Once &quot;Crippled&quot;, &quot;Retarded&quot;, and &quot;Handicapped&quot; had been burned through, &quot;Special needs&quot; came in, and, within a short time, every middle-schooler knew exactly what it meant when you rolled your eyes a touch and described somebody as &quot;special&quot;. )

I, for one, would be happy to add the sponsors of this notion to my freds list.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Luckily, given the human talent for expressing contempt regardless of the tools available(see also: &#8220;Euphemism treadmill&#8221;), even a legally enforced inclusiveness requirement should be trivially subverted from its ostensible purpose, even as the gross harm it does to the constitution remains.</p>
<p>Some reasonably snappy colloquial usage(maybe &#8220;freds&#8221; as a shortening of &#8220;fed friends&#8221;) and you&#8217;ll be all set for a Nice Happy Fuzzy Inclusive idea to turn into a vitriolic insult.(Consider the fate of &#8220;Special&#8221;: Once &#8220;Crippled&#8221;, &#8220;Retarded&#8221;, and &#8220;Handicapped&#8221; had been burned through, &#8220;Special needs&#8221; came in, and, within a short time, every middle-schooler knew exactly what it meant when you rolled your eyes a touch and described somebody as &#8220;special&#8221;. )</p>
<p>I, for one, would be happy to add the sponsors of this notion to my freds list.</p>
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		<title>By: Lobster</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/10/05/new-york-state-senators-want-refined-first-amendment-laws-to-prevent-trolling-flaming-and-excluding-people-from-online-groups.html#comment-1234664</link>
		<dc:creator>Lobster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 15:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=121788#comment-1234664</guid>
		<description>Read his user name.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Read his user name.</p>
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		<title>By: Guest</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/10/05/new-york-state-senators-want-refined-first-amendment-laws-to-prevent-trolling-flaming-and-excluding-people-from-online-groups.html#comment-1234643</link>
		<dc:creator>Guest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 15:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=121788#comment-1234643</guid>
		<description>My gosh, the teabaggers are only partly behind something and they deserve a medal now. NICE.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My gosh, the teabaggers are only partly behind something and they deserve a medal now. NICE.</p>
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		<title>By: asterios9</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/10/05/new-york-state-senators-want-refined-first-amendment-laws-to-prevent-trolling-flaming-and-excluding-people-from-online-groups.html#comment-1234642</link>
		<dc:creator>asterios9</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 15:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=121788#comment-1234642</guid>
		<description>Well, if you read the report, I think a few issues of context become clear.

It&#039;s not a bill.  It&#039;s providing background for something they want to do in the immediate future.  The language about the first amendment is not in the bill, and so nobody is actually going try to legally change the definition of your first amendment rights.

What they actually want to do is (1) broaden the concept of &quot;stalking&quot; to include harrassing electronic communications, as a special protection for people under 21.  (This is indeed debatable.)  and (2) expand the definition of manslaughter to include bullying that leads to suicide.  (This is actually pretty reasonable IMO, for cases like an adult woman impersonating a teenage boy and inducing her neighbor&#039;s daughter to kill herself.   Really happened.)  

The mentions of &quot;happy slapping&quot; etc. aren&#039;t in the actual bills either.  Again, it&#039;s just presented as background.

While the passage about free speech being a privilege is indeed unfortunate, it is followed by a much better citiation of Oliver Wendell Holmes&#039;s &quot;harm principle&quot; - &quot;the right to swing my fist ends where the other man&#039;s nose begins.&quot;  

Now, contrary to what a lot of first amendment fans on the internet believe, this is actually the standard in contemporary law.  Not all speech is protected.   It is already illegal to harrass, defame, and defraud -- to intentionally harm others with words.  

While I think the proposed bills that are debatable and need refinement, I think merely excising the passages one finds silly and ignoring the actual bills being proposed is bad journalism.  Like JSD, Savino is also my state rep, so I read the report ready to fire off a letter.   But what I found made me much more irritated at BB and the other bloggers who want to make hay out of this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, if you read the report, I think a few issues of context become clear.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not a bill.  It&#8217;s providing background for something they want to do in the immediate future.  The language about the first amendment is not in the bill, and so nobody is actually going try to legally change the definition of your first amendment rights.</p>
<p>What they actually want to do is (1) broaden the concept of &#8220;stalking&#8221; to include harrassing electronic communications, as a special protection for people under 21.  (This is indeed debatable.)  and (2) expand the definition of manslaughter to include bullying that leads to suicide.  (This is actually pretty reasonable IMO, for cases like an adult woman impersonating a teenage boy and inducing her neighbor&#8217;s daughter to kill herself.   Really happened.)  </p>
<p>The mentions of &#8220;happy slapping&#8221; etc. aren&#8217;t in the actual bills either.  Again, it&#8217;s just presented as background.</p>
<p>While the passage about free speech being a privilege is indeed unfortunate, it is followed by a much better citiation of Oliver Wendell Holmes&#8217;s &#8220;harm principle&#8221; &#8211; &#8220;the right to swing my fist ends where the other man&#8217;s nose begins.&#8221;  </p>
<p>Now, contrary to what a lot of first amendment fans on the internet believe, this is actually the standard in contemporary law.  Not all speech is protected.   It is already illegal to harrass, defame, and defraud &#8212; to intentionally harm others with words.  </p>
<p>While I think the proposed bills that are debatable and need refinement, I think merely excising the passages one finds silly and ignoring the actual bills being proposed is bad journalism.  Like JSD, Savino is also my state rep, so I read the report ready to fire off a letter.   But what I found made me much more irritated at BB and the other bloggers who want to make hay out of this.</p>
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		<title>By: The Chemist</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/10/05/new-york-state-senators-want-refined-first-amendment-laws-to-prevent-trolling-flaming-and-excluding-people-from-online-groups.html#comment-1234631</link>
		<dc:creator>The Chemist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 14:49:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=121788#comment-1234631</guid>
		<description>Why not hang a sign around your neck reading, 

&quot;DO NOT FEED.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why not hang a sign around your neck reading, </p>
<p>&#8220;DO NOT FEED.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Stonewalker</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/10/05/new-york-state-senators-want-refined-first-amendment-laws-to-prevent-trolling-flaming-and-excluding-people-from-online-groups.html#comment-1234632</link>
		<dc:creator>Stonewalker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 14:49:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=121788#comment-1234632</guid>
		<description>All you have to do to &quot;refine&quot; an amendment is pass a law that either narrowly or blatantly violates it and hope nobody sues.

As Soodonim said, neither the 1st amendment nor any of the others &quot;grant&quot; us rights, they *restrict* the government from passing certain types of laws or acting in certain ways.  This is a small but important distinction.  It&#039;s the difference between a right and a privilege.  Unfortunately, we have all been conditioned to believe that our rights are actually privileges, that can be taken away at a moment&#039;s notice.

One of the most out of control example of this is the prohibition of certain rights based on whether or not somebody has ever been convicted of a felony.  In many states, you can&#039;t vote if you are a felon.  I understand the sentiment, and I believe that for a time such a schema worked, but we have lowered the bar for felony over the past 100 years.  Felony crimes generally used to be capital crimes...  Just google &quot;ridiculous felonies&quot; and imagine all those crimes carrying the death sentence in years past.

Principally speaking, we either need to stop prohibiting rights based on felon-status (because that makes it a privilege, not a right) or restrict felonies to murder, rape, certain violent crimes and so on.

/soapbox_off</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All you have to do to &#8220;refine&#8221; an amendment is pass a law that either narrowly or blatantly violates it and hope nobody sues.</p>
<p>As Soodonim said, neither the 1st amendment nor any of the others &#8220;grant&#8221; us rights, they *restrict* the government from passing certain types of laws or acting in certain ways.  This is a small but important distinction.  It&#8217;s the difference between a right and a privilege.  Unfortunately, we have all been conditioned to believe that our rights are actually privileges, that can be taken away at a moment&#8217;s notice.</p>
<p>One of the most out of control example of this is the prohibition of certain rights based on whether or not somebody has ever been convicted of a felony.  In many states, you can&#8217;t vote if you are a felon.  I understand the sentiment, and I believe that for a time such a schema worked, but we have lowered the bar for felony over the past 100 years.  Felony crimes generally used to be capital crimes&#8230;  Just google &#8220;ridiculous felonies&#8221; and imagine all those crimes carrying the death sentence in years past.</p>
<p>Principally speaking, we either need to stop prohibiting rights based on felon-status (because that makes it a privilege, not a right) or restrict felonies to murder, rape, certain violent crimes and so on.</p>
<p>/soapbox_off</p>
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		<title>By: John Stephens</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/10/05/new-york-state-senators-want-refined-first-amendment-laws-to-prevent-trolling-flaming-and-excluding-people-from-online-groups.html#comment-1234621</link>
		<dc:creator>John Stephens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 14:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=121788#comment-1234621</guid>
		<description>Hey everybody!  It&#039;s time for another round of  NAME...THAT...PARTY!   Are you ready to denounce those NAUGHTY, EVIL CHRISTIANIST GAY-HATING  RETHUGLICAN TEABAGGERS?  Well tough shit, because all four of them are Democrats.  Better luck next time. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey everybody!  It&#8217;s time for another round of  NAME&#8230;THAT&#8230;PARTY!   Are you ready to denounce those NAUGHTY, EVIL CHRISTIANIST GAY-HATING  RETHUGLICAN TEABAGGERS?  Well tough shit, because all four of them are Democrats.  Better luck next time. </p>
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		<title>By: medontlivenoprahsworld</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/10/05/new-york-state-senators-want-refined-first-amendment-laws-to-prevent-trolling-flaming-and-excluding-people-from-online-groups.html#comment-1234622</link>
		<dc:creator>medontlivenoprahsworld</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 14:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=121788#comment-1234622</guid>
		<description>Agreed, but it is pretty tough to go up against &quot;The safe mothers league&quot; as I call them, when laws and rules about children begin to seem excessive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed, but it is pretty tough to go up against &#8220;The safe mothers league&#8221; as I call them, when laws and rules about children begin to seem excessive.</p>
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		<title>By: arp</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/10/05/new-york-state-senators-want-refined-first-amendment-laws-to-prevent-trolling-flaming-and-excluding-people-from-online-groups.html#comment-1234624</link>
		<dc:creator>arp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 14:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=121788#comment-1234624</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s tragic a few kids/teens are now killing themselves in part because of the internet. It sucks some kids are bullied at school. I feel badly for them and friends and family. But it has nothing whatsoever to do with the multimillions of other people not involved in their cases. To me this is an obvious and thinly veiled attempt to bait and switch. Shouting &quot;Oh the poor dead kids!!&quot;  is not nearly a good enough justification to screw around with the 1st amendment. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s tragic a few kids/teens are now killing themselves in part because of the internet. It sucks some kids are bullied at school. I feel badly for them and friends and family. But it has nothing whatsoever to do with the multimillions of other people not involved in their cases. To me this is an obvious and thinly veiled attempt to bait and switch. Shouting &#8220;Oh the poor dead kids!!&#8221;  is not nearly a good enough justification to screw around with the 1st amendment. </p>
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		<title>By: bja009</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/10/05/new-york-state-senators-want-refined-first-amendment-laws-to-prevent-trolling-flaming-and-excluding-people-from-online-groups.html#comment-1234619</link>
		<dc:creator>bja009</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 14:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=121788#comment-1234619</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d like to point out that these four senators are Democrats. Which isn&#039;t to say they can&#039;t be right-wing; but since most people&#039;s rule of thumb is &#039;Right Wing = Republican, Left Wing = Democrat&#039;, I figured I&#039;d clarify that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d like to point out that these four senators are Democrats. Which isn&#8217;t to say they can&#8217;t be right-wing; but since most people&#8217;s rule of thumb is &#8216;Right Wing = Republican, Left Wing = Democrat&#8217;, I figured I&#8217;d clarify that.</p>
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		<title>By: Art</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/10/05/new-york-state-senators-want-refined-first-amendment-laws-to-prevent-trolling-flaming-and-excluding-people-from-online-groups.html#comment-1234613</link>
		<dc:creator>Art</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 14:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=121788#comment-1234613</guid>
		<description>Agreed!!!!

&quot;It&#039;s for the children&quot;  has become such an overused, manipulative, political ploy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed!!!!</p>
<p>&#8220;It&#8217;s for the children&#8221;  has become such an overused, manipulative, political ploy.</p>
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		<title>By: betatron</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/10/05/new-york-state-senators-want-refined-first-amendment-laws-to-prevent-trolling-flaming-and-excluding-people-from-online-groups.html#comment-1234611</link>
		<dc:creator>betatron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 14:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=121788#comment-1234611</guid>
		<description>Won&#039;t &lt;i&gt;somebody&lt;/i&gt; think of the children!

I just saw a flyer in a workplace: &quot;Cyberbullying affects us all blah blah blah seminar blah&quot;.     

please g(h)od, make it stop.   I think this is one of those areas where LIEberals and KKKonservatives might be able to find common cause.  enemy of my enemy etc. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Won&#8217;t <i>somebody</i> think of the children!</p>
<p>I just saw a flyer in a workplace: &#8220;Cyberbullying affects us all blah blah blah seminar blah&#8221;.     </p>
<p>please g(h)od, make it stop.   I think this is one of those areas where LIEberals and KKKonservatives might be able to find common cause.  enemy of my enemy etc. </p>
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