Cory Doctorow at 5:22 am Sun, Nov 13, 2011
ADVERTISE AT BOING BOING!
smells like mean spirit
Load up on guns
Bring your friends
It’s fun to lose and to pretend
She’s overborne and self-assured
Oh no, I know a dirty word
Hello, hello, hello, hello, how low?
Where are those neo-piano wires when you need ‘em?
He’ll be back as soon as he can find enough spare time to run a country.
…reports also indicate that whilst being thrown out of office, Berlusconi was heard to mutter under his breath, “Hasta la vista. Baby.”
He still has full control of his party, his televisions and the next PM will not be strong enough in Parliament to force a change in the state TVs, so Berlusconi will have his men there too.
He’ll run a massive campaign pining the crisis and the austerity on the Monti government and the left-wing pre-2001 government’s legacy, no matter the fact he was in power for 8 of the last 10 years and he’ll probably win the next elections.
He’s started already, he’s in his former office broadcasting a message to the nation while the new PM is with the President.
So come on, how is Italy going to pay its debts? Run by politicians of all flavours?
Then on top add in the other debts, the pensions of those who have contributed lots of money over the years, that has been spent and not invested.
Ah yes, its that Thatcher argument again. All sins according to the left must be Thatcher. They can’t be our fiscal incompetence.
Italy had a very large debt for 20 years, the heritage of Berlusconi’s mentor Bettino Craxi’s and of the Cristian Democracy’s governments in the ’80s, and never had any problem in paying back.
During the left-wings government the debt was steadily reduced, during the Berlusconi’s governments it stayed stable or grew. The data are public, if you care to read them. The current crisis is quite simply due to the incompetence and bad reputation of Berlusconi and the general mistrust about his capacity to effectively rule: three years ago, when the last left-wing governments fell, the BTP-Bund spread was 37 but the debt (while much lower than the current 120%) was still a huge 103% of the GNP.
A true statesman would’ve resigned one year ago, when he lost the majority he won in the elections; he decided instead to keep going with the bare minimum of votes thanks to the help of a few paid-for opposition MPs (quite literally paid, some of them became junior members of the government, others received by Berlusconi’s publishing house huge advances for books who nobody will ever want to read, etc. etc.) because he couldn’t personally afford to lose power. While the economy was imploding, this year, Berlusconi was telling in TV that everything was ok and his majority was wasting time trying to pass shield laws, anti-wiretap laws and Parliamentary motions declaring that underage Moroccan “exotic dancer” Ruby Heart-stealer was truly Mubarak’s niece.
That debt will be the borrowing.
What about the other debts. Ah yes – we will ignore those.
For example I presume the Italian citizen will want their pensions.
Ah yes. Not a debt.
If its not a debt, it won’t be paid.
Nothing like hiding the big debts off the books.
The state pension system was completely revamped in the last 15 years and is stable now. It will not pay enough to live to the people who will retire after 2030, but this is known and everybody now pay for a complementary private retirement plan with reduced taxation that’s partially funded by the employers.
I can’t understand what you mean with “hiding the debt”. The debt can’t be repaid all at once, so, under the previous government, was being gradually reduced. The Italian state has been running surpluses before debt interest for years, whenever a batch of old bonds matures a smaller batch gets issued, usually, before the last Berlusconi’s government, with lower interest rates.
Well, does the government owe people their state pension or not?
If it owes people their state pension, then its a debt.
If its a debt, it should appear on the state’s books.
This is a wide spread fraud, not just associated with Italy.
So simple questions, yes and no answers would suffice.
1. Does the Italian state owe Italian citizens for the pensions for which the Italian citizens have paid the state?
2. If the answer is yes, do those debts appear in the Italian states accounts?
The issue of rolling over debt is a different issue. That’s down to the assumption that Italian bonds would be supported in the same way as German bonds being proved false.
That’s why the renewal rates have gone through the roof.
I don’t think you know a lot about Italy. Here there are a few institutions who manage the pension system, they get contributions from the workers and pay pensions to the retirees; there used to be a lot of them (one for most categories/nationalized agencies) but most where merged in the INPS (www.inps.it), its accounts are public and you can find them on that website.
The Italian state always paid back its debts, even during the most serious crises, and it is still managing to do it, as the German state does, so I don’t know how you can say that anything was proven false.
The Italian state always paid back its debts
I think it’s you who need the history lesson.
So come on, on the debts. Are the pension debts in the 120% of GDP figure or are they not included?
Ok, now I can’t understand you, maybe you’re projecting some other issue you have with some other state here, because as I wrote the pension system accounts are managed by a few semipublic agencies and are available on that website, where exactly do you want to come to?
A simple answer, yes or no on the question of Italian debt. You don’t seem to be able to answer it.
Are the pension liabilities included in the debt to GDP percentage ratio of 120%?
I wrote it three times already, the pensions are managed by the INPS, they’re included in the INPS accounts. What’s your problem?
Are those debts included in the 120% of GDP that is pushed as being a disaster? Simple question that you don’t seem to be able to answer
So now you can also help with the Italian side.
These are the latest accounts. I understand accounting. However, where are the liabilities listed in the accounts.
If there are assets, where are they listed.
On the accounting side. If you write on a piece of paper, I onereader, owe onereader 10 million Euros, does that mean you have a valuable asset?
It’s relevant, because lots of governments use that trick for the pension liabilities and I’m wondering if the Italian government does the same.
He’s not going to answer you. Not one of those responses had a whit of actual information it it. Lots of sweeping generalizations about you, Italy, and himself… what must be considered and that you know nothing…. but no actual engagement with anything beyond appearances.
Also, too, he’s calling a child-fucker a statesman, in case you missed that.
1) I’d happily answer if I could understand what the hell LordBlagger wants to know. He keeps asking about “pension liabilities in the state debt” and I keep answering that the pension system is managed by INPS, INPS publishes its accounts on its website and according to those accounts the pension system is stable, but that doesn’t seem to be what he wants to know and he’s not trying to explain himself better. I suppose I’m missing something, some bit of kerfuffle that evidently happened wherever LordBlagger lives and not here so we’re not making sense of each other. It’s like when British people argue about how intolerable a national ID card is, and I’m baffled because almost everywhere in Europe a national ID card is something completely normal and uncontroversial.
2) I said that a true statesman would have resigned and Berlusconi bought some MPs to stay in power, so can you tell me from where you inferred that I consider the unbearable asshole we were saddled with a statesman?
Like in 1940 when it defaulted?
That’s also ignoring the standard Italian solution to government debt, inflation.
It’s not available this time, hence the rabbits in the headlights of the politicos.
Anyway, time for some levity.
“Having got rid of the lecher Berlusconi, the Italian people will now be led by the fool Monti.”
I had to actually look it up… come on, in 1940 Italy unilaterally suspended payments towards enemy countries during the fucking World War Two! You can’t seriously call it a default.
And for what is worth inflation has been generally low in Italy for most of the last 15 years, exactly while the debt was higher, without any serious issue.
A true statesman would’ve resigned one year ago
you know, based on how long this man has been fucking children, I have to submit that your definition of statesman might not match mine.
Mussolini, the rerun…
I like the tag: “christ what an asshole” :)))
I’m Italian and i’m certainly glad the guy finally left, hopefully forever.
I’m a bit worried that the ones that remain are just slightly less psychopath (a-la the umburdened mind: http://www.damninteresting.com/the-unburdened-mind/) than the one that is leaving.
This said, presenting “La Destra” as a neo-fascist group is simply a falsity forged to spice up the story a little bit.
It’s always interesting to see how things are reported when you have a far greater knowdlege of a certain subject than the crowd, it teaches you to be careful when you are the crowd instead.
I’m a pacifist, and I certainly would never issue threats against a head of state or former head of state, but I wouldn’t shed many tears if Berlusconi got stabbed to death with a pitchfork. I’m not wishing for his death, that’s a terrible thing, and I’ve no intention of harming anyone. But I don’t know how sad I’d be if it happened, that’s all I’m saying.
And dig this, there was a prophecy. Just before Berlusconi’s head left office, his last words were “Death is but a door, time is but a window: I’ll be back.”
Mail (will not be published) (required)
Submit a tip
The rules you agree to by using this website.
Who will be eaten first?