“So you didn’t actually read what I wrote then? Alternatively, you have no
experience with this topic.”

I read what you wrote, and if you read my other comments in this thread you would see that I have a lot of experience as a parent in Stockton (where this story took place) fighting with the school district for over two years to get a 504 (not a 503) accommodation in place. So yes, I do have experience from both the side of a psychologist and from the side of a parent who wants the best for her child. I see from your profile that you home school your children, so I’m guessing that your experience with this is somewhat less.

“You do not need to make a specific diagnosis in order to receive services. We are not discussing a private practice that deals with insurance companies. We are discussing students and IEPs. There are huge differences. These differences come into play because of IDEA, which has different language and definitions than the DSM, meaning they are less like apples and potatoes and more like bell peppers and banana peppers. Again, to be clear, because apparently you do not understand, a student can be referred for evaluation, found eligible, and receive services
without anyone -even the evaluators – ever referring to the DSM, based solely on IDEA guidelines.”

You do not need a diagnosis to REQUEST services, you do need one to receive services. That’s the point of the evaluation, whether they use the DSM or ICD to state the ultimate diagnosis (depending on the nature of the disability), an evaluation does typically have a diagnosis attached to it.

“How is this relevant? Again, we’re not discussing a pediatrician referring a child to someone like you. (Assuming that you actually are a mental health professional.) We are discussing school referrals. Physicians don’t generally come into it at all.”

You are the one who brought up “best practices” where do you think those best practices originate? The fact that you don’t think physicians come into the referral process shows how little you actually know about this process. My child’s physician has been involved in
every step with his school.

“Is your Google broken? Try ‘best practices’ ‘IEP’ and the names of various states. You’ll come up with sets of best practices for occupational therapy, psychology, speech-language therapy, and many other areas of concern, compiled by various states for use within their schools.”

I did that when I found the article I cited previously that you deem irrelevant based on the fact that it didn’t match with what you were saying. Hence, why I asked if you could point me toward something. However, given that you went the “is your google broken route” I take it you couldn’t find anything either?

The sad thing is that this article isn’t about what age you diagnose a child with ADHD. It’s about the utter failure of the school to help a child who already had the diagnosis based on the fact that they didn’t want to pay for services and thought that they could use a police officer to scare away his neurological problems.

1) My children and grandchildren were all taught that no strangers were allowed to touch them for any reason, unless a parent or grandparent was present. I was a cop for most of my children’s childhoods, and we still taught them that people in uniform weren’t any more trustworthy than anyone else. On the other hand, they were also convinced that the punishment they would receive at home was going to be worse than anything the school could provide.

2) In my state, a child under the age of 7 is legally deemed to be physically, mentally, and psychologically incapable of forming the INTENT to commit a crime. Intent is a vital component of any crime and, if someone is to be arrested, intent must be there.

3) In my state, if a juvenile has ANY type of interaction with the police, the parents or guardians MUST be notified prior to doing more than detaining the child. Generally, unless the child is in danger of injuring himself or others, physical restraints are not used.

4) The parents, whether birth parents or step-parents (the article is not clear as to the existence of step-parents), apparently failed to teach the child the basics of public decorum. Even children with ADD, ADHD, Autism, or any other psychological disturbance can learn the basic difference between right and wrong. Expecting a 5 year old to always make the correct choice is unrealistic in the extreme, especially since most adults don’t always make the best choices.

5) It appears to me that the teachers and school principal failed to provide an atmosphere conducive to learning. There is a reasonable expectation, when I send my child to school, that the school will provide the opportunity for the child to learn in whatever manner the child requires. As far as the whole fighting thing, I’ve watched hundreds of sporting events, especially football, and it’s usually the guy who throws the second punch who gets caught. That’s the reason that both participants get punished. Schools don’t use reason and judgement, they use “zero-tolerance”. This allegedly makes decisions easier, but it really teaches the child that, no matter what he or she does, someone can arbitrarily decide the action was wrong, often long after the child has forgotten the initial incident.

6) Finally, the officer failed in several ways. First. he is at a level of experience and rank where he should have had much better judgement. His rank indicates that he is one of the officers that the department trusts to make command decisions, but this incident shows that he may not have the judgement that is required for his position. He must be aware, if California is like most states, that a 5 year old cannot, by definition, commit any crime.

I don’t think this was handled satisfactorily at any level. The child was being a child and should have been treated accordingly, not terrorized and kidnapped. If a parent had done what this officer did, the parent would currently be in jail awaiting trial for child abuse, but apparently using terror in place of discipline is the norm in California schools.

@SedanChair (at 5:12 PM on 11/29/11)–That’s not entirely true, it just seems that way because, unless you regularly interact with cops, you only hear about the bad ones.

@OldBrownSquirrel (at 6:17 on 11/29/11)–They do have a statutory duty, but many failures to report have been documented over the last few years.
Nothing can ever excuse this officer’s lack of judgement and abusive acts. This child will never see the police in the same way again. When I started my career, the standard was how much publc service we could provide. Now, it seems, the standard is moving toward the police state. It used to be that unless something was specifically forbidden, then it was allowed. Now we are moving toward a time when unless something is specifically allowed, then it is forbidden. That is the definition of a police state, not the land of the free and the home of the brave. That’s not a place I want to be.

@Palomino (at 9:37 PM on 11/29/11)–So, if the parents do it, it’s a crime, but if the cops do it, it’s standard procedure? God, how much more of a double standard can you have?

@bawhamper (at 4:38 AM on 11/30/11)–No. It just seems that way because they look and act just like everybody else until the time when they don’t. Many people who were actively recruited for employment in my department turned out to be less than professional (read: a**es with no redeeming value). Most were eased out or moved to a position where they couldn’t do any damage but, occasionally, one of hem would screw up in some spectacular way and the’r actions reflected badly on all of the other employees in the department.

So you didn’t actually read what I wrote then? Alternatively, you have no experience with this topic.

You do not need to make a specific diagnosis in order to receive services. We are not discussing a private practice that deals with insurance companies. We are discussing students and IEPs. There are huge differences. These differences come into play because of IDEA, which has different language and definitions than the DSM, meaning they are less like apples and potatoes and more like bell peppers and banana peppers. Again, to be clear, because apparently you do not understand, a student can be referred for evaluation, found eligible, and receive services without anyone -even the evaluators – ever referring to the DSM, based solely on IDEA guidelines.

The most recent practice guidelines for ADHD were released in October 2011 by the American Academy of Pediatrics. They specify what’s needed for diagnosing between age 4 and age 18. The previous guidelines specified ages 6 to 12. You can read them here: http://pediatrics.aappublicati…

How is this relevant? Again, we’re not discussing a pediatrician referring a child to someone like you. (Assuming that you actually are a mental health professional.) We are discussing school referrals. Physicians don’t generally come into it at all.

I’m still wondering where you get this idea that psychologists have determined that waiting until a child is age 8 to make a firm diagnosis is best practice.

I’m still wondering why you keep misquoting me. Again, let me quote myself:

“…in many states, they won’t assign a diagnosis at all until that age. Until then, students only have a ‘learning disability’ or a ‘developmental disability’. This is because reputable psychologists have determined that waiting until a child is age 8 to make a firm diagnosis is a best practice.”

You seem to be mistaking ‘many states’ for ‘everyone’ and ‘reputable pyscologists’ for ‘all psychologists everyone, so why wasn’t I informed???’.

If you were saying age 6 I could understand, but I’ve not seen anything that states best practices for diagnosing ADHD is age 8. Could you show me something that backs that up?

Is your Google broken? Try ‘best practices’ ‘IEP’ and the names of various states. You’ll come up with sets of best practices for occupational therapy, psychology, speech-language therapy, and many other areas of concern, compiled by various states for use within their schools.

I seem to be getting on your bad side today, sorry about that.

Additionally, because so many of these children have behavioral components that go along with the neurological deficits the people who implement IDEA on the school level frequently think, like many of the posters in this thread, that it’s just a matter of the child not being well disciplined.  As an example, the woman in charge of accommodations for another school district in Stockton (LUSD) stated directly to us in a meeting that she characterizes her child-welfare job as “being in charge of discipline and bad kids” rather than being in charge of making certain that accommodations to provide children with FAPE are in place.

You are absolutely right, there is a “heckuva lot of difference” between IDEA and the DSM. One is used for diagnosing and one is to make certain that people who have disabilities, that frequently are first determined by making a diagnosis, are receiving the services that they need. It’s like saying there’s a heckuva lot of difference between an apple and a potato.

The most recent practice guidelines for ADHD were released in October 2011 by the American Academy of Pediatrics. They specify what’s needed for diagnosing between age 4 and age 18. The previous guidelines specified ages 6 to 12. You can read them here: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/128/5/1007.full

I’m still wondering where you get this idea that psychologists have determined that waiting until a child is age 8 to make a firm diagnosis is best practice. If you were saying age 6 I could understand, but I’ve not seen anything that states best practices for diagnosing ADHD is age 8. Could you show me something that backs that up?

Or… if a five-year-old can take you, you have bigger problems and probably shouldn’t be serving the public.

And to those above saying this is an out-of-control little boy, nobody with any care for or knowledge of child development and education would think the police hadn’t behaved in a brutally, stupidly, criminally counter-productive asinine way.

I completely fail to see how a scared five year old child throwing a temper tantrum and striking out physically would be a surprise (ADHD or not), given the situation, let alone grounds for tying him up and sending him off to the hospital!

Furthermore- if you have a child that age, and you have serious concerns about their ability to behave, isn’t it time for a counselor or mental health professional to come and assess the kid and/or offer them some coping strategies, instead of a police officer? I know that these pros cost money- but so do police.

I agree that social class also plays a tremendous role in children’s experience in school–and partially because parents who have equal (or higher) capital than teachers and principals have more power in schools. 

The reason I wanted to turn this to a conversation about race, is because one of my particular interests is how children who are culturally or linguistically diverse experience the Special Education system– which is of course related to how all kids experience the education system. It turns out that African American, spanish speaking Hispanic, and American Indian kids in California are overrepresented in the IDEA categories of Emotionally Disturbed, Mentally Retarded,and Learning Disabled. These are terrible findings, and perhaps only relevant because I can see how someone who is overly disciplined in a setting might display characteristics that are resistant to learning in that setting. 
 
It’s not that low SES, black, disabled kids are only ones to get mistreated by schools– just that data suggests they are the most likely ones. 

I ask of you good sir, “2010? Where is your sense of history?”

Parents get mixed messages constantly, it is when they stop trying and just let society raise them that it gets horrible.  If you let the village raise your child, you might be the village idiot.

In this case it seems we have a mother who knows her child has issues, not seeing all of the reports or evidence can’t judge how much she sees his actions through the mom vision, she has tried to get the help that by law should be available at school to make sure her child gets an education.  The school doesn’t want to spend money to do this, so instead takes a page from the 1970′s and do a remake of “Scared Straight” because that will obviously fix it.  The rest is a comedy of errors that could have been avoided if the budget to help “special needs” children hadn’t been blown on ergonomic chairs for the school board.  I’m playing the odds here but the constant theme of things are bad is to make sure every other employee of the school district takes pay cuts long before any administrator has to think about having their budget touched.

– oops meant to reply to Andrew Molloy