Is Siri sexist?

robdobbs

Siri can answer a lot of health related questions perfectly well, why shouldn’t we expect it to be able to answer reproductive health related queries too? Why treat reproductive health as a walled-off garden that the general public can’t or shouldn’t be exposed to? It’s not simply that in some places Siri has sent people to distant anti-choice fake clinics when they’ve asked where they can get abortions (and there are providers near to them) it’s also that in some locations (including mine) Siri refuses to disclose abortion clinic locations at all. Watch:

http://amaditalks.tumblr.com/post/13513981784/siri

Ryan_T_H

That whole thing is sensationalist.
If you want an extensive articel on why read this

The sort version is that Siri is a front-end for a bunch of databases/search engines. From Yelp to Wolfram Alpha to a bunch of others. Some are more complete and comprehensive than others. Hence “I want a taco” has a lots of places to go and find lists of Mexican restaurants.

To my knowledge there are no abortion clinic review sites. So the same general searches that work for tacos do not work for more specific subjects.

If you ask Siri for directions – “How do I get to Planned Parrenthood” – It works just fine because the map feature is robust.
- http://alessar.livejournal.com/ Alessar
  
  If Siri is lacking information on some areas, it just offers to search for it. In the examples under discussion, it does not. Siri’s response to the statement “I’ve been raped.” is “Oh, really?” You need to actually read the article linked above. There are many examples that show it is aware of and actively skirting the subjects, not just coming up empty.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_2EG4EYG2HQD225HJBOFCGRXDY4 yahoo-2EG4EYG2HQD225HJBOFCGRXDY4

Siri have a male voice in my iPhone.

http://twitter.com/not3nor4 Not3 Nor4

“…just like Laura Ingraham, but less robotic.”
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/403350/november-30-2011/conservative-siri

http://twitter.com/MartinBuckler Martin Buckler

My Siri is a bloke. Question nullified.

http://twitter.com/anditron anditron

Looks like you missed the latest news on Siri and women’s health. Siri won’t tell you where to get women’s reproductive services (abortion or otherwise), get help if raped or beaten, or get the morning after pill. It won’t even give you the opportunity to search the web in some instances. But if you’re in need of some Viagra to get it on, by all means, there’s an answer for that!
http://www.themarysue.com/siri-wont-talk-about-abortions/
- tyr
  
  Siri is only as good as the backend databases it is using. TUAW pretty much debunked this entire thing :
  
  “A Siri search for “Planned Parenthood” almost always returns results no matter where you search in the States — because that search is powered by Yelp rather than whatever comparatively limited database Siri is using for more specific searches like “abortion clinic” or “birth control.”"
  
  http://www.tuaw.com/2011/11/30/debunked-ridiculous-claims-of-pro-life-bias-in-siri/
- http://twitter.com/BenEhlers Ben Ehlers
  
  Replace “won’t” with “can’t”. The quality and quantity of a dataset necessarily limits the results it returns. I fully expect this to change in the future.

http://www.facebook.com/toshfieldsend Tosh Fieldsend

*facepalm* anthropomorphising technology

dwhistler

In England Siri is a male voice. Isn’t Siri also the fantasy of an ever-patient, wry butler?

Edie Howe

Well, yeah. Just because Siri has a semi-human-sounding (female!) voice, it is a program made by a male-dominated industry. And even if its code was written by females, those females had male bosses they had to answer to. Just like Siri.

http://twitter.com/badtux99 Bad Tux

Amanda Marcotte believes the word “she” is sexist because it includes the two letters “he”, so it doesn’t surprise me that she’d think Siri is sexist. On its back end Siri is querying a database that was purchased from a 3rd party provider that also provides the same data to, e.g., the vendor of the GPS unit in your car (which similarly has problems if you ask it for the address of reproductive health clinics nearby). As for why these standard industry location databases do not include information specific to women’s reproductive health… now *that* is an interesting question to ask. But blaming Siri for the limitations of the location databases available for purchase is like blaming a lug wrench for the fact that you got a flat tire… it’s just a tool, you need to look at the underlying problem and not blame the tool.

http://twitter.com/radicalbytes Jonathan McIntosh

I’d say that Siri is actually the very definition of institutional and structural sexism.

AirPillo

*Edit* On second thought I should read the article first and not comment vapidly on the summary. I missed the point entirely.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_KLDXI7FI3NUHYC23SUHMGLNBCQ Tom

The article says:
“The problem isn’t that anyone involved with this hates women. The problem is that they just don’t think about women very much.”

NOT TRUE! As a software developer, I ASSURE you we think ABOUT women CONSTANTLY.

But as a rule, we don’t know how to think LIKE a woman at all. Seriously, you gals are a complete mystery to us.

Kristi Cates

Oh, haha, the whole “Women are a mystery to the male brain, amirite guys?” schtick. How to think like a woman? Hint: Women are people, too. They generally think like people do. Love the assumption that all software developers are clueless men, though.
- http://twitter.com/sarvinc sarvinc
  
  Oh, haha, the whole “we’re different but the same.” shtick. I mean, I get it you can’t stand anyone making a joke about sexism. Heck, I’m sensitive about plenty of things as well.
  
  If you make the argument that women are people and generally think like people do than I imagine you agree with the argument that men are people and generally think like people do. If both men and women are people and generally think like people do then we shouldn’t have a problem with Siri.Also, “Love the assumption that all software developers are clueless men, though.” You could argue that this assumption is actually made by the author of the article rather than Tom.
  - Kristi Cates
    
    Tom’s the one who said that software programmers think about women all the time but don’t know what they’re thinking, implying that all software developers are men. And if it’s true that all or nearly all software developers ARE men, then there’s an excellent example of institutional sexism right there. It’s not that every one of these programmers are intentionally being sexist, it’s that they’re apparently blind to some of the needs of about 50% of the population.
    
    But hey, nice attempt to stick me with the old humorless feminist stereotype again. I’ve got a decent enough sense of humor – I just don’t find sexist assumptions funny enough to laugh at, unless in a pitying sort of way.
    - http://twitter.com/sarvinc sarvinc
      
      Weird, I previously replied but I don’t see it. Perhaps it was flagged? I’m keeping this short.
      
      If you inferred something from Tom’s post you should infer the same thing, and more, from what Tom quoted. I’m not sure why you don’t see that.
      
      I don’t care about your gender and I could care less about sticking you with any sort of stereotype. It’s offensive to randomly attack people with claims of gender bias and it’s something you’ve done in both replies. How could you even know if I’m a man or woman?
      
      I’m sure you have a great sense of humor and are a wonderful person. In this case you dumped on someone for making light of a situation you’re sensitive about. There’s a difference between you feeling strongly about a problem and someone else having a gender bias.
- Millo Lopez
  
  I’m sorry I don’t have the numbers on hand to back me up but women are VERY underrepresented in the science/engineering/programming fields. There are associations such as the Society for Women Engineers that try to engage young females to pursue these fields but it is an uphill battle.
  
  When I studied Mechanical Engineering (2000-2005) around 95% of students were male (I swear I’m not exaggerating). I suspect computer science has a similar demographic. And while I doubt the software developers are oblivious to women’s needs it’s likely it won’t occur to them unless they are reminded to do so.
  - echthroi
    
    Yep, similar for CS (2005-2009, Arkansas uni). Around 80% male in lower level courses, moving to 95-100% in the senior-level courses.
    
    edit: Which is to say, yes, this is definitely institutional sexism and is worth fighting to change.

waterfoul518

Sheesh. I went to the Forbes post, found their comments a firey, ugly neighborhood of hyper-aggressive man-splaining and vitriol.
I came back here to comisserate and sigh.

But guess what I found here? More of the same, slightly dulled down.

Not what I expected, Mutants. pretty sad actually.
The point of the post is to suggest that Women’s Health shouldn’t be an afterthought. Google should be ashamed is searching ‘breast exam’ gets you porn. Mac should be ashamed that it’s search aggregator can’t find ‘abortion clinic’ as distinct from ‘crisis pregnancy center’.

And regardless of your abortion politics, if you don’t know the difference, apparently you believe Women’s Health is an afterthought.

So, Shame.

firedup

“Google should be ashamed is searching ‘breast exam’ gets you porn. ”

Why? If searching “breast exam” gets you porn, it’s because more people who search those terms click on porn in the results than useful links. Don’t blame Google for people liking to look at porn.
- Eduardo de Oliveira Padoan
  
  Not necessarily. They adjust their algorithms all the time to be more relevant to their public. For example, their latest changes where to put domain-parking sites lower on the ranking.
PJDK

I just did a search for “Breast Exam” and even with safe search off everything (web, images, videos) is about breast exams.

As for the claim in the article. Well the abortion thing is weird, I’d like to see someone do a thorough article on what it does and doesn’t show and how that compares to equivalent searches to see if this is technical or deliberate. Does it do anything else to inhibit the needs of women?

But the article seems to imply that the program is sexist because it is a bit like the ideal 1950s secretary. Being “discreet, understanding, willing to roll with any demand a man might come up with, teasingly accepting of dirty jokes.” are excellent features in a computer program which isn’t a real person
Antinous / Moderator

So, Shame.

Unfortunately, the internet is still dominated by men with poor empathy skills.

Benjamin Allison

It’s amazing how sensitive people can be.

Siri is a male in the UK; that completely undermines Hill’s premise.

But beyond that, the singular purpose behind all technology is to aid human activity. Further, humans ask questions; sometimes (for humour’s sake). Where these two things intersect looks something like Siri (or Google for that matter). Only a contrarian, or someone too in love with the sound of their own keyboard (or both) would assume that a technological solution to organization and information gathering is “sexist.”

It’s a fantastic example of someone projecting their own insecurities.

llazy8

I beg to differ. Women can be sexist. Power-hungry women can be sexist (Sarah Palin anyone?). Men and transsexuals and children and all humans can be sexist if the net result of their words and deeds reinforces a patriarchal social/mating system where power and resources (monetary, information, prestige-based, you-name-it) are not evenly spread all around the many genders and sexes, but concentrated in a way unlikely to be attributable to random-scattering, i.e. heterosexual cis-men seem to be overly represented in their possession of these things. So much so that a logarithm would recognize the needs and whims of heterosexual cis-men while not those of something so mundane as cis-women.

Now, here’s the rub: when this comes out, mind you not due to any conspiracy on the part of the company IMHO, instead of us all snickering at how below-the-bar that one was, Apple, sheesh, many rush in to abuse the most-interested party here, the non-heterosexual cis-men who’s needs and whims aren’t as well addressed by this product.

So, whenever in life the more comfortable one in a contest cries that the less comfortable one must stop seeking redress for this disparity, what that’s called is abuse of power. It’s called discrimination and many scientists will tell you to consider what’s to gain and what’s to lose in these contests before considering the ‘emotional angle’ as per ‘It’s amazing how sensitive people can be.’ What, Benjamin Allison, makes your day-to-day life easier and more comfortable by helping hold up the Patriarchy? Doesn’t matter if you are a man or a woman or combination thereof-just like being poor doesn’t mean you will never uphold the interests of the rich against those of the poor (Cops, Soldiers, ahem). Finally, here’s a little reading about those type of judgmental comments, although the fact that this guy gets so much applause for his writing is part of the whole point here (as he points out in a post featured on Boing Boing some time back): http://thecurrentconscience.com/blog/2011/09/12/a-message-to-women-from-a-man-you-are-not-%E2%80%9Ccrazy%E2%80%9D/

Phoc Yu

Trollolol.

nageth

Perhaps the more relevant question is “do sensationalist bloggers even bother to ask real questions to people who can answer them before making a big stink over something with a rather simple (yet less hysteric) explanation and solution?” In other words, why did no one ask Apple why or maybe how Siri even works before inventing a convoluted conspiracy? At the moment I fully believe that this is just an oversight as far as Siri’s abilities (which are still in beta) and will addressed in time.

Von Haus

But that’s kind of the point. Women’s health is an important issue to at least half of the worlds population (a lot more when you include the guys who care about it too) and yet it is left out as an oversight when prostitution and viagra are not. (not that women can’t visit prostitutes or have a use for viagra but still you should hopefully be able to understand what I’m getting at here)

That’s why the term institutionalised sexism is used, it’s not because people are going out of their way to push women aside, it’s that the whole world we live in does that without even thinking.

Also the name/gender of the voice thing really isn’t what this is about, drop the straw man folks.
- nageth
  
  So that excuses the complete (institutionalized) lack of asking questions? If we’re going to get into (institutionalized) sexism, you have to also understand that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Knowing when to fight your battles is important and I hardly think attacking Siri is the best way to handle real and very obvious cases of sexism (e.g. a certain presidential candidate’s handling of accusations comes to mind as a more worthy case to focus on).
  - Antinous / Moderator
    
    Knowing when to fight your battles is important and I hardly think attacking Siri is the best way to handle real and very obvious cases of sexism (e.g. a certain presidential candidate’s handling of accusations comes to mind as a more worthy case to focus on).
    
    You think that Herman Cain’s campaign is more important to women than access to family planning information?
    - nageth
      
      You think that going into a frenzy claiming Apple is denying you access to abortions and is thus sexist is more important than asking questions and finding answers? That seems to be the reaction so far (i.e. petitioning before even finding out why it even happened). Way to latch on to one sentence in my comment (meant to illustrate a serious case of sexism) instead of actually reading my point.

SomeGuyNamedMark

I didn’t know phones could even have genders. How about not peeing yourself over every perceived slight in life?

From what I’ve read different countries tend to go with different voices (in GPS for example). Supposedly the UK went with female voices (and we copied them) because the warning voices needed to stand out from all the male voices on aircraft radio traffic (e.g. stall warnings, missile locks, etc). This carried over to other technologies.

llazy8

Hmm, isn’t it more polite to say ‘Now don’t you go worrying that pretty little head of yours about this gender-inequality stuff’? I think ‘How about not peeing yourself over every perceived slight in life?’ is just much too nasty for sensitive women-types . . .

Mind you, women would be peeing themselves so much, every day, at work, at home, on the train, in a plane, with or without ham, that you wouldn’t believe how hard it was to get anything at all accomplished if women did, in fact, pee themselves over every slight.
- Antinous / Moderator
  
  Mind you, women would be peeing themselves so much, every day, at work, at home, on the train, in a plane, with or without ham, that you wouldn’t believe how hard it was to get anything at all accomplished if women did, in fact, pee themselves over every slight.
  
  It might be fairly effective if, instead of peeing themselves, they peed on the people who slighted them.
  - llazy8
    
    Well, now, that’s a whole specialty-rack of adult videos that Siri hasn’t directed me to yet, either.

zebbart

As if the timbre of the voice determines whether the thing is sexist! And no one has to suppose that the programmers were sexist to still argue that the technology is sexist. To the extent that Siri uses a wide sample of a certain culture, it reflects that culture’s bias. Since there is still plenty of latent sexism in contemporary English speaking technologically advanced culture, Siri is sexist to the extent that it reflects or amplifies that culture.

bcsizemo

And this is how I know the world is turning to shit. When you need at ask your phone where to get birth control or to have an abortion you are not contributing to the gene pool that I want to be a part of.

Seriously people. Birth control, like the pill, should be planned in advanced. You know because you have to talk to your doctor at some point for a prescription anyway. I’m not even going down the abortion road… Ask Siri about that, is like asking 4chan how to commit suicide. Obviously if anyone replies to you they probably aren’t the best source of advice, considering they are still alive.

(I am aware that neither abortion nor suicide are trite matters. I am simply using one to point out the stupidity of the other.)

Frankly Siri is an experiment or at best a beta program in training. Think about it. Apple is basically giving Nuance a huge pool on input to tweak their voice recognition software. There is really no better way to test/modify programs like these then have them be used in full scale simulations.

http://twitter.com/BenEhlers Ben Ehlers

“And this is how I know the world is turning to shit. When you need at ask your phone where to get birth control or to have an abortion you are not contributing to the gene pool that I want to be a part of.”

I like the irony of this comment. You are arguing that people that want to seek advice on abortion services from a voice interface shouldn’t contribute to the gene pool, which is funny because if they were successful, they wouldn’t! Doesn’t that that mean that you are getting exactly what you want?
Fnordius

Relax, the time when something like that would be asked is when you are in a new neighbourhood for example, or any of a multitude of other instances when previously you would consult a telephone book or the newspaper. Now those pulp paper periodicals are replaced by the Internet, and Siri is just a way to access the information.

I think this only shows the weakness of crowd sourced information: it can only be as good as the crowd that it draws its information from. For example, with more information about where to find a new gynaecologist as more users enter information about which ones they trust, the databases will improve.

netribution

Following the news reports about Siri being ‘anti abortion’ I finally checked out a video of Siri on the Apple website. I have no idea if the software is sexist (can you have a male voice or is it always a woman?), but the video is definitely 50s-level outdated:

Man jogs while making business instructions. Man drives and gets Siri to send message to wife. Wife is at home doing housework and checking weather. Another woman is baking and checking weights. I was pretty disturbed before I’d seen this Forbes article.

atimoshenko

Umm, isn’t the woman packing for a business trip? Rather than “wife at home doing housework”… Also, voice is male in Europe.

Bottle Imp

Siri: pathetic fallacy or pathetic phallusy?

vonbobo

“I want the one with more Gee Bee’s”

http://www.facebook.com/toshfieldsend Tosh Fieldsend

jeeeeeesus, some of these comments… can we just replace the voice with a monotone non gender specific series of bleeps that we have to decode and/or learn to trill back at our inanimate device, or better yet, make use of the front facing camera and use iSemaphore . are flags sexist?

David Hill

On those that blame search engines and the like: Shenanigans.

I tested both Jeannie (Google’s own answer to Siri) and Iris (a joke made by some Google app developers). Both have given me plenty of very accurate information about reproductive health questions.

C W

http://www.tuaw.com/2011/11/30/debunked-ridiculous-claims-of-pro-life-bias-in-siri/

I’d be more concerned if this was an intentional issue and not a SOCIAL limitation of Siri’s source material. The implementation is the problem, it is not inherently sexist.

http://grumer.org/ Avram Grumer

We sure are getting a lot of commenters who feel comfortable dismissing the premise of the post without reading the linked article.

As far as the TUAW article goes, while Rawson does point out how ridiculous it is to jump to the conclusion that Apple has a “pro-life” bias that is responsible for Siri not finding abortion services, he isn’t addressing Marcotte’s argument that someone (either at Apple, or at the company that initially designed Siri, or at the search engines that Siri uses) went the extra mile to make sure that “I’m horny” gets you an escort service, but no effort at all to make sure that “I need an abortion” gets you a real abortion provider.

nageth

Interesting question is what would people think if the Siri programer who put in the joke “I’m horny” made a similar joke regarding abortion? Can you imaging the backlash? This is an emotionally charged issue so I doubt people want Apple to handle such a thing flippantly. Using the jokes and easter eggs as justification for demanding that searching for an abortion provider at launch of the beta is somewhat weak. I’m sure Siri cannot parse quite a few health related issues right now (hopefully this will all change soon).
- http://grumer.org/ Avram Grumer
  
  So you’re saying the “I’m horny” thing was a joke, rather than a sincere attempt to connect horny people with prostitutes? I’m not sure if that makes the situation better or worse. Does it exonerate Apple to say that they put more effort into a joke than they did into serving the needs of the female half of their customer base?

haineux

Apple has already issued a statement 1) apologizing and 2) promising to fix soon.

EricT

I never would have shelled out money for my tiny robotic slave if I knew anyone was going to throw a hissy fit about it.

Guest

Short answer: No.

Long answer: The vast majority of the people who program Siri are male. Hence male oriented answers work better in Siri. It’s more of a failure of good management/marketing (to test and find out about these short comings), and of the US society as a whole to try and avoid strongly gender-linked professions.

TheMudshark

I can´t even find my potty without Siri, how the hell does apple expect me to find an abortion clinic?