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	<title>Comments on: Guide: which US restaurants pay sick leave, living wages? Which have institutionalized&#160;racism?</title>
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	<description>Brain candy for Happy Mutants</description>
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		<title>By: Rose M. Welch</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/12/02/guide-which-us-restaurants-pa.html#comment-1287550</link>
		<dc:creator>Rose M. Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Dec 2011 19:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=132576#comment-1287550</guid>
		<description>In my city, the drivers rent the vehicle and pay a portion of each fare back to the company. YMMV, tho. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my city, the drivers rent the vehicle and pay a portion of each fare back to the company. YMMV, tho. :)</p>
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		<title>By: AlexG55</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/12/02/guide-which-us-restaurants-pa.html#comment-1287506</link>
		<dc:creator>AlexG55</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Dec 2011 18:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=132576#comment-1287506</guid>
		<description>Taxi drivers are different. For one thing, they get to keep the fare not just the tip. They&#039;re effectively self-employed- it&#039;s just that depending on where (or when!)  they are their costs are either renting the cab or insurance, maintenance, depreciation, etc.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Taxi drivers are different. For one thing, they get to keep the fare not just the tip. They&#8217;re effectively self-employed- it&#8217;s just that depending on where (or when!)  they are their costs are either renting the cab or insurance, maintenance, depreciation, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: LintMan</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/12/02/guide-which-us-restaurants-pa.html#comment-1287307</link>
		<dc:creator>LintMan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Dec 2011 16:51:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=132576#comment-1287307</guid>
		<description>&quot;and you can&#039;t see your way to giving them 15% of the total bill?&quot;

What?  Did you read what I wrote?  Jeez.  Pick someone else for your strawman.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;and you can&#8217;t see your way to giving them 15% of the total bill?&#8221;</p>
<p>What?  Did you read what I wrote?  Jeez.  Pick someone else for your strawman.</p>
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		<title>By: LintMan</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/12/02/guide-which-us-restaurants-pa.html#comment-1287303</link>
		<dc:creator>LintMan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Dec 2011 16:49:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=132576#comment-1287303</guid>
		<description>Did you even read what I wrote?  I already said I tip 20%.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did you even read what I wrote?  I already said I tip 20%.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Smith</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/12/02/guide-which-us-restaurants-pa.html#comment-1287091</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Dec 2011 05:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=132576#comment-1287091</guid>
		<description>Document loads fine, fix your crappy browser and/or computer.  ;-p</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Document loads fine, fix your crappy browser and/or computer.  ;-p</p>
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		<title>By: Kate Mittendorf</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/12/02/guide-which-us-restaurants-pa.html#comment-1286780</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate Mittendorf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Dec 2011 07:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=132576#comment-1286780</guid>
		<description>I was raised to tip at 20%. For one, the math is easier than 18%. For another, we&#039;ve always had waitstaff in the family, so we knew that people didn&#039;t get the tips they deserved. And finally, the results of tipping well have always supported my continuing to do so. Usually, if you tip well, and I think especially if you don&#039;t look like a person who should tip well, your waiter/waitress will remember you. For instance, I can afford to eat at a sit-down restaurant once about every 2 months. I like to go to this sushi restaurant when I can. I have shellfish allergies, and my waiter (whose name is Justin) knows all about them, so he always gets the chef to make me my favorites with different types of fish substituted for the shellfish. And, he always charges me less, because he says salmon and tuna cost the restaurant less than shrimp and crab. I started tipping him 20% but now I always round up a dollar or two, just because he is so attentive (plus, I am saving on what I would pay at another establishment when I ask to have the shellfish substituted...that money may as well go to the guy getting me the deal). 

And for those of you thinking that only the 1% (or top 50% or whatever) can afford to tip at 20%, I am a graduate student. Because I am in health-related research, I am fortunate enough to make a small living stipend and have my tuition paid for, but it&#039;s not like I&#039;m making starting salary for a position in my field that I could garner after my undergraduate education. But, I budget my groceries well, don&#039;t use credit cards so that I don&#039;t incur interest on my purchases, and when I go to a restaurant, I tip with someone like me in mind--someone who works a lot of hours and doesn&#039;t make minimum wage when it&#039;s divided up. Make no mistake, most discoveries are made by graduate students and post-doctoral researchers, but it&#039;s the big boss who gets the credit because his writing funds the lab. For their education level, post-doctoral researchers are probably the least well-paid individuals on the planet, but they do it because they love it. When I see a waiter/waitress who is truly attentive, I like to believe that they like to make my night out really hassle free, and I like for them to get paid for doing so. After all, it&#039;s one night where (a) I do nothing to prepare the food (b) I get to talk extensively with the people I am eating with (c) I am checked upon all evening and (d) I DON&#039;T HAVE TO DO THE DISHES. That&#039;s worth at LEAST 20%.

Confession: I once tipped less than 20% (12%) in college, because I asked the waiter to return my food (I ordered a veggie burger and was given a real one). She must have had a bad night because she through her pen down and slammed her notebook into my face (it didn&#039;t hurt so much as surprise me to be touched forcefully by the waitress). I don&#039;t pay my waitress to assault me. Looking back, I probably still should have given her at least 15%, because she was likely pushed to her breaking point by my drunken college counterparts at the table one over long before she ever took my order. At that time, you could pay for your food (but not tips) on your college card at this sit-down restaurant. She likely was not tipped at all by all of the disorderly men she had to care for. I might be a bit grouchy after that too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was raised to tip at 20%. For one, the math is easier than 18%. For another, we&#8217;ve always had waitstaff in the family, so we knew that people didn&#8217;t get the tips they deserved. And finally, the results of tipping well have always supported my continuing to do so. Usually, if you tip well, and I think especially if you don&#8217;t look like a person who should tip well, your waiter/waitress will remember you. For instance, I can afford to eat at a sit-down restaurant once about every 2 months. I like to go to this sushi restaurant when I can. I have shellfish allergies, and my waiter (whose name is Justin) knows all about them, so he always gets the chef to make me my favorites with different types of fish substituted for the shellfish. And, he always charges me less, because he says salmon and tuna cost the restaurant less than shrimp and crab. I started tipping him 20% but now I always round up a dollar or two, just because he is so attentive (plus, I am saving on what I would pay at another establishment when I ask to have the shellfish substituted&#8230;that money may as well go to the guy getting me the deal). </p>
<p>And for those of you thinking that only the 1% (or top 50% or whatever) can afford to tip at 20%, I am a graduate student. Because I am in health-related research, I am fortunate enough to make a small living stipend and have my tuition paid for, but it&#8217;s not like I&#8217;m making starting salary for a position in my field that I could garner after my undergraduate education. But, I budget my groceries well, don&#8217;t use credit cards so that I don&#8217;t incur interest on my purchases, and when I go to a restaurant, I tip with someone like me in mind&#8211;someone who works a lot of hours and doesn&#8217;t make minimum wage when it&#8217;s divided up. Make no mistake, most discoveries are made by graduate students and post-doctoral researchers, but it&#8217;s the big boss who gets the credit because his writing funds the lab. For their education level, post-doctoral researchers are probably the least well-paid individuals on the planet, but they do it because they love it. When I see a waiter/waitress who is truly attentive, I like to believe that they like to make my night out really hassle free, and I like for them to get paid for doing so. After all, it&#8217;s one night where (a) I do nothing to prepare the food (b) I get to talk extensively with the people I am eating with (c) I am checked upon all evening and (d) I DON&#8217;T HAVE TO DO THE DISHES. That&#8217;s worth at LEAST 20%.</p>
<p>Confession: I once tipped less than 20% (12%) in college, because I asked the waiter to return my food (I ordered a veggie burger and was given a real one). She must have had a bad night because she through her pen down and slammed her notebook into my face (it didn&#8217;t hurt so much as surprise me to be touched forcefully by the waitress). I don&#8217;t pay my waitress to assault me. Looking back, I probably still should have given her at least 15%, because she was likely pushed to her breaking point by my drunken college counterparts at the table one over long before she ever took my order. At that time, you could pay for your food (but not tips) on your college card at this sit-down restaurant. She likely was not tipped at all by all of the disorderly men she had to care for. I might be a bit grouchy after that too.</p>
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		<title>By: clpolk</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/12/02/guide-which-us-restaurants-pa.html#comment-1286775</link>
		<dc:creator>clpolk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Dec 2011 06:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=132576#comment-1286775</guid>
		<description>many good or neutral people utterly freak out and become irrationally angry when you point out that they&#039;re supporting a racist caste system in their workplace, and deny it&#039;s happening even though it plainly is happening, and all the denying and protestations of being &quot;nice&quot; don&#039;t change the truth of the result. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>many good or neutral people utterly freak out and become irrationally angry when you point out that they&#8217;re supporting a racist caste system in their workplace, and deny it&#8217;s happening even though it plainly is happening, and all the denying and protestations of being &#8220;nice&#8221; don&#8217;t change the truth of the result. </p>
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		<title>By: clpolk</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/12/02/guide-which-us-restaurants-pa.html#comment-1286774</link>
		<dc:creator>clpolk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Dec 2011 06:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=132576#comment-1286774</guid>
		<description>do you *honestly* think that&#039;s how it works? I like your world. I wish it was mine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>do you *honestly* think that&#8217;s how it works? I like your world. I wish it was mine.</p>
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		<title>By: clpolk</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/12/02/guide-which-us-restaurants-pa.html#comment-1286773</link>
		<dc:creator>clpolk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Dec 2011 06:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=132576#comment-1286773</guid>
		<description>If you can&#039;t afford to tip you can&#039;t afford to eat out, and please don&#039;t imagine otherwise. I suggest groceries and gojee.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you can&#8217;t afford to tip you can&#8217;t afford to eat out, and please don&#8217;t imagine otherwise. I suggest groceries and gojee.com</p>
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		<title>By: Stephan Zielinski</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/12/02/guide-which-us-restaurants-pa.html#comment-1286537</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephan Zielinski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Dec 2011 17:58:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=132576#comment-1286537</guid>
		<description>(I&#039;m experiencing the same sort of can-only-reply-to-certain-posts thing...)

I absolutely agree that the anecdotes we&#039;re seeing in these comments constitute good information to have.  Thing is, they&#039;re not coming from ROC.  All I see from ROC is a survey including notes about inequities but not including specifics about where they are, and a &quot;guide&quot; that names specific places but isn&#039;t based on questioning workers about how things are in those places.  (Except inasmuch as management counts as a kind of worker, and ROC asked management to provide them with information about their organization as a whole.)  Given that, the guide does not tell &quot;whether the restaurant has a policy of limiting women, immigrants and people of color to lower-paid `back of the house&#039; jobs.&quot;

This is not for lack of trying to imply that it does.  The guide notes that occupational segregation exists in the industry, and then has a column in its table for &quot;Opportunities for advancement&quot;-- but that column is based not on asking workers about their experiences in the corresponding organization, but on this criterion: &quot;A restaurant receives an upward mobility symbol in this category if 50% or more of its current employees have moved up in position. If the restaurant has not provided at least 50% of its employees a promotion, it has a 0 listed.&quot;  50% is a high number; a place with a broad and shallow organizational structure will have over 50% of its employees in the bottom echelon, and so couldn&#039;t achieve this criterion even if ALL its higher-ranked workers had been promoted from within.  (And of course, many people advance in their careers by switching workplaces.  For instance, a line cook might be ready to become a sous chef well before an opening for another sous chef exists in the line cook&#039;s own workplace.  Rather than waiting an indeterminable amount of time, they jump to another place that does have such an opening, parting amiably.)  Hence, I fear presence or absence of that up-arrow icon is more likely to have to do with semantic weaseling about &quot;promotion&quot; than anything else-- for instance, counting going from trainee to regular employee as a &quot;promotion&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(I&#8217;m experiencing the same sort of can-only-reply-to-certain-posts thing&#8230;)</p>
<p>I absolutely agree that the anecdotes we&#8217;re seeing in these comments constitute good information to have.  Thing is, they&#8217;re not coming from ROC.  All I see from ROC is a survey including notes about inequities but not including specifics about where they are, and a &#8220;guide&#8221; that names specific places but isn&#8217;t based on questioning workers about how things are in those places.  (Except inasmuch as management counts as a kind of worker, and ROC asked management to provide them with information about their organization as a whole.)  Given that, the guide does not tell &#8220;whether the restaurant has a policy of limiting women, immigrants and people of color to lower-paid `back of the house&#8217; jobs.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is not for lack of trying to imply that it does.  The guide notes that occupational segregation exists in the industry, and then has a column in its table for &#8220;Opportunities for advancement&#8221;&#8211; but that column is based not on asking workers about their experiences in the corresponding organization, but on this criterion: &#8220;A restaurant receives an upward mobility symbol in this category if 50% or more of its current employees have moved up in position. If the restaurant has not provided at least 50% of its employees a promotion, it has a 0 listed.&#8221;  50% is a high number; a place with a broad and shallow organizational structure will have over 50% of its employees in the bottom echelon, and so couldn&#8217;t achieve this criterion even if ALL its higher-ranked workers had been promoted from within.  (And of course, many people advance in their careers by switching workplaces.  For instance, a line cook might be ready to become a sous chef well before an opening for another sous chef exists in the line cook&#8217;s own workplace.  Rather than waiting an indeterminable amount of time, they jump to another place that does have such an opening, parting amiably.)  Hence, I fear presence or absence of that up-arrow icon is more likely to have to do with semantic weaseling about &#8220;promotion&#8221; than anything else&#8211; for instance, counting going from trainee to regular employee as a &#8220;promotion&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: nautodidact</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/12/02/guide-which-us-restaurants-pa.html#comment-1286514</link>
		<dc:creator>nautodidact</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Dec 2011 16:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=132576#comment-1286514</guid>
		<description>5-10 minutes of service.... plus, setting up the restaurant to open, then to close, cleaning and resetting the table you ate at, polishing the silverware and folding the napkins you used, keeping all the little stuff like sugar and ketchup and salt and pepper filled etc. I always hate the thoughtless &quot;well they only worked for like 5 minutes&quot; argument. 

Also please consider that serving tables is at best uneven employment by nature. While you might have a 4 table section it won&#039;t stay full they whole night, and you have to count on people unaccustomed to the dining experience etc. The bottom line is, %18-20 is PART OF THE PRICE of the meal. You are paying for the service of not having to care for yourself for a meal. The price of the meal is the price of the food plus the inherent price of the service.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>5-10 minutes of service&#8230;. plus, setting up the restaurant to open, then to close, cleaning and resetting the table you ate at, polishing the silverware and folding the napkins you used, keeping all the little stuff like sugar and ketchup and salt and pepper filled etc. I always hate the thoughtless &#8220;well they only worked for like 5 minutes&#8221; argument. </p>
<p>Also please consider that serving tables is at best uneven employment by nature. While you might have a 4 table section it won&#8217;t stay full they whole night, and you have to count on people unaccustomed to the dining experience etc. The bottom line is, %18-20 is PART OF THE PRICE of the meal. You are paying for the service of not having to care for yourself for a meal. The price of the meal is the price of the food plus the inherent price of the service.</p>
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		<title>By: retepslluerb</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/12/02/guide-which-us-restaurants-pa.html#comment-1286491</link>
		<dc:creator>retepslluerb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Dec 2011 15:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=132576#comment-1286491</guid>
		<description>I read his posts a little different and was kinda confused. 

Of course, I never paid for a crappy meal, either - the few times I was served anything like that, I got treated by people who wouldn&#039;t know a gourmet meal from a Big Mac. (And I do not refer to Big Mac - those can come in great and crappy alike.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read his posts a little different and was kinda confused. </p>
<p>Of course, I never paid for a crappy meal, either &#8211; the few times I was served anything like that, I got treated by people who wouldn&#8217;t know a gourmet meal from a Big Mac. (And I do not refer to Big Mac &#8211; those can come in great and crappy alike.)</p>
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		<title>By: penguinchris</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/12/02/guide-which-us-restaurants-pa.html#comment-1286473</link>
		<dc:creator>penguinchris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Dec 2011 15:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=132576#comment-1286473</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m always interested in this argument (and make no mistake, it is always an argument) because of well-reasoned comments like yours. And I agree with you, that under the conditions as they exist today, one should tip waiters and other service personnel. 

But - I don&#039;t believe that, fundamentally, people in these service jobs should be tipped. I think they should be paid a decent wage to begin with - the difference being passed on to the customer, of course. That&#039;s what this argument boils down to - nobody (I hope) thinks that wait staff shouldn&#039;t be paid a decent wage, and no one thinks the customer shouldn&#039;t pay for it (I mean,  how else would it work). But why is the customer responsible for determining what that decent wage should be?

I get that this gives some power to the customer - you can adjust your tip depending on how good the service is. But it seems to me that when people receive bad tips, they don&#039;t think it&#039;s because they gave bad service, they think it&#039;s because the customers are douchebags. People who are &quot;supposed&quot; to get tips feel entitled and lose sight of what tips are supposed to be for. Far more effective would be a system where, instead, the thing to do if you get bad service is to talk to the manager. 

The most pleasant service people to deal with tend to be those who are well-paid and who don&#039;t accept tips and don&#039;t receive commissions. Places with such policies (including food places) are the places I&#039;m most likely to spend my money. The tip-based system is, in my view, way outdated - and it&#039;s miserable for &lt;i&gt;all involved parties!&lt;/i&gt;

And those service people who are in a position to occasionally get huge tips? Even if tips were no longer considered compulsory, there will still be huge tips given for truly exceptional service, or as a form of bribery (like tipping the bartender so you get good service later when the bar gets more crowded).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m always interested in this argument (and make no mistake, it is always an argument) because of well-reasoned comments like yours. And I agree with you, that under the conditions as they exist today, one should tip waiters and other service personnel. </p>
<p>But &#8211; I don&#8217;t believe that, fundamentally, people in these service jobs should be tipped. I think they should be paid a decent wage to begin with &#8211; the difference being passed on to the customer, of course. That&#8217;s what this argument boils down to &#8211; nobody (I hope) thinks that wait staff shouldn&#8217;t be paid a decent wage, and no one thinks the customer shouldn&#8217;t pay for it (I mean,  how else would it work). But why is the customer responsible for determining what that decent wage should be?</p>
<p>I get that this gives some power to the customer &#8211; you can adjust your tip depending on how good the service is. But it seems to me that when people receive bad tips, they don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s because they gave bad service, they think it&#8217;s because the customers are douchebags. People who are &#8220;supposed&#8221; to get tips feel entitled and lose sight of what tips are supposed to be for. Far more effective would be a system where, instead, the thing to do if you get bad service is to talk to the manager. </p>
<p>The most pleasant service people to deal with tend to be those who are well-paid and who don&#8217;t accept tips and don&#8217;t receive commissions. Places with such policies (including food places) are the places I&#8217;m most likely to spend my money. The tip-based system is, in my view, way outdated &#8211; and it&#8217;s miserable for <i>all involved parties!</i></p>
<p>And those service people who are in a position to occasionally get huge tips? Even if tips were no longer considered compulsory, there will still be huge tips given for truly exceptional service, or as a form of bribery (like tipping the bartender so you get good service later when the bar gets more crowded).</p>
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		<title>By: Rose M. Welch</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/12/02/guide-which-us-restaurants-pa.html#comment-1286454</link>
		<dc:creator>Rose M. Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Dec 2011 13:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=132576#comment-1286454</guid>
		<description>Exactly my point. Just because it&#039;s what is supposed to happen doesn&#039;t mean that&#039;s what actually happens.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Exactly my point. Just because it&#8217;s what is supposed to happen doesn&#8217;t mean that&#8217;s what actually happens.</p>
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		<title>By: John Nixdorf</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/12/02/guide-which-us-restaurants-pa.html#comment-1286451</link>
		<dc:creator>John Nixdorf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Dec 2011 13:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=132576#comment-1286451</guid>
		<description>&quot;you get an x break when you work y hours&quot; I&#039;ve never *ever* worked anywhere they actually followed this one. I mean, I know it exists, I&#039;ve just never seen it applied. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;you get an x break when you work y hours&#8221; I&#8217;ve never *ever* worked anywhere they actually followed this one. I mean, I know it exists, I&#8217;ve just never seen it applied. </p>
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		<title>By: John Nixdorf</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/12/02/guide-which-us-restaurants-pa.html#comment-1286449</link>
		<dc:creator>John Nixdorf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Dec 2011 13:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=132576#comment-1286449</guid>
		<description>Me and my wife always try to tip pretty heavily. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Me and my wife always try to tip pretty heavily. </p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Rose M. Welch</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/12/02/guide-which-us-restaurants-pa.html#comment-1286406</link>
		<dc:creator>Rose M. Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Dec 2011 09:49:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=132576#comment-1286406</guid>
		<description>It won&#039;t let me reply to you, so I&#039;m replying to me.

You said: &lt;i&gt;If anyone anywhere has evidence...&lt;/i&gt;

Not: &quot; If this brochure presents any evidence.&quot;

If you want more evidence, peruse this thread, where people have been relating their lived experiences. Ignoring this information because people who do studies don&#039;t give a crap about minority dish washers is, at a minimum, rude.      

&lt;i&gt;Sick leave is, as they note, a public health issue, and a potentially serious one-- but it&#039;s not a discrimination issue.&lt;/i&gt;

My comment was in response to your claim that they had not questioned workers.

&lt;i&gt;From the anecdotes I&#039;ve heard... we need evidence...&lt;/i&gt;

Anecdotes, more properly known as testimonies, are considered evidence under the law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It won&#8217;t let me reply to you, so I&#8217;m replying to me.</p>
<p>You said: <i>If anyone anywhere has evidence&#8230;</i></p>
<p>Not: &#8221; If this brochure presents any evidence.&#8221;</p>
<p>If you want more evidence, peruse this thread, where people have been relating their lived experiences. Ignoring this information because people who do studies don&#8217;t give a crap about minority dish washers is, at a minimum, rude.      </p>
<p><i>Sick leave is, as they note, a public health issue, and a potentially serious one&#8211; but it&#8217;s not a discrimination issue.</i></p>
<p>My comment was in response to your claim that they had not questioned workers.</p>
<p><i>From the anecdotes I&#8217;ve heard&#8230; we need evidence&#8230;</i></p>
<p>Anecdotes, more properly known as testimonies, are considered evidence under the law.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephan Zielinski</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/12/02/guide-which-us-restaurants-pa.html#comment-1286402</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephan Zielinski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Dec 2011 09:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=132576#comment-1286402</guid>
		<description>Those are general statements about the industry, apparently drawn from some of ROC&#039;s previous work: http://rocunited.org/research-resources/reports/2011-behind-the-kitchen-door-multi-site-study/ .  Unfortunately, even if we figure the survey reflects reality well, they don&#039;t serve to identify any particular restaurant or restaurant chain as practicing discrimination.  (Sick leave is, as they note, a public health issue, and a potentially serious one-- but it&#039;s not a discrimination issue.)

There&#039;s no doubt but that discrimination is taking place; discrimination takes place in all industries.  From the anecdotes I&#039;ve heard, I&#039;d expect discrimination to be particularly common in the restaurant/hospitality fields.  But when it comes to identifying villains, we need specifics.  Further, we need evidence of these specifics.  We have to (I argue) make sure the alleged villains really are the villainous ones-- lest we inadvertently drive neutrals or good guys out of business, while continuing to patronize the true villains and thus aiding them to prosper.

This is a hard problem; we&#039;re talking about determining whether or not an organization is doing something that&#039;s generally held to be immoral, and is definitely held to be illegal.  But that this is a hard problem means we have to be more careful, not less.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those are general statements about the industry, apparently drawn from some of ROC&#8217;s previous work: http://rocunited.org/research-resources/reports/2011-behind-the-kitchen-door-multi-site-study/ .  Unfortunately, even if we figure the survey reflects reality well, they don&#8217;t serve to identify any particular restaurant or restaurant chain as practicing discrimination.  (Sick leave is, as they note, a public health issue, and a potentially serious one&#8211; but it&#8217;s not a discrimination issue.)</p>
<p>There&#8217;s no doubt but that discrimination is taking place; discrimination takes place in all industries.  From the anecdotes I&#8217;ve heard, I&#8217;d expect discrimination to be particularly common in the restaurant/hospitality fields.  But when it comes to identifying villains, we need specifics.  Further, we need evidence of these specifics.  We have to (I argue) make sure the alleged villains really are the villainous ones&#8211; lest we inadvertently drive neutrals or good guys out of business, while continuing to patronize the true villains and thus aiding them to prosper.</p>
<p>This is a hard problem; we&#8217;re talking about determining whether or not an organization is doing something that&#8217;s generally held to be immoral, and is definitely held to be illegal.  But that this is a hard problem means we have to be more careful, not less.</p>
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		<title>By: adamnvillani</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/12/02/guide-which-us-restaurants-pa.html#comment-1286401</link>
		<dc:creator>adamnvillani</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Dec 2011 09:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=132576#comment-1286401</guid>
		<description>It seems like it would be a helpful addition to, for a future edition, add a table showing the minimum wage laws in different states. In many western states, at least, servers are guaranteed minimum wage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems like it would be a helpful addition to, for a future edition, add a table showing the minimum wage laws in different states. In many western states, at least, servers are guaranteed minimum wage.</p>
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		<title>By: Rose M. Welch</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/12/02/guide-which-us-restaurants-pa.html#comment-1286380</link>
		<dc:creator>Rose M. Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Dec 2011 07:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=132576#comment-1286380</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;NO PAID SICK LEAVE 90% of the more than 4,300 restaurant workers surveyed by the Restaurant Opportunities Center (ROC) report not having paid sick leave, and two-thirds report cooking, preparing, and serving food while sick, making sick leave for restaurant workers not only a worker rights issue but a pressing concern in public health!

OCCUPATIONAL SEGREGATION Women, immigrants, and people of color hold lower-paying positions in the industry, and do not have many opportunities to move up the ladder. Among the 4,300 workers surveyed, we found a $4 wage gap between white workers and workers of color, and 73% reported not receiving regular promotions on the job.&lt;/i&gt;

4,300 restaurant workers who were asked about their sick leave and segregation disagree with you.

It makes sense to ask restaurants about their written policies directly, and then to compare that to how workers report that things actually work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>NO PAID SICK LEAVE 90% of the more than 4,300 restaurant workers surveyed by the Restaurant Opportunities Center (ROC) report not having paid sick leave, and two-thirds report cooking, preparing, and serving food while sick, making sick leave for restaurant workers not only a worker rights issue but a pressing concern in public health!</p>
<p>OCCUPATIONAL SEGREGATION Women, immigrants, and people of color hold lower-paying positions in the industry, and do not have many opportunities to move up the ladder. Among the 4,300 workers surveyed, we found a $4 wage gap between white workers and workers of color, and 73% reported not receiving regular promotions on the job.</i></p>
<p>4,300 restaurant workers who were asked about their sick leave and segregation disagree with you.</p>
<p>It makes sense to ask restaurants about their written policies directly, and then to compare that to how workers report that things actually work.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephan Zielinski</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/12/02/guide-which-us-restaurants-pa.html#comment-1286377</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephan Zielinski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Dec 2011 07:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=132576#comment-1286377</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t believe that&#039;s the case.  Looking at page 4 of the guide, they&#039;re not claiming to have undertaken a general survey of employees, but rather to have asked the restaurants for data directly: &quot;Working with students from Tulane University and the University of California at Los Angeles,* we asked restaurants about their practices with regard to: a) wages for tipped and non-tipped workers; b) paid sick leave and other benefits; and c) opportunities for workers to move up the ladder.  We asked this information from all of our ‘high road’ restaurant partners in our eight current affiliate cities and from the top 150 highest revenue- grossing restaurants in America. . . . Some restaurants did not provide us with all requested information.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t believe that&#8217;s the case.  Looking at page 4 of the guide, they&#8217;re not claiming to have undertaken a general survey of employees, but rather to have asked the restaurants for data directly: &#8220;Working with students from Tulane University and the University of California at Los Angeles,* we asked restaurants about their practices with regard to: a) wages for tipped and non-tipped workers; b) paid sick leave and other benefits; and c) opportunities for workers to move up the ladder.  We asked this information from all of our ‘high road’ restaurant partners in our eight current affiliate cities and from the top 150 highest revenue- grossing restaurants in America. . . . Some restaurants did not provide us with all requested information.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Rose M. Welch</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/12/02/guide-which-us-restaurants-pa.html#comment-1286352</link>
		<dc:creator>Rose M. Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Dec 2011 05:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=132576#comment-1286352</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt; If anyone anywhere has evidence...&lt;/i&gt;

You mean evidence like surveying workers from various establishments? Because that&#039;s exactly what they&#039;ve done.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i> If anyone anywhere has evidence&#8230;</i></p>
<p>You mean evidence like surveying workers from various establishments? Because that&#8217;s exactly what they&#8217;ve done.</p>
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		<title>By: Rose M. Welch</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/12/02/guide-which-us-restaurants-pa.html#comment-1286351</link>
		<dc:creator>Rose M. Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Dec 2011 05:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=132576#comment-1286351</guid>
		<description>He&#039;s also leaving out the hours spent doing sidework with no tables and no tips, and the taxes that servers must pay on tips.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He&#8217;s also leaving out the hours spent doing sidework with no tables and no tips, and the taxes that servers must pay on tips.</p>
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		<title>By: Melinda VanLone</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/12/02/guide-which-us-restaurants-pa.html#comment-1286350</link>
		<dc:creator>Melinda VanLone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Dec 2011 05:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=132576#comment-1286350</guid>
		<description>Wow those tips are horrible! I made more than that a shift working as a waitress in a truck stop. A typical shift for me was about $150 in tips but could be more if it was a busy night like Friday or Saturday. The slow nights were $75 ish. I never did anything like 1k in a shift but I figured the ritzy steak houses must be given what I made. Still think it&#039;s crap, the tip sharing idea. I totally agree...the customer thinks YOU are getting the money. What you choose to do with it is up to you, but you are taxed on the assumption that you got it, not a tip jar.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow those tips are horrible! I made more than that a shift working as a waitress in a truck stop. A typical shift for me was about $150 in tips but could be more if it was a busy night like Friday or Saturday. The slow nights were $75 ish. I never did anything like 1k in a shift but I figured the ritzy steak houses must be given what I made. Still think it&#8217;s crap, the tip sharing idea. I totally agree&#8230;the customer thinks YOU are getting the money. What you choose to do with it is up to you, but you are taxed on the assumption that you got it, not a tip jar.</p>
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		<title>By: Rose M. Welch</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/12/02/guide-which-us-restaurants-pa.html#comment-1286349</link>
		<dc:creator>Rose M. Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Dec 2011 05:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=132576#comment-1286349</guid>
		<description>Servers usually complete your plate as well, in addition to completing a whole host of side work that you don&#039;t see, because it&#039;s done when they&#039;re done waiting tables. Sidework includes cleaning and refilling everything on your table, cleaning your table and booth, vacuuming, wrapping silverware, cleaning the kitchen, cleaning and refilling the salad bar, making new coffee, fixing the soda machine, cleaning said beverage machines... I could go on for hours.

At the end of the day, I agree that the tip system needs to go away. Forever. The employer needs to pay the employee, and the customer needs to pay the business a fair price for their products and services.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Servers usually complete your plate as well, in addition to completing a whole host of side work that you don&#8217;t see, because it&#8217;s done when they&#8217;re done waiting tables. Sidework includes cleaning and refilling everything on your table, cleaning your table and booth, vacuuming, wrapping silverware, cleaning the kitchen, cleaning and refilling the salad bar, making new coffee, fixing the soda machine, cleaning said beverage machines&#8230; I could go on for hours.</p>
<p>At the end of the day, I agree that the tip system needs to go away. Forever. The employer needs to pay the employee, and the customer needs to pay the business a fair price for their products and services.</p>
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		<title>By: Rose M. Welch</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/12/02/guide-which-us-restaurants-pa.html#comment-1286346</link>
		<dc:creator>Rose M. Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Dec 2011 05:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=132576#comment-1286346</guid>
		<description>This is true in many states. Also true: You can&#039;t be fired for refusing to have sex with your boss, you get an x break when you work y hours, and employers can&#039;t discriminate based on age, race, or apparent gender when hiring.

Yet all of these laws are broken more often than not.      </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is true in many states. Also true: You can&#8217;t be fired for refusing to have sex with your boss, you get an x break when you work y hours, and employers can&#8217;t discriminate based on age, race, or apparent gender when hiring.</p>
<p>Yet all of these laws are broken more often than not.      </p>
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		<title>By: Rose M. Welch</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/12/02/guide-which-us-restaurants-pa.html#comment-1286344</link>
		<dc:creator>Rose M. Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Dec 2011 05:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=132576#comment-1286344</guid>
		<description>No, telling them is good. Not tipping the $2.13 worker based on the incompetence of the $11.00 cook is taking it out on them.

On the other hand, it&#039;s not your job to tip for a crappy meal, or to make sure that the wait staff makes a living wage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, telling them is good. Not tipping the $2.13 worker based on the incompetence of the $11.00 cook is taking it out on them.</p>
<p>On the other hand, it&#8217;s not your job to tip for a crappy meal, or to make sure that the wait staff makes a living wage.</p>
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		<title>By: Rose M. Welch</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/12/02/guide-which-us-restaurants-pa.html#comment-1286343</link>
		<dc:creator>Rose M. Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Dec 2011 05:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=132576#comment-1286343</guid>
		<description>My God, yes. I can&#039;t tell you how many times I went to work with a cold or the flu. Even when I had pink eye. I just put on a pirate patch and pretended it was because of a vaguely related dinner promotion that we were running. The other waitstaff passed around strep like mad, although I never got it. (I seem to be immune.) My daughter got it and several of my regular customers did, as well. It&#039;s just insane, the number of people that we probably made ill because we couldn&#039;t afford to stay home.

And before people start talking about how a day&#039;s wages aren&#039;t that much, the deal is that the common restaurant policy is that you can&#039;t call in without a doctor&#039;s note, which you can&#039;t get without a doctor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My God, yes. I can&#8217;t tell you how many times I went to work with a cold or the flu. Even when I had pink eye. I just put on a pirate patch and pretended it was because of a vaguely related dinner promotion that we were running. The other waitstaff passed around strep like mad, although I never got it. (I seem to be immune.) My daughter got it and several of my regular customers did, as well. It&#8217;s just insane, the number of people that we probably made ill because we couldn&#8217;t afford to stay home.</p>
<p>And before people start talking about how a day&#8217;s wages aren&#8217;t that much, the deal is that the common restaurant policy is that you can&#8217;t call in without a doctor&#8217;s note, which you can&#8217;t get without a doctor.</p>
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		<title>By: Rose M. Welch</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/12/02/guide-which-us-restaurants-pa.html#comment-1286340</link>
		<dc:creator>Rose M. Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Dec 2011 05:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=132576#comment-1286340</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I&#039;m pretty sure that according to Georgia state law, if your $2.13 + tips don&#039;t equal minimum wage for the hours you worked at the end of the night, your employer is legally required to pay you the difference.&lt;/i&gt;

This is true in many states. Also true: You can&#039;t be fired for refusing to have sex with your boss, you get an &lt;i&gt;x&lt;/i&gt; break when you work &lt;i&gt;y&lt;/i&gt; hours, employers can&#039;t discriminate based on age, race, or apparent gender when hiring.

Yet all of these laws are broken more often than not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I&#8217;m pretty sure that according to Georgia state law, if your $2.13 + tips don&#8217;t equal minimum wage for the hours you worked at the end of the night, your employer is legally required to pay you the difference.</i></p>
<p>This is true in many states. Also true: You can&#8217;t be fired for refusing to have sex with your boss, you get an <i>x</i> break when you work <i>y</i> hours, employers can&#8217;t discriminate based on age, race, or apparent gender when hiring.</p>
<p>Yet all of these laws are broken more often than not.</p>
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		<title>By: Rose M. Welch</title>
		<link>http://boingboing.net/2011/12/02/guide-which-us-restaurants-pa.html#comment-1286337</link>
		<dc:creator>Rose M. Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Dec 2011 05:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boingboing.net/?p=132576#comment-1286337</guid>
		<description>In some cases, that&#039;s already true. Many taxi drivers and exotic dancers, for instance, pay for the privilege to be there and hope that they make enough money to pay their costs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In some cases, that&#8217;s already true. Many taxi drivers and exotic dancers, for instance, pay for the privilege to be there and hope that they make enough money to pay their costs.</p>
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